Why is predestination wrong

[benedictus2]

fhansen:

Hell is

the rejection of and separation from God, willed by man. We’re in “exile” from Him here already, cast out of the garden-we decide if it’s to be a permanent separation or not.
So you don’t believe in hell either? Are all Catholics deniers of hell?

If you look at fhansen’s post, nowhere does it say that he does not believe in hell. Rather, he is defining for you what hell is and how we end up there.

Your concept of hell is a place where god sends those he wants to send there regardless of whether they are good or bad just for the pleasure of it, just because he says so.

fhansen on the other hand is saying that hell is a state. A state of separaton from God.When you are separated from God you are in hell. As I have said before, heaven is heaven only because God is there. It is not this blissful place where everyone goes about with a half Zen smile of contentment. We are happy in Heaven because we are united with God.

Earth is our place of exile and heaven is our real home.

 

[benedictus2]

This is impossible, since the topic was God’s sovereignty over election and choosing who would be called the elect. Esau lost on that round.

God’s choosing of Jacob did not mean Essau’s damnation. God chose Jacob for a purpose. This verse has nothing to do with damnation even though it does speak of election in the sense that God chooses certain people according to His purpose.
Your problem is in thinking that just because God chose some for election, then He also damns those he has not chosen. This is not quite correct as can be seen in Scripture. Though he chose Israel as his people, His intention was not that only Israel will be saved but that salvation should come to all. Through Christ.

Salvation is not configured through blood lines, but by God’s decree. (note John 1:10-13)

And SHW never said otherwise.

Wrong. Esau was “condemned” simply by God’s decree.

Read the verse again. It did not say that God condemned Esau. In Semitic usage to hate means to love less.

Wrong once again. The Bible clearly states that God hardened pharoah’s heart. You twist it to say the opposite.

God ALLOWED Pharaoh to harden his heart. God in His foreknowledge knew that Pharaoh will refuse to let the Israelites go. God ALLOWED for his heart to be hardened in much the same way that our hearts harden when we keep relieving the pain that others have caused us. God will never cause us to sin.

If God hardened pharaoh’s heart in the way you understand it then that means that he is an unjust God because pharaoh sinned only because God made him sin.

God never makes anyone sin but he does allow us to sin.

 

[benedictus2]

SHW:

Foreknowledge

is knowledge of an event (action) before it happens. It does not determine the action.

You keep on taking it out of context. I purposely laid it all out from Romans 8, and you took it out.

The Bible says, not me, that God’s foreknowledge is based upon his predestination. It does not say that His predestination is based upon His foreknowledge.

Romans 8 says : "For those he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, so that he might be the firstborn among many brothers "

**God foreknew all of us since He created all of us. **

Going by this verse then, we area all predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. Do you know what it means to be conformed to the image of His son. It means to be His children. So what does it mean to be His children?

 

[benedictus2]

Man cannot cooperate with God’s salvational grace. I’m not sure why this verse is not sinking in for you:

[sign]“For by grace are we saved through faith, and that not of ourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, so that no one can boast.”[/sign]

Only because you have a wrong understanding of what grace means and how grace works.

True, salvation by grace means that salvation is free. Not something we earned.

But one thing you do not understand is how salvation works.
You probably subscribe to the imputation of justification theory but that is not how it works.

You cannot cooperate with saving grace. Only AFTER you have been saved can you begin to cooperate, and even then we must give God.

Well how do you explain the fact that there are many good people who have not been "born again’ so by your defintion “not saved”.

Are they deprived of God’s grace? How then are they able to do what Jesus asked them to do in Mathew 25.

ALL THE GLORY for everything that occurs in our lives that is of any good value. I cannot, I MUST NOT, try to take any credit for any goodness that I can produce.

And no one is saying otherwise. We all acknowledge that all the good things we have received from God is gratis.
One thing though that you keep failing to bring into you arguments is Free-will.

Tell me what is the interplay between grace and free-will?

 

[benedictus2]

LOL That’s EXACTLY what I said. But thanks for repeating it.

