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Nicea325
Guest
You are very welcomed!
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drac16
Guest
Calling on someone, whether it be a deity or a person, is a dua-- and dua is a form of worship. Whenever duas are mentioned in the Qur’an, it is associated with worship. Therefore, the idea that you can make dua to someone/something without worshiping it is false. The arguments used for intercessory prayer today are more or less the same as the arguments used by the pagan arabs of the 7th century as well as the shias and the deviant sufis throughout history (i.e. “it brings us closer to God!”).
This practice was never sanctioned by God, though. Indeed, in our daily prayers, every muslim recites, “It is You we worship and You we ask for help” (surah 1:5). If praying to someone else is what you do, surat al-fatiha is no longer true in your life, thus making your salah void.
This practice was never sanctioned by God, though. Indeed, in our daily prayers, every muslim recites, “It is You we worship and You we ask for help” (surah 1:5). If praying to someone else is what you do, surat al-fatiha is no longer true in your life, thus making your salah void.
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Protestor
Guest
Most protestants have a problem with going through an intermediary to make petitions to their L-rd. So that in general is a problem for protestants, but it generally comes down to a problem of the word “to”. They normally do not object totally to praying “with” a saint or asking for saints to also pray for them. If you want to think of it this way it is kind of like asking a friend to pray for you. One person I know raised the objection that it isn’t right to even pray with a saint, because you don’t know if that saint is even listening. I am not sure what exactly I think about this subject on a whole? I think it is good to make sure your veneration or prayers do not become worship, but I think this happens way less than some protestants think.
May you bless G-d
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badnewsbarrett
Guest
Why not just take people’s word for it? Several reasons- one is that the main purpose of scientific inquiry is to take some of your beliefs and replace (or confirm) them with facts. Another reason is that, in tangentially related studies more generic to general Christian worship, basic theological points concerning God’s nature that all Christians believe in don’t necessarily correlate with a difference in how the brain acts in a worship setting. For example, God’s nature (triune omnipotent omnipresent deity) is very different from that of an average person to whom you’d talk on the phone. But there’s some very high-quality data across a spectrum of Christian faith-groups indicating that when we communicate something to God, the mental act is identical to that of talking on the phone to another person. We believe in these things about God, but we don’t seem to be able to come up with any special way of talking to Him that’s any different from talking to a regular person where the communication aspect is concerned.
This line of inquiry is not for Catholics alone, families of studies have been devoted to other lines of inquiry, Pentecostals/charismatics and the gift of tongues in particular. They claim to be speaking an angelic language; why don’t we just take their word for it? Well, basically, it’s possible they don’t know what they’re talking about and it may not be as true as some people would like it to be. As it turns out, the sounds coming out of people’s mouths when supposedly speaking this angelic language do not form anything like a coherent spoken language- it’s gibberish, and it’s not even gibberish that follows a pattern from person to person and place to place. Occasionally you will run into someone who claims the gift of translation, God gives them angelic words and their meanings. But these people don’t say the same things (I know one of these guys by the way, really great guy) from person to person and place to place.
It’s worth looking into because sometimes the evidence warrants a need to reevaluate what you’re doing. It’s important to do this because the unexamined, self-referential person is liable to be a bit stagnant and miss out on opportunities for improvement and personal growth.
I have no doubt that Catholics regard God as a very different being than Mary or the saints. I have absolutely no doubt that your intentions are good, and that you know God deserves a special latria that should only be reserved for Him. The thing that I question is whether you’ve come up with a special thing that your brain actually does differently from one thing to the next, and prior research indicates that in general, the activity of the human brain is not as agile and nuanced as our most deeply held beliefs, especially where spiritual matters largely outside our direct experience are concerned.
