Why is polygamy wrong?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Jesusonthecross
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Because God can not do something which is morally wrong and God Himself said that He would give David more wives. David already had several wives at that time. So any argument which says that polygamy is morally wrong cannot be valid.
Ummmm you have one small problem.
Jesus Christ does not agree with you. That is also in scripture.

So given the seeming contradiction, what are you to do with the passage concerning David?
One response is to insist on a fundamentalist interpretation of the OT and apply it in literalist fashion. (so then you believe in six day creation…I’m not sure how a person with the benefit of modern science can interpret a passage from an ancient culture in this way but…I respect your belief, but I think it’s not really in truth.)\

Another response is to read the passage in context. That is how the Catholic Church reads scripture…always in context, always in light of Jesus Christ.
(I’m curious what religion you are and whether or not you believe in Christ…)
 
Tell me why you won’t be accepting their claim that them and a houseful of children is just way too ideal to pass up?
The claim that I won’t accept without credible evidence is that no household would allow polyandry or similar relationships. For those who think that monogamy is ideal, then they will simply stay monogamous.
You complain about laws that were put in place AFTER abuses of the kind I’ve mentioned before actually happened. Again and again. And you just blithely ignore them as if somehow this time around will be different. Why will it be different? Because a ‘reality’ TV show showed how sparkly the forbidden was and made it seem normal? Was that all it took?
Actually, polygamy was made illegal in the United States in the time of Abraham Lincoln - the time when people were filled with prejudices against racial minorities and women. So much for being smart enough to do something about abuses.

There were no studies about abuses back then so the judgement against polygamy was made out of ignorance and prejudice, and prejudice was typical for many at that time. Meanwhile, I question the conditions of monogamous marriages since women were often suppressed in society.
If you were truly as objective and fair as you pretend shouldn’t it be you pointing out both pros and cons and being honest about the balance of probabilities? But no. Instead you slide all the way flat and pretend it’s all good and no bad. I keep asking you how the ‘good’ in it outweighs the potential bad and you never seem to have a straight answer. 🤷
My view is that we should not ban polygamy because there are good ways to practice it or that most of the bad ways are resolvable. People should also realize that there are good and bad ways to practice monogamy, and we’ve taken centuries on developing therapy, laws, and benefits to support monogamy. Polygamy has not been given the same chance to evolve in Western society because it is largely suppressed, yet we still find good examples.
Notice something funny about your example? The wives were given as GIFTS. For being right in the eyes of the Lord. Like property. Just typical of polygamy. So is your argument that we should go back to giving women away as gifts? Why is ‘polygamy is righteous’ the only take-away from that? Shouldn’t the full message be: if you are good you deserve to be given women? The better you are, the more you get? 🤷
Perhaps the two wives were a gift but then it doesn’t follow that polygamy was immoral. The author in the passage I referenced was clearly trying to paint a picture of a man being righteous “in the eyes of GOD” so it doesn’t make sense that the author would immediately bring up a blatant sinful act, especially involving a leading PRIEST of God.
That was my point: God did not list every single sin for all time. He just focused on the ones that needed fixing first.
If it was written about, which king David’s polygamy was, then God would call him out on it just as he called out David for adultery. Interestingly, David was known for repentance but David nor other polygamists had to show repentance due to their additional wives. Secondly, God would not be calling polygamy a sin when he calls men who practice it righteous.
Once Polygamy is made a complete free-for-all why do you think anyone will be paying any attention to your view?
To be practical and to avoid harm. Polygamy is practiced in the Bible and there’s no mention of it leading to swinging, etc, etc. So yes, it is possible to practice polygamy with some standards of decency.
Why not? Doesn’t that mean Husband #1 is basically the dominant figure in the house? If it’s supposed to be an open-honest-to-goodness-free-love-fest-of-equals why would the women automatically not be able to have opposite-sex partners brought in if the male can do that? This doesn’t seem at all balanced. Nor fair. Nor equal. Nor honestly a real tribunal of equals.
If wife #1 doesn’t want additional wife until husband is okay with an additional husband, then it’s best that wife # stay out of polygamy entirely. It’s that simple!
I mean after all, what is a real tribunal of equals if the rules say at the beginning that only -]some members/-] one member on the team can have their ultimate fantasies rewarded while other members just have to put-up or shut-up? Sounds a lot like 2 classes of people in your imaginary household.
Equality in numbers (equal number of males and females in the relationship) does not always equal equality in ‘fairness’. When you just go by numbers then you disregard CHOICE when not everyone wants it.
What if wife #1 and #2 decide they don’t like the original rules and so vote to change them? Would you have to leave if you disagreed? :rolleyes:
No, I’d willing to compromise just as I do in monogamy. This is no different than working together as a team.
 