Actually NOT because you said **man changed God’s design. **My example shows that the design was not changed.

 

[benedictus2]

Romans 1:25 Wicked, unrighteous men “changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen”

Only because of a ridiculous rendering of this statemeint in YOUR Bible.

Here is Romans 1:25 for you

"They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and revered and worshiped the creature rather than the creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. "

And you know what I also looked up the rendering in the NIV and NKJV and they both read: “EXCHANGE”.

Just goes to show you why correct translation is important**.**

---

**

I don’t know why you argue against me. You should argue against God. He said it, not me, so He ought to know.**

---

Well, Pepcis, it seems that it was not God who said it after all hmmmm? So who’s arguing with who?

 

[SHW]

Hi thank You, so the 144thousand and the great multitude are in the thousand year reign of Christ? Then the devil is locked up for one thousand yrs. How come in 2 Thes:2:7-12 he is destroyed at Christ’s coming? Nancy

Revelation 7:13-15 “Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these (great multitude) arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?” 14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.” So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them.”

The “144,000” are all the Israelites/Jews who inherit eternal life. The “great multitude” are the Gentiles (includes Christians from all nations) who inherit eternal life.

Many Christians today and throughout the ages have/had severe tribulations. We are extremely blessed in the USA. The last “great tribulation” refers to the last battle between Satan (and his followers) and Jesus and His followers. This will happen shortly before Jesus returns to gather up the rest of His kingdom. (cf. Matthew 24:7-24)

The destruction of Jerusalem and the temple already happened once in 70 A.D. as a judgment against Jerusalem because the Jews rejected Christ. The Romans killed the Jews and destroyed the temple and this event was a “precursor” of the great tribulation which is to come when Antichrist comes. (I hope that I am not alive when Antichrist is in power!) Look up Josephus’ (Jewish historian) account of this 70 A.D. event in Jerusalem at bible.ca/pre-flavius-josephus-70AD-Mt24-fulfilled.htm for more info.

The “1000 year reign” pertains to the times of the Gentiles on earth. The Jews, however, return to Christ shortly before He returns to gather up His kingdom (which happens after Antichrist and the two witnesses of God appear) and then Jesus destroys Antichrist and casts him into hell. We are living in the “1000” year reign right now. This kingdom is in our hearts. Jesus reigns in our hearts. “1000” years is another symbolic number meaning “a long time.” There are also many precursors to the final Antichrist and they are called Antichrists, too.

Luke 17:20-21 “Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 21 nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”

The devil, meaning Lucifer himself, was chained up in hell for a long period of time in order for the early Church to “go and make disciples of all nations.” He is to be set loose before the last and worst Antichrist comes. I believe that he is loose now. See ccel.org/node/4502 for more on why I think so.

2 Peter 3:8 “But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.”

1 John 2:18 “Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.”

Revelation 20:2-6 “He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while. 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.”

It seems to me that these martyrs (those who were beheaded) are reigning with Christ right now and they already have glorified bodies (alive with flesh) but the other saints do not have these “live” bodies. They have to wait until the end of time before Jesus restores their bodies and makes them incorruptible.

Jesus only returns once and that is to gather up His kingdom and present it to His Father.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 “For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain (this is after the great tribulation) shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.”

to be continued…

 

[SHW]

Continued…

The Apostles and disciples made disciples of all the known nations while they were alive.

Romans 1:8 “First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.”

Satan, along with Antichrist and the false prophet are cast alive into hell for eternity when Christ comes again.

Revelation 20:7-10 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

Revelation 20:11-15 “Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.”

Satan is cast into the lake of fire in 2 Thes. 2:7 because it is the end of time and Jesus has succeeded in putting all of His enemies under His feet and since Satan is Jesus’ enemy, he is cast into the lake of fire (under His feet). Then Jesus delivers His kingdom (all of His followers) to His Father.

