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tomarin
Guest
I agree, this is very strange.
And for Pete29, I thought your post #56 was very amusing.
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And for Pete29, I thought your post #56 was very amusing.
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clem456
Guest
Don’t start reading scripture with the fundamentalists now…
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Trident_H
Guest
Maybe in the old days more men died in wars and hunting than women died in childbirth. So maybe it was a thing people needed to do in order to make things work. But now there’s no reason like that.
I don’t know.
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Rau
Guest
God drew a people to himself progressively. He did not dump an entire new system of law on man all at once.
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clem456
Guest
And he gave human beings “eyes to see” and “ears to hear” what he reveals.
The fact that we are also stupid requires the progression you note above.
Jesus’ observation:
“because your hearts were so hard (in the OT)”
illustrates this point.
When hearts are hard, eyes can’t see and ears can’t hear.
The more I participate in this thread the more nauseous I get.
We have people advocating the “ok-ness” of multiple partner marriages, and trying to justify it in a Christian context.
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AgnosticBoy
Guest
Tertullian tried to make an argument for monogamy in his writing, De Monogomia, and in it he tried to reference how even non-human animals followed monogamy. Going by decades worth of scientific observation we now know that is flat out false in many cases. There are plenty of examples of non-monogamous groups in the wild, like lions, for instance. Bonobos are just flat out promiscuous. So much for natural law in that case.You say natural law is fallible…
Human reason is definitely fallible.
However some things are written on the heart, or, let’s say they are commonly observable for any perceiving and thinking human being.
Have you ever observed that it takes precisely one man and one woman to create a unique child?
So then, for you as a unique human being, 'agnostic boy", one mother and one father came together, and now you exist as a human being.
Before, you were not.
Now, you are.
One man, one woman, procreate one unique human being. To exist, to live, to think, to discuss.
If my reason denied this reality, would you say that I am insane?
Irregardless of the fallibility of my reason, nature is in place and can be seen by anyone.
I also disagree with natural law because scientific observations have also shown us cross-culturally that not all cultures agree on the same morals. Sure, we agree on a lot of the major ones involve physical harm, but in other areas, the door is wide open. So imagine, leaving natural law to just human nature which is a product of biology and environment (esp. culture). Secondly, I disagree with even some of your framework to frame a natural law, like a natural marriage being about being able to produce your own unique biological children. This is unnecessary; it’s a mere opinion, and it’s not even required biblically.
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AgnosticBoy
Guest
I actually agree with most of your points eventhough I also see nothing wrong with polygamy. No man should “make” his wife share her love to him with another woman but rather she should only do so when or if she chooses to do so. This is where the disagreement might start. When wife #1 is okay with polygamy, she would not be thinking that the husband is not satisfied with her but rather she would be inviting a new companion in to strengthen the marital family, perhaps by providing extra financial, spiritual, and social benefits or whatever other benefit wife #1 finds from polygamy.
Jealousy is natural but it can be maintenance with therapy. If you study jealousy cross-culturally or even subculturally, you’ll find that while everyone experiences jealousy but the key thing is not everyone experiences jealousy for the same reasons. I’ve read about alternative lifestyles that allowed open relationships and jealousy was minimal. This shows what might bother you may not reach the threshold to bother others.
Polygamy can be practiced for different reasons. Some parts of Asia allows polyandry which is clearly for different reasons than what you bring up. There is no one theory fits all and in fact, I’d be willing to add that love can be a modern-day reason just as it is for monogamy.
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Rau
Guest
So…you believe natural law has (ought to have) application to “nature” at large, including Bonobos…or were you making a joke?
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anon67074017
Guest
Marriage is a lifelong commitment with one partner only.
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Tommy999
Guest
Good one.
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Tommy999
Guest
Many good reasons have already been stated. I would just remind folks of the story in Genesis 16 of Abraham, Sarah, and Hagar.
Jealousy and competition are a natural result of such relationships based on human nature, including jealously, insecurity, and competition. Not a healthy cocktail for a stable relationship among humans in most cases. I think God knew human nature (both male and female) and what was best for us. That is why He gave us holy guidelines to live by.
Jealousy and competition are a natural result of such relationships based on human nature, including jealously, insecurity, and competition. Not a healthy cocktail for a stable relationship among humans in most cases. I think God knew human nature (both male and female) and what was best for us. That is why He gave us holy guidelines to live by.
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AgnosticBoy
Guest
What I see during biblical times are lots of women being brought or traded into arranged “monogamous” marriages. We know the natural result of this leads to women being suppressed. No form of marriage was without problems in the Bible. And this was a global problem, not just something amongst the Jews.
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AgnosticBoy
Guest
I’d really like to discuss the biblical aspect of polygamy rather than the secular reasons for why its wrong. I think your passage is a good start. You can even refer to Genesis 29:30-33 where God is concerned about a man not loving TWO wives equally, and then God acts to resolve that and surprisingly His acts did NOT involve breaking up the polygamous marriage.
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Wesrock
Guest
I don’t understand what’s so difficult about God raising mankind out of immorality slowly, but by bit at a time, like raising a child, or converting a person’s heart. It’s not an instantaneous process. Step to fast and people will run away.
May as well ask why God didn’t give Abraham or even Noah or Adam the Ten Commandments.
May as well ask why God didn’t give Abraham or even Noah or Adam the Ten Commandments.
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FractalFire
Guest
Well, duh. To break up the marriage would have resulted in mortification and possibly death for at least one wife, who could never remarry and would live in shame. Furthermore, by marrying her, the husband had already promised to protect her to the best of his ability. He can’t take back his word now and abandon whichever he likes least to die. I’m not seeing the problem here.
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Thorolfr
Guest
But how did Abraham protect her? He sent Hagar with their son Ishmael to wander in the desert.
Genesis 21:9-14
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Tomdstone
Guest
I heard from an African priest that although polygamy is discouraged, the local church generally would not condemn a man over 65 or so who had several wives.
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Sarcelle
Guest
Yes. However, the same man would have to live with his wives, with the exception of one, as brother and sister. This way the women and the resulting children would not be without his protection and support but at the same time will not violate Church teaching on polygamy.
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FractalFire
Guest
True enough, I had forgotten about that. Regardless, this action was not always ordered by God in cases of polygamy, I think for the reasons I mentioned. In these circumstances, perhaps removing Hagar was necessary to preserve Isaac, necessitating extraordinary action. Regardless, I think it pretty clear that, though God allowed polygamy, He did not seem to approve of it anymore than He approved of Israel’s continual idol worship. Time and time again, it comes back as one of the failing points of the families that causes conflict and heartbreak, as with the casting out of Hagar, the conflict between Jacob’s wives, the conflict caused by David taking another wife, and the tragedy caused by Solomon’s many wives. Though Polygamy was somewhat tolerated, I think it is painted in at least as bad a light as the rest of Israel’s sometimes tolerated sins. The Hebrew scriptures make it abundantly clear that just because the Israelites are doing something doesn’t mean God approves; indeed, much of the Old Testament is about their continual falling away and God continually prodding them back onto the right path.
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