Why is predestination wrong

[SHW]

Hi,I was wondering about,Romans:8:29-30 Eph:1:5,1:11 What do you think? Nancy Thank You

Romans 29-30 “For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.”

Those whom He foreknew who would still be knowing God and obeying God at their deaths through their own free will actions; these persons He predestined for eternal life. Since they were predestined according to this foreknowledge of every action of their lives, He then called them, justified them at their baptisms, and glorified them after their deaths because He foreknew that they also died in sanctifying grace.

Ephesians 1:5 “having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will”

Paul is speaking to persons whom he thinks to be the “elect” and they are the “elect” if they continue in their obedience to God until their deaths. We must “follow” Christ in imitation of Him. Jesus did the will of His Father (He obeyed Him and He produced good fruit) until His death and so must we, if we desire to inherit eternal life. (cf. Matthew 7:21, John 5:30, John 6:44, John 14:21, John 15:10, John 15:7-9, Matthew 7:19, James 2:17)

Ephesians 1:11 “In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,”

Paul assumes that all the persons, that he is writing to, are going to die in sanctifying grace. And if they die in sanctifying grace, then they are fulfilling God’s purpose for them because God desires (wills) that all men come to the knowledge of the truth and He sent Jesus to die as a ransom for all men so that they could inherit eternal life. (cf. 1 Timothy 2:3-6) God prepared a plan (purpose) for our salvation and if we cooperate with His plan, then we will be saved. We can thwart His will by insisting that our own will be done (sin and damnation) instead of His will for us (obedience and eternal life).

God’s sovereign will is for us to have free will so that we can freely love Him or reject Him. It is our choice. If we cooperate with His will for us, then we will be saved. He gives all of us all of the graces necessary to be saved but not all of us will take advantage of His graces. Some of us will reject these graces and be lost.

Blessings to you,
SHW

 

[SHW]

No, no, no, no. God doesn’t say that He saves only those that preservere to the end. He says that HE WILL save those, and that no one can pluck them out of His hand.

Matthew 10:22 “And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end (of his life) will be saved.”

Hebrews 10:36 “For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:”

We must endure to the end of our lives “in Christ” in order to actually receive our “promise” of eternal life.

He also says, in Romans 8, that there is an unbroken progression of His will which begins with

foreknowledge - This is God’s knowledge being the result of declaring His actions will be carried out as He has predetermined

Foreknowledge is knowledge of an event (action) before it happens. It does not determine the action.

predestination - This is God’s declaring His actions will be carried out

We are predestined according to (because of) His foreknowledge of all of our “works” or actions while we are alive on earth. He knew before we were created whether we would inherit eternal life or not. Our salvation or damnation depends on our own free will actions. He predestined us according to His foreknowledge (before our creation) of our free will actions while we are alive. (1 Peter 1:2)

Calling - This is God’s election, which is carried out according to His foreknowledge by His determinative will

God desires (wills) all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth and Jesus died as a ransom for all. (1 Timothy 2:3-6) Yet not all men are saved. They are not all saved because they use their God-given free wills to reject God’s plan for their salvation.

Justification - This is the process whereby God renders His elect guiltless of any crime

First we are justified through faith and Baptism. (Acts 22:16) Then we must continue to be justified until our deaths by obeying God’s commandments and producing good fruits. Jesus reconciled us to God first. He had to do this first in order for us to be saved from the consequences of Adam’s sin (death of the body and loss of eternal life, etc.). We then must use our own free wills to remain reconciled to Him. We must endure to the end of our lives “in Christ.” To be “in Christ” means to obey His commandments and produce good fruits in imitation of Him.

Glorification - This is a continual process which will result in complete restoration and Glory with God in His presence.

Whatever state our souls are in at our deaths determines our eternal state as far as rewards are concerned. We gain no merits after death. However, we are purified by fire in purgatory of all our venial sins because nothing impure can enter heaven.(cf. 1 Corinthians 3:15), 1 John 3:3, James 1:27)

What is so significant about this is that this unbroken chain of events in a believer’s life is just as good as DONE. It is a fantastic picture of hope that God has given to us.

What’s more, we can rejoice with Paul when he says:

[SIGN]“What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?”[/SIGN]

Exactly. Why should any Christian ever fear the evil one, when we have a God who WILL perform His will in our lives, and will not leave us or forsake us? Our salvation is sure.

God gives us all the graces necessary in order to remain “in Christ.”

2 Corinthians 5:17 “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.”

Christ reconciles us to God through our faith and baptism. We are now “in Christ.”

Ephesians 2:10 “For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.”

“Should” is a command.