One more question before I finish this off- when comparing your brain giving latria to God vs. dulia to Mary/the saints- in the temporo-parietal region of the brain (most associated with Theory of Mind processing), is there any difference in how that’s activated or how it behaves? (There are other regions to look at, but this one’s important). Theory of Mind has to do with understanding the identity, nature, and ideation (attribution of mental states) of some entity outside yourself, the tricky part here is going to be in differentiating between one benevolent being who can know your thoughts and attempt to assist you in some way as compared to another all-powerful omni-benevolent being who always knows your thoughts and can do anything according to His will. When you use your brain to envision and address these people who are outside your direct personal experience- and then you also do so with that triune person whose nature we’re all incapable of fully grasping- do you really think that your brain is likely to do things any differently from one type of prayer to the next, regardless of the importance that you place on the finer distinctions between the people you’re addressing?
The reason I ask is because, please hear this, the things that you actually do when you pray are every bit as important as the things you generally believe about the people you pray to. Now that I think of it, the outcome that you might predict from this line of inquiry is not quite as foundationally important as coming to terms on that assertion. What you do when you pray is just as important as the things you believe about the various beings you pray to; please tell me we can come to some sort of agreement on that general concept. I truly hope that we can.
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SpeakKindly
Guest
I think that what we’re talking about has little to do with scientific evidence of brain activity. To worship is not just a chemical reaction or feeling. If I’m not intending to worship another being with what I do, then I’m not, regardless if the brain activity looks like I am on paper. What matters to God is the focus of our reverence due to Him, and that it’s not being given to others. Period.
I think you’re trying to hunt down the reaction we’re having during the conversations with others, and somehow use that to prove that whatever view you hold is justified. Science is indeed interesting and your questions are thought provoking, I admit, but I don’t think faith should be dictated directly by science, the two subjects go hand in hand, but I don’t think they intersect like that.
If you did look at my brain and it turns out that I am worshipping the Saints or Virgin Mary, then what? Would you really base your personal belief on what someone else is doing, be it right or wrong?
The Catholic Church says that asking the Saints and Virgin Mary for intercession is important for our faith, and that it’s good to do, and that only God is to be worshipped. That’s what Catholics are doing, and it’s part of a personal spiritual journey.
If you doubt they can hear us or something, then you doubt it.
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Telstar
Guest
I’m assuming that in the part I bolded, you’re referring to the bodies (corpses) of certain Saints that have been found to be ‘incorruptible’ when they were exhumed. (Please, correct me if I’m wrong.) This has been perceived as a sign that those particular Saints were very holy, since the embalming of bodies back in those days wasn’t the norm that it is, now. Since earthly corruption is considered by most Christians (as well as others) to be caused by sin, it would make sense that if a body remains in tact after many years of being buried, that the person must have lived a fairly sinless life. This is seen by Catholics as a confirmation that the person was indeed a very holy Saint. But, not all Saints’ bodies have been found to be incorruptible, so it’s not necessarily the only evidence that a Saint lived a truly holy life. There are a lot of other factors that must also be considered.
I believe the loss of the knowledge and understanding of sainthood might actually be a serious detriment to our Protestant brethren, especially those that don’t have any real connection to saints remaining in their churches. I’m certainly not saying that they can’t have a deep spiritual life, but that it may be more difficult for them without having the many examples that Catholics have in the lives of the Saints. Studying their love of God (particularly seen in their complete devotion to Jesus), their lives and their holiness, is an excellent way for us to learn how to draw closer to God and become more holy, ourselves. It also teaches us that we should all love and trust in God, just like they did.
One of the main spiritual components, common to all great Saints, is their deep and abundant prayer life. Since so many of them were religious (belonging to a religious order, as in monks & nuns), their life was mainly focused on their prayer life. They didn’t have all of the other distractions of life that the rest of us do, with families. A lot can be said about their choice to remove themselves from those distractions so they could focus more on God (but, that’s a subject for another thread). But, not all Saints were members of religious communities, either.
