Why is predestination wrong

[guanophore]

You really aren’t that thick. No, that doesn’t mean anything of the sort.
This design is still in effect, which is why we read in I Timothy “Who will have all men to be saved…” He still desires this. The real question is "How many is “all?” But you aren’t ready to bear that question.

On the contrary, that IS the question I am asking. Why are there so many references in Scripture that God desires that all be saved?

Here you make it clear you understand the principle that God allows men to thwart His plan for them. You give accurate examples of marriage and bliss in the Garden at creation. Nothing has changed. God still desires that all be saved. He still allows people to “change the design”. I wouldn’t call it that, though, I think it is more accurate to say that some reject His purpose for themselves. Their refusal does nothing to change the design, just excludes themselves from it.

I know what I said.  You are having a bit of difficulty in reading what I said.

No, I think it is pretty evident to all of us that you are contradicting yourself.

If you could understand this it would be the end of our discussion.

You are right, but since I have not been able to grasp it yet, please help me out. How is it that God allows people to reject His purpose for themselves if no one really has any choice?

 

[SHW]

originally posted by Pepcis: "First of all, 1 Timothy 2:2-5 does not say that God has called all to be saved. It says His desire is that all men should be saved. Since we KNOW that not all men will be saved, then we know that it could not possibly mean that God has called all to be saved. It’s really very simple.

God desires all men to be saved so He provided a way for them to be saved. Men are to use their own free wills to cooperate with His plan of salvation (according to His purpose). It is God’s sovereign will that we all have free will because God wants us to know Him, love Him, and serve Him using our own free wills. He only wants sons and daughters who love Him and obey Him. He does not want rebellious sons and daughters who He has to force to obey Him and who will never love Him.

Persons are predestined because of God’s foreknowledge (according to His foreknowledge). In other words, God foresaw every person’s every act before they were born. It is this foreknowledge of every act of theirs done according to their own free wills which either predestines them to heaven or else condemns them to hell.

1 Peter 1:1-2 “To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:”

The foreknowledge comes first. The election is secondary. In other words, let’s say that God foresaw before “Joe” was born that “Joe” was going to deny Christ and not repent before his death. Because of His foreknowledge that Joe was not going to repent before his death, “Joe” is not chosen as one of the elect. God never places Joe into His hand (John 10:28-29) because Joe is not going to be saved.

However, God foresaw in His foreknowledge that Peter the Apostle was going to deny Christ three times. He also foresaw that Peter was going to repent and remain “in Christ” and even die a martyr for Christ. So according to His foreknowledge of all of these events, He predestined Peter to eternal life. So Peter is one of the elect according to the foreknowledge of God just as it states in Peter 1:2 above. God places Peter into His hand because Peter is going to be saved. Once you are placed into God’s hand, no one can snatch you out of it.

God did not cause either of these men to make the choices that they made. However, He condemned one man and predestined the other man according to their own life choices. They both used their own free wills to make their own choices and they both reap the consequences of their choices because God judges without partiality.

1 Peter 1:16-17 “because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.”17 And if you call on the Father,** who without partiality judges according to each one’s work**, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear;”

He judged both of them in His foreknowledge according to their works. One man’s (Joe’s) works condemn him and the other man’s (Peter’s) works save him. Free will choice. God judges our free will choices. It is these choices which save us or condemn us on Judgment Day. God just knew before we were created who would choose to obey Him and work righteousness and who would not.

Acts 10:35 “But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.”

Blessings to you,
SHW

 

[guanophore]

I already did prove it.

Well, ok, I will accept that this is “proven” in your own mind, but can you give some help to those of us that don’t see it that way? Please explain how the council or advice of God is not the same as His will.

Why does God “counsel” or “advise” people to do things contrary to His will?

 

[SHW]

If you sin and confess and ask for forgiveness the Holy Spirit comes back into you right? Nancy

Definitely!

1 John 2:1-3 “My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.”

2 Peter 3:9 “The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us,** not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance**.”

We must also do works worthy of repentance.

Matthew 3:8 “Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance,”

Check Ezekiel 33:12-20for a better understanding of this topic.

Blessings to you,
SHW

 

[SHW]

Thank You. Nancy What is the mark of the beast?

IF this is to be taken literally, it is some type of mark which designates that you can buy or sell in the time of the Antichrist. Perhaps it is a microchip implanted into either our forehead or our hand and scanners will read them?

All persons will have to have them in order to do any type of business in the public square. Direct link to our bank accounts?

Christians will most likely be doing a barter system among themselves.

