Why is Peter considered the first "Pope", if it was James who Peter and Paul answered to?

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You want to believe the bread and cup change in substance. I want to believe the meaning is changed but not the substance. I say, “Lord we ask you to bless this bread for which we give thanks, that to us as Christians is the body of Christ that took on the sins of the world.” And so we discern the body of Christ.

Want to talk about was Peter regarded as the head of the church by Paul, John, James, Jude, and by Peter himself?
Yes, Peter was regarded as the head of the Church by Paul [hence his boast about challenging Peter to his face rgarding Peter’s hypocracy over not eating with gentiles].

Also John, James, Jude and Peter understood Jesus’s appointing Peter as the head of the Church …
 
Yes, Peter was regarded as the head of the Church by Paul [hence his boast about challenging Peter to his face rgarding Peter’s hypocracy over not eating with gentiles].

Also John, James, Jude and Peter understood Jesus’s appointing Peter as the head of the Church …
I don’t think Paul thought Peter was any more special than James and John as he names Peter second in a list of leaders after James.

Galatians 2
9 James, Peter and John, those reputed to be pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when **they recognized **the grace given to me. **They agreed **that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the Jews. 10 All **they asked **was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I was eager to do.

**Never at any time **did Paul ever refer to Peter as having any special title or office in the church. This is very significant in light of the Catholic claim of the Papacy’s being established by Christ in Matthew 16. Such a **central fundamental singular position **as head of the church, would have been referenced by somebody, especially Paul.

Why does this not end the debate?
 
I don’t think Paul thought Peter was any more special than James and John as he names Peter second in a list of leaders after James.

Galatians 2
9 James, Peter and John, those reputed to be pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when **they recognized **the grace given to me. **They agreed **that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the Jews. 10 All **they asked **was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I was eager to do.

**Never at any time **did Paul ever refer to Peter as having any special title or office in the church. This is very significant in light of the Catholic claim of the Papacy’s being established by Christ in Matthew 16. Such a **central fundamental singular position **as head of the church, would have been referenced by somebody, especially Paul.

Why does this not end the debate?
Because its not true. Have you read Galatians; Here is the key passage regarding Peter (translated Cephas here): Galatians 1: 11-19 for full context.
Now I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel preached by me is not of human origin. For I did not receive it from a human being, nor was I taught it, but it came through a revelation of Jesus Christ. For you heard of my former way of life in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it, and progressed in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries among my race, since I was even more a zealot for my ancestral traditions. But when (God), who from my mother’s womb had set me apart and called me through his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son to me, so that I might proclaim him to the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult flesh and blood, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; rather, I went into Arabia and then returned to Damascus. Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to confer with Cephas and remained with him for fifteen days. But I did not see any other of the apostles, only James the brother of the Lord.

Note who he conferred with: Peter, because he recognized his authority and he spent 15 days with him… He didn’t talk to anyone else except James and you can see that it was only passing.
 
You want to believe the bread and cup change in substance. I want to believe the meaning is changed but not the substance. I say, “Lord we ask you to bless this bread for which we give thanks, that to us as Christians is the body of Christ that took on the sins of the world.” And so we discern the body of Christ.

/QUOTE]

here’s what we believe, right out of the Catechism:

1373 “Christ Jesus, who died, yes, who was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who indeed intercedes for us,” is present in many ways to his Church:197 in his word, in his Church’s prayer, "where two or three are gathered in my name,"199 in the poor, the sick, and the imprisoned,199 in the sacraments of which he is the author, in the sacrifice of the Mass, and in the person of the minister. But “he is present . . . most especially in the Eucharistic species.”

1374 The mode of Christ’s presence under the Eucharistic species is unique. It raises the Eucharist above all the sacraments as "the perfection of the spiritual life and the end to which all the sacraments tend."201 In the most blessed sacrament of the Eucharist "the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ and, therefore, the whole Christ is truly, really, and substantially contained."202 “This presence is called ‘real’ - by which is not intended to exclude the other types of presence as if they could not be ‘real’ too, but because it is presence in the fullest sense: that is to say, it is a substantial presence by which Christ, God and man, makes himself wholly and entirely present.”

