Why is predestination wrong

[SHW]

continued…

Originally Posted by SHW
But our disagreement is that I believe that after God foresaw with His foreknowledge every act of ours for our entire lives on earth before we were born, that our future free will actions determined whether God placed us into His hand in the first place. He predestined us to eternal life as a result of His foreknowledge of every event and action of our life.

by PEPCIS: For sure, we disagree in this area. But that does not give you carte blanche to proclaim that someone can lose their salvation, or that they MUST WORK to maintain it.

First, we are reconciled to God through the free gift of grace. Then we must “work out our salvation with fear and trembling” in order to continue in this reconciliation/state of grace with God. Philippians 2:12

Romans 11:22 “Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness (reconciliation/state of grace). Otherwise you also will be cut off.”

We must continue to be in the state of grace or we will be cut off (damned). To remain in God’s goodness is conditional on whether you obey His commandments or not.

2 Thessalonians 1:8 “in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

1 Peter 1:17 “And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear;”

Originally Posted by SHW
It is true that all those who have been given to the Son will endure to the end. What we disagree on is God’s criterion for giving them to the Son in the first place. Once God gives them to His Son, they are saved forever.

by PEPCIS: Then how can they lose their salvation? Why bother doing good works if you “are saved forever”? You’re not being consistent in what you teach. See, the issue is not HOW you get into God’s hand, though that is the purpose of this thread. The issue that you and I have been going round on is whether you can lose your salvation, which is what you have been teaching.

James 2:20 “But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?” No works? Then faith is dead and this dead faith will not save you.

Persons were given to Jesus (put into His hand) because of God’s foreknowledge of every act of every person while they are living until their last breaths. This was seen before we were created. Persons first become reconciled with God through the free gift of grace through baptism. After this reconciliation they can sin mortally and fall away, and then become reconciled again before death. This falling away and reconciling again can happen many times during their lifetimes. However, God** pre-judged** the final state of their souls at their deaths in His foreknowledge and He predestined because of what He foreknew about them (He saw that they would remain faithful until death).

I do not believe in “OSAS.” God saw who was going to be saved at the end of our lives and He predestined them accordingly. I believe that salvation is a process; not a one-time event. When I said that “Once God gives them to His Son, they are saved forever,” I meant that as a result of God’s foreknowledge He put into His hand only those persons whom He knew would be saved on Judgment Day. They are saved “forever” once they are placed into His hand because they do not get into His hand unless they are going to be the state of grace when they die.

Originally Posted by SHW
1 Peter 1:2 “elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:”

What did God foresee in His foreknowledge that made Him decide whether to predestine some persons for eternal life?

by PEPCIS: You’re putting predestination in the verse that doesn’t teach about it, and then trying to form a question about predestination regarding this verse that doesn’t talk about it.

He foresaw every act of every person for their whole lives (before they were created). He predestined persons using this knowledge. The criterion for choosing the elect was the state of their souls when they died. He saw the state of their souls at their deaths before they were created. (foreknowledge)

We are first saved by grace. Then we are judged by our works as proof of our faith.

James 2:24 “You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.”
**
How are we judged on Judgment Day?** BY OUR WORKS!

by PEPCIS: This verse talks about the elect being foreknown by God. If you want to know about how God predestines, and the Ordo Salutis, then you will have to go to another Scripture, like Romans 8.

Romans 8:1 “There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.”

Romans 8:13 “For** if you live according to the flesh you will die**; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.”

We must be “in Christ Jesus.” Paul states that if the believers live according to the flesh (if they sin) they will die (lose their salvation.)

Read Ezekiel 33:12-20 It states exactly what happens if a righteous (saved) person sins. He is no longer saved.

Blessings,
SHW

 

[benedictus2]

quote] What I do know is that not everyone will make it to heaven. That tells me that there will surely be many who will die before they repent.

Theoretically I agree with you. But I cannot be sure about that as I am still this side eternity.

Well, that doesn’t make any sense to me. How can God be any more merciful than He is. God’s mercy is perfect mercy. But that mercy is mitigated by His Justice and His retribution.