Christians are not allowed to take this mark. IF they do, then they are denying Christ. Perhaps in order to receive this mark a person has to publicly deny Christ?

But this is all speculation. I do not know for sure.

Revelation 14:8-10 “And another angel followed, saying, “Babylon[a] is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.” 9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.”

Blessings to you,
SHW

 

[guanophore]

You have absolutely no proof of this.

Actually, we do! But that will derail the thread also.

This is just Catholic propaganda. Jesus founded the Church, not anybody else.

You are correct, Jesus founded the Catholic Church. I suppose you could call it “propaganda”. We call it historical fact.

Wrong, He gave it to the Church.

The Apostles and bishops are the church. the Church is built upon them as the foundation (and the prophets). The gifts that God gave to the Church, guarded by the bishops, are protected by Christ, and as such, have never left the Church he founded. But isn’t that off the topic too?

 God doesn't say that He saves only those that preservere to the end.

Actually, He does!

Rev 2:11
11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who conquers shall not be hurt by the second death.’

Rev 3:4-6
5 He who conquers shall be clad thus in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life; I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels. 6 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

He says that HE WILL save those, and that no one can pluck them out of His hand.

This is true, but they can jump out. They can spurn the blood that saved them.

also says, in Romans 8, that there is an unbroken progression of His will

I think your other posts have been clear that people are able to break the design of God.

*]Calling - This is God’s election, which is carried out according to His foreknowledge by His determinative will

The main problem I see with this is that the Apostles had a different definition of calling.

*]Justification - This is the process whereby God renders His elect guiltless of any crime

I hope you don’t mean this the way it sounds - that the elect can sin with impugnity.

*]Glorification - This is a continual process which will result in complete restoration and Glory with God in His presence.

The Apostles called this process sanctification, and the final restoration glorification.

[SIGN]“For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.”[/SIGN]

He is speaking of those who have already arrived there, not those of us who are still in process.

What is so significant about this is that this unbroken chain of events in a believer’s life is just as good as DONE. It is a fantastic picture of hope that God has given to us.

I can see your point however, the text does not indicate that it is a “chain” or that, if it is, it cannot be broken. The text is clearly referring to persons in the PAST TENSE. It applies to those who have been through all the parts, not those of us who have not. Such a rendering is not consistent with the rest of scripture, or the Apostolic Teaching.

. Why should any Christian ever fear the evil one, when we have a God who WILL perform His will in our lives, and will not leave us or forsake us? Our salvation is sure.

Because God tells us to do so, and because His ability to perform His will and remain with us is no guarantee that we will remain with Him. It is possible to fall from grace.

Matt 10:28
28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[guanophore]

**God's design remains the same, no matter what. ** However, man takes God's design and then modifies it to his liking.  You want to call that "interpretation of God's design", then that's fine with me.

If “Man is unable to change that design”, then why is it that he has changed God’s design and perverted it into something that God never intended? The answer is simple,** because man changed (exchanged) God’s **design for his own design.

You sound like you are contradicting yourself. Man thwarts God’s design only for Himself. The design does not change. Man can reject God’s call, and His grace, it does not change the call, or the grace, just thwarts His purpose in the life of the one who rejects it.

I think “exchange” might be a better word.

Hardly. The Bible tells us that man “changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.”

No. This is a subtle but important difference.

Rom 1:24-25
25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator,

Exchanging God’s truth for our own does not change His Truth.

His Truth, just like His call for all to be saved, remains immutble and irrevocable. Individuals decide to reject it.

Man doesn’t want God’s original design, so they take God’s design and modify it, or they outright reject it wholesale in preference of their own design.

Yes, and the Apostolic Teaching is that God does not want this, but He allows it.

But in the end, I don't see that we disagree.  Unless you WANT to disagree. :shrug:

You are saying that an individual does not have the ability to reject God’s purpose for themselves.

You also never explained the difference between God’s will, and God’s ‘advice’.

Ok, so all I have to do is to tell others to join RCIA, and they will become a Christian? Where is that taught in Scripture?

This is derailing the thread, pepcis. Go to NonCatholic’s thread for this .

 

[guanophore]

Yes, we all know that we are commanded to “endure to the end.” But the difference is that you claim that man has the power to do this, while I insist that the Bible clearly shows that only God can perform this for man.