1375 It is by the conversion of the bread and wine into Christ’s body and blood that Christ becomes present in this sacrament. The Church Fathers strongly affirmed the faith of the Church in the efficacy of the Word of Christ and of the action of the Holy Spirit to bring about this conversion. Thus St. John Chrysostom declares:

It is not man that causes the things offered to become the Body and Blood of Christ, but he who was crucified for us, Christ himself. The priest, in the role of Christ, pronounces these words, but their power and grace are God’s. This is my body, he says. This word transforms the things offered.
And St. Ambrose says about this conversion:

Be convinced that this is not what nature has formed, but what the blessing has consecrated. The power of the blessing prevails over that of nature, because by the blessing nature itself is changed. . . . Could not Christ’s word, which can make from nothing what did not exist, change existing things into what they were not before? It is no less a feat to give things their original nature than to change their nature.

1376 The Council of Trent summarizes the Catholic faith by declaring: “Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation.”

1377 The Eucharistic presence of Christ begins at the moment of the consecration and endures as long as the Eucharistic species subsist. Christ is present whole and entire in each of the species and whole and entire in each of their parts, in such a way that the breaking of the bread does not divide Christ.
 
Because its not true. Have you read Galatians; Here is the key passage regarding Peter (translated Cephas here): Galatians 1: 11-19 for full context.
Now I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel preached by me is not of human origin. For I did not receive it from a human being, nor was I taught it, but it came through a revelation of Jesus Christ. For you heard of my former way of life in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it, and progressed in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries among my race, since I was even more a zealot for my ancestral traditions. But when (God), who from my mother’s womb had set me apart and called me through his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son to me, so that I might proclaim him to the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult flesh and blood, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; rather, I went into Arabia and then returned to Damascus. Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to confer with Cephas and remained with him for fifteen days. But I did not see any other of the apostles, only James the brother of the Lord.

Note who he conferred with: Peter, because he recognized his authority and he spent 15 days with him… He didn’t talk to anyone else except James and you can see that it was only passing.
Is this all? What terms in the above passage refer to Peter’s unique authority? Paul elsewhere acknowledges Peter as apostle to the Jews and he Paul as apostle to the Gentiles. But in no terms does Paul refer to Peter as head of the church in this or any other passage. Paul’s whole point is that his ministry was ordained by Jesus Christ himself, not by anyone else, certainly not Peter.

Look at the context here:

Galatians 1:16
I did not consult any man, 17nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went immediately into Arabia and later returned to Damascus. 18Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get **acquainted with **Peter and stayed with him fifteen days. 19 I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord’s brother.

Then in Galatians 2
6As for those who seemed to be important—whatever they were makes no difference to me; God does not judge by external appearance—those men added nothing to my message. 7On the contrary, they saw that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the Gentiles,just as Peter had been to the Jews.8For God, who was at work in the ministry of Peter as an apostle to the Jews, was also at work in my ministry as an apostle to the Gentiles. 9James, Peter and John, those reputed to be pillars

11When **Peter came **to Antioch, **I opposed him **to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. 12Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.

From the above it is clear that in Paul’s view Peter has no special position as head of the church, and this is not the only one passage where we would expect such a reference if true.
 
Not sure if this has been said already:

Short answer is that James was the bishop of Jerusalem - the first. As such, he had authority and responsibility for all that goes on in his diocese (even before it was ever termed as such). Even today, the Pope technically asks to speak or visit another bishop’s diocese, although any bishop would be hard pressed to refuse a papal visit. James was simply exercising his authority, after all, bishops are directly responsible for the well being of all souls in their care.

A good example of the kind of authority bishops have yet to day might be that of when Bishop Morlino of the Diocese of Madison refused ex-Bishop Weakland’s request to speak within his diocese (on the matter of female ordination, if I remember correctly).
 
I don’t think Paul thought Peter was any more special than James and John as he names Peter second in a list of leaders after James.

Galatians 2
9 James, Peter and John, those reputed to be pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when **they recognized **the grace given to me. **They agreed **that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the Jews. 10 All **they asked **was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I was eager to do.

**Never at any time **did Paul ever refer to Peter as having any special title or office in the church. This is very significant in light of the Catholic claim of the Papacy’s being established by Christ in Matthew 16. Such a **central fundamental singular position **as head of the church, would have been referenced by somebody, especially Paul.