1 Peter 5:8-9 “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. 9 Resist him, steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same sufferings are experienced by your brotherhood in the world.” (cf. Ephesians 6:10-12, 1 Timothy 3:5-7, 2 Timothy 2:25-26, James 4:7)

IF the devil devours you, you are no longer saved.

God never leaves us or forsakes us. However, we can leave and forsake Him (deny Him). If we deny Him, then He will deny us. His denial is a consequence of our own free will action of denying Him. He forces no one to love Him or to be saved.

Matthew 10:33 “But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.”

Titus 1:16 “They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.”

If a person is not going to be saved at the end of their lives, then he/she never ever gets placed into the Father’s hand in the first place. God knew before we were born whether we would inherit eternal life or not inherit eternal life by our own free will actions. He knew this by His foreknowledge. He predestined us in response to this foreknowledge.

Blessings to you,
SHW

 

[SHW]

Jesus founded the Church, not anybody else.

True. But He gives His authority to this one Church (builds His Church upon Peter as head, and the Apostles also), to be His authority on earth, since He was returning to His Father in heaven.

Matthew 16:18 “And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.”

Nothing will prevail against His Church. Remember that Satan is constantly on the prowl trying to devour us, Christ’s Church members. But Satan will never defeat Christ’s Church. Christ is with His Church always and He has sent the Holy Spirit to guide it. People choose different doctrines and leave His Church but Christ never leaves it nor forsakes it because He is with it always. If, as some persons assert, Christ’s Church changed its doctrine(s) over the centuries, then Satan and Hades prevailed. However, Jesus states that this is an impossibility. His Church’s doctrine never changes. He will not allow it.

Matthew 28:18-20 “And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.”

He promises to be with His (one) Church until the end of time.

Luke 10:16 "He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.”

He also states that if persons do not listen to those in authority in His one church, then they are in effect, rejecting His Church, and also rejecting Him and His Father. Christ only established one Church. Non-Catholic Christians are separated brethren because they are separated (either knowingly or unknowingly) from Christ’s (one) Church. He did not establish any other Christian churches with “other” doctrines. These churches were all established by men, not Him.

Paul curses those who change doctrine.

Galatians 1:8 “But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.”

I wrote a Scripture Study called Jesus Builds His Church and if you’d like to, you can read it at members.cox.net/studyhisword/JesusBuildsHisChurch.pdf. It has many Scriptures which pertain to this subject.

Blessings to you,
SHW

 

[PEPCIS]

"PEPCIS:

No, no, no, no. God doesn’t say that He saves only those that preservere to the end. He says that HE WILL save those, and that no one can pluck them out of His hand.

Matthew 10:22

“And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end (of his life) will be saved.”

Yes, we all know that we are commanded to “endure to the end.” But the difference is that you claim that man has the power to do this, while I insist that the Bible clearly shows that only God can perform this for man.

That is why Jesus says:

[SIGN]“I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.” (John 10:28)[/SIGN]

Something that you keep on avoiding is the reconciliation of these two passages. Why is it that Jesus says one thing, but God says another? Are they schizophrenic? Or, does it mean something which is more consistent with other verses?

For example, who is it that will endure to the end? Those who are God’s elect.

SHW:

Hebrews 10:36 “For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:”

We must endure to the end of our lives “in Christ” in order to actually receive our “promise” of eternal life.

True. But who is it that will endure? Only God’s elect. Who are God’s elect? Those whom God has foreseen from before the foundation of the world. Who are those that God has foreseen from before the foundation of the world? Those whom God has predestined to believe. Who are those whom God has predestined to believe? Those whom He has chosen, “who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but by God alone.”

Do we endure through our power? No, only through the power of Christ working in me.

SHW:

Foreknowledge is knowledge of an event (action) before it happens. It does not determine the action.

Wrong. Foreknowledge is much more intimate than that. The word for “know” is used throughout the Bible to indicate intimacy. “Adam knew his wife, Eve.” (Genesis 4:1) “Send them out so that we may know them.” (Genesis 19:5)

I do not believe that God pre-ordains all things, but I do believe that there are certain key things that God does. For example, the crucifixion of Christ. Another would be the elect of God. God doesn’t leave those things up to chance.

SHW:

We are predestined according to (because of) His foreknowledge of all of our “works” or actions while we are alive on earth.

That’s impossible, because then it makes man the determiner of his own destiny. Man, of his own accord, would never choose God. We choose God BECAUSE He first chose/loved us. 1 John 4:19

 

[SHW]

Yes, we all know that we are commanded to “endure to the end.” But the difference is that you claim that man has the power to do this, while I insist that the Bible clearly shows that only God can perform this for man.

