Why is Peter considered the first "Pope", if it was James who Peter and Paul answered to?

[Mickey]

So how do you intepret Isaiah?

If it is Isaiah 22 you are referencing, I will provide St Augustine again for you.

[Peter] is not the only one among the disciples who is worthy of pasturing the Lord’s sheep. If Christ speaks only to one, it is to emphasize unity. Indeed, so that you may know that** it is the Church who has received the keys to the kingdom of heaven**, listen to what the Lord has said elsewhere to all the apostles: ’ Receive the Holy Spirit.’ And later, ‘Anyone whose sins you have forgiven, they are forgiven: anyone whose sins you retain, they are retained’ (Jn 20:22-23).
St Augustine, Sermo 295, 2-8.

**"**He has given, therefore, the keys to His Church, that whatsoever it should bind on earth might be bound in heaven, and whatsoever it should loose on earth might be loosed in heaven; that is to say, that whosoever in the Church should not believe that his sins are remitted, they should not be remitted to him; but that whosoever should believe and should repent, and turn from his sins, should be saved by the same faith and repentance on the ground of which he is received into the bosom of the Church."
The City of God, by St. Augustine

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In Revelation 3:7 Jesus quotes from Isaiah 22:22 and applies it to himself.

 

[YADA]

Please quote the exact chapter and verses you are referencing and I will search for the interpretation of the Church Fathers, and post it. I do not offer my own interpretations–that is a protestant invention. But please start a new thread. We have already gone far astray–and I am to blame for that also.

Isaiah speaks directly to the authority of office that was given to Peter and not to the other apostles …

Isaiah Chapter 22

On that day I will summon my servant Eliakim, son of Hilkiah; 21 I will clothe him with your robe, and gird him with your sash, and give over to him your authority. He shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah. 22 I will **place the key of the House of David on his shoulder; when he opens, no one shall shut, when he shuts, no one shall open. **23 I will fix him like a peg in a sure spot, to be a place of honor for his family;
24 On him shall hang all the glory of his family: descendants and offspring, all the little dishes, from bowls to jugs.

In this passage the evil Shebna [existing Rpime Minister] is being replaced by Eliakim, who will become the "father’ of the people and officer of the King … and even though he serves at the behest of the King - we know that ultimately it is God who chooses and God who replaces - because it is Isaiah who is speaking for God …

Jesus - similarly - appoints Peter to this leadership role in th New Jerusalem, the Church … not to all the apostles but to Peter - thouh later they are given a similar authority, they are not given the keys -

 

[YADA]

If it is Isaiah 22 you are referencing, I will provide St Augustine again for you.

[Peter] is not the only one among the disciples who is worthy of pasturing the Lord’s sheep. If Christ speaks only to one, it is to emphasize unity. Indeed, so that you may know that** it is the Church who has received the keys to the kingdom of heaven**, listen to what the Lord has said elsewhere to all the apostles: ’ Receive the Holy Spirit.’ And later, ‘Anyone whose sins you have forgiven, they are forgiven: anyone whose sins you retain, they are retained’ (Jn 20:22-23).
St Augustine, Sermo 295, 2-8.

**"**He has given, therefore, the keys to His Church, that whatsoever it should bind on earth might be bound in heaven, and whatsoever it should loose on earth might be loosed in heaven; that is to say, that whosoever in the Church should not believe that his sins are remitted, they should not be remitted to him; but that whosoever should believe and should repent, and turn from his sins, should be saved by the same faith and repentance on the ground of which he is received into the bosom of the Church."
The City of God, by St. Augustine

In Revelation 3:7 Jesus quotes from Isaiah 22:22 and applies it to himself.

And this assumes that Peter does not represent the Church [as the head of the Chruch he does so] … and as if St Augustine failed to recognize the office of the Bishop of Rome and Chair of Peter - which of course he did …

And the King [Jesus] appointing someone to act upon his behalf never takes away His own authority nor does he relinguish his own key … So I would say that JEsus is not quoting Isaiah and refering to Himself as only the deputy of some other King [Messiah] … no in Revelation when Jesus refers to his authority symbolized by the Key it is to His Kingly Authority not to the office of Prime Minister …

Jesus is not to be equated with Eliakim nor Peter … their roes are different …

Jesus is the fullfillent of the Davidic Kingdom … he is the perfection of David, Soloman, et al … Jesus is the Lordship/Kingship of God the Creator …

 

[Randy_Carson]

To atone for a triple denial.