Why does this not end the debate?
Because you selectively take scriptures quotes in isolation and not as a whole … and then force upon them your preconcieved [outcome based] interpretation and declare it the Truth …

the arrogance of this stance … your interpretation is right any other is wrong … as if not any other equally inspired by the Holy Spirit individual ever had a different take … I realize that your target is the “Church” and how apostate it is … how we catholics never read and interpret scripture for ourselves … Arrogance to the Nth degree …

The NT Scriptures come forth from the Church, the Church existed before they did … the NT scriptures are incapable [and even so state within them] of holding all that Jesus taught, said and did …

The Scriptures never claim to be the sole source and authority … in fact the Scriptures tell us that the Church [a living breathing organization founded upon Peter and provided a structure to last through the centuries] is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth …

that early “Church” did not consist of every Christian reading the OT and any available early written Christian document they could get their hands on for themselves determining what was Truth, who was in charge, who was not …

Paul wrote letters discussing the ‘problems’ developing in the early Christian communities … we do not have his letters to Churches that we doing everything perfectly … Not every problem was addressed in Paul’s day … hence later Church eadership had to deal with those who denied the divinity of Christ … the humanity of Christ and how is God - Three while still One …

If te initial Christians needed a leader [and they did - Peter was that man] even those who had heard Jesus for thmselves … how much more so we Christians remote to the Man Jesus 2000 years …

Arrogance like this has led to Churches who deny the need for baptism while others insist upon it … Some Christians believe that once you are saved you can sin with abandon because “once saved always saved” [all while lambasting Catholics who avail themselves of Sacramental Reconcilliation] … :eek:

The sinner’s prayer, altar calls, use of musical instruments in worship, no instruments … Perpetual Viginity … Now days Not … Abortion bad , Abortion okay, Homosexual Relations Taboo - Homosexual Marriage to be Celebrated … WWJD? 😊

You have made yourself a Pope … who declares the “Debate Over” …and wonder why we fail to bow to your superior understanding of the holy scriptures 🤷
 
Because you selectively take scriptures quotes in isolation and not as a whole … and then force upon them your preconcieved [outcome based] interpretation and declare it the Truth …

the arrogance of this stance … your interpretation is right any other is wrong …
By evading my post, you have acknowledged the truth.
 
Before the great forum crash a poster named SteveG posted the following on the papacy:

Solo Ecclesia
When faced with the obvious unworkability of the doctrine of Sola Scriptura, many Protestants appeal to the supposed subjectivity of the Catholic authority as a defense. The most common argument is to claim something along the lines of what James White does. He accuses the Catholic side of using what he calls ‘Sola Ecclesia’, and claims , ‘That to set forth the necessity of an Infallible Church to interpret a Revelation that can not be interpreted is simply to move our cries of subjectivity back a single step.’

While this argument ignores the fact that even if true it still doesn’t prove Sola Scriptura (at best it means that both Sola Scriptura and the Catholic position are false), it raises a valid question. Is the Catholic understanding subjective in the same way Sola Scriptura is? This question is in no way outrageous and deserves a response. We must see if an evidentiary case can indeed be made for the Catholic understanding of authority.

At the outset we have to admit that this claim (as with any claim) can not be proved absolutely. Any understanding of history is, by nature, to some extent subjective. Any religious belief by definition is held by faith. But unlike Sola Scriptura, which is self contradictory and illogical on it’s face, a case can be made for the Catholic understanding. While that case is not self-refuting, nor contradictory, each reader must still weigh the evidence and judge if it can stand or not.

Authority and Interpretation in Jewish Culture during Jesus’ life
It would seem to me that the best place to start would be to look at what model of authority and interpretation existed during the life of Jesus. We can then look to see we can find out whether Jesus Himself had any view on that model.

The Sanhedrin
We do in fact know that a model existed. It was the Sanhedrin. During Jesus’ life the Sanhedrin was the supreme council and court of justice among the Jews. The exact origins of the Sanhedrin is a subject of debate. Some experts tie it to the council of seventy found in Numbers Chapter 11. Some have sought to link its origin to the founding of the ‘Great Synagogue’ of which tradition attributed to Esdras. Other interpretations have also been offered. Regardless of it’s origin, it is widely acknowledged (including in the New Testament (NT)) that it was the seat of religious power in Judaism at the time of Jesus.

According to the testimony of the Mishna (Sanh., i, 6; Shebuoth, ii, 2), confirmed by a remark of Josephus newadvent.org/cathen/08522a.htm (“Bell. Jud.”, II, xx, 5), the Sanhedrin consisted of seventy-one members, president included. Jewish tradition appealed to Numbers 9:16, to justify this number and indeed the model of 70 elders in addition to Moses as ‘president’ does seem to fit fairly well.
According to what rules the members were appointed and the vacancies filled up is unclear; it seems that various customs prevailed on this point at different periods. Since the Sanhedrin had to deal frequently with legal matters, it was natural that many of its members should be chosen from among men specially given to the study of the Law; this is why we so often hear of the scribes and Pharisees in the Sanhedrin. Most of those scribes during the time of Christ were Pharisees, with other members being of the Sadducee persuasion. At any rate we are told (Sanh., iv, 4) that a semikah, or imposition of hands, took place at the formal installation of the new appointees; and there is every reason to believe that the appointment was for life.