Man has the power to do this when he chooses to cooperate with God’s grace. He does not do it alone. However, he can also reject God’s grace and he will therefore not endure to the end “in Christ.” Man chooses. God judges our choices.

Philippians 2:12-13 “Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.”

When we are baptized, then the Holy Spirit moves into and then abides in our temples (souls) and we then cooperate with His grace in order to do good works. He resides there until and unless we defile our temples with mortal sin. If we commit a sin which makes our soul “dead” then He leaves. (1 Corinthians 6:11, 1 Corinthians 3:16-18)

That is why Jesus says:

[SIGN]“I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.” (John 10:28)[/SIGN]

Something that you keep on avoiding is the reconciliation of these two passages. Why is it that Jesus says one thing, but God says another? Are they schizophrenic? Or, does it mean something which is more consistent with other verses?

**All **Scripture is true. But not all of the truth about a subject is necessarily in each passage. These letters (epistles) were written as a supplement to oral teaching, not as a substitute.

So, if one verse states: “Believe and be saved.” This is a true statement. However, if another verse states: “Be baptized and you will be saved.” This is also a true statement. So we must both believe and be baptized in order to be saved. Find every verse which pertains to the subject being studied, put them all together and you will have a good idea of what the oral teaching was. Jesus told them to go out and preach. He did not tell them to go out and write a Bible. They did compile a book of their own written works and of Old Testament Scriptures to use as a tool for the Church. (2 Timothy 3:16) The Bible was never meant to replace oral teaching.

So, if you read all the verses which pertain to Salvation, then you will find that God, according to His foreknowledge of our free will choices, never put anyone into Christ’s hand who was not going to be saved in the end. So, if you were placed into God’s hand because of His foreknowledge, then you could not ever be snatched out.

We do not know for sure if we are “in Jesus’ hand” or not but God knew before He created us whether He would place us into His hand. He determined whether to place us into His hand by foreseeing and foreknowing all of our free will actions of our entire lives. If He foresaw that we endured to the end of our lives “in Christ” and died with sanctifying grace in our souls, then and only then did He place us into His hand when we were actually born. That is why the Scripture is true. “No one can snatch us out of His hand.” We do not get placed into His hand unless we are going to inherit eternal life.

to be continued…

 

[benedictus2]

God’s design remains the same, no matter what. However, man takes God’s design and then modifies it to his liking. You want to call that “interpretation of God’s design”, then that’s fine with me.

Let’s put it this way. You are the main architect and “designed” a super duper sate of the art stadium. If the little workers somewhow did not follow your orders and messed up some of the processes making a rather, shabily built stadium. Your “design” does not change. The end result is not exactly to the standards but your “plan”, your “design” remains the same that, you want to build a stadium. Clear enough?

With regards, salvation God’s plan to save all men remains the same. But the end result might not be the same because He gave us Free Will. And because of that free will, WE can choose to follow His Will or not.

It is not Him who changed His mind and suddenly decided to chuck the other portion of mankind to hell. Rather it is man who willfully chooses to be in Hell by disobeying God.

If “Man is unable to change that design”, then why is it that he has changed God’s design and perverted it into something that God never intended?

It is not the design that changed but the results as I have explained above. Although I have doubts about that as well.

The analogy that I always give is that of the GPS. If you have a Sat Nav in your car and you punch in your destination it gives you the optimal way to get from A to B.

It is similar with salvaton. God has laid out THE PLAN that gives you the direction. The PLAN is to get you to Heaven. Now you may take wrong turns and end up in dead ends, but like the Sat Nav He reconfigures the directions everytime you miss a turn to make sure that you get to B. Now the route you may have taken make look like a chicken’s gut but the PLAN remains the same and that is to get you to HEAVEN.

Just because we sin does not change God design to get us to union with Him. That is why He sent His Son. Because He is determined that we will not thwart His plan.

The answer is simple, because man changed (exchanged) God’s design for his own design.

Man made a design of his own, but that does not change God’s design.

Hardly. The Bible tells us that man “changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.”

We cannot CHANGE the truth of God. No one change the TRUTH OF GOD because God’s TRUTH IS NOT SUBJECT TO MAN.

Man doesn’t want God’s original design, so they take God’s design and modify it, or they outright reject it wholesale in preference of their own design.

We cannot modify God’s design because it is not up to us to modify it. I know what you are trying to get at but you need to bring in Free Will into your thinking before you will start making sense.

But in the end, I don’t see that we disagree. Unless you WANT to disagree.

It is not about agreeing or disagreeing. We are to ferret out the TRUTH and TRUTH is not subjective.

