Why is personal freedom worth more than perfect peace to God?

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Bahman said:
Well, you need to think of those things you have created in your life or judge and accept what other people have created in their own life. Then you are provided with something you can stand on, so hopefully you can see further. That is all which matter. Other than that we are simply consciousness.
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The basic idea of predestination is incompatible with the Church’s definition of free will. So you will have to explain better what you mean by “destiny”.
 
Bahman said:
This I agree.

Destiny is something which does exist yet you and only you can create it. You create it with each free decision you make.
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“Destiny” implies more of a final state for something by its nature. So whatever “destiny” you make yourself is not really “destiny”.
 
blase6 said:
“Destiny” implies more of a final state for something by its nature. So whatever “destiny” you make yourself is not really “destiny”.
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As far as you have the chance to make a free decision only. Your destiny is defined when you cannot make a free decision any longer.
 
blase6 said:
So, then what?
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Destiny is simply everything you are going to do and everything that is going to happen to you.

It is not a deterministic concept. Although it is in general treated like one.
 
ChainBreaker said:
Destiny is simply everything you are going to do and everything that is going to happen to you. . .
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That is how we are like gods, participating in the creation of our destiny.

This is very scary for us. I am not sure if such things are still studied of in university arts programs, but some decades ago I recall a sort of existentially oriented course on freedom, having to do with mankind’s propensity to run from it into totalitarianism or waste it on meaningless choices. We see this exemplified in the world today in the form of communism and Islamism on the one hand and consumerism on the other.
 
blase6 said:
I just don’t get it.

Our world is filled with suffering, and some people are or will be suffering eternally in Hell. And this is all because God allows it because he values personal freedom.

It is the usual argument in the problem of evil: God allows suffering but does not will it. Well, there is not a significant difference. For whatever reason, God would rather have the multitudes of suffering brought on by personal freedom, than for perfect peace without freedom.

What is it about freedom that Someone who we believe is all good, would allow evil simply for freedom’s sake?
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Okay you said God does not will suffering but allows it. Now how could God allow free, to do good or evil, but yet not allow someone to do evil? How could he give free will then?
 
davidv said:
God does wish to end suffering at the end of the world. It is called heaven. Do you want to be there?
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God wills it here, and it is possible. If we all obeyed God this world would not suffer. Suffering is because of sin.
 
tonyrey said:
Even those who hate God and want nothing to do with you?
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Those people are just “malfunctioning”. They could be fixed if God willed to do so. But he doesn’t because it matters more to him that they chose their own destiny.
 
blase6 said:
Those people are just “malfunctioning”. They could be fixed if God willed to do so. But he doesn’t because it matters more to him that they chose their own destiny.
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Not without taking back the gift of free will.

Since God is perfect in every way, the gift of free will is perfect. And since God is immutable, He cannot take back the gift.
 
davidv said:
Not without taking back the gift of free will.

Since God is perfect in every way, the gift of free will is perfect. And since God is immutable, He cannot take back the gift.
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Freedom is just “personal randomness”. I don’t want to get unlucky.
 
blase6 said:
Freedom is just “personal randomness”. I don’t want to get unlucky.
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Davidv is right, this is not free will. If this is what you conceive of for free will is no wonder you are having all these difficulties. Pray tell, how would I be free if all my actions are randomly determined? I would be just as unfree as if they were necessarily determined.

Free will flows directly from the rational intellect, in fact it is oftentimes referred to as the “rational appetite.” The intellect contemplates universal natures/truths, understands that they reflect particular goodness, and proposes them as objects of desire to the will. The only thing the will wills of necessity is universal goodness (i.e. God Himself, which is why the soul captivated by the Beatific Vision desires nothing else eternally), but since everything in our experience is a finite particular reflection of universal goodness, no thing necessitates our will. You seek things freely because your intellect has judged that they are good things to be sought, so your actions are determined by you because finite goodness does not necessitate your will. That is precisely what it means to be free. Whether you have judged rightly or not is another matter.
 
balto said:
Davidv is right, this is not free will. If this is what you conceive of for free will is no wonder you are having all these difficulties. Pray tell, how would I be free if all my actions are randomly determined? I would be just as unfree as if they were necessarily determined.
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This is the crux of the “dilemma of determinism”.
Free will flows directly from the rational intellect, in fact it is oftentimes referred to as the “rational appetite.” The intellect contemplates universal natures/truths, understands that they reflect particular goodness, and proposes them as objects of desire to the will. The only thing the will wills of necessity is universal goodness (i.e. God Himself, which is why the soul captivated by the Beatific Vision desires nothing else eternally), but since everything in our experience is a finite particular reflection of universal goodness, no thing necessitates our will. You seek things freely because your intellect has judged that they are good things to be sought, so your actions are determined by you because finite goodness does not necessitate your will. That is precisely what it means to be free. Whether you have judged rightly or not is another matter.
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All of this then just sounds like unpredictability, which is also called randomness. Since I have no guarantee that I will ultimately choose God, then I will be uneasy about my future. I have looked beyond what people assume about having free will and see that an action which would ultimately be my responsibility doesn’t really exist. It is clearly either fate or chance.

Therefore I struggle to believe in freedom or a loving God.
 
blase6 said:
All of this then just sounds like unpredictability, which is also called randomness. Since I have no guarantee that I will ultimately choose God, then I will be uneasy about my future. I have looked beyond what people assume about having free will and see that an action which would ultimately be my responsibility doesn’t really exist. It is clearly either fate or chance.

Therefore I struggle to believe in freedom or a loving God.
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Maybe it is “unpredictable” if you are an outside observer. For instance, you don’t know what I am thinking so my actions may be unpredictable to you. But how are your own actions unpredictable? You know exactly why you do the things that you do. Why would you not have a guarantee that you will choose God? You choose God because you want and desire God, so you are either choosing God now or you are not.
 
balto said:
Maybe it is “unpredictable” if you are an outside observer. For instance, you don’t know what I am thinking so my actions may be unpredictable to you. But how are your own actions unpredictable? You know exactly why you do the things that you do. Why would you not have a guarantee that you will choose God? You choose God because you want and desire God, so you are either choosing God now or you are not.
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The problem is that I don’t really get to choose what I desire. I have the natural desire for God built in to me. So if I turn away and commit evil, then there is a flaw in my perception of goodness.

And sometimes I really don’t know why I act a certain way. Even if I am choosing God right now, I still might reject him later. So there is no guarantee.
 
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