The jurisdiction of the Sanhedrin varied in extension at different periods. At the time of the public life of Jesus, only the eleven toparchies of Judea were de jure subject to the Great Sanhedrin of Jerusalem; however, de facto the Jews all the world over acknowledged its authority (as an instances of this, see Acts 9:2; 22:5; 26:12). As the supreme court of justice of the nation, the Sanhedrin was appealed to when the lower courts were unable to come to a decision (Sanh., vii, 1; xi, 2); moreover, it had the exclusive right of judgment in matters of special importance, as for instance the case of a false prophet, accusations against the high priest, the sending out of an army in certain circumstances, the enlarging of the city of Jerusalem, or of the Temple courts, etc. (Sanh., i, 5; ii, 4; iii, 4); the few instances mentioned in the New Testament exemplify the cases to which the competency of the Sanhedrin extended; in short, all religious matters and all civil matters not claimed by Roman authority were within its attributions; and the decisions issued by its judges were to be held inviolable (Sanh., xi, 2-4).

Evidence 1
At the time of Jesus, there existed an authoritative teaching body, which was both hierarchical, and for which succession was the method of filling vacant offices. This body was the Sanhedrin.

Jesus’ View
Seeing that this is the case, we must then ask if we can determine what Jesus thought of this model. Let us take a look at Matthew 23: 1-10…

Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to his disciples, saying: The scribes and the Pharisees have sitten on the chair of Moses. All things therefore whatsoever they shall say to you, observe and do: but according to their works do ye not. For they say, and do not.

Regardless of the historical debate of its origins, Jesus here is linking the Sanhedrin directly to Moses and the seventy for us. Moses’ seat in the context of Christ’s comments clearly represents Moses teaching authority. Jesus is telling us the Sanhedrin now has this authority. In this statement he is explicitly endorsing that teaching authority in the model outlined above.

As an aside, this bodes ill for Sola Scriptura in a double manner. Firstly, because Jesus here endorses the teaching authority of the Sanhedrin while making no mention of Torah authority. Secondly because he is using an oral tradition Himself to teach. The ‘Seat of Moses’ is nowhere mentioned in the Old Testament (OT), but is rather an oral tradition of the Jews of that time that he assumes they will recognize.
Also note that this passage does NOT say that the scribes and Pharisees teach false doctrines. Rather, what Jesus points out is that they teach true doctrine, but they do not practice what they preach. Because they “sit in Moses’ Seat,” i.e. they teach with the authority of Moses, they must be obeyed in their teaching, i.e. their teaching is correct, but they are not to be followed by their example, “for they say, and do not.”

Evidence 1
At the time of Jesus, there existed an authoritative teaching body, which was both hierarchical, and for which succession was the method of filling vacant offices. This body was the Sanhedrin.

Evidence 2
The teaching authority of the Sanhedrin was explicitly endorsed by Jesus.

The New Church and Authority
It seems reasonable then to argue that if this model was endorsed by Christ, then as he was establishing His Church, he might use this same model, and his disciples would recognize it. But this can not be assumed. We must look to see if there is any indication of this.

Let us start with Matthew 18:15-18
"If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

In this teaching we have Jesus explaining how resolution for offenses is to be handled in the Church which he is establishing. The model follows the Jewish model of the time of an escalation of the issue until it reaches the Church/Synagogue. But ultimately it is assumed that the Church will have the authority to make a definitive judgment in the matter. In order to be a judge, one must have that authority. We already know how that authority was invested in the Jewish culture and that Jesus acknowledged and endorsed that system. It is the Catholic understanding that Jesus is making a statement here that in His Church, it is His disciples who will hold such power (i.e. the ‘new’ Sanhedrin). In giving the power to bind and loose to His disciples, he is investing in them the authority to teach, interpret and be judges in His new Church.

Who is the ‘YOU’
There are two main issues that must be clarified in order to support this understanding. Firstly, who the ‘you’ is in the ‘truly’ I say to you. Secondly, whether the power of binding and loosing does indeed indicate such authority.

Via Matt. 18:1 we know that the dialogue above was a conversation between Jesus and His disciples. During the dialogue He at times expands the context of the teaching to include a wider group (see 18:5 (whoever), 18:15(brother)), but His emphatic ‘I say unto YOU’ implies that he is addressing the next statement specifically to the conversants. In addition, in the context of the preceding versus regarding the ‘church’, it would seem non-sensical (especially in light of what we know about the Jewish authority structure), to give judgmental and teaching authority to all members. If each member has equivalent authority, then there is by definition no ‘higher’ authority to which one can appeal. It would make the investing of authority and the escalation of the issue unworkable.