1 Corinthians 15:22-25 “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.”

Blessings to you,
SHW

 

[PEPCIS]

"guanophore:

Now, if God calls all to be saved:

1 Tim 2:2-5
3 This is right and is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

PEPCIS:

God doesn’t call all to be saved, and this verse doesn’t say that He does. It says that God’s original desire was for all people to stand before him faultless, but because of Adam’s sin passed upon to all men, this is impossible.

benedictus:

So now you are saying that IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR GOD TO SAVE ALL MEN because a piddly little creature called Adam sinned?

PEPCIS:

No, I’m saying that it is IMPOSSIBLE for man to save himself because the Bible indicates that we have inherited Adam’s sin.

benedictus:

But that is not what you said. Here are your exact words:

"It says that God’s original desire was for all people to stand before him faultless, but because of Adam’s sin passed upon to all men, this is impossible.

"

So originally God desired all men to be with Him, but that is now IMPOSSIBLE because of Adam’s sin that was passed on to us. So my conclusion is correct that somewhow Adam thwarted God’s plan and made it IMPOSSIBLE FOR GOD to have His ORIGINAL plan of having us all with Him.

PEPCIS:

Why do you say that? How could this mean that Adam thwarted God’s plan?

When someone makes something impossible for you to do, that someone has thwarted your plan.

You’re really making it impossible to have a respectful dialogue. I’m not against trying my best to get along, but you are stretching my limits to a certain point.

You are deliberately rephrasing my conclusions to be the opposite of what I had ever intended, and I have to go into this pathetic diatribe with you correcting what I had said.

First of all, 1 Timothy 2:2-5 does not say that God has called all to be saved. It says His desire is that all men should be saved. Since we KNOW that not all men will be saved, then we know that it could not possibly mean that God has called all to be saved. It’s really very simple.

Second of all, I NEVER said that Adam’s sin thwarted God’s plan. YOU DID. You said: “So my conclusion is correct that somewhow Adam thwarted God’s plan and made it IMPOSSIBLE FOR GOD to have His ORIGINAL plan of having us all with Him.”

You ought to be careful not to charge people with saying things that they never said, and to keep things in context, and remember who said what.

 

[PEPCIS]

"PEPCIS:

Why do you say that? How could this mean that Adam thwarted God’s plan? All it means is that Adam’s sin had consequences. God’s plans continue on just as they were originally determined from before the foundation of the world.

The error is in your insistence that I am claiming something that I am not. I am not, nor have I ever tried to say that Adam’s sin will make it impossible for God’s plan to come to fruition.

But you said that man changed God’s plan.

And that is true. Man took God’s plan, and changed it into a lie. It’s like taking the architect’s blueprint, and not building according to the blueprints. The blueprints stay the same, but the end product does not resemble the original blueprints.

benedictus:

If man did that then how can His plan continue to the end of the world?

As I said before, I know you’re not that thick, so it’s becoming ever more obvious that you’re just doing it to get a rise. Just because man changes God’s original building plans does not mean that God will not continue on with the original design.

The error is in your insistence that I am claiming something that I am not. I am not, nor have I ever tried to say that Adam’s sin will make it impossible for God’s plan to come to fruition.

benedictus:

But you said “man made it impossible for God to save all men.

”

I NEVER said that. Please give us a link that shows me saying that. I believe that the 9th commandment forbids false testimony against another man. (Ex. 20:16)

 

[PEPCIS]

That is right. It isn’t. God did not somehow make this huge furnace to send us creatures there. God is a loving God. He does not make torture chambers.

[/quote]

1. 
   *]God made hell.
   *]God is a “loving God.”
   *]God is a “just God.”
   *]God loves HIS people.
   *]God hates sinners.
   *]God will one day judge the world, and send all those who have failed to accept His Son as Savior to hell.
   
   These are all facts drawn from the Bible.
   
   Now, if you were to say, “I don’t believe hell is a literal place of torment, but just a place where you don’t exist anymore.” That would be one thing, and I could “agree to disagree” with you. But you aren’t saying that, are you?
   
   
   benedictus:
   

   God does not send us to Hell by separating Himself from us. We do that, ourselves. We separate ourselves from God.

   So if we separate ourselves from God, do we send ourselves to Hell?

