Why is predestination wrong

[PEPCIS]

"PEPCIS:

Different words do not mean the same thing. That’s why there are dictionaries, to denote the subtle differences in meaning between “sufficient” and “successful.”

It’s also vital that whichever version we use, that we should strive to make note of those subtle differences to rightly interpret God’s Word for its proper meaning.

And the version depends on how good the translator is in the language being translated.

So do you say that the translators of the NIV or the Catholic Bible are better or worse than other translators?

In this particular case, we see that the phrase “counsel of God” is otherwise interpreted “God’s plan.” When we see that, we have a world of Greek scholars at our disposal simply by comparing the various versions. In this case, we can see that what is being conveyed by the phrase is that there are those who listen to God’s counsel, and others who reject His counsel.

benedictus:

But that begs the question because you still have not proved that “counsel” is the correct translation since you have not provided any scholarly support for your claim.

There is no need for “scholarly support.” The Bible translators have already done that. Now it is up to us to use our God-given talents to properly understand His Word.

benedictus:

Why did the KJV translators use counsel and not purpose’?

Because they believed it to best convey the meaning of the original Greek. “Counsel of God” defines more of a generalized understanding of God’s overall purpose for man concerning His salvation and how he should live and conduct himself, whereas “plan” is more restrictive, defining a specific course of action.

It was not simply their failure to be baptized that the Bible says they rejected God’s counsel. Their rejection shows that their whole lives are rooted in a rejection of EVERYTHING God could ever provide for them.

benedictus:

What was the actual word in greek?

boule (pronounced “boo-lay”) It means, volition, i.e. (objectively) advice, or (by implication) purpose. Notice BY IMPLICATION, not by direct interpretation.

benedictus:

Why is counsel a better rendering of that word?

Because “the Counsel of God” denotes more than the “plan of God.” It denotes HOW God’s plan is working. As it was explained to them in Luke 7, there was a system that God instituted which placed people who were considered “low-lifes” by the Pharisee’s standards, AHEAD OF JOHN THE BAPTIST in the kingdom of Heaven!!!

These Pharisees lived according to their own counsels, which meant that they lived according to principles and rules which they had established in centuries past, whereby they were considered of much more importance because of their station in life, and because of all of the “good” and ostentatious displays of righteousness that they displayed.

Now, here was some religious man coming to them and telling them that those who were being baptized by John the Baptist were going to be more important in the kingdom of heaven than John the Baptist himself. If that were the case, then that meant that they were certainly not going to be considered important at all in God’s eyes.

It was for this reason that the Pharisees rejected the counsel of God.

Or, as one commentator puts it: “This is the ruin of multitudes; they are not serious in the concerns of their souls. Let us study to prove ourselves children of Wisdom, by attending the instructions of God’s word, and adoring those mysteries and glad tidings which infidels and Pharisees deride and blaspheme.”

 

[PEPCIS]

You are cruising for a banning.That is equivalent to denying our Christianity.

Ooooooooooo!

Oh yeah, don’t notice that I apologized for saying that.

Now, do you owe ME an apology, or will you be “cruising for a banning?”

 

[PEPCIS]

Hey PEPCIS!

I am afraid that you are being over-corrected by some of the Catholics on this thread. I am sorry for this. Much of what you and other non-Catholic Christians are saying is perfectly orthodox. I hope that you’ll be able to work past some of the various opinions expressed here to be able to evaluate what the Catholic Church officially teaches. The Catholic Church offers some small corrections to your beliefs on this subject, but not many. When a Catholic says, “the Bible means this when it says that,” and it seems opposed to your interpretation of the Bible, it would be a good idea to ask him/her for quotes from the Magisterium to support the interpretation disagreeable to you. May God bless you!

To my Catholic brothers and sisters, you may hold a personal view on predestination that is acceptable within the pale of Church teaching, but not necessary for everyone to embrace. Please consider these words from Paul and keep in mind that the souls of our separated brothers and sisters are at stake in this discussion: “I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some” (1 Cor 9:22).