Show us the passage.
🤷
“Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE, 5and said, ‘FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH’? 6“So they are no longer two, but one flesh.
 
The passage does not say that polygamy is forbidden or that it is wrong.
Rigght. The stock response to this passage for anything not specifically mentioned.

It also doesn’t mention that I am not a pro basketball player.
So, I am.

Christ clearly and definitively lays out the properly ordered sexuality of human beings here.
“From the beginning…” should give you pause to reflect.
“Joined to his wife”
“Two shall be one flesh”

These are Christ’s words. And I don’t know if that means anything to you or not cause I’m not sure what your faith tradition is. If you’re not Christian say so, and we can talk about natural law. I can respect the fact that Christ’s words might not mean anything to you, fair enough.
But his words are what they are, any thinking person can read them, and there is definitively no room for multiple partners in Christian marriage.
 
Rigght. The stock response to this passage for anything not specifically mentioned.

It also doesn’t mention that I am not a pro basketball player.
So, I am.

Christ clearly and definitively lays out the properly ordered sexuality of human beings here.
“From the beginning…” should give you pause to reflect.
“Joined to his wife”
“Two shall be one flesh”

These are Christ’s words. And I don’t know if that means anything to you or not cause I’m not sure what your faith tradition is. If you’re not Christian say so, and we can talk about natural law. I can respect the fact that Christ’s words might not mean anything to you, fair enough.
But his words are what they are, any thinking person can read them, and there is definitively no room for multiple partners in Christian marriage.
No. The passage does not forbid polygamy. The passage that I gave clearly shows that God does not believe that polygamy is immoral since God says that He would give David more wives.
 
No. The passage does not forbid polygamy. The passage that I gave clearly shows that God does not believe that polygamy is immoral since God says that He would give David more wives.
A man and a woman. Not a man and several women.
 
No. The passage does not forbid polygamy. The passage that I gave clearly shows that God does not believe that polygamy is immoral since God says that He would give David more wives.
The passage lays out what a marriage is, in Christ’s words.
🤷

The David passage is from the OT. You might read the bible as a fundamentalist, Catholics do not. In other words, what is taken for “normal” as God’s will for the ancient peoples is not read in fundamentalist fashion as applying today, literally.

Catholics read all of Scripture in context, in the light of Christ.

Do you read scripture this way, or as a fundamentalist? Not a problem either way, but we are talking apples and oranges.
Seriously, it would help if we knew what your MO is.
 
It also doesn’t mention that I am not a pro basketball player.
.
There is nothing wrong with being a basketball player. I don;t see any passage where God says it is forbidden to play basketball. So it is not a sin.
 
A man and a woman. Not a man and several women.
In many cases a man has one wife; this is true. But He did not say that you cannot have more than one wife. In fact, God has said that He would give David more wives.
God cannot do something which is morally wrong.
 
In many cases a man has one wife; this is true. But He did not say that you cannot have more than one wife. In fact, God has said that He would give David more wives.
God cannot do something which is morally wrong.
Do you believe in Christ?
This is kinda important to the conversation.
 
A man and a woman. Not a man and several women.
Consider: A man leaves his parents and joins to his wife, and the two become one.

And now another man leaves his parents and joins to his wife (same woman as above) and those two are now one. Where does that leave husband Nbr 1? Well, he is one with his wife. So thus, all 3 are one. Thus, Hubbie 1 and Hubbie 2 are joined as one also!

See what revelations are possible when you approach scripture in the right way? 😉

I can’t see how to get multiple wives in the picture though. Because the men are always modeled as “leaving their parents” (their then primary attachment) to get married.
 
Consider: A man leaves his parents and joins to his wife, and the two become one.

And now another man leaves his parents and joins to his wife (same woman as above) and those two are now one. Where does that leave husband Nbr 1? Well, he is one with his wife. So thus, all 3 are one. Thus, Hubbie 1 and Hubbie 2 are joined as one also!