 

[SHW]

This is impossible, since the topic was God’s sovereignty over election and choosing who would be called the elect. Esau lost on that round.

Muslims like to claim that the line of succession for believers is reckoned through Ishmael. God says it came down through Isaac, and then through Jacob - not Esau, as some might object.

Salvation is not configured through blood lines, but by God’s decree. (note John 1:10-13) Esau was “condemned” simply by God’s decree.

**
God’s judges all men without partiality**. This includes both Jacob and Esau. God knew that Esau would sell his birthright. This is why Jacob was chosen over Jacob. God foresaw this event in His foreknowledge before they were born.

1 Peter 1:16-17 “because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.” 17 And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear;”

God foreordained that Jesus would redeem us before the foundation of the world. This was necessary because God foresaw before the foundation of the world that Adam would alienate us from Him and that we would need a Savior. **If **instead, God had foreseen in His foreknowledge that Adam was not going to sin, then Jesus would not have been foreordained to save us. It would not have been necessary for Jesus to die on the cross. (cf. 1 Peter 1:16-21)

by Pepcis: “The Bible clearly states that God hardened pharoah’s heart. You twist it to say the opposite.”

God “hardened” Pharaoh’s heart in this way:
God had mercy and compassion on the Israelites. Because of His goodness towards them, Pharaoh’s heart was hardened out of jealousy, etc. against the Israelites. (The goodness of) God hardened Pharaoh’s heart.

Pharaoh chose to harden his own heart because of God’s goodness toward the Israelites. God never forced Pharaoh to disobey His command. Pharaoh used his own free will to harden his own heart.

James 1:13 “Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.”

Blessings to you,
SHW

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

Continued…

The Apostles and disciples made disciples of all the known nations while they were alive.

Romans 1:8 “First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.”

Satan, along with Antichrist and the false prophet are cast alive into hell for eternity when Christ comes again.

Revelation 20:7-10 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

Revelation 20:11-15 “Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.”

Satan is cast into the lake of fire in 2 Thes. 2:7 because it is the end of time and Jesus has succeeded in putting all of His enemies under His feet and since Satan is Jesus’ enemy, he is cast into the lake of fire (under His feet). Then Jesus delivers His kingdom (all of His followers) to His Father.

1 Corinthians 15:22-25 “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.”

Blessings to you, The Mark? What is the Mark of the beast?
SHW

Thank You. Nancy

 

[PEPCIS]

My apologies. My mistake. I stand corrected.

Wow! I thought I was dealing with someone else! Thank you for being…well…good!

benedictus:

I think it is possible to reject God at point of death which would mean yes that person will be separated from God (in hell).

I’m not sure I understand the significance of “at point of death” comment. Even if man has that opportunity at the point of death, most men don’t.

benedictus:

However, personally speaking I just don’t know how anyone can reject God so completely.

I use to think the same, but the older I got, the more realistic I began to understand the depravity of man. There are accounts of men who torture others just for the pure pleasure. Men like Ted Bundy who raped and tortured his victims before he murdered them, some as young as 12 years-old.

]
I personally can’t conceive being so evil but yes, perhaps there are some who are just down right unforgivably evil. Although quite honestly I don’t even want to think about it. It is a very frightening thought.

I agree.

If everyone ends up in heaven, then the real disagreement between you and I has nothing to do with whether God “tortures” people in hell, but whether He sends them there at all.

benedictus:

That in a nutshell is it He does not send them there. They choose to go there. The interplay of grace and free will.

Let’s put the free will aside for a moment. You still have a quandry because even if they send themselves there, you have to admit that God is the one who makes hell a punishment. Does God really allow this to happen for eternity?

Not only that, but your answers are still indicating that you really fail to understand the doctrine of justification, because you think that if a judge sends someone to jail for the rest of their life that apparently that is too cruel. There is an appropriate saying: “You do the crime, you do the time.”

benedictus:

Actually no. Because you see the judge did not create this person with love. He is standing there, an impartial observer, totally devoid of any connection to the one being condemned.