In light of the context that Church functioning is what is actually being discussed, and in light of the Jewish model, it seems more reasonable to posit that Jesus is investing this authority in His ‘disciples’. It is also important to mention that in context of Matthew, ‘disciples’ was a much more restrictive term than crowd, or followers. I personally believe that a full reading of Matthew strongly suggests, that for whatever his purpose, Matthew did not acknowledge any other of the disciples than the twelve. Even a more expansive reading using the context of Luke, which tells us that the full circle of disciples (as opposed to followers) totaled at most seventy (hmmm, that number seventy again, another tie to the existing Jewish model?) is still fairly restrictive.

Binding and Loosing
The crucial issue is whether authority is what is being given by Jesus in this teachings. What did He mean by the terms “bind” and “loose?” These words were commonly used by Jewish rabbis. New Testament scholars agree that “binding and loosing,” when used in this way, retain the basic meaning that they had in the Jewish culture of the first century.

For example, the THEOLOGICAL DICTIONARY OF THE NEW TESTAMENT states under the entries for “deo” and “luo” (the Greek words for binding and loosing used in Matthew), "Jesus does not give to Peter and the other disciples any power to enchant or to free by magic. The customary meaning of the Rabbinic expressions is equally incontestable, namely, to declare forbidden or permitted, and thus to impose or remove an obligation, by a doctrinal decision."1 TDNT draws the conclusion that this is the meaning of the words as used in Matthew 16:19 and 18:18.

A. T. Robertson, one of this century’s leading Greek scholars, also comments on Matthew 16:19: "To bind' in rabbinical language is to forbid, to loose’ is to permit.

Concerning Matthew 16:19, William Hendriksen states, "The very wording - note whatever,' not whoever’ - shows that the passage refers to things, in this case beliefs and actions, not directly to people. Binding and loosing are rabbinical terms, meaning forbidding and permitting."3

Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon Of The New Testament, under the entry "de " (to bind), states, “…by a Chaldean and rabbinic idiom to forbid, prohibit, declare illicit: Matthew 16:19; 18:18.”

In Matthew 18, Christ is clearly giving the disciples an authoritative power to teach doctrine in His Church. But these cites also reference Matthew 16:19 as well. Let us take a look now at Matthew
16:Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17: And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
18: And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.
19: I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
Here we have Christ giving this power specifically to Peter at the same time as giving him a new name of ‘Rock’ (Cephus, Petros) (chronologically this occurred earlier). So he specifically singles Peter out and gives him this authority. Why was this necessary if he was going to do so later in Matt 18. The ‘key’ to this is in the first part of the statement ‘I will give you the keys to of the kingdom of heaven’. He single Peter out because he is giving him something additional that he won’t give the other disciples in Matt. 18. So what do the keys represent?

The image of the keys is probably drawn from Isaiah 22:15-25 usccb.org/nab/bible/isaiah/isaiah22.htm where Eliakim, who succeeds Shebnah as master of the palace, is given “the key of the house of David,” which he authoritatively “opens” and “shuts” (Isaiah 22:22 usccb.org/nab/bible/isaiah/isaiah22.htm). It is disputed whether the image of the keys and that of binding and loosing are different metaphors meaning the same thing. In any case, the promise of the keys is given to Peter alone. If Jesus is not giving some additional rank or authority to Peter alone, then what can it mean that Jesus not only singled him out for this blessing, but also gave the blessing with a second ‘gift’ (the keys) as well. The Protestant view that Peter here is given nothing special defies logic and again makes a statement of Jesus meaningless.

The Best Evidence - Matthew 16 and Matthew 18 In Action
If the ‘interpretations’ of the above two passages are unconvincing, then we can look elsewhere in the NT to see how Peter and the others understood Jesus’ teaching on binding and loosing by examining their actions as recorded in the Book of Acts. Acts 15 records a dispute that arose about the behavior of Gentiles who were recently becoming part of the church. Their customs were far different from the Jews, who then made up most of the church. Should the new Gentile converts be required to be circumcised and to keep other requirements of the Law of Moses? So how was this issue resolved?

1:But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” 2: And when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and debate with them, Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and the elders about this question.

We see Paul and Barnabas heading up to the first council at Jerusalem for a resolution. They go to the ‘Apostles and Elders’ to have the issue decided. So what happens next?