Did Jesus breath on Peter at the same time as the other Apostles, and was Peter given the authority to forgive sins along with the other Apostles in John 20? Yes or no.

 

[Randy_Carson]

[Peter] is not the only one among the disciples who is worthy of pasturing the Lord’s sheep. If Christ speaks only to one, it is to emphasize unity. Indeed, so that you may know that it is the Church who has received the keys to the kingdom of heaven, listen to what the Lord has said elsewhere to all the apostles: ’ Receive the Holy Spirit.’ And later, ‘Anyone whose sins you have forgiven, they are forgiven: anyone whose sins you retain, they are retained’ (Jn 20:22-23).
St Augustine, Sermo 295, 2-8.

Well, if Augustine emphasizes the unity that comes as a result of the leadership of one man, why have the Orthodox not maintained that unity?

Mickey, get serious.

When one examines the course of history, it is not the Orthodox but the Catholic Church which has had the greatest impact on humanity.

The Lord told the disciples to make disciples of all nations.

The Orthodox have simply not done this, and though you have maintained Apostolic Succession and a valid priesthood, you simply have failed to demonstrate that you are the One Church of Jesus Christ.

I applaud your ethnic pride and zeal for your traditions, but the lack of fruit is telling.

 

[twb1621]

Those posts were streams of copied and pasted Scripture

 

[twb1621]

Those posts were streams of copied and pasted Scripture and Church Father quotes. I love Scripture and I love the writngs of the Church Fathers. If there was some point you were trying to make regarding the OP, I would be happy to attempt to respond.

I think the point was in answer to the question why was Peter considered the first Pope… The continued response was to provide credible quotes from historic documents verifying the continued primary authority of the Church over the church entirety, how that line of succession continued and that it continued up to and through the separation of west and east to present day which under a reasonable train of thought leads to the conclusion it was not the papacy that left the church but the majority of the church that remained under the papacy. As far as to say Rome became corrupt in some way that warranted the split, if God so declared the gates of hell would not prevail and the authoritative seat beginning with Peter was established by His (God’s) proclamation, how is it that many hundreds of years later God’s word no longer stood firm for the Church He provided the Holy Spirit as guidance? and Of course I cut and pasted, I am not that old to offer personal witness to these events. But you have verified my conclusion with your responses.

“Peter was pronounced blessed by the Lord…the duty of feeding the spiritual sheep of the Church under whose protecting shield, this Apostolic Church of his has NEVER turned away from the path of truth in ANY direction of ERROR, whose AUTHORITY, as that of the Prince of all the Apostles, the whole Catholic Church and the Ecumenical Synods have faithfully embraced…”
Agatho Pope,To Ecumenical Council VI at Constantinople,(A.D. 680),in NPNF2,XIV:328-339

“It was right indeed that he(Paul) should be anxious to see Peter; for he was the first among the apostles, and was entrusted by the Savior with the care of the churches.”
Ambrosiaster,Commentary on Galatians,PL 17:344 (A.D. 384),in SPP,62

" ‘Thou art Peter and upon this Rock I will build my Church’, Wherefore where Peter the Church is…"
Ambrose,Commentary on the Psalms,40:30 (AD 395),in DOP,184

“At length, after being tempted by the devil, Peter is set over the Church.”
Ambrose,Commentary on the Psalms,43:40(AD 397),in GILES,145

“…the chief of the disciples…the Lord accepted him, set him up as the foundation, called him the rock and structure of the church.”
Aphraates, De Paenitentibus Homily 7:15(A.D. 337),in SPP,58

“In order that he may show his power, God has endowed none of his disciples with gifts like Peter. But, having raised him with heavenly gifts, he has set him above all. And, as first disciple and greater among the brethren, he has shown, by the test of deeds, the power of the Spirit. The first to be called, he followed at once…The Saviour confided to this man, as some special trust, the whole universal Church, after having asked him three times ‘Lovest thou me?’. And he receive the world in charge…”
Asterius,Homily 8(A.D. 400),in GILES,145-146

Seeing as how you do not have any credible support to you claims against the previous posts I mentioned, I’ll stop here…

 

[Daniel_Keeran]

The question of the Lord’s triple inquiry of Peter: “Do you love me more…?”