The common thread is always the same, though. They all had a great devotion to prayer. While Catholic prayer may include prayers to the angels and Saints, it’s main object is always God, first and foremost. Without God, there would be no saints, at all, because no one can ever hope to become holy without following Him. Catholic prayers to the Saints have no detrimental effect on our relationship with God. It actually brings us closer to Him, because all Catholic prayer starts with prayers to God (in the form of the Our Father, or the Apostle’s Creed, etc.). It’s never just about the Saints. It’s always about God, first. I think that’s something that people outside the Church don’t realize, so they think we choose to pray to the Saints instead of God, but that’s not true.
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MartinJordan
Guest
The wrong thing to do is to assume when people ask someone to pray for them, is that they are worshiping that person. It’s far, way far from the truth and hundreds of years from reality.
Only those ignorant enough of historical facts, that in Christianity this practice has been around from the beginning from people who loved God with all their heart, soul and might and gladly suffered for it.
MJ
Only those ignorant enough of historical facts, that in Christianity this practice has been around from the beginning from people who loved God with all their heart, soul and might and gladly suffered for it.
MJ
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adawgj
Guest
I think it’s the way of veneration that makes one think of worship. For example statues and prayer candles and icons.
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MartinJordan
Guest
Yes. The thing is those who feel it is worship, could be actually idolizing film stars, soccer teams and players etc at the same time.
MJ
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adf417
Guest
Exactly!Yes. The thing is those who feel it is worship, could be actually idolizing film stars, soccer teams and players etc at the same time.
MJ
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MartinJordan
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ericc
Guest
At the end of all of it, isn’t intent (mind/heart) the deciding factor? If I intend to worship God and I don’t intend to worship Mary and the Saints, no one knows it better than God himself.
There is no point in worshiping with words when the heart is far away from God. Mat 15:8
Some may not understand why people when asking for something go through it in an indirect manner. Of course we can pray direct to God. Of course we can also pray/ask friends/Mother of God who can "put in a good word for us " in a manner of speaking. Perhaps in certain culture, the direct approach is the preferred means. But there are also cultures where going through intermediaries is the cultural norm, especially when the requester feels embarassed/not worthy/feel insignificant to speak direct to God/Emperor/King/Minister etc.
There is no point in worshiping with words when the heart is far away from God. Mat 15:8
Some may not understand why people when asking for something go through it in an indirect manner. Of course we can pray direct to God. Of course we can also pray/ask friends/Mother of God who can "put in a good word for us " in a manner of speaking. Perhaps in certain culture, the direct approach is the preferred means. But there are also cultures where going through intermediaries is the cultural norm, especially when the requester feels embarassed/not worthy/feel insignificant to speak direct to God/Emperor/King/Minister etc.
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adf417
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CatholicKnight3
Guest
Lets make something clear that is a big confusion among protestants in regards to Catholics praying “to saints.” First of all, there is ONE mediator. No argument there. Christ is the ONE mediator. However, there are many intercessors. Any time YOU pray for someone, you are interceding. Whenever you ask someone to pray for you, you are not praying to that person. You are in fact praying to Christ THROUGH intercessory prayer.
That brings me to the false notion that protestants accuse Catholics of praying to “dead people.” First of all, those that die in Christ are not dead at all. That is affirmed in several places in scripture. The dead rose out of their graves when Christ died. There are inferences of the Saints and angels making prayers to the throne in the form of incense.
To deny the Saints are alive is essentially calling Christ a liar. No other way to put it, since all of this is based on the very promises from Christ.
No, this is our affirmation of Christs words by recognizing a communion with saints. It is too bad that protestants deny themselves these sorts of riches that has been offered freely from a God whose intentions was to establish the Kingdom as a family. Christ refers to God as Father. Followers as brothers and sisters in Christ. This is the image and images that are burned on our minds.