6:The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter. 7: And after there had been much debate, Peter rose and said to them, “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8: And God who knows the heart bore witness to them, giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us; 9: and he made no distinction between us and them, but cleansed their hearts by faith. 10: Now therefore why do you make trial of God by putting a yoke upon the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11: But we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.” 12: And all the assembly kept silence;

What happens is that the apostles and elders debate the issue, Peter rises (note that his rising ends the debate), and gives his decision in very clear terms ‘We believe…, just as they will’. Not ‘We believe…so the should’, but ‘We believe…just as they will’. This is a definitive statement. And all the assembly kept silence. A few moments later, James concurs with Peter (this would have been ecclesiastically appropriate since they were in Jerusalem, and James was the bishop of the Church in Jerusalem). No further burden was to be placed upon the Gentile Christians. The apostles herein exercised the power of binding and loosing, as given by Jesus, and Peter took the lead role in doing so. The authority to bind and loose is the authority to declare what is God’s mind on a matter of doctrine or practice. This is what the early church did in Acts 15.

Evidence 1
At the time of Jesus, there existed an authoritative teaching body, which was both hierarchical, and for which succession was the method of filling vacant offices. This body was the Sanhedrin.

Evidence 2
The teaching authority of the Sanhedrin was explicitly endorsed by Jesus.

Evidence 3
Jesus invests teaching/doctrinal authority (previously held by the Sanhedrin) for His church in His disciples. His disciples recognize this commission and demonstrated such by exercising that authority.

Argument 1
Jesus intended for an authoritative body to exist in His church which would be able to teach on doctrinal issue (i.e. necessity of circumcision). That body was established and consisted of His Disciples (the Apostles and elders). That body recognized it’s authority and exercised it over the rest of the Church body. The body likewise recognized that authority and looked to it to resolve disputes (i.e. Paul and Barnabas were sent up to that body to get a judgment).
 
By evading my post, you have acknowledged the truth.
I did not evade your post … thise passages do not tke away from Peter’s ledership of the Church … the Church Jesus founded, the Chruch of Christ funded upon Cephas, who was given the Keys of the Kingdom to “bind and loose” on earth and in heaven …

Peter, with James and John asked Paul to go to the gentiles … Peter’s role [unlike James or John] was to the whole of the Church not just to the jews … it was Peter to which God revealed the dietary laws regarding gentiles … and Peter who baptized the entire household of Cornelious … So they gave Paul a mission … one his didnot assign himself …

Paul references Peter’s role when he goes upto Jerusalem and stayed with Peter 15 days so that those to whom Paul went would know that he [Paul] was in union with Peter … because Paul had already been preaching but people doubted his apostolic status …

Paul also acknowledges Peter’s authority when he boasts about confronting Peter to his face about his hypocracy regarding eating with gentiles … Paul’s boast means little if Peter was not known as the leader of the chruch … [Paul has little to boast of though because he later committed an even mor egregious form of hypocracy in having Timothy circumcised … ]
 
Is this all? What terms in the above passage refer to Peter’s unique authority? Paul elsewhere acknowledges Peter as apostle to the Jews and he Paul as apostle to the Gentiles. But in no terms does Paul refer to Peter as head of the church in this or any other passage. Paul’s whole point is that his ministry was ordained by Jesus Christ himself, not by anyone else, certainly not Peter.

Look at the context here:

Galatians 1:16
I did not consult any man, 17nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went immediately into Arabia and later returned to Damascus. 18Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get **acquainted with **Peter and stayed with him fifteen days. 19 I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord’s brother.

Then in Galatians 2
6As for those who seemed to be important—whatever they were makes no difference to me; God does not judge by external appearance—those men added nothing to my message. 7On the contrary, they saw that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the Gentiles,just as Peter had been to the Jews.8For God, who was at work in the ministry of Peter as an apostle to the Jews, was also at work in my ministry as an apostle to the Gentiles. 9James, Peter and John, those reputed to be pillars

11When **Peter came **to Antioch, **I opposed him **to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. 12Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.