But it doesn’t matter! God is THE judge of all the earth. He will not hold him guiltless that taketh His name in vain. All liars will have their place in the lake of fire. NO adulterer, or fornicator shall inherit the kingdom of Heaven.

benedictus:

More than that, unlike the human judge, God has the power to transform and reform this man. He has and does give this man the grace to change.

But if the man refuses, then he must go to hell.

benedictus:

A question for you, if you have God’s power to give the grace of repentance and transformation,and you are a judge, with your beloved son or daughter standing there before you, would you condemn him/her or would you give that grace so that he/she will change?

I am imperfect. One man might choose to send him to hell, and another might choose to let them go. God is the PERFECT JUDGE.

benedictus:

You see damnation I think works more like this. Even after giving us the grace up to the last minute, we still reject God and we storm out in anger and hatred from the courtroom, lauging derisively at God, and we end up outside of that courthouse where there is nothing else but misery because God is not there.

We must remember that heaven is only heaven, because God is there.

Either way, it’s the same. Your hell just isn’t as “bad” as the hell of the Bible.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

Wow! I thought I was dealing with someone else! Thank you for being…well…good!

I’m not sure I understand the significance of “at point of death” comment. Even if man has that opportunity at the point of death, most men don’t.

I use to think the same, but the older I got, the more realistic I began to understand the depravity of man. There are accounts of men who torture others just for the pure pleasure. Men like Ted Bundy who raped and tortured his victims before he murdered them, some as young as 12 years-old.

I agree.

Let’s put the free will aside for a moment. You still have a quandry because even if they send themselves there, you have to admit that God is the one who makes hell a punishment. Does God really allow this to happen for eternity?

But it doesn’t matter! God is THE judge of all the earth. He will not hold him guiltless that taketh His name in vain. All liars will have their place in the lake of fire. NO adulterer, or fornicator shall inherit the kingdom of Heaven.

But if the man refuses, then he must go to hell.

I am imperfect. One man might choose to send him to hell, and another might choose to let them go. God is the PERFECT JUDGE.

Either way, it’s the same. Your hell just isn’t as “bad” as the hell of the Bible.

O.K.if I say something? Good cause I’m going to I think only the real evil go to hell and if you knew them you’d proberly say God is justified in letting this happed for he is a fair God. It’s man that dosen’t care and some are so bad they become the children of satan,like the falling angels did they chose to disobey,so now their in darkness untill he returns. I myself do not think anyone is in hell yet untill the judgement,and that hasn’t happened yet.But hell is real. Nancy

 

[PEPCIS]

Please explain who is and how many are the elect?? And who are the 144thousand?? Then discuss the issue please Thank You Nancy

I wish I could explain the 144,000 to you, but I am not well schooled in all areas of eschatology. I could tell you different things regarding end-times, but the identity of the 144,000 has eluded me.

Some people think that the 144,000 in Chapter 7 are not the same 144,000 found in Chapter 14. And if you read the two chapters, you will find some significant differences between the two.

Others believe that the 144,000 are simply a picture of the Church and how God has sealed them and protects them from the coming judgments.

I just don’t know for sure.

As for the elect, no man knows the number, but “Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his.” (2 Tim 2:19)

 

[SHW]

That’s incorrect. “We are saved by grace through faith, and that not of ourselves, it is a gift of God, not of works (baptism, or any other action), lest anyone should try to boast.” (Ephesians 2:8-9)

“Not of ourselves” means we are not saved by our own “good works” or “works of the Law of Moses.” Christ had to die on the cross in order to reconcile us to God. Only Jesus could reconcile us to God because He is both God and Man and a perfect sacrifice was necessary in order to atone for Adam’s sin. Only Jesus who was also God was capable of offering a perfect sacrifice. (cf. Romans 5)

However, after He reconciles each of us to God (which He chooses to do so through Baptism), then we are responsible to cooperate with the Holy Spirit’s grace within us in order to remain reconciled to God.