Hence, the whole eternal reason for Jesus to be born through a woman at all. When Christ says to the disciple whom He loves to…BEHOLD YOUR MOTHER, those are eternal words. We cannot sit and say EVERYTHING ELSE Christ said was eternal except for those words. It is one of the last things He says, and one of the last things He gives before He gives up His life. You cannot just say.,…well those words were not eternal. Considering when it is affirmed in Revelation 12:17. The entire chapter refers to the woman that gave birth to Christ. It shows the devil pursuing the woman. It says…“The devil became enraged and went off to wage war against the REST OF HER OFFSPRING, ALL of those who BEAR WITNESS to Christ and keep His commandments.”
Combine that with what the Lord says from the cross to the disciple who is BEARING WITNESS and KEEPING HIS COMMANDMENTS. Those words from Christ are ALSO ETERNAL.
We can get into how the church is infallible as the Bible is infallible. You see, that is also another confusion. The Bible was written through FALLIBLE men. Through sinners. Do no think that was not intentional either. All of the gospels are infallible and just as the Holy Spirit guides those that wrote the scripture, is the same Holy Spirit that guides the Church which is the pillar of truth. (1st Timothy 3:15)
If all you see is the sin through the sinners then you might as well only look at the sin of the sinners that wrote the Bible. It is the exact same thing. It is human temptation.
Again, the reason why the Pope called protestants wounded Christians is because of the denials of all these riches that has been given unto us though Christ.
We can get into the notion that protestants actually think it is sinful to study saints in the past. They are quick to boast that they themselves are saints. Again, another dangerous road. When we start to boast that WE are saints, well watch out. Saints (true Saints) never boast of such things. In fact during the Last Supper, all of the disciples boasted that they would never betray Christ. Most of them said it to themselves and Peter openly exalted himself when proclaimed he would never betray. (That he was a Saint)
Only ONE disciple did not do this. One of them leaned on Christs chest and asked if it was him that was going to betray when he asked…“Who is it?” Not coincidentally, it was that disciple that was at the foot of the cross BEARING WITNESS. In fact that was such a poignant moment when he reclined at the table, Peter later asked Christ after the resurrection about that disciple that reclined at the table.
DO not boast about being a Saint. There are a lot of false teachings, and a lot of the pointing fingers. I would consider researching some things.
That brings me to the false notion that protestants accuse Catholics of praying to “dead people.” First of all, those that die in Christ are not dead at all. That is affirmed in several places in scripture. The dead rose out of their graves when Christ died. There are inferences of the Saints and angels making prayers to the throne in the form of incense.
To deny the Saints are alive is essentially calling Christ a liar. No other way to put it, since all of this is based on the very promises from Christ.
No, this is our affirmation of Christs words by recognizing a communion with saints. It is too bad that protestants deny themselves these sorts of riches that has been offered freely from a God whose intentions was to establish the Kingdom as a family. Christ refers to God as Father. Followers as brothers and sisters in Christ. This is the image and images that are burned on our minds.
Hence, the whole eternal reason for Jesus to be born through a woman at all. When Christ says to the disciple whom He loves to…BEHOLD YOUR MOTHER, those are eternal words. We cannot sit and say EVERYTHING ELSE Christ said was eternal except for those words. It is one of the last things He says, and one of the last things He gives before He gives up His life. You cannot just say.,…well those words were not eternal. Considering when it is affirmed in Revelation 12:17. The entire chapter refers to the woman that gave birth to Christ. It shows the devil pursuing the woman. It says…“The devil became enraged and went off to wage war against the REST OF HER OFFSPRING, ALL of those who BEAR WITNESS to Christ and keep His commandments.”
Combine that with what the Lord says from the cross to the disciple who is BEARING WITNESS and KEEPING HIS COMMANDMENTS. Those words from Christ are ALSO ETERNAL.
We can get into how the church is infallible as the Bible is infallible. You see, that is also another confusion. The Bible was written through FALLIBLE men. Through sinners. Do no think that was not intentional either. All of the gospels are infallible and just as the Holy Spirit guides those that wrote the scripture, is the same Holy Spirit that guides the Church which is the pillar of truth. (1st Timothy 3:15)
If all you see is the sin through the sinners then you might as well only look at the sin of the sinners that wrote the Bible. It is the exact same thing. It is human temptation.