 

[SHW]

Originally posted by Pepcis: "But who is it that will endure? Only God’s elect. Who are God’s elect? Those whom God has foreseen from before the foundation of the world. Who are those that God has foreseen from before the foundation of the world? Those whom God has predestined to believe. Who are those whom God has predestined to believe? Those whom He has chosen, “who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but by God alone.”

“Do we endure through our power? No, only through the power of Christ working in me.”

originally posted by SHW: “Those who are God’s elect will endure to the end. How do they become God’s elect? They became God’s elect when He predestined them in His foreknowledge.”

Originally posted by Pepcis: "Wrong. Foreknowledge is much more intimate than that. The word for “know” is used throughout the Bible to indicate intimacy. “Adam knew his wife, Eve.” (Genesis 4:1) “Send them out so that we may know them.” (Genesis 19:5)

There is a big difference in the meanings of these two terms. Foreknowledge simply means “knowledge of something before it happens or exists;”

Know in Genesis 4:1means participating in a conjugal act. “Know” in Genesis 19:5 means to participate in non-conjugal sex.

The Genesis accounts of “know” were participatory.

God foresaw and foreknew what was going to happen, He did not cause it to happen.

I do not believe that God pre-ordains all things, but I do believe that there are certain key things that God does. For example, the crucifixion of Christ. Another would be the elect of God. God doesn’t leave those things up to chance.

Man, of his own accord, would never choose God. We choose God BECAUSE He first chose/loved us. 1 John 4:19

The reason that Christ was foreordained is because God foresaw with His foreknowledge that Adam was going to sin and that we would become God’s enemies through Adam’s free will action. So, God decided to have mercy on us and to give us a way to be reconciled to Him again and so He sent His own Son as our Savior whom we could accept or reject using our own free will actions.

God judges us without partiality according to each one’s works:

1 Peter 1:17-21 “And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear; 18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.”

It is true that God first called all of us because He desires for all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth, He provided a way for this to happen. He sent His Son as a ransom for all. (1 Timothy 2:3-6) However, after He called us to be His chosen people, some of us rejected Him. So, the actual chosen are those who answered His call and endured to the end of their lives in sanctifying grace.

Matthew 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen.”

In this case, “many” means the same as “all.” Another example of this usage is Matthew 26:28 “For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” We know that in 1 Timothy 2:3-6 that Jesus died as a ransom for “all.” Sometimes these terms are used interchangeably.

Salvation is very confusing because it happens in two different dimensions: eternity first and then earth time.

First it happened in God’s foreknowledge, then it happens again in earth time.

God predestined us in eternity because He foresaw what we would do while we were actually living on earth. It was according to His foreknowledge of all of our actions on earth, that we were either predestined to eternal life or condemned to hell. We are all judged according to our works and God judges without partiality. We decide to choose God or not, depending on our own free will choices. God knows right now who will be saved and who will not. We will not know for sure if we are saved until we die. That is why we have “hope.” Not guarantee, hope. (1 Thessalonians 5:8)

God knows who His elect are and He placed them into His hand, never to be snatched out. All of our own free will actions of our entire lives were foreseen and foreknown by God and these “works” determined whether He placed us into His hand or not. We are His elect if we are in His hand. But we don’t personally know if we are in His hand. If we are obeying God’s commandments and producing good fruit, then we can have confidence that Jesus will save us.

Hebrews 3:6 “but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.”

Blessings to you,
SHW

 

[benedictus2]

Why do you say that? How could this mean that Adam thwarted God’s plan?

When someone makes something impossible for you to do, that someone has thwarted your plan.

All it means is that Adam’s sin had consequences.

If that is all you had said, you would have been right on the money.

God’s plans continue on just as they were originally determined from before the foundation of the world.

VOILA! Finally you see the light. This is the point I have been making all this time!
But you said that man changed God’s plan. If man did that then how can His plan continue to the end of the world?
This is why I keep saying you need to see how illogical your statements are because they contradict each other.

The error is in your insistence that I am claiming something that I am not. I am not, nor have I ever tried to say that Adam’s sin will make it impossible for God’s plan to come to fruition.

But you said “**man made it impossible for God to save all men.” **How can God’s plan come into fruition when man already made that IMPOSSIBLE for God to accomplish?
I think your biggest problem is using terminologies like IMPOSSIBLE. You need to re-think the way you phrase your statements because end up contradicting yourself.
As I said in my previous post, you need to start bringing in Free Will and Grace in your posts to ensure coherence.

benedictus:

*Let’s make that simpler. If Batman’s plan is to rid Gotham City of crime but the Joker make it IMPOSSIBLE for Batman to implement that plan, who is more powerful then, Batman or the Joker? *

You did not answer my question above. So I ask again, in this instance who is more powerful, Batman or the Joker.