Acts 22:14-16 “Then he said, ‘The God of our fathers has chosen you that you should know His will, and see the Just One, and hear the voice of His mouth. 15 For you will be His witness to all men of what you have seen and heard. 16 And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.”

Baptism washes away our sins and we are thereby sanctified.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 “Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.”

Both of these passages are referring to Baptism. It is ordinarily necessary because Jesus commanded it. Jesus chose to sanctify our souls (atone for Adam’s sin and our own personal sins) through Baptism.

Matthew 28:18-20 “And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.”

Jesus commands Baptism as the means for us to become His disciples. Baptism cleans all sin from our souls and this is how we are reconciled to God.

Originally posted by Pepcis: "Baptism is done in an act of obedience for what God has already done for us.

Baptism applies the merits of Jesus’ sacrifice to our souls. It is this act of Baptism which reconciles us to God. Baptism sanctifies our souls and the Holy Spirit then moves into them (our temples) and remains there unless we defile our souls and force Him to leave. The Holy Spirit cannot live in a soul which is dead through sin.

1 Thessalonians 4:1-6 “Finally then, brethren, we urge and exhort in the Lord Jesus that you should abound more and more, just as you received from us how you ought to walk and to please God; 2 for you know what commandments we gave you through the Lord Jesus. 3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; 4 that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, 5 not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God; 6 that no one should take advantage of and defraud his brother in this matter, because the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also forewarned you and testified.”

1 Corinthians 3:16-17 “Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.”

We must cooperate with God’s grace within us in order to remain reconciled to Him.

Romans 8:13 “For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.”

Blessings to you,
SHW

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

“Not of ourselves” means we are not saved by our own “good works” or “works of the Law of Moses.” Christ had to die on the cross in order to reconcile us to God. Only Jesus could reconcile us to God because He is both God and Man and a perfect sacrifice was necessary in order to atone for Adam’s sin. Only Jesus who was also God was capable of offering a perfect sacrifice. (cf. Romans 5)

However, after He reconciles each of us to God (which He chooses to do so through Baptism), then we are responsible to cooperate with the Holy Spirit’s grace within us in order to remain reconciled to God.

Acts 22:14-16 “Then he said, ‘The God of our fathers has chosen you that you should know His will, and see the Just One, and hear the voice of His mouth. 15 For you will be His witness to all men of what you have seen and heard. 16 And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.”

Baptism washes away our sins and we are thereby sanctified.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 “Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.”

Both of these passages are referring to Baptism. It is ordinarily necessary because Jesus commanded it. Jesus chose to sanctify our souls (atone for Adam’s sin and our own personal sins) through Baptism.

Matthew 28:18-20 “And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.”

Jesus commands Baptism as the means for us to become His disciples. Baptism cleans all sin from our souls and this is how we are reconciled to God.

Baptism applies the merits of Jesus’ sacrifice to our souls. It is this act of Baptism which reconciles us to God. Baptism sanctifies our souls and the Holy Spirit then moves into them (our temples) and remains there unless we defile our souls and force Him to leave. The Holy Spirit cannot live in a soul which is dead through sin.

1 Thessalonians 4:1-6 “Finally then, brethren, we urge and exhort in the Lord Jesus that you should abound more and more, just as you received from us how you ought to walk and to please God; 2 for you know what commandments we gave you through the Lord Jesus. 3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; 4 that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, 5 not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God; 6 that no one should take advantage of and defraud his brother in this matter, because the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also forewarned you and testified.”

1 Corinthians 3:16-17 “Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.”

We must cooperate with God’s grace within us in order to remain reconciled to Him.

Romans 8:13 “For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.”

Blessings to you.
SHW

If you sin and confess and ask for forgiveness the Holy Spirit comes back into you right? Nancy

 

[guanophore]

No.  If it were, then He would not be God.

This is just a faulty understanding of God. God has made man in His own likeness and image. Man has freedom, given by God, to reject Him.

Personally, I prefer the good 'ol King James version, and it is because of misinterpretations of such as this. Verse 30 is rendered differently in this version, by equating “God’s purpose” with “the counsel of God.” This is a major mistake. God’s purpose is more akin to “God’s will,” while “the counsel of God” is more appropriately referred to as the greater understanding of what God requires from man.