No. No one here claims that. It is your false allegation against Catholics only. the Catholic Church teaches that God is at work within us to will and to do His good pleasure, and that it is our duty, in the obedience of faith, to work out that which is working in us.

vThat is why Jesus says:

[SIGN]“I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.” (John 10:28)[/SIGN]

Something that you keep on avoiding is the reconciliation of these two passages. Why is it that Jesus says one thing, but God says another? Are they schizophrenic? Or, does it mean something which is more consistent with other verses?

The only thing that seems schizophrenic is your perceptions.

For example, who is it that will endure to the end? Those who are God’s elect.

He calls all. Those who answer the call may be elected.

 True.  But who is it that will endure?  Only God's elect.  Who are God's elect?  Those whom God has foreseen from before the foundation of the world.  Who are those that God has foreseen from before the foundation of the world?  Those whom God has predestined to believe.  Who are those whom God has predestined to believe?  Those whom He has chosen, "who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but by God alone."

Ok.

This does not change the fact that 50% of the seeds were recieved by the earth, sprouted, and grew. The seed is the Kingdom. It was there,then it was lost!

Do we endure through our power? No, only through the power of Christ working in me.

It never ceases to amaze me that Protestants can accept this for themselves, but will deny it to Catholics.

I do not believe that God pre-ordains all things, but I do believe that there are certain key things that God does.

It is very Catholic of you to say this!

That’s impossible, because then it makes man the determiner of his own destiny. Man, of his own accord, would never choose God. We choose God BECAUSE He first chose/loved us. 1 John 4:19

Such a statement is based on a flawed understanding of the nature of man, and the nature of original sin. That probably belongs on another thread too.

 

[ncgolf]

It means if God is for us, then the guarantee is that nobody can overcome what He began.

Not at all … there is no guarantee in this statement. NONE … Paul, James and Peter all warn us about the evil one …why does the Bible tell us to put on the armor of God?

If God is for us what did and what does He do to be for us? The Bible does not mince words about our enemy … if you think so go back and reread the Gospels … especially Christ’s words, Paul, Peter and James … anyway who reads the Bible … faithful people so why the warning … your understanding makes it sound like preaching to the choir … if it was for the unfaithful why bother since they wont read the Bible anyway.

Guarantee reads too much into this … God’s armor … what are these? Can you list anything that could be construed as armor?

Who does Paul say our enemy is … Ephesians 6.12:
We wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the
authorities, against the cosmic powers of this present darkness, against the
spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.

If you believe a guarantee … you must reconcile your theology that with Paul, Peter’s, James and Christ’s own words … please do.

 

[PEPCIS]

Well how do you know that ALL OF US has not been given to Christ? How do you you know that only some have been given to Christ. While the elect may have been chosen, it does not mean that the rest will be damned.

[/quote]

Because the Bible says so. It’s not a matter of some being given to Christ, while others having a tougher time of it. All those who have NOT been given to Christ WILL NOT ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN.

Jesus says that there are even some who will try to claim works of righteousness in order to be approved and enter into heaven - just like the doctrines that you profess of working your way into heaven - and they will come to Him in “that day” and say,

[SIGN]"Lord, Lord, look we have prophesied in your name, and in your name we have cast out devils, and in your name we have done many wonderful works!!, and He will say to them, ‘Be gone from me you workers of sin and unrighteousness.’ " (Matthew 7:22-23)[/SIGN]

If you are relying on your works to maintain your goodness, you’ll have a very rude awakening “in that day.”

Clearly, Jesus recognized that God had not given Him the WHOLE WORLD, but only the elect out of the world. If God wanted all men saved, He would do it. God’s will cannot be thwarted.

Actually it is NOT CLEAR at all that God had not given Him the WHOLE WORLD.

NOWHERE IN THE VERSE YOU QUOTED ABOVE [John 17:1-2] DOES IT SAY THAT.

Of course it does. You are choosing, based solely upon Church propaganda, to deny the Scriptures a plainly read interpretation, choosing instead to modify the meaning to incorporate the understanding that everyone gets to heaven.

John 17:1-2 clearly states that Jesus will save only those whom God has given to Him. Not the whole world. If He had wanted to say that He was going to save the whole world, this would have been a great place to do that. The Scriptures say: “to as many as He has given Him.” That language is very specific and not inclusive of the whole world, but is intended to separate those whom He has been given, from the rest of the world.

If you read the context of the book of John, you will see that there is a progression of hatred that is building against Jesus and his followers, and that Jesus continuously points out the disparity between those who are rejecting him, and those who are choosing to follow him.

Later, in this chapter, as Jesus prays, He prays,

[SIGN]“I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.”[/SIGN]

No, there is a clear distinction between those who have been given to Jesus, and the rest of the world who are on their way to “everlasting destruction.”

benedictus:

As a matter of fact, you have quoted above:

"For you granted him authority over all people

that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him."