If they observe some of the same things, in respect of these they have not severed themselves; and so far they are still a part of the framework of the Church, while in all other respects they are cut off from it. Accordingly, any one whom they have associated with themselves is united to the Church in all those points in which they are not separated from it. And therefore, if he wish to come over to the Church, he is made sound in those points in which he was unsound and went astray; but where he was sound in union with the Church, he is not cured, but recognized,–lest in desiring to cure what is sound we should rather inflict a wound” (St. Augustine, On Baptism, Against the Donatists).

Thank you very much for those kind words. I will take this advice seriously. I still have much to learn regarding the system I know as the Catholic Church.

 

[PEPCIS]

This had to be predestined POPE BENEDICT says LUTHER RIGHT.breakingchristiannews.com…ftml?ld=6341 Nancy

I had trouble with your link, Nancy. Try this link. au.christiantoday.com/article/luther-rome-and-the-bible/5255.htm

 

[fhansen]

Actually, you said that since we are all on earth, that we are already in Hell, because we are not in His presence. That is nothing in the way that the Bible speaks of Hell. Your understanding completely rejects the Biblical definition of Hell, and basically does away with it.

There’s not a great deal the bible reveals to us about the nature of hell-or of heaven for that matter. Hell’s spoken of as a place because we can’t relate to or comprehend anything supernatural or non-physical. But the most important thing for us to know is that heaven is any “place” where God is-to be in His presence is to know pure ineffable joy and happiness. Hell is any place God is not-that’s how much man needs God-not just for his sustenance but for his very happiness. Adam& Eve walked with God-knowing His love and possessing immortality. On earth we know good and evil. We have a foretaste of the pain of hell due to being exiled from Him, cast out of the garden, banned from the Tree of Life- separated from Him, the source of life. Here we know a world where the original sin of rejecting His authority has its chance to play its hand-man’s will reigns along with pain suffering and death. But here we can also taste of the goodness and love of God. This world is a merciful reprieve from annihilation where He can accomplish in us the very work you say He doesn’t desire; a will molded into union with His. Or it’s a place where we can finalize our rejection of Him and know eternal death. In any case, the more we grow in love for God, the more acutely aware we become of the separation we must endure here-until we “see face to face”.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

Thank you very much for those kind words. I will take this advice seriously. I still have much to learn regarding the system I know as the Catholic Church.

Did you see my post? about the pope? breakingchristiannews.com…f.html?ld=6341 Nancy

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

Did you see my post? about the pope? breakingchristiannews.com…f.html?ld=6341 Nancy

also au.christiantoday.com/articale…bible/5255.htm Colossians:4:6 Nancy

 

[NonCatholic]

And you are happy to be with a psychopath for a god for all eternity?

**
That’s always been the argument of the folks that don’t get it; even within a Protestant community. But because you don’t get it doesn’t mean it is not taught in Scripture, the “election”, not the “monster god”.**

 

[NonCatholic]

You are cruising for a banning.That is equivalent to denying our Christianity.

Zoinks, its the infraction police, let’s get out of here Scooby!!! LOL

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

The reason why people dont beleive in predestination is it does not happen for them when they want it to.The if only people,if only I would have known I would have not let him out that day etc.But it did happen for God predestined in the Bible and I beleive in the word of GodRom:8:29.30 Eph:1:5:1:11 What did he tell Abraham,about all the land and all the nations,that he would be the father of them all.Before it happened (predestioned) Nancy

 

[NonCatholic]

The reason why people dont beleive in predestination is it does not happen for them when they want it to.The if only people,if only I would have known I would have not let him out that day etc.But it did happen for God predestined in the Bible and I beleive in the word of GodRom:8:29.30 Eph:1:5:1:11 What did he tell Abraham,about all the land and all the nations,that he would be the father of them all.Before it happened (predestioned) Nancy

Hi Nancy,

Click on your links in the posts and you get a “page error” every time…part of the link is missing or corrupt.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

Hi Nancy,

Click on your links in the posts and you get a “page error” every time…part of the link is missing or corrupt.