Again, the reason why the Pope called protestants wounded Christians is because of the denials of all these riches that has been given unto us though Christ.
We can get into the notion that protestants actually think it is sinful to study saints in the past. They are quick to boast that they themselves are saints. Again, another dangerous road. When we start to boast that WE are saints, well watch out. Saints (true Saints) never boast of such things. In fact during the Last Supper, all of the disciples boasted that they would never betray Christ. Most of them said it to themselves and Peter openly exalted himself when proclaimed he would never betray. (That he was a Saint)
Only ONE disciple did not do this. One of them leaned on Christs chest and asked if it was him that was going to betray when he asked…“Who is it?” Not coincidentally, it was that disciple that was at the foot of the cross BEARING WITNESS. In fact that was such a poignant moment when he reclined at the table, Peter later asked Christ after the resurrection about that disciple that reclined at the table.
DO not boast about being a Saint. There are a lot of false teachings, and a lot of the pointing fingers. I would consider researching some things.
T
Telstar
Guest
The best example of why we should pray to Jesus through Mary is found in the Gospel of John.
**John 2:"[1] And the third day, there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee: and the mother of Jesus was there. [2] And Jesus also was invited, and his disciples, to the marriage. [3] And the wine failing, the mother of Jesus saith to him: They have no wine. [4] And Jesus saith to her: Woman, what is that to me and to thee? my hour is not yet come. [5] His mother saith to the waiters: Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye.
[6] Now there were set there six waterpots of stone, according to the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three measures apiece. [7] Jesus saith to them: Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim. [8] And Jesus saith to them: Draw out now, and carry to the chief steward of the feast. And they carried it. [9] And when the chief steward had tasted the water made wine, and knew not whence it was, but the waiters knew who had drawn the water; the chief steward calleth the bridegroom, [10] And saith to him: Every man at first setteth forth good wine, and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse. But thou hast kept the good wine until now."**
This was the very first miracle that Jesus performed during His public life, and it was facilitated through Mary’s request. Even though Jesus told her it was not yet His time, He still did what she asked of Him. Like any good son, He obeyed her request, not only out of respect but because He loves her. There are many things that can be learned from this incident, but one of the most significant is the relationship between Jesus and His Mother. He clearly doesn’t like to say no to her.
So, if we want to pray to Jesus for something, it makes sense to have Mary ask Him for us. That’s what we do when we pray to Mary. Considering the facts that CatholicKnight made in the above post, about Jesus giving us His Mother to be our Mother, it’s obvious that He was telling us that we should also treat her as such. After all, she truly is the Mother of God (Jesus), and our Mother through adoption.
Along those same lines, since the Church is the ‘family’ of God (both on earth and in Heaven), then it also makes sense to ask our brothers & sisters that followed Jesus so closely during their lives on earth, to also pray to Jesus for us. They’re not dead. They’re very much alive in Christ. He proved it when He was transfigured to the three Apostles, and Elias & Moses also appeared to them. They are Saints in Heaven, just as the Saints that Catholics pray to.
**John 2:"[1] And the third day, there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee: and the mother of Jesus was there. [2] And Jesus also was invited, and his disciples, to the marriage. [3] And the wine failing, the mother of Jesus saith to him: They have no wine. [4] And Jesus saith to her: Woman, what is that to me and to thee? my hour is not yet come. [5] His mother saith to the waiters: Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye.