If God granted Jesus authority over all people, then ALL PEOPLE have been given to Him.

You’re still trying to interpret Scripture by Catholic dogma. You can’t do that. Let’s try it this way. It’s like you are the son of the owner of a shoe factory. The owner wants to step back and take less responsibility for the day-to-day operations, and so he gives his son all authority over the whole plant, and over everyone that works there.

The son decides that he wants to tour the plant and see what is happening, and he notices that there are some employees who are doing an excellent job, and are truly concerned about doing the best job that they can for the owner. But he also sees that there are some who come in late and leave early, and do sloppy work, and make a mess of their work areas.

He decides that he will award those who do the best job, and he gives all those who he identifies as being concientious a $1,000.00 bonus. The rest get nothing but their regular wages.

All authority has been given to the son (the new plant owner/manager), but he only gave SOME the $1,000.00 bonus.

All authority has been given to the Son (the only begotten Son of God) over all men, but He only gives eternal life to those whom God has given Him - not to all that He has authority over. There is a HUGE difference.

 

[PEPCIS]

You are looking at this from the fallen human perspective of what is justice and not from God’s purpose for creation. We are secondary to the primary, which is the glorification of God.

I have also tried to get him to understand that he is creating a lop-sided image of God by over-emphasizing God’s love and His mercy, over His other attributes, such as His Justice and Hatred of sin, and how He will bring all things under subjection in Christ in order to bring Himself glory.

Good use of Scripture, NC.

 

[PEPCIS]

"fhansen:

Hell is the rejection of and separation from God, willed by man. We’re in “exile” from Him here already, cast out of the garden-we decide if it’s to be a permanent separation or not.

PEPCIS:

So you don’t believe in hell either? Are all Catholics deniers of hell?

No, didn’t say anything like that

. Permanent or eternal separation is hell.

Actually, you said that since we are all on earth, that we are already in Hell, because we are not in His presence. That is nothing in the way that the Bible speaks of Hell. Your understanding completely rejects the Biblical definition of Hell, and basically does away with it.

 

[PEPCIS]

[SIGN]“I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.” (John 10:28)[/SIGN]

"SHW:

They never ever get into God’s hand unless they are going to be saved in the end.

PEPCIS:

No, no, no, no. God doesn’t say that He saves only those that preservere to the end. He says that HE WILL save those, and that no one can pluck them out of His hand.

Matthew 10:22

“And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end (of his life) will be saved.”

Here are a couple of observations:

1. Jesus says that He has been given authority over all men, and that those men whom He gives eternal life to will NEVER perish, and that once they are given to Him in His hand, that no one could ever possibly snatch them out of His hand.

It doesn’t say “They never ever get into God’s hand unless they are going to be saved in the end.” That’s saying the OPPOSITE of what Christ said.

• Christ says that they are placed in His hand, and once they are placed there that God protects them from any who would try to snatch them out of His hand.
• You say that if men work hard all their lives, and if they are lucky, that their good works will place them in Jesus’ hand. By your reckoning, if men are placed into Jesus’ hand, that they can pluck themselves out by not performing well. If they are influenced by the devil, the devil can snatch them out of God’s hand.

1. Once again, you choose to use one verse to antagonize against another verse, instead of reconciling the two in harmony. The question is not “which of these verses tells the truth.” You are constantly pitting one verse against another. That is not good Biblical exegesis.

The reconciliation is found in asking the question: “Who is it that will endure unto the end?” The answer: “All those who have been given unto the Son.”

 

[Soutane]

I guess you are right - we don’t worship the same god.

You are cruising for a banning.That is equivalent to denying our Christianity.

 

[PEPCIS]

"PEPCIS:

He also says, in Romans 8, that there is an unbroken progression of His will which begins with

foreknowledge - This is God’s knowledge being the result of declaring His actions will be carried out as He has predetermined

Foreknowledge

is knowledge of an event (action) before it happens. It does not determine the action.

There are definitely two different types of foreknowledge. One is the kind that we can KNOW something because we have actually looked ahead to the future and have seen it occur.

Another is the kind that God can look to the future and see all things that He will cause to come to pass.

On the one hand, we KNOW that God can see in the future, and that He knows all things that will occur, simply because He can see them.

But we also know that there are at least SOME things that come to pass because He has decreed them to occur.