Let’s make it simpler than that. When God created Adam and Eve, His original intention was to enjoy His creation. When Adam fell into sin, God’s plan was not foiled, because He foresaw this, and allowed it to occur within His plan.

Hallelujah! PRECISELY MY POINT. Man DID NOT AND CAN NOT MAKE IT IMPOSSIBLE FOR GOD TO SAVE US ALL.

I never said that they did. I cited those verses to establish that God’s plan has not been thwarted.

Bingo again!

(and I see that you still persist in claiming that hell is not for man).

That is right. It isn’t. God did not somehow make this huge furnace to send us creatures there. God is a loving God. He does not make torture chambers.

Hell is being away from God. Heaven is not a place of bliss as if it is some humoungous recreational resort. Heaven is bliss because God is there. God does not send us to Hell by separating Himself from us. We do that, ourselves. We separate ourselves from God.

 

[benedictus2]

Please be more careful with what I say. I never said that everyone was already IN hell. I said that we are all born condemned to hell already. So I am not saying that everyone is in hell and since there is no escaping from hell that they are damned already for all eternity.

My apologies. My mistake. I stand corrected.

Please be more clear. Do you say that you don’t think anyone goes to hell?

I think it is possible to reject God at point of death which would mean yes that person will be separated from God (in hell). However, personally speaking I just don’t know how anyone can reject God so completely. Perhaps if someone has spent his or her life rejecting God then maybe at the very last moment, they can’t do any other. But this is purely my opinion.

Since you don’t seem to believe that anyone goes to hell, I’m not sure how answering that will help.

I personally can’t conceive being so evil but yes, perhaps there are some who are just down right unforgivably evil. Although quite honestly I don’t even want to think about it. It is a very frightening thought.

If everyone ends up in heaven, then the real disagreement between you and I has nothing to do with whether God “tortures” people in hell, but whether He sends them there at all.

That in a nutshell is it He does not send them there. Theychoose to go there. The interplay of grace and free will.

Not only that, but your answers are still indicating that you really fail to understand the doctrine of justification, because you think that if a judge sends someone to jail for the rest of their life that apparently that is too cruel. There is an appropriate saying: “You do the crime, you do the time.”

Actually no. Because you see the judge did not create this person with love. He is standing there, an impartial observer, totally devoid of any connection to the one being condemned.

But in the case of God, He is the one who lovingly created this person. Who everyday, sustained this person, gave him His very own breath so that this person will have life. Loved Him so much to the point of dying for Him.

More than that, unlike the human judge, God has the power to transform and reform this man. He has and does give this man the grace to change.

If the human judge has that power, I think he will exercise that power too rather than sending the man to jail where he will be raped and tortured by his fellow inmates.

A question for you, if you have God’s power to give the grace of repentance and transformation,and you are a judge, with your beloved son or daughter standing there before you, would you condemn him/her or would you give that grace so that he/she will change?

You see damnation I think works more like this. Even after giving us the grace up to the last minute, we still reject God and we storm out in anger and hatred from the courtroom, lauging derisively at God, and we end up outside of that courthouse where there is nothing else but misery because God is not there.

We must remember that heaven is only heaven, because God is there.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

Yes, again we disagree. But, inherent in that agreement is also a disagreement, because you deliberately emphasize love, and belittle God’s Judgment and Justice.

Wrong. Jesus died as a propitiation for our sins. If this verse is really talking about the whole world, then we are talking “universalism”, which is un-Biblical. Therefore, there MUST be an interpretation which considers other verses, such as this one where Jesus prayed to His father:

[SIGN]"After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: “Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.” (John 17:1-2)[/SIGN]

Clearly, Jesus recognized that God had not given Him the WHOLE WORLD, but only the elect out of the world. If God wanted all men saved, He would do it. God’s will cannot be thwarted.

There are basically three views that we can adopt:

1. 
   *]God sent Jesus to redeem everybody (this is universalism which means that everybody will be saved). This view is obviously un-Biblical.
   
   *]God sent Jesus to redeem everyone who would believe (have faith) and take advantage of Christ’s work. This is the view of Arminians who believe that Christ’s death was potential atonement, not actual atonement.
   
   *]God sent Jesus to redeem only the elect (the chosen church – Unconditional Election). This is the reformed view whereby we believe that Christ’s death was an actual atonement.
   
   The first is obviously out, because we already know that God has reserved Hell for Satan and his demons, and there will be plenty of men who will reside there due to their own rejection of Christ and their terrible sins.
   
   The second view was deemed a heresy by the church in the 5th century. Pelagianism, unfortunately, has since been adopted by the majority within the Catholic Church since that time.
   