[SIGN]“And what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?” (Micah 6:8)[/SIGN]

Every Jew in Jesus’ day, ESPECIALLY THE LEARNED and THE TEACHERS, already knew this. But, apparently (according to the general tone of this text and the overall context of the Scriptures), these leaders were far from God, and certainly not what we might refer to as “saved.”

Anyone who was actively seeking to get themselves right with God are always eagerly accepted by Christ. Those who show disdain for His teachings were left to wallow in their depraved nature - no salvation was available to them.

Why do Jesus and the Apostles indicate that salvation was available to them, if it was not?

If they did not heed God’s “advice”, how is it they had the choice to do this?

Why would God give them “advice” that was contrary to His will? If He did not want them to be saved, why would he "advise"them to be saved? Do you see my confusion here?

This was no accident. As Non has already wonderfully pointed out, this was by God’s design.

If it was by God’s design that they rejected the salvation that He provided, then how can it be said that they were not in accordance with His will for them?

God doesn’t call all to be saved, and this verse doesn’t say that He does.

No, but there are others that say He does, and what they say must be taken into account to understand this one. It is an error to create a theology out of a few handpicked verses, and ignore others that say the opposite.

Acts 17:30-31
" The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all men everywhere to repent…"

Why does God command what He does not desire?

Rom 5:18-19
“Then as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men.”

Why did He make provision for all men, if He does not desire it?

1 Tim 2:2-5
3 This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

It says that God’s original desire was for all people to stand before him faultless, but because of Adam’s sin passed upon to all men, this is impossible.

So, in order to correct this problem, God sent His Son as a sacrifice for all men. Not that all men would come to salvation, but that all men could stand before Him as equally guilty, and equally in need of a Savior.

This is an absurd statement. All men stood equally condemned before God before He sent His son.

But in order to properly understand the couple of passages that seem to say that God will have all men to be saved, is to put it into context with the multitude of Scripture which clearly speaks of how only the elect will be saved.  Both of those cannot be correct, so someone is misinterpreting something.

I agree that someone is misinterpreting. However, I never said that all men would be saved. I said that God offers salvation to all men. Those that choose His salvation avail themselves of this opportunity. However as we see from the parable of the seeds/soils, not all who receive the implanted word that is able to save them will persevere until the end.

You seem to find that this presents God as wrong, as if by damning them to remain in their state of damnation, that He is unrighteous in some way.  Is that it?

All are condemned and in a state of damnation as a result of the fall of Adam. God has provided a way out. He offers it to all.

 

[guanophore]

Then how is it His will? That’s a contradiction in terms. If God’s will is “overridden”, then why should He bother to project His will?

It is His way of proposing to us, like a suitor proposes to his beloved. Remember that His relationship to the Church is as a lover to His betrothed.

The problem with this doctrine that you espouse is that you bend Scripture to fit your preconceived notions of what YOU think God should be like, when you should be allowing the Bible to tell you who God is.

Yes and no. We understand the Scripture from the point of view of what the Apostles believed and taught. It is from them that we receive the doctrine of the faith, which was whole and entire before a word of the Scripture was written.

I find it rather cheeky of you to come here with your non-Apostolic methods and beliefs and tell us what we “should be allowing”. Why is what you think more important and valid than what we receieved from the Apostles? We know who God is because He revealed Himself to the Church. They documented their beliefs in the Holy Scripture. That is why there is no contradiction between what the Church teaches, and the scripture.

If it is God's will that all men should be saved, then WHY DOESN'T HE ACCOMPLISH HIS WILL?  Because it is not His will!!!

In His sovereignty He has ordained that we will have a choice. Therefore, men can reject His purpose for themselves.

Luke 7:30
“But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves…” NKJV

His original intentions were to have all men saved, but as we can see throughout the Bible, men continuously rejected His goodness and mercy.

I hope you will read over and meditate on what you have written here, because it is the truth.