From the above it is clear that in Paul’s view Peter has no special position as head of the church, and this is not the only one passage where we would expect such a reference if true.
Those that deny Peter’s leadership of the church have a lot of scripture to ignore.
Peter is by far the most mentioned Apostle in the New Testament
Peter is at the transfiguration, the raising of the dead Girl- part of all the unique stories.
Peter is the one who attempts to walk on water
Peter is the one who first acknowledges Christ as the Messiah
Peter is the one who is named the Rock, on which Christ Church will be built
Peter is given the keys to Heaven
it is Peter who is told to strengthen his brothers by Jesus in anticipation of the Passion
It is Peter that tries to defend the lord at the Garden of Gethsemane, chopping off the ear of the High Priest’s servant, Malcus
It is Peter’s story that we follow in parallel to the crucifixion, first as he is the one who follow’s Christ as he is tried and ultimately as he denies Christ
Peter is the first Apostle to see the risen Christ
Peter is the one who is told after the resurrection to tend to the sheep
It is Peter that speaks for the Apostles at Pentecost
It is Peter that defines the need to pick a successor (Matthias) to Judas in the Apostolic ministry
It is Peter who heals the cripple after Pentecost
It is Peter who is called to bring Cornelius as the first Gentile into the Church
it is Peter to whom Paul first confers when starting his mission, note that Paul also talks of seeing him to insure that he hadn’t been “running in vien”
it is Peter who takes the definitive stand at the Council of Jerusalem
So in light of all this, how do you dispute Peter’s pre-eminance among the Apostles?
 
Hmmm…
New International Version
15 But when God, who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace, was pleased
16 to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man,
17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went immediately into Arabia and later returned to Damascus.
18 Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Peter and stayed with him fifteen days.
19 I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord’s brother.
VS.
New American Bible:
15 But when God, who from my mother’s womb had set me apart and called me through his grace, was pleased
16 to reveal his Son to me, so that I might proclaim him to the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult flesh and blood,
17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; rather, I went into Arabia and then returned to Damascus.
18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to confer with Kephas and remained with him for fifteen days.
19 But I did not see any other of the apostles, only James the brother of the Lord.
See the nuances of translation? The NAB keeps Paul’s literal figures of speech - “flesh and blood”, “from my mother’s womb”. He also uses “Kephas” instead of “Peter” (“Petros”). But later Paul does uses “Peter” in Galatians 2:
7 On the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter to the circumcised,
8 for the one who worked in Peter for an apostolate to the circumcised worked also in me for the Gentiles,
Why does Paul refer to Simon in two different ways in Greek? “Petros” is of course “rock”, and “Kephas”, while from the Aramaic “Kepha”, “rock”, would have reminded the readers of the word “Kephale”, meaning “head”. Now if one reads the following verses while applying this word-play:
11 And when the Head came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face because he clearly was wrong.
14 But when I saw that they were not on the right road in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to the Head in front of all, “If you, though a Jew, are living like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?”
 
Here is what St. John Chrysostom says in his first homily on Galatians:

Ver. 18. “Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas.”

What can be more lowly than such a soul? After such successes, wanting nothing of Peter, not even his assent, but being of equal dignity with him, (for at present I will say no more,) he comes to him as his elder and superior. And the only object of this journey was to visitPeter; thus he pays due respect to the Apostles, and esteems himself not only not their better but not their equal. Which is plain from this journey, for Paul was induced to visit Peter by the same feeling from which many of our brethren sojourn with holy men: or rather by a humbler feeling for they do so for their own benefit, but this blessed man, not for his own instruction or correction, but merely for the sake of beholding and honoring Peter by his presence. He says, “to visit Peter;” he does not say to see, (ἰ δεῖν,) but to visit and survey, (ἰ στορῆσαι,) a word which those, who seek to become acquainted with great and splendid cities, apply to themselves. Worthy of such trouble did he consider the very sight of Peter; and this appears from the Acts of the Apostles also. (Acts 21:17, 18etc.) For on his arrival at Jerusalem, on another occasion, after having converted many Gentiles, and, with labors far surpassing the rest, reformed and brought to Christ Pamphylia, Lycaonia, Cilicia, and all nations in that quarter of the world, he first addresses himself with great humility to James, as to his elder and superior. Next he submits to his counsel, and that counsel contrary to this Epistle. “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of them which have believed; therefore shave your head, and purify yourself.” (Acts xxi. 20 f.) Accordingly he shaved his head, and observed all the Jewish ceremonies; for where the Gospel was not affected, he was the humblest of all men. But where by such humility he saw any injured, he gave up that undue exercise of it, for that was no longer to be humble but to outrage and destroy the disciples.

Ver. 18. “And tarried with him fifteen days.”

To take a journey on account of him was a mark of respect; but to remain so many days, of friendship and the most earnest affection.

Ver. 19. “But other of the Apostles saw I none, save James, the Lord’s brother.”