   Finally, we have the third view, which is the view that the Bible presents. Christ came to save HIS people, not the whole world.
   
   Which is why there is no such thing as free will.
   
   Too bad your view is not Biblical. The Bible is crystal clear - God has already damned EVERYONE to hell, but out of those He has reserved His elect. Read John 3:18.

1. 
   Please explain who is and how many are the elect?? And who are the 144thousand?? Then discuss the issue please Thank You Nancy

 

[benedictus2]

[sign]"After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: “Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.” (John 17:1-2)[/sign]

Well how do you know that ALL OF US has not been given to Christ? How do you you know that only some have been given to Christ.

While the elect may have been chosen, it does not mean that the rest will be damned.

Clearly, Jesus recognized that God had not given Him the WHOLE WORLD, but only the elect out of the world. If God wanted all men saved, He would do it. God’s will cannot be thwarted.

Actually it is NOT CLEAR at all that God had not given Him the WHOLE WORLD. NOWHERE IN THE VERSE YOU QUOTED ABOVE DOES IT SAY THAT.

As a matter of fact, you have quoted above:

PEPCIS:

" For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him."

If God granted Jesus authority over all people, then ALL PEOPLE have been given to Him.

 

[benedictus2]

Please explain who is and how many are the elect?? And who are the 144thousand?? Then discuss the issue please Thank You Nancy

Way to go Nancy!

 

[NonCatholic]

My apologies. My mistake. I stand corrected.

I think it is possible to reject God at point of death which would mean yes that person will be separated from God (in hell). However, personally speaking I just don’t know how anyone can reject God so completely. Perhaps if someone has spent his or her life rejecting God then maybe at the very last moment, they can’t do any other. But this is purely my opinion.

I personally can’t conceive being so evil but yes, perhaps there are some who are just down right unforgivably evil. Although quite honestly I don’t even want to think about it. It is a very frightening thought.

That in a nutshell is it He does not send them there. Theychoose to go there. The interplay of grace and free will.
Actually no. Because you see the judge did not create this person with love. He is standing there, an impartial observer, totally devoid of any connection to the one being condemned.

But in the case of God, He is the one who lovingly created this person. Who everyday, sustained this person, gave him His very own breath so that this person will have life. Loved Him so much to the point of dying for Him.

More than that, unlike the human judge, God has the power to transform and reform this man. He has and does give this man the grace to change.

If the human judge has that power, I think he will exercise that power too rather than sending the man to jail where he will be raped and tortured by his fellow inmates.

A question for you, if you have God’s power to give the grace of repentance and transformation,and you are a judge, with your beloved son or daughter standing there before you, would you condemn him/her or would you give that grace so that he/she will change?

You see damnation I think works more like this. Even after giving us the grace up to the last minute, we still reject God and we storm out in anger and hatred from the courtroom, lauging derisively at God, and we end up outside of that courthouse where there is nothing else but misery because God is not there.

We must remember that heaven is only heaven, because God is there.

You are looking at this from the fallen human perspective of what is justice and not from God’s purpose for creation. We are secondary to the primary, which is the glorification of God.

Here are few versus to ponder just from Romans and John.

Romans 9 (poor Pharaoh) For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.”

The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it?

What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory

9 "I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and **I have been glorified in them. **

Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

You see this is about God’s glory primarily, we are secondary. If one is part of the “elect”, then what a communion one will have with the Trinity, better than the angels.

 

[benedictus2]

NC, First of all, thank you for using bigger fonts.!

You are looking at this from the fallen human perspective of what is justice and not from God’s purpose for creation. We are secondary to the primary, which is the glorification of God.

And as St Ireaneus said: Man fully alive is the glory of God. Our damnation is not God’s glory because damnation is eternal death. A man fully alive is a man alive with God’s Spirit.

Here are few versus to ponder just from Romans and John.

Romans 9 (poor Pharaoh) For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.”

The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it?

And where in my posts have I made any comment that contradicted this?

What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience **vessels of wrath prepared for **
.
.
.
You see this is about God’s glory primarily, we are secondary. If one is part of the “elect”, then what a communion one will have with the Trinity, better than the angels.

I agree it is about God’s glory! But you are a bit confused as to what God’s glory means.

If you keep reading on from the same Romans 9 and you go to verse 23 to 26 it reads:
This was to make known the riches of his glory to the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared previously for glory, namely, us whom he has called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles. As indeed he says in Hosea: “Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’ And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they shall be called children of the living God.”

How can you fail to see the beauty of those verses? Those who were not His people he now calls so that they will be CHILDREN OF THE LIVING GOD.