I had no problem getting this information early today someone proberly stopped it. I’ll look for another link Thank You nancy

 

[NonCatholic]

I had no problem getting this information early today someone proberly stopped it. I’ll look for another link Thank You nancy

Send me a PM with the link if you get the chance…thanks

 

[benedictus2]

1. 
   *]God hates sinners.

1. 
   God does not hate sinners. God hates sin. If God hated sinners He would not have died for us.
   
   The fact that He died for us while we were still sinners (as St Paul said) means that He loves sinners.
   
   He came for the sinners. He himself said that. He came for the sick not the healthy.

 

[benedictus2]

And that is true. Man took God’s plan, and changed it into a lie. It’s like taking the architect’s blueprint, and not building according to the blueprints. The blueprints stay the same, but the end product does not resemble the original blueprints.

See my post 263.

 

[guanophore]

Jesus says that there are even some who will try to claim works of righteousness in order to be approved and enter into heaven - just like the doctrines that you profess of working your way into heaven - and they will come to Him in "that day" and say,

No, Pepcis. You have misunderstood the doctrines we profess. You are accusing Catholics of something the Catholic Church does not teach. If you are going to malign the Apostolic Faith, it would be better if you maligned what we actually believe, rather than what you erroneously imagine that we do.

If you are relying on your works to maintain your goodness, you’ll have a very rude awakening “in that day.”

I agree with this statement, but I think you erroneously believe that Catholics embrace this, which is not the case.

Phil 2:13
" for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."

It is God at work in us to will and to do His good. The works of rightousness that are done through us are a result of His grace, not from our “flesh”.

You are choosing, based solely upon Church propaganda, to deny the Scriptures a plainly read interpretation, choosing instead to modify the meaning to incorporate the understanding that everyone gets to heaven.

No, actually, there is no need for this. We have received the Scriptures from the Apostles just as we have the Teachings. We read them in the light of those Teachings, and that is why there is no contradiction between what the Church teaches, and the Scripture. THe “plain meaning” seems different to you because you are separated from the Apostolic Succession, and have lost the Sacred Traditions that the Apostles commanded should be preserved.

You’re still trying to interpret Scripture by Catholic dogma. You can’t do that.

Yes, we can do that, and in fact we should. Scripture was never meant to be separated from the Apostolic Tradition that produced it.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

If you guy’s would look up scripture you’d fine in REV.7:9 besides the 144 thousand there are more than the sands mentioned. Look it up it’s written down. Love of Christ Nancy

 

[guanophore]

There is no need for “scholarly support.” The Bible translators have already done that. Now it is up to us to use our God-given talents to properly understand His Word.

This is a good example of why there is so much division in the Body. Each one makes himself his own “expert” and using his own “God given talents” he finds his own interpretation and understanding. To the extent that these are separated from the Apostolic Teaching, they have more and more errors.

“Counsel of God” defines more of a generalized understanding of God’s overall purpose for man concerning His salvation and how he should live and conduct himself, whereas “plan” is more restrictive, defining a specific course of action.

Ok. This is very confusing for me but I will try. Why would God’s generalized purpose for man and his salvation contradict his specific plan?

it was not simply their failure to be baptized that the Bible says they rejected God’s counsel. Their rejection shows that their whole lives are rooted in a rejection of EVERYTHING God could ever provide for them.

I agree, but then why does it say that they rejected God’s purpose for themselves? Either He wanted them to be obedient to His commandment, or not. If they refused to obey, then this was His will. He did not WILL them to be saved. If that is the case, then it was not contrary to His will that they rejected Him. Do you understand where I am having trouble here?

boule (pronounced "boo-lay")  It means, volition, i.e. (objectively) advice, or (by implication) purpose.  Notice BY IMPLICATION, not by direct interpretation.

Volition is an act of the will. This being the case, then it could equally be translated that they rejected His will for themselves.
What I am trying to understand is, how is it that God gives advice that contradicts His will?