[6] Now there were set there six waterpots of stone, according to the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three measures apiece. [7] Jesus saith to them: Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim. [8] And Jesus saith to them: Draw out now, and carry to the chief steward of the feast. And they carried it. [9] And when the chief steward had tasted the water made wine, and knew not whence it was, but the waiters knew who had drawn the water; the chief steward calleth the bridegroom, [10] And saith to him: Every man at first setteth forth good wine, and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse. But thou hast kept the good wine until now."**
This was the very first miracle that Jesus performed during His public life, and it was facilitated through Mary’s request. Even though Jesus told her it was not yet His time, He still did what she asked of Him. Like any good son, He obeyed her request, not only out of respect but because He loves her. There are many things that can be learned from this incident, but one of the most significant is the relationship between Jesus and His Mother. He clearly doesn’t like to say no to her.
So, if we want to pray to Jesus for something, it makes sense to have Mary ask Him for us. That’s what we do when we pray to Mary. Considering the facts that CatholicKnight made in the above post, about Jesus giving us His Mother to be our Mother, it’s obvious that He was telling us that we should also treat her as such. After all, she truly is the Mother of God (Jesus), and our Mother through adoption.
Along those same lines, since the Church is the ‘family’ of God (both on earth and in Heaven), then it also makes sense to ask our brothers & sisters that followed Jesus so closely during their lives on earth, to also pray to Jesus for us. They’re not dead. They’re very much alive in Christ. He proved it when He was transfigured to the three Apostles, and Elias & Moses also appeared to them. They are Saints in Heaven, just as the Saints that Catholics pray to.
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zz912
Guest
There is much truth to this.
In the Protestant world, they don’t have the Eucharist. And many do not even have or perform their own version of communion. And most do not recognize this as the highest form of worship. This is especially true in low-church or less liturgical denominations. So the highest form of worship they can perform is prayer.
Since prayer is the highest form of worship they can offer, they have, over time, equated prayer as reserved to God alone. They want to make their worship special, so they only give prayer to Him.
What they completely don’t comprehend is there even IS a higher form of worship than prayer.
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zz912
Guest
What does brain activity have to do with an act of the will such as worship? Your emotional state doesn’t change the nature of your actions (unless you factor in someone being there in “bad faith”, which is not what we’re discussing). If you are worshipping God, then you are worshipping God. If you’re sad while doing so, you’ve still worshipped God. If you’re happy, you’ve still worshipped God. If your brain is alive with energy, you’ve still worshipped God. And if your brain is quiet and serene, you’ve still worshipped God.
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Sabacthani
Guest
Praying is a form of worship, no question.
I don’t personally pray to the saints, but I don’t consider it to be idolatry, since I recognize that most of you are worshiping God by praying to the Saints.
Am I in error?
S
SyroMalankara
Guest
Praying can be a form of worship. Or it can be conversation. Or a request. Or intercession. Or all of the above.
C
CatholicKnight3
Guest
What they do though, is pray for others, and ask others to pray for them. Which to a Catholic is precisely what we are doing when we “pray to saints.” Which btw, if we want to be technical is not what we are doing.
Praying to Christ, through Saints is the more accurate way to state what is actually happening. In the Hail Mary, all we are doing in the first part is reciting scripture. In the second part we acknowledge that Jesus is Lord, by stating Holy Mary, mother of God…and it ends with…PRAY FOR US SINNERS.
Now, I have come across and spoken with protestants that state that Catholics pray “to dead people” and that is a sin. Well, as I stated in my long winded post, it is not dead people we pray to. Christ said in His own words that those who die in Him are alive.
This is also confirmed by John when he granted the heavenly vision of the Mass. In Revelation 5:8…
*He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne. 8When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. *
Also in Revelation 8:4
*3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel’s hand.
*
We can see the images of the Saints making constant prayer to God in the form of incense.
This affirms they are indeed alive, just as Christ promised. So, when protestant makes an accusation that Catholics are praying to dead people, one I say they are alive in Christ as Christ promised, and we are praying to Christ through their intercessory prayer.
The main confusion is they confuse ONE mediator, with MANY intercessors. There is one MEDIATOR and MANY intercessors. They equate those words. Which, is the misunderstanding.
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