Remember Hosea? How he was made to marry a whore? We are all whores. But God chose us to be his bride.

You concentrate TOO MUCH on God’s wrath and God’s justice without even knowing what God’s justice is all about.

Instead of excluding, God is including all.

As I have said before, your biggest problem is when you chop up the Bible.

Here, when it was just getting even more interesting, even more beautiful, you stopped short.

 

[benedictus2]

You are looking at this from the fallen human perspective of what is justice and not from God’s purpose for creation. We are secondary to the primary, which is the glorification of God.

Oops, missed something again.

The way you phrase that is defective. Our salvation gives glory to God because that means that His purpose, His plan has been completed.

The glory of God is God made manifest i.e. is God revealed.

So if God is manifested in you and me, i.e. if people can see God in you and me, then that means God has been glorified because He has been manifested.

We manifest God when we become more and more Christlike, when the truth of the indwelling of the Trinity in us becomes apparent to all who see us.

So no, it is not secondary becuase there is no heirarchy established here but an inter-relatioinship of salvation with the glorification of God.

 

[jean8]

These are believers who are about to become “unbelievers” because of false teachers’ influences and they will become “unbelievers” unless we steadfast believers pull them out of the fire (damnation).

1. God is Love.
2. God desires ALL men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the Truth. Jesus died as a ransom for ALL men.

1 Timothy 2:3-6 “For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires ALL men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for ALL, to be testified in due time,”

Since Jesus died for ALL men and God desires ALL men to be SAVED, then why are not ALL men saved?

The answer is this: Free will choice by each individual person. They either choose to obey God or to not obey God. God forces no one to be saved and He forces no one to be lost. If He forces someone to be damned by His own sovereign will instead of Man’s free will choices, then He is not Love and He is not Just. Since He is Love and He is Just, then our own actions condemn us or save us depending on whether we obey the Gospel of Jesus.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 “when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,”

Only those who are saved (at any given moment) are attached to the Vine, Jesus. Jesus does not let wolves attach to Himself. We may be fooled by wolves in sheep’s clothing, but Jesus is not. When we are “in Christ” we are attached to the Vine. How are we “IN Christ?”

We are “in Christ” only if/when we are obeying God’s commandments.

John 15:10 “**If **you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.”

Matthew 19:17 “So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

Our salvation or lack of salvation depends on our own free will choices. They either save us or condemn us on Judgment Day. (Matthew 25:32-46)

True. We cooperate with the Holy Spirit’s grace in order to produce good fruit. He does not produce good fruit without our cooperation.

Matthew 3:8 “Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance,”

Jesus is not telling the Holy Spirit to do this by Himself. Jesus is telling us to bear fruits worthy of repentance. But we cannot do anything good without God’s grace at work within us.

God wills that we do good works but we must cooperate with His grace in order to actually do them. He does not force us to do good works and He does not prevent us from doing good works. He does help us to do them if we choose to do them.

1 Corinthians 6:11 “And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.”

Acts 22:16 “And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.”

We choose whether to be baptized or not to be baptized unless our parents chose for us when we were under the age of reason. (The Holy Spirit enters our souls (temples) at Baptism [we are sanctified/made holy by Baptism] and He resides there unless we commit grievous sins/defile our temples.)

What happens if we defile our temples with sin?

1 Corinthians 3:16-18 “Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. 18 Let no one deceive himself.”

Last question, ‘We repent’.
the Holy spirit is god. Acts 5:3-4 1Cor.12:3-11 No one can say ‘Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.’

Eph.1:4 reads “For he chose us in Him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in His sight” See verse 5 Some see this verse supporting predestination. I don’t.
I enjoyed this post.

God bless,
jean8

 

[SHW]

Last question, ‘We repent’.
the Holy spirit is god. Acts 5:3-4 1Cor.12:3-11 No one can say ‘Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.’

Eph.1:4 reads “For he chose us in Him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in His sight” See verse 5 Some see this verse supporting predestination. I don’t.
I enjoyed this post.

God bless,
jean8

Yes! We can repent anytime before our deaths and we will be saved.

He chose all of us first since He desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. He desires all of us to be holy and blameless in His sight. But, unfortunately, not all of us choose God back. We choose God by obeying His commandments and producing good fruits.

2 Peter 3:9 “The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.”

He did not desire for Pharaoh to perish either. God tempts no one. He knew that Pharaoh would have a hard heart towards the Israelites and so He did not extend His mercy to Pharaoh as He did to the Israelites but God was still just. He judges every person without partiality. 1 Peter 1:17

He decides whom He will have mercy on but He is always just in His judgment. Pharaoh’s character was wicked and God let him continue in his wickedness without immediate divine retribution in order to show the Israelites His power and mercy towards them, His chosen people.