The three challenges to Peter after the resurrection regarding his love for Jesus and command to shepherd in John chapter 21, follow and correspond to the three denials of Peter in chapter 18.

In Luke 22:31-34: “Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift you as wheat. But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.”
But he replied, “Lord, I am ready to go with you to prison and to death.”
Jesus answered, “I tell you, Peter, before the rooster crows today, you will deny three times that you know me.”

The term strengthen means to reassure the other apostles that the one who confessed that “Jesus is the Christ, Son of God” does indeed still believe what he confessed. It would be devastating for them to know of Peter’s denials, so Jesus wants him to strengthen their faith, to reassure them of the strength of his faith.

Only Peter denied Christ, so only Peter required this challenge, and there is no implication of his being appointed to be head of the church on earth. All of the apostles were shepherds.

 

[LionHeart777]

“He has given, therefore, the keys to His Church, that whatsoever it should bind on earth might be bound in heaven, and whatsoever it should loose on earth might be loosed in heaven; that is to say, that whosoever in the Church should not believe that his sins are remitted, they should not be remitted to him; but that whosoever should believe and should repent, and turn from his sins, should be saved by the same faith and repentance on the ground of which he is received into the bosom of the Church.”
The City of God, by St. Augustine

[emphasis mine]

I’m probably misundertsanding St. Augustine, but this sounds more like Protestant explanations of the “forgiv[ing]” and 'binding and loosing" authority given to the Apostles. He isn’t denying their authority, and by implication, a priests authority to absolve sins in the place of Jesus is he?

 

[dvdjs]

That would take a long history lesson. Do the homework yourself…
One left four. Four did not leave one…
Do your homework. .

This four vs.one idea is just nonsense.
It is absolutely untrue now. It was absolutely not true in 1054. Do some homework yourself.

 

[paul_c]

The question of the Lord’s triple inquiry of Peter: “Do you love me more…?”

The three challenges to Peter after the resurrection regarding his love for Jesus and command to shepherd in John chapter 21, follow and correspond to the three denials of Peter in chapter 18.

In Luke 22:31-34: “Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift you as wheat. But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.”
But he replied, “Lord, I am ready to go with you to prison and to death.”
Jesus answered, “I tell you, Peter, before the rooster crows today, you will deny three times that you know me.”

The term strengthen means to reassure the other apostles that the one who confessed that “Jesus is the Christ, Son of God” does indeed still believe what he confessed. It would be devastating for them to know of Peter’s denials, so Jesus wants him to strengthen their faith, to reassure them of the strength of his faith.

Only Peter denied Christ, so only Peter required this challenge, and there is no implication of his being appointed to be head of the church on earth. All of the apostles were shepherds.

Don’t you realize that Jesus is great enough and efficient enough to accomplish two things at once. He counteracts the threefold denial while at the same time, charging Peter with tending to the flock…

 

[Daniel_Keeran]

Don’t you realize that Jesus is great enough and efficient enough to accomplish two things at once. He counteracts the threefold denial while at the same time, charging Peter with tending to the flock…

I think Catholics read too much into “tending the flock” to make Peter the one and only to shepherd the flock. Peter was to be one of three presbyters in Jerusalem and not a singular bishop there or anywhere and in no sense head of the church on earth. John 21 simply does not say this at all.

 

[pedro22]

I can only give you the words of John 6 and hope you will take all into account within that chapter/passage. Is it what the text says?

If the bread and cup were **transformed into real flesh and blood **when Jesus spoke the words “my body” “my blood,” then **were they changed back **when he said “this fruit of the vine” before they drank it?

Will you or anyone respond to me about this?

Dan,
I don’t think anyone has responded to your question above. The answer is no, the precious blood did not turn back into wine. The “fruit of the vine” that Jesus said he would not drink refers to the 4th cup (also know as the “cup of consumation”) of the Passover seder meal. He was talking about the last cup of wine which he had not yet drank. The Eucharistic cup which Jesus and the apostles already drank from (see Mark 14:23) was the 3rd cup of the seder meal, which Paul identified as the “cup of blessing” (1 Cor 10:16).