See what revelations are possible when you approach scripture in the right way? 😉

I can’t see how to get multiple wives in the picture though. Because the men are always modeled as “leaving their parents” (their then primary attachment) to get married.
IMHO, the primary purpose of marriage is procreation and the begetting of children. Having several wives does not destroy or hinder the primary purpose of marriage since one man can have children from several wives. And, even when David already had a few wives, God has said that He would give David more wives, so this cannot be against the natural law, or the law of God. Yes, it may be against a law of man, but not against the natural law.
 
Thus far, some of the recent objections to polygamy has been about dodging all the information that clearly supports polygamy and skipping to passages that seem to not support polygamy. Even if we go down this road it would only lead to a biblical contradiction in which case we can not draw any reasonable conclusions from. So while I’m waiting for my scriptural references to be answered for I’ll go ahead and address some of the recent biblical points that some say supports the monogamy-only view of marriage.
  1. One or two members cited Matthew 19:4-6 or Genesis 2:24, the part about two becoming one flesh, etc, as being proof that God only wants marriage to be between two people.
  2. Then another forum member mentioned that what God did Old Testament should not be taken literally nor applied to today’s time.
Re: point #1
I agree in part with point #1 that marriage involves two people and that these two people become one flesh. In polygamy, a marriage can also involve two people if the polygamist has two separate marriages with one wife in each. As far as the becoming one flesh part goes this is more of a physical union, sex included, than it is a spiritual union. Becoming one also occurs in other cases which shows that it can occur more than one time and towards more than one person like when a widow remarries and becomes one with his or her new spouse, or when you become one with God, becoming one with prostitutes, etc.

Regarding point #2…
I disagree in part because part of the OT is still relevant, like for instance the moral laws of the OT, to not steal, no bestiality, no same-sex acts, etc, Much of the OT is a display of God’s moral laws in action and you can see this by reading about how God acts on the laws in His judgements, acts, and punishments. And following His example and judgements, I can see that polygamy is moral. The moral law even applies to Christ’s message which is why Christ says do not sin (sin assumes a moral law).
 
The claim that I won’t accept without credible evidence is that no household would allow polyandry or similar relationships. For those who think that monogamy is ideal, then they will simply stay monogamous.
No household would allow polyandry? No household would allow it? When did I make that claim?

I said very few would WANT polyandry. That polygyny was much more likely. So I was pointing out the great obvious that polygamy as a whole would not solve China’s problem of too many men. You, on the other hand, had a way of dreaming that it would.

I was trying to figure out how. :confused:
Actually, polygamy was made illegal in the United States in the time of Abraham Lincoln - the time when people were filled with prejudices against racial minorities and women. So much for being smart enough to do something about abuses.

There were no studies about abuses back then so the judgement against polygamy was made out of ignorance and prejudice, and prejudice was typical for many at that time. Meanwhile, I question the conditions of monogamous marriages since women were often suppressed in society.
So your logic is that because polygamy was outlawed at a time when abuse of women was common, it had nothing to do with abuse of women? How about the idea that it was practiced when abuse of women was common? Doesn’t fit the picture you’re trying to frame?

And your logic that it was abolished at the same time as slavery means it was not abolished for a good reason? You are actually arguing it was abolished because of prejudice? Really?

Instead of sort of noticing it was abolished at a time when people were sort of waking up to recognizing human dignity?

How about noticing the dates? 1865 slavery gets kicked out. 1890 polygamy follows. Coincidence? :rolleyes:
My view is that we should not ban polygamy because there are good ways to practice it or that most of the bad ways are resolvable. People should also realize that there are good and bad ways to practice monogamy, and we’ve taken centuries on developing therapy, laws, and benefits to support monogamy. Polygamy has not been given the same chance to evolve in Western society because it is largely suppressed, yet we still find good examples.
Please be a nice and even thinker and list all of the possible misuses of polygamy. Then make a tidy list of the maybe remedies. Then make a list of the possible benefits. Take a look at the lists. Publish your answers here. I’ll be watching for them.
Perhaps the two wives were a gift but then it doesn’t follow that polygamy was immoral. The author in the passage I referenced was clearly trying to paint a picture of a man being righteous “in the eyes of GOD” so it doesn’t make sense that the author would immediately bring up a blatant sinful act, especially involving a leading PRIEST of God.