James 1:13 “Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.”

When Scripture states Exodus 9:12 “But the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh; and he did not heed them, just as the LORD had spoken to Moses,”** it means that God’s mercy and compassion towards the Israelites is what actually hardened Pharaoh’s heart against the Israelites. God did not literally harden Pharaoh’s heart.** Pharaoh hardened his own heart against God’s command to let His people leave Egypt. Perhaps he hardened his heart out of jealousy because God chose the Israelites instead of the Egyptians to be His chosen people? Or maybe it was because of the loss of his slave labor if he would let them go?

God used Pharaoh’s actions for His own purposes but He did not force Pharaoh to sin. Pharaoh chose to disobey God using his own free will. God knew by His foreknowledge how Pharaoh would react when asked to free the Israelite slaves. So the Scriptures concerning Pharaoh were made according to the foreknowledge of God. He did not write the Scriptures first and then force Pharaoh to fulfill them.

Hebrews 3:15 “Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”

Thank you for your comments.

Blessings to you,
SHW

 

[NonCatholic]

NC, First of all, thank you for using bigger fonts.!

And as St Ireaneus said: Man fully alive is the glory of God. Our damnation is not God’s glory because damnation is eternal death. A man fully alive is a man alive with God’s Spirit. Again you misunderstand, God is glorified in both His mercy and in His wrath, with the crucifixion being one of the pinnacles of displaying God’s glory.

And where in my posts have I made any comment that contradicted this? You just made the statement above that damnation of souls is not bring glory to God (paraphrased).

If you keep reading on from the same Romans 9 and you go to verse 23 to 26 it reads:
This was to make known the riches of his glory to the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared previously for glory, namely, us whom he has called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles. As indeed he says in Hosea: “Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’ And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they shall be called children of the living God.”

How can you fail to see the beauty of those verses? Those who were not His people he now calls so that they will be CHILDREN OF THE LIVING GOD.

Remember Hosea? How he was made to marry a whore? We are all whores. But God chose us to be his bride. How do you know you are chosen?

You concentrate TOO MUCH on God’s wrath and God’s justice without even knowing what God’s justice is all about. Perhaps you are being judgmental?
Instead of excluding, God is including all.

As I have said before, your biggest problem is when you chop up the Bible. Rightly divide would be a more accurate way to put it.

Here, when it was just getting even more interesting, even more beautiful, you stopped short.

Much better than falling short.

 

[ncgolf]

The truth of the matter is that we are ALL born without free will. We mostly wander through this world in the grip of Satan’s power, with the ILLUSION of free will. But, once again, the Bible teaches the opposite.

Genesis 2:16 “16You are free to eat from any of the trees of the Garden 17 except from the tree of good and bad. From that tree you shall not eat; the moment you eat from it you are surely doomed to die.”

Did God not give Adam the freedom to choose … they chose to eat … listening rather to the snake than to God … I do not think the words “free to choose” an illusion.

We are not under the grip of Satan’s power … but we can be influenced by his lies and treachery … like Adam he whispers in our ear … Satan tells us things we want to hear.

 

[SHW]

Originally by Pepcis: "After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: “Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.” (John 17:1-2)

God, by His foreknowledge, knew every action of every human being before He created them. Based on His foreknowledge, He gave only those people to Jesus who were going to fear Him (obey Him) and also work righteousness (produce good fruits) and who would still be in this state of grace at their deaths. Those who were not going to do these things, He did not ever give to Jesus.

Acts 10:35 “But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.”

Please explain who is and how many are the elect?? And who are the 144thousand?? Then discuss the issue please Thank You Nancy

The elect are those persons who are saved and who will inherit eternal life. First, God saw who these people were in His foreknowledge because there is no “time” in heaven. He sees everything past, everything present on earth right now, and everything future, and He sees all of these at the same time. But, people live out their lives in “chronological” earth time. God predestined only those persons to inherit eternal life who were still going to be in the state of sanctifying grace when they died. These “predestined” persons are called the “elect.”

Paul assumed all persons listening to his letters were of the elect because they were listening to his letters and were members of the Church but he also exhorts them to not fall away from the faith because they will lose eternal life if they do. The reason Paul does this is because Paul did not know the status of people’s souls, only God knows that.

1 Peter 1:1-3 "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Romans 11:22 “Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.”

The “144,000” are members of the “elect” from the 12 tribes of Israel. It is symbolic language. It means a large number of people. It does not mean only exactly 144,000 people with only exactly 12,000 people from each of the 12 tribes of Israel. Christians are members of the “elect” also, but they are not of the 144,000.

Blessings to you,
SHW