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NewYorker
Guest
Israel is a religion specific state. Yet it stands in the way of others who seek to use the same methods they did to start a religon/cultural specific state.
Why is Pope Benedict supporting the UN's 'anti-racist' hatefest against Israel?
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reggieM
Guest
Here’s a strange thing. As Catholics, since Vatican II, we no longer profess that there can be a Catholic-specific state. The teaching on Religious Liberty abolished that notion (athough that point is debatable). From the perspective of the status quo Vatican teaching, we are opposed to religious/ethnic states as being against Catholic doctrine. We can’t establish a Catholic state and the last remaining Catholic states in the 20th century were abolished.
But then, for some reason, we have Catholics passionately supporting the religious/ethnic state of Israel. But they should be denouncing that state as being against Catholic teaching (even Vatican II’s teaching). But a double-standard is being used. People will reject the teaching of the Magisterium, even the liberalized teaching of Vatican II that abolishes religious-states, in favor of Israel.
Why? I think it’s a Protestant sola-scriptura attitude that many Catholics have. Maybe they were converted from the Protestant church and stick to this belief against the Magisterium (or as a fall-back position).
I can see that many feel rightfully very sorry for what happened to the Jewish people during WWII and they want to compensate for it. But we shouldn’t go against Catholic doctrine in order to make reparations. Actually, people think that they’re going to change Catholic doctrine, perhaps. Certainly, the idea that the Mosaic covenant is “still valid for the Jews” is a major change that goes beyond anything Vatican II taught. It actually dismantles the entire need and purpose of the Catholic Church and Christ’s sacrifice itself.
It’s like when someone is mourning the death of a loved one and decides to show sorrow by killing himself.
The suicide is not going to bring back the loved one. It’s not pleasing to God either.
Destroying Catholic doctrine to show that we’re sorry to the Jews is the same thing. It’s not the teaching of Christ that is evil, but the people who hated Jews and wanted to kill them that was the evil. There’s no support for that kind of thing in Catholic doctrine.
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chosen_people
Guest
First, Jews are a people not a race. A Jew from Ethiopia and a Jew from Russia are not the same race but they are equally Jewish. The Jewish people are bound together by a common history over more than three thousand years and a common covenant of Torah and God.
Whatever factor you use to determine a people’s right to self determination Israel has more of a right than any other nation on earth.
Israel is a democracy guaranteeing equal rights to all its citizens. The definition of a Jew in the Law of return is not the definition of a Jew under Jewish Law. It is the definition of a Jew in Nazi Germany.You have only to look to a country like Canada that closed its borders to Jews attempting to flee from the genocide against them, saying “no Jews are too many Jews” to understand that Israel will give sanctuary and citizenship to any Jew that does not endanger public health or safety. That does not mean that other people are not entitled to citizenship, either by birth or by application. Israel is not only a home to more refugees per capita than any other country including more than six hundred thousand Jews who fled from Arab lands it has also accepted and helped refugees from places such as Vietnam and the Darfur conflict.
It is distressing that a U.N. agency could hold a conference whose main speaker was a Holocaust denier who calls for the destruction of the state of Israel and whose country systematically persecutes woman and minorities. Stranger still that the Vatican would want to be associated with and to support such a conference.
Whatever factor you use to determine a people’s right to self determination Israel has more of a right than any other nation on earth.
Israel is a democracy guaranteeing equal rights to all its citizens. The definition of a Jew in the Law of return is not the definition of a Jew under Jewish Law. It is the definition of a Jew in Nazi Germany.You have only to look to a country like Canada that closed its borders to Jews attempting to flee from the genocide against them, saying “no Jews are too many Jews” to understand that Israel will give sanctuary and citizenship to any Jew that does not endanger public health or safety. That does not mean that other people are not entitled to citizenship, either by birth or by application. Israel is not only a home to more refugees per capita than any other country including more than six hundred thousand Jews who fled from Arab lands it has also accepted and helped refugees from places such as Vietnam and the Darfur conflict.
It is distressing that a U.N. agency could hold a conference whose main speaker was a Holocaust denier who calls for the destruction of the state of Israel and whose country systematically persecutes woman and minorities. Stranger still that the Vatican would want to be associated with and to support such a conference.
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NewYorker
Guest
What I have never understood is the Jews used terrorism to drive the British out and found their state. Now all they do is condemn the Palestinians for trying to do the same thing.
It seems like a double standard.
It seems like a double standard.