If it was written about, which king David’s polygamy was, then God would call him out on it just as he called out David for adultery. Interestingly, David was known for repentance but David nor other polygamists had to show repentance due to their additional wives. Secondly, God would not be calling polygamy a sin when he calls men who practice it righteous.
I pointed out you’re reaching a bit. I still point this out. You never yet accepted that women given as gifts are slaves. And that slavery was fine in the OT. So by your logic, if polygamy is righteous so is slavery. Please explain why this is not so.
To be practical and to avoid harm. Polygamy is practiced in the Bible and there’s no mention of it leading to swinging, etc, etc. So yes, it is possible to practice polygamy with some standards of decency.
Ah. Just FYI. For swinging to be a thing? It takes women being equal. That wasn’t an ancient cultural norm.

Besides. You forget to even think about the effect of polygamy on children. Unless you really think shared access to a distant father is in the best thing that’s ever been thought up category.

And when you bring polygamy on line there’s no rational reason why someone would just disagree with your limits (whatever they are) and just push things further, farther, faster. You’re doing it. Others will do more. It seems the only for sure in this whole deal.
If wife #1 doesn’t want additional wife until husband is okay with an additional husband, then it’s best that wife # stay out of polygamy entirely. It’s that simple!
No, she’s fine with an additional wife. But then later she turns to you and asks why she can’t have an additional husband? What makes you different from her in the wants department?

And what do you do when wife #2 agrees? Let’s say you aren’t very satisfying to 2 women. Let’s say they want to go catch themselves a hunk? Maybe a guy a few years younger even? Why not? Why rationally not?
Equality in numbers (equal number of males and females in the relationship) does not always equal equality in ‘fairness’. When you just go by numbers then you disregard CHOICE when not everyone wants it.
I’m saying people change. So I’m pointing out that free votes can lead to a complete mess in terms of your relationship. So how do you control that? How do you control it fairly? Or wait. Why would you control that? Because fairness. Equality. Something something. Freedom. Whatever. :rolleyes:
No, I’d willing to compromise just as I do in monogamy. This is no different than working together as a team.
So having extra guys come on and eventually bring extra women who’d eventually bring extra men until you’re married to everyone around the block could possibly work in your book? Or does compromise for you just mean “I’d agree to let everyone do what I want.” :confused:
 
IMHO, the primary purpose of marriage is procreation and the begetting of children. Having several wives does not destroy or hinder the primary purpose of marriage since one man can have children from several wives.
Hey you could be right. I’m not arguing it’s immoral. Just trying to make sense of the “two becoming one flesh” bit when there are multiple husbands. And trying to figure out how multiple wives could arise given the words of Jesus.
 
Hey you could be right. I’m not arguing it’s immoral. Just trying to make sense of the “two becoming one flesh” bit when there are multiple husbands. And trying to figure out how multiple wives could arise given the words of Jesus.
I think that one wife having multiple husbands would be somewhat suspect because the child would not know who the father was and it could create conflict. It’s different though when a man has several wives since the child will always know who is his father and who is his mother. Two can become one flesh should be taken metaphorically because suppose a man gets married and his first wife is shot to death by a burglar. He then marries a second time and his second wife is killed by a driver who was texting. He then marries a third time. Now if the two had become one flesh, was it with the first wife, or with the second wife or with the third wife or with all three wives that he had validly and sacramentally married (although not all at the same time).
 
I think that one wife having multiple husbands would be somewhat suspect because the child would not know who the father was and it could create conflict. It’s different though when a man has several wives since the child will always know who is his father and who is his mother. Two can become one flesh should be taken metaphorically because suppose a man gets married and his first wife is shot to death by a burglar. He then marries a second time and his second wife is killed by a driver who was texting. He then marries a third time. Now if the two had become one flesh, was it with the first wife, or with the second wife or with the third wife or with all three wives that he had validly and sacramentally married (although not all at the same time).
It’s definitely a problem to “honor thy father” if you’re not sure who he is! So multiple husbands does looks dodgy.

Flesh is somewhat metaphorical, but the whole group must now be considered one. Somewhere scripture talks about the body of each spouse being the claim of the other (within loving bounds of course). I think anything other than 1:1 relationship does not sit well with this idea also.

And as I pointed out earlier, man should “leave” (also metaphorical) parents to marry, according to Jesus. This sits uneasily if he is already married and now proposes to take a(nother) wife.
 