For example, we read in Acts 2:22-23, [SIGN]"You men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth was a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs; God did these miracles by him right before your eyes, so that you cannot deny it:

This same Jesus was delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, and you took him, and by your wicked hands he was crucified and slain."[/SIGN]

This was much more than a simple foreknowledge. This foreknowledge was determined to occur because God had decreed it to happen.

The whole population of the world could have shown up on the hill of Golgotha, and they would not have been able to stop the crucifixion of Christ, because God had decreed it to happen.

God’s foreknowledge was based upon his predestination.

There are other equally important events which occur in the world that God does not leave to chance. Those include the salvation and preserverance of God’s elect.

 

[PEPCIS]

Matthew 10:22 “And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end (of his life) will be saved.”

PEPCIS:

Yes, we all know that we are commanded to “endure to the end.” But the difference is that you claim that man has the power to do this, while I insist that the Bible clearly shows that only God can perform this for man.

That is why Jesus says:

[SIGN]"I give them eternal

life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand." (John 10:28)[/SIGN]

Something that you keep on avoiding is the reconciliation of these two passages. Why is it that Jesus says one thing, but God says another? Are they schizophrenic? Or, does it mean something which is more consistent with other verses?

**All **

Scripture is true. But not all of the truth about a subject is necessarily in each passage. These letters (epistles) were written as a supplement to oral teaching, not as a substitute.

What kind of rubbish is that?

1. 
   *]These Scriptures are BOTH speaking of the same subject of the salvation of men.
   *]All Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for Doctrine, Reproof, for Correction, for Instruction in Righteousness." (2 Tim. 3:16) You cannot relegate some portions of Scripture to a lesser status of “oral teaching” that is somehow not as important as other passages of Scripture.

 

[Pete_Holter]

Hey PEPCIS!

I am afraid that you are being over-corrected by some of the Catholics on this thread. I am sorry for this. Much of what you and other non-Catholic Christians are saying is perfectly orthodox. I hope that you’ll be able to work past some of the various opinions expressed here to be able to evaluate what the Catholic Church officially teaches. The Catholic Church offers some small corrections to your beliefs on this subject, but not many. When a Catholic says, “the Bible means this when it says that,” and it seems opposed to your interpretation of the Bible, it would be a good idea to ask him/her for quotes from the Magisterium to support the interpretation disagreeable to you. May God bless you!

To my Catholic brothers and sisters, you may hold a personal view on predestination that is acceptable within the pale of Church teaching, but not necessary for everyone to embrace. Please consider these words from Paul and keep in mind that the souls of our separated brothers and sisters are at stake in this discussion: “I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some” (1 Cor 9:22).

If they observe some of the same things, in respect of these they have not severed themselves; and so far they are still a part of the framework of the Church, while in all other respects they are cut off from it. Accordingly, any one whom they have associated with themselves is united to the Church in all those points in which they are not separated from it. And therefore, if he wish to come over to the Church, he is made sound in those points in which he was unsound and went astray; but where he was sound in union with the Church, he is not cured, but recognized,–lest in desiring to cure what is sound we should rather inflict a wound” (St. Augustine, On Baptism, Against the Donatists).

 

[PEPCIS]

Hi,I was in another site and I looked up Mortal sins.I was flabergasted,I’d have to be a nun or priest to do all that it says. How could we not be saved by grace? For it is impossible any other way! Nancy

That is an excellent observation, Nancy. (Wo)Man cannot be saved outside of Grace. Good works do nothing toward salvation, but are a result of it.

 

[PEPCIS]

In the context of Ceasar yes that is correct all the world does not mean all the world as we know it now. But during that time, the Roman world is all to them.

However, in this verse I Timothy “Who will have all men to be saved…” . ALL means ALL. God desires every man to be saved. But God has given us free will and he will not violate our free will.

God’s desires are not God’s will. Therefore, “all men” will NOT be saved. Of course, you probably believe that all men will EVENTUALLY be saved.

benedictus:

I also asked you how many is all where do you find support for that in the Bible, you have not replied to that question.

God is not going to save “all.” The Bible teaches that. I’m not sure that showing that to you will convince you, though it should.

benedictus:

I also asked you where in the Bible does it say that God changed his design 6000 years ago but you have not replied to that one either.

I didn’t intend to say that God ever changed His design, and I think I have already cleared that up in our other discussion. However, the fact that the design, as it is worked out in the world, was determined before the foundation of the world. That would have been about the time that God created the heavens and the earth - just somewhere in eternity past.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

This had to be predestined POPE BENEDICT says LUTHER RIGHT.breakingchristiannews.com…ftml?ld=6341 Nancy