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chosen_people
Guest
The wing of the King David Hotel that was attacked was military headquarters for the Mandate. A warning was phoned in twenty minutes before the blast to allow a complete evacuation but was tragically ignored by British authorities. The Haganah, the main wing of the Jewish resistance, was so appalled by the loss of life that they broke off cooperation with the Irgun and even cooperated with the British against Irgun members. Israel’s fight for independence against the British Mandate, established by the League of Nations for the purpose of setting up a Jewish homeland, was aimed, with a few regrettable exceptions, exclusively at military targets for the purpose of independence. It was terrorism in the same way that the American revolution against the British was “terrorism”. Indiscriminate mass killing of civilian populations for the purpose of sewing fear in a non combatant population is terrorism. Walking onto a bus and killing all the men, women and children there because they are Jewish is terrorism and racism. I suggest you take the time time to read the Hamas charter then perhaps things will be more clear.
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reggieM
Guest
How do you know they are equally Jewish? How do you define it? If being Jewish has nothing to do with race or ethnicity, then is it just religious standards that define what a Jew is, right? If so, then the term “anti-Semitism” really would be meaningless. If being Jewish is not about race, then anybody who is anti-Jewish could not be called a racist.
There are atheists who consider themselves Jews (and receive awards from Jewish organizations for being Jews). But in general terms, I think people who embrace Judiasm should be considered bound together by their religion. After that, it’s a question of liberal, reformed, conservative or orthodox, etc.
As I pointed out, Catholic teaching condemns the establishment of religious/ethinic states. Catholics can’t even create a Catholic-state if they wanted to (according to a strict interpretation of Vatican II).
But more importantly, in the U.S. we try not to consider one ethnic or religious group as having more rights than another. So, we wouldn’t agree that Israel has more rights than any other nation (that follows our understanding of freedom and justice mainly).
As I pointed out, the govermnent decides the status of people in Israel based on ethnic/racial distinctions. This also is difficult for the U.S. to deal with (or should be) because our democracy supposedly opposes racial discrimination. Although, one could argue that affirmative action laws in the U.S. are race-oriented.
Interestingly – we might give extra support to Israel on the basis of affirmative action. That would sort of make sense - or at least be consistent.
As mentioned before, a dialogue requires different points of view from people we disagree with. If the Vatican only dialogued (and I question whether it is worth doing such) with people that supported the views of the Holy See, then there would never be a need to dialogue with any non-Catholic religion.
Hatred of the Jewish people is a very sinful thing for anyone to do or harbor in one’s heart.
I do not think strong opposition to the Jewish religion is a bad thing though, at all. Catholics are required to oppose errors. But we have to love the person at the same time that we oppose their theological errors.
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NewYorker
Guest
Why should the British have evacuated their military headquarters?
It seems the Americans in the Revolution fought in organized army units on open battlefields against British forces.
To me political assassinations and bombings by irregular forces are terrorism.
“First, Jews are a people not a race”
“Walking onto a bus and killing all the men, women and children there because they are Jewish is terrorism and racism.”
How is it racism then?
It seems the Americans in the Revolution fought in organized army units on open battlefields against British forces.
To me political assassinations and bombings by irregular forces are terrorism.
“First, Jews are a people not a race”
“Walking onto a bus and killing all the men, women and children there because they are Jewish is terrorism and racism.”
How is it racism then?
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tomarin
Guest
This might sound reasonable on paper, but in reality it is difficult to maintain this distinction. If you look at the many anti-muslim threads in the Non-Catholic Religions forum, for example, I think you will see that the Christian posters there don’t take any pains to make the distinction you’re making. I think it would be the same if we went back to “opposing the religion” of the Jews.
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maggiemay2u
Guest
While your point is a bit off topic, I’d like to respond. The Islamic faith in general, does little or nothing to condemn the nutballs within its ranks. A cry from American mosques to condemn the policies of Muslim leaders who call for the destruction of Israel and the driving of the Jews into the sea, would be a welcome signal that the believers of Islam weren’t sympathetic to the extremists. Each and every time a woman is beaten, here, or anywhere else, or a captive beheaded, there should be an outcry that reaches to the Islam heavens. The fatwas issued to murder dissenters should be met not only with condemnation but offers of safe haven within the mosques.
Our Islamic brothers have done little to promote themselves as a religion of peace. Outting members with extremist views and ceasing Sharia law education in schools would help. Much like the bishops have been castigated for not going far enough to stop, and later, apologize, for the scandals, so should the leaders of Islam.
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barb_finnegan
Guest
The UN is a ‘load of ****’, a ‘do-nothing’ cadre of blathering idiots…it doesn’t like the Vatican anyway because of its stand on abortion.It is at a gathering like this where the Church’s voice on human rights is needed more than any other place to announce the Gospel and the divine rights of men and women of every race and condition.