See what great friends he was with Peter especially; on his account he left his home, and with him he tarried. This I frequently repeat, and desire you to remember, that no one, when he hears what thisApostle seems to have spoken against Peter, may conceive a suspicion of him. He premises this, that when he says, “I resisted Peter,” no one may suppose that these words imply enmity and contention; for he honored and loved his person more than all and took this journey for his sake only, not for any of the others. “But other of the Apostles saw I none, save James.” “I saw him merely, I did not learn from him,” he means. But observe how honorably he mentions him, he says not “James” merely, but adds this illustrious title, so free is he from all envy. Had he only wished to point out whom he meant, he might have shown this by another appellation, and called him the son of Cleophas, as the Evangelist does. But as he considered that he had a share in the august titles of the Apostles, he exalts himself by honoring James; and this he does by calling him “the Lord’s brother,” although he was not by birth His brother, but only so reputed. Yet this did not deter him from giving the title; and in many other instances he displays towards all the Apostles that noble disposition, which beseemed him.
 
Since I am not a Protestant, these men are not problematic for me. I follow Christ revealed in Matt.26:29 when he said “this fruit of the vine” before they drank it.
If you are not Catholic or Orthodox…if you have rejected the Mysteries of the Church (including the Real Presence)…then your roots are in the reformation.
 
Irenaeus did not claim to be inspired or without error.
At this time Victor, whom Irenaeus rebuked, was probably a singular bishop of Rome. His spirit of Diotrephes is demonstrated in his arbitrary declaration of excommunication of churches that did not celebrate the Pasqua on the same day he did, in clear violation of Romans 14:5-6 “One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord.”

took me a little while to get back her I’ve been busy.

anyway, no one said Irenaeus was without error or claimed to be. However, when I look at this writing of his:

‘But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition" (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [A.D. 189]).’ (emphasis mine.)

from:
catholic.com/library/Authority_of_the_Pope_Part_1.asp

I realize that he is not Inspired, but I don’t believe he pulled this out of thin air. Either he is in error or I am and I looked at that and still look at it and it just stares me in the face. Either this he knew what he was talking about, he’s misunderstood, or his words are being misinterpreted by Catholics. (Unless you can think of something else.) But I keep going back to that first option because he was close to Polycarp and John. Did he make this up? I don’t think so. And there is more to back up Rome position.

Mickey, I know that you and I had at least seen eye to eye on that passage way back about the rich man in torment and Lazarus. I have come to find out that Catholics hold both positions but the position that the rich man was in hell is the majority one, actually I believe that’s how the Chatecism sees it. I degress, anyway,

what do Orthodox Christians think about this passage by Irenaeus? I really am curious. peace

peace Daniel.

ng
 
I did not evade your post … thise passages do not tke away from Peter’s ledership of the Church … the Church Jesus founded, the Chruch of Christ funded upon Cephas, who was given the Keys of the Kingdom to “bind and loose” on earth and in heaven …

…so that those to whom Paul went would know that he [Paul] was in union with Peter …
Did Paul think Peter’s role was important?

Galatians 2:6 As for those who seemed to be important—whatever they were makes no difference to me; God does not judge by external appearance—those men added nothing to my message.

Did Paul go up so others would know he was in union with Peter?

7On the contrary, they saw that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the Gentiles,just as Peter had been to the Jews.
 
…anyway, no one said Irenaeus was without error or claimed to be. However, when I look at this writing of his:

‘But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of **the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, **and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition" (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [A.D. 189]).’ (emphasis mine.)

from:
catholic.com/library/Authority_of_the_Pope_Part_1.asp

I realize that he is not Inspired…, what do Orthodox Christians think about this passage by Irenaeus? I really am curious. peace

peace Daniel.

ng
‘But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, **we shall confound all **those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and **organized at Rome **by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition" (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [A.D. 189]).’

In the above quote Irenaeus chooses Rome to demonstrate where truth can be found, rather than enumerate all the true churches. Irenaeus is writing against heresy, so he uses the argument of succession of bishops from the apostles to say truth can be found in those churches. He is not saying Rome has singular authority over the whole church but rather that it can certainly be trusted as a source of truth becasue of its origin in both Peter and Paul. It is very significant that what is missing is the Catholic argument of Peter and his successors as head of the Church. This would have been the most important argument against heresy if Irenaeus knew about it.
 
If you are not Catholic or Orthodox…if you have rejected the Mysteries of the Church (including the Real Presence)…then your roots are in the reformation.
No, my roots re the bread and cup are in Matt.26:29
 
Here is what St. John Chrysostom says in his first homily on Galatians:

Ver. 18. “Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas.”
Did Paul regard Peter as having special importance or authority? Did he seek his permission to do anything?

Galatians 2:6 As for those who seemed to be important—whatever they were makes no difference to me
 
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