Because "the Counsel of God" denotes more than the "plan of God."  It denotes **HOW** God's plan is working.  As it was explained to them in Luke 7, there was a system that God instituted which placed people who were considered "low-lifes" by the Pharisee's standards, AHEAD OF JOHN THE BAPTIST in the kingdom of Heaven!!!

I agree. I am not disputing that they rejected His will, or the reasons for it. What I am having trouble understanding is how Gods “counsel” contradictes His will.

These Pharisees lived according to their own counsels, which meant that they lived according to principles and rules which they had established in centuries past, whereby they were considered of much more importance because of their station in life, and because of all of the "good" and ostentatious displays of righteousness that they displayed.

Yes. And the context of the text indicates that this lifestyle was a rejection of what God had intended for them.

Now, here was some religious man coming to them and telling them that those who were being baptized by John the Baptist were going to be more important in the kingdom of heaven than John the Baptist himself. If that were the case, then that meant that they were certainly not going to be considered important at all in God’s eyes.

You are getting off the subject. My question is, how is it that God advised against this lifestyle, yet still wanted them to be saved?

While you are at it, could you please elaborate on how God’s desire is not the same as His will?

It was for this reason that the Pharisees rejected the counsel of God.

I have no argument about the reasons. My problem is with the fact that they were able do to so. You claim this is not possible.

Or, as one commentator puts it: "This is the ruin of multitudes; they are not serious in the concerns of their souls. Let us study to prove ourselves children of Wisdom, by attending the instructions of God's word, and adoring those mysteries and glad tidings which infidels and Pharisees deride and blaspheme."

It seems to me that you are avoiding my question.

 

[guanophore]

Zoinks, its the infraction police, let’s get out of here Scooby!!! LOL

You may continue with your mocking sarcasm for the time being, hopefully aware that sarcasm = flesh cutting.

But, it is much better if we encourage one another to charity, so that the "infraction police " (moderators) do not need to take notice of us, or mediate our wrongdoing.

You have had several comments yourself that are cruising for a banning, so a review of the forum rules would be recommended for both of you. You are required to respect the Catholic faith in order to post here. You don’t have to agree with it, or embrace it, just practice tolerance and civility.

 

[PEPCIS]

There’s not a great deal the bible reveals to us about the nature of hell-or of heaven for that matter. Hell’s spoken of as a place because we can’t relate to or comprehend anything supernatural or non-physical. But the most important thing for us to know is that heaven is any “place” where God is-to be in His presence is to know pure ineffable joy and happiness. Hell is any place God is not-that’s how much man needs God-not just for his sustenance but for his very happiness. Adam& Eve walked with God-knowing His love and possessing immortality. On earth we know good and evil. We have a foretaste of the pain of hell due to being exiled from Him, cast out of the garden, banned from the Tree of Life- separated from Him, the source of life. Here we know a world where the original sin of rejecting His authority has its chance to play its hand-man’s will reigns along with pain suffering and death. But here we can also taste of the goodness and love of God. This world is a merciful reprieve from annihilation where He can accomplish in us the very work you say He doesn’t desire; a will molded into union with His. Or it’s a place where we can finalize our rejection of Him and know eternal death. In any case, the more we grow in love for God, the more acutely aware we become of the separation we must endure here-until we “see face to face”.

Well, here’s what the Bible says about hell:

• Hell was created by God
• The stated purpose for its creation was a place to send the devil and his angels.
• We also find out that it will be the home of all those who have sinned against God.
• It is not just eternal destruction or separation from God, but includes constant torment. (Rev. 20:10)
• Matthew 13:41,50 says that “The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather from his kingdom everything that causes sin as well as all lawbreakers…and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
• The Bible calls those who enter into hell as entering the “second death.” (Rev. 20:15; 21:8)
• Once you find yourself in hell, there is no getting out. (Luke 16)

There is much more that the Bible says, but this is good for starters.