I said very few would WANT polyandry. That polygyny was much more likely. So I was pointing out the great obvious that polygamy as a whole would not solve China’s problem of too many men. You, on the other hand, had a way of dreaming that it would.
Ok. I apologize for that. My point about China was only that polyandry (a specific form of polygamy) should be allowed in China and this was to answer the objection regarding a large surplus of males being bad for society. Monogamy would mandate that these surplus of males stay single which does nothing in the meantime to fix the problem.
So your logic is that because polygamy was outlawed at a time when abuse of women was common, it had nothing to do with abuse of women? How about the idea that it was practiced when abuse of women was common? Doesn’t fit the picture you’re trying to frame?
The decision of the U.S. government to ban polygamy as a whole was not based on any objective studies or findings of there being abuse. Secondly, the fact that polygamy, as a whole, was banned in the 19th century does not prove that the decision was right and the judgement of all of the society back then should be suspect since there was a lot of bigoted views and laws back then towards women and racial minorities.
And your logic that it was abolished at the same time as slavery means it was not abolished for a good reason? You are actually arguing it was abolished because of prejudice? Really?

Instead of sort of noticing it was abolished at a time when people were sort of waking up to recognizing human dignity?
Prejudice existed eventhough slavery was abolished. It’s possible to be prejudiced or culturally biased on some things and not be prejudiced on other things. The era that we’re referring to had some major prejudices, so much so that I would’ve called it hypocrisy to ban polygamy and not racial and gender inequality.
How about noticing the dates? 1865 slavery gets kicked out. 1890 polygamy follows. Coincidence? :rolleyes:
Polygamy was outlawed in the 1860s. Here’s one source: eom.byu.edu/index.php/Reynolds_V._United_States. In 1890, the Mormon Church banned polygamy as a Church practice and many consider this as being Utah caving in to pressure so they can become a state.
Please be a nice and even thinker and list all of the possible misuses of polygamy. Then make a tidy list of the maybe remedies. Then make a list of the possible benefits. Take a look at the lists. Publish your answers here. I’ll be watching for them.
I’d rather deal with an issue one topic at a time so that my points are not skipped over or “dodged” I should say, then we can continue on to other points.
I pointed out you’re reaching a bit. I still point this out. You never yet accepted that women given as gifts are slaves. And that slavery was fine in the OT. So by your logic, if polygamy is righteous so is slavery. Please explain why this is not so.
Polygamy and slavery are not sins despite there not being a perceived need for them. Even if we wiped out every single non-human mammal so that there was no availability for someone to commit bestiality but bestiality would still be a sin.

You have not addressed my point about 2 Chronicles 24:2-3 as to why an author would paint a picture of a man being righteous “to the LORD” and then IMMEDIATELY (as in the same thought or line or passage) portray him in a blatant sinful act which was initiated by what was supposed to be a priest - the leaders of God’s law and covenant.
Besides. You forget to even think about the effect of polygamy on children. Unless you really think shared access to a distant father is in the best thing that’s ever been thought up category.
This is yet but another example of a so-called problem of polygamy that people keep failing to realize that it’s NOT inherent to polygamy but rather is ONE bad way that polygamy is practiced. I also know distant fathers in monogamy or better yet fathers who don’t even step up to the plate at all. Some good examples of polygamy that I’ve seen involve there not being 20 wives but instead just 2 or 3 wives, and instead of 80 children, I’ve seen no children or already grown children or at least 3 or 4 kids.
And what do you do when wife #2 agrees? Let’s say you aren’t very satisfying to 2 women. Let’s say they want to go catch themselves a hunk? Maybe a guy a few years younger even? Why not? Why rationally not? I’m saying people change. So I’m pointing out that free votes can lead to a complete mess in terms of your relationship. So how do you control that? How do you control it fairly? Or wait. Why would you control that? Because fairness. Equality. Something something. Freedom. Whatever. :rolleyes:
Bringing in an additional partner without consent of all adults has the potential to be just as hurtful as a supposed monogamous wife or husband who cheats or starts dating someone other than their spouse. There should be no voting on this type of issue, but instead there should be a mutual agreement taking into considering the wants and feelings of all involved. All of what the husband or wife wants should be discussed beforehand, and if wife #1 gets mad because she agreed to have wife #2 and KNEW hubby would not be okay with a hubby #2, then the fault is on wife #1.

In this case, wife #1 is being selfish for expecting or wanting at any point for her husband to agree with her when she knew Beforehand what he wanted. I doubt wife #2 would leave if she really cared about wife #2 and husband #1 and the way they can support each other, but as a last resort wife #1 can leave if she doesn’t like it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top