To better understand this, read Scott Hahn’s article about the Fourth Cup:
catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9109fea1.asp

 

[paul_c]

I think Catholics read too much into “tending the flock” to make Peter the one and only to shepherd the flock. Peter was to be one of three presbyters in Jerusalem and not a singular bishop there or anywhere and in no sense head of the church on earth. John 21 simply does not say this at all.

Daniel,
Peter was shown to be the leader of the Church through words and actions. He was singled out from the other Apostles in numerous ways as we have outlined to you in this thread. Someone counted the biblical references to Peter in the New Testament and came out with 155 as opposed to 130 for all the other Apostles combined. Now why do you think that was? It was Peter’s story that all four gospels follow in parallel to the Passion story, Why do you think that was? Also Peter always speaks for the Apostles and makes all the decisions in Acts. Why do you think that was? And why do you think Paul chose Peter of all the Apostles to spend 15 days with at the beginning of his ministry? And why do you think there is 2000 years of Catholic tradition placing Peter at the head of the church? If James was really the head of the church, why wouldn’t Catholics recognize that?

Your counter to all these points is to deny that the Gospel accounts are explicit in naming Peter head of the church, but this is an unconvincing argument in light of all the others. I pray that the Holy Spirit will open your mind to the truth .

 

[Mickey]

Did Jesus breath on Peter at the same time as the other Apostles, and was Peter given the authority to forgive sins along with the other Apostles in John 20? Yes or no.

After you are forgiven of your sins in confession, do you still have to do your penance? Yes or no?

 

[Mickey]

St Augustine failed to recognize the office of the Bishop of Rome and Chair of Peter - which of course he did …

So you are saying St Augustine is mistaken?

And the King [Jesus] appointing someone to act upon his behalf never takes away His own authority nor does he relinguish his own key … So I would say that JEsus is not quoting Isaiah and refering to Himself as only the deputy of some other King [Messiah] … no in Revelation when Jesus refers to his authority symbolized by the Key it is to His Kingly Authority not to the office of Prime Minister

The Key in the Isaiah quote is singular—interesting.
Nevertheless, is this your odd interpretation, or are there Church Fathers that talk about this theory?

 

[Mickey]

Well, if Augustine emphasizes the unity that comes as a result of the leadership of one man, why have the Orthodox not maintained that unity?

The return of Rome to Holy Orthodoxy would be awesome for unity.

Mickey, get serious.

I am quite serious.

When one examines the course of history, it is not the Orthodox but the Catholic Church which has had the greatest impact on humanity.

Wrong again. When one examines history. One sees that the strength of an undivided Church and the unity of that undivided Church fought heresy and defined doctrine. When Rome split, innovations were introduced. The reformers were born and violent acts such as the inquisition and the sack of Constantinople ocurred. If you would like to start a thread about these things, feel free----you have hi-jacked the OP.

The Lord told the disciples to make disciples of all nations.

Amen.

The Orthodox have simply not done this, and though you have maintained Apostolic Succession and a valid priesthood, you simply have failed to demonstrate that you are the One Church of Jesus Christ.

Your continued spewing of insults shows that you have not much more to say.

I applaud your ethnic pride and zeal for your traditions, but the lack of fruit is telling.

Your continued insults has revealed the stench of rotten fruit.

 

[Mickey]

I think the point was in answer to the question why was Peter considered the first Pope…

He was not the first Pope, and you have yet to prove it. As I have stated, historians cannot show that he was bishop of Rome or Antioch. He was an Apostle–we know this. Your quotes show that St Peter was venerated as a great apostle–we know this. Your quotes also show that Rome was the capital of Christianity (when she was still Orthodox) and the bishop of Rome was highly respected–we know this.

 

[Mickey]

The three challenges to Peter after the resurrection regarding his love for Jesus and command to shepherd in John chapter 21, follow and correspond to the three denials of Peter in chapter 18.

Yes.

The term strengthen means to reassure the other apostles that the one who confessed that “Jesus is the Christ, Son of God” does indeed still believe what he confessed. It would be devastating for them to know of Peter’s denials, so Jesus wants him to strengthen their faith, to reassure them of the strength of his faith.

Amen.

Only Peter denied Christ, so only Peter required this challenge, and there is no implication of his being appointed to be head of the church on earth. All of the apostles were shepherds.

Indeed!

 

[Mickey]

This four vs.one idea is just nonsense.

It is not. Start a thread if you care to show otherwise.