Fraternally,
JR
I have no idea why the Holy Father would support such an organization…
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NewYorker
Guest
Why should Muslims cease Sharia education? A legal system is a very important part of any society.
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grampben
Guest
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barb_finnegan
Guest
Another thing…if I were in attendance at that conference, I would have said this to the
‘man from the crazy house’ [that’s the meaning of the Iranian ‘leader’s’ last name]:
‘REMEMBER WHAT HAPPENED TO HAMAN IN THE BOOK OF ESTHER!’
For those who don’t know, Haman plotted the destruction of the Jews who lived in exile in ancient Persia [now Iran]. The Jewish Queen, Esther, found out about the plot and revealed it to her husband the King. Haman was hung on the ‘hangin’ tree’ that was meant for Mordechai, Esther’s uncle.
So Iran…don’t mess with the Jews! You won’t just get in trouble with Israel herself, but you’ll get in BIG TIME TROUBLE WITH GOD!
‘man from the crazy house’ [that’s the meaning of the Iranian ‘leader’s’ last name]:
‘REMEMBER WHAT HAPPENED TO HAMAN IN THE BOOK OF ESTHER!’
For those who don’t know, Haman plotted the destruction of the Jews who lived in exile in ancient Persia [now Iran]. The Jewish Queen, Esther, found out about the plot and revealed it to her husband the King. Haman was hung on the ‘hangin’ tree’ that was meant for Mordechai, Esther’s uncle.
So Iran…don’t mess with the Jews! You won’t just get in trouble with Israel herself, but you’ll get in BIG TIME TROUBLE WITH GOD!
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Ibnuntoon
Guest
Because Israel is a Racist and Predjutice Country. The Catholic Church is persecuted in Israel.
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reggieM
Guest
Yes, I agree that it’s very difficult to do it. But I think we’re called to take on these difficult tasks (not everyone is). Sadly, Christians often fail and we fall into sinful behaviors and actually hate people or turn against them. That is very wrong and we have to repent and do penance any time we have animosity towards people who are not of our faith.
I will agree that most of the time it is safer and better just to avoid people who oppose our Faith because the temptation to go against them personally is too strong.
For people who argue all the time on CAF, one of the worst and easiest sins to fall into is to begin to hate (or have personal animosity towards) others. We have to love our enemies. It takes far more strength to do that than most Catholics have.
I catch myself in that situation often and it’s quite bad. I don’t think the answer is to cover-up the errors of our enemies, but rather, walk away, pray and come back with humility.
I stepped away from CAF for the 40 days of Lent. I could see how hostile I was getting towards people. I hope I don’t fall into it again.
The same is true of our attitudes towards Jews, Muslims, atheists or others. We have to take the hostile words and personal insults and attacks on God with courage and modesty.
Much easier said than done though – true.
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maggiemay2u
Guest
Last time I checked, in the US we don’t stone people for disagreement. We also don’t hold that a father can murder his daughter for failing to comply with his choice of spouse.
If we are teaching in Islamic schools that Sharia law is not to be taken literally, and its extreme views are not consistent with the guarantee of equal protection and civil rights, fine, do it. Sadly, we have seen in the news these atrocities are not only taking place, the American Islamic faith community, remains mute.
There are brave Islamics who have spoken out against the madness, and had death fatwas issued for their efforts. I find it curious that you question only the Sharia law in schools, yet fail to address the real problem. The failure of the Islamic faith in the macro to condemn the brutality of their own.
As I previously mentioned, this dialogue is off topic. If you are interested in a discussion of Sharia Law in the US, please start a thread.
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tomarin
Guest
Surely part of the problem is that no one group or sect speaks for all of Islam – there is no Pope of Islam. I suspect (but can’t prove) that in Western countries the Islam practiced has accomodated itself somewhat to the norms that we consider “civilized,” so they are the ones most likely to condemn terror and anti-semitism (and probably some have). But even if they did, what would it prove? Most Muslims live in Muslim countries in Asia or Africa, and their point of view is probably closer to the “nutballs” on many issues even if they don’t agree with their methods.
I understand your point, though: it would reassure us if there were such loud public condemnations that Islam follows the same global norms that we do with respect to scientific rationality, women’s rights and religious tolerance. I think that at the moment in the Muslim world this would be seen as a capitulation to the West, unfortunately.
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maggiemay2u
Guest
Source, please.Because Israel is a Racist and Predjutice Country. The Catholic Church is persecuted in Israel.
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NewYorker
Guest
In your original post you did not say you were talking about Sharia law in the US.
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jimmy
Guest
It could also be asked why do so many Americans have such a love for Israel when their existence as a country is due to the theft of the land from its previous owners. The land was taken from the Palestinians and given to the zionists.
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