Actually I think it is the other way around. God’s justice is mitigated by His mercy. If this were not so, He would not have sent His Only Son to save us. If we only went by God’s Justice, we are all destined for hell without any hope of salvation.

Not only that, but it fails to agree with what you have previously stated. Previously, you have stated that you believe that the power to choose salvation is ultimately in man’s hand. God proffers it, but man must exercise it. This may be true, but it means that there will be many men who will fail to exercise their choice for God. That will negate the mercy of God, because God’s mercy will make no matter if man does not avail himself of it.

No, it will not negate the mercy of God. The mercy is still there being offered. Man will refuse that mercy. So God’s justice has to be enforced.

Yes, He loves all His

people. And that is Biblical language which does not include the whole world.
How can the whole world not be His people when He created each and everyone of us?

Not to mention, What kind of a loving God would He be if the wicked were never punished, and were allowed to continue to persecute and prey upon the people?

Oh, but they are punished. Just not damned. That is of course, provided they repent before death.
I think a very apt slogan at this point is :
[sign] **Destroy your enemy. Make him your friend. **[/sign]

I’m using Biblical language to denote that Hell is a place where the fire burns, the worm that eats flesh does not die, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth, etc.

"And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments. . .for I am tormented in this flame. . .I pray thee. . .that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house. . .that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. ” Luke 16:23, 24, 27, 28)

Jesus: “And shall cast them into a FURNACE OF FIRE…” (Matthew 13:42)

Jesus says: “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting FIRE. . .” (Matthew 25:41)

“And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the LAKE OF FIRE.” (Rev. 20:15)

What’s important to keep in mind through all of these Scriptures is that Jesus confirmed that EVERYONE gets resurrected to one of two different eternities: one is heaven, the other is hell. Both are very real places.

As you said it is Bbilical language. Torment there will be. But the flames or fire may not be the kind of fire we know of. We have to remember than when we get to eternity, it will not be like kind of physical world we know now.

Many people will wish that were true when their resurrection occurs.

If they wished that then they have no idea what they are wishing for. There is nothing worse than to be separated from God. That is why the martyrs were able to endure all kinds of torture and pain, because they were united to God. No l pain can compare to the pain of separation from God.

 

[benedictus2]

Except for this little thing called “predestination.” Apparently, it’s ok if God looks down the corriders of time, and sees that someone chooses Him, and so He predestinates that person to enter the kingdom of Heaven, as long as you don’t have to say that He looks down the corriders of time, and sees that someone rejects Him, and so He predestinates that person to enter Hell

You can’t have it both ways.

Both cases do not go under the label of predestination as Calvin or the Catholic Church understands predestination.
Predestination under Calvinistic doctrine precludes the person exercising free-will and so doing good or evil independently.
Your examples are just illustrations the ordinary understanding of salvation and damnation but not predestination.

Don’t get ahead of yourself! I was just “agreeing” to point out that those who refuse God’s salvation end up in Hell.

Yes! But it does not mean that God did not offer salvation to them. They refused. The whole point of predestination from Calvinistic viewpoint is that some were not offered salvation at all.

Pope John Paul II made a huge mistake when he stated that hell was “not a punishment imposed externally by God.” The pontiff declared that the Bible “uses a symbolical language” to speak of Hell. But as I have pointed out here, and elsewhere, that is stretching the limits of credible Bible exegesis.

Actually not. JPII is correct. Hell is not imposed externally by God because it is our choices that send us there. God does not push you into the ravine. Rather in running away from God you fall into the ravine.

So yes, a perfect MERCIFUL, LOVING, GOD WHO WILL “not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.” A MERCIFUL, LOVING, GOD WHO DECLARES that “all liars shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”

Only if they do not repent of their sins before death.

 

[benedictus2]

You don’t get ME at all. I understood you perfectly. If you choose to speak in those terms, I won’t say anything more. I speak for myself when I state that I will not try to denigrate God by saying that you don’t worship Him. I won’t exchange the God that you worship for a "g"od that you imagine.

I believe that in trying to speak about the God that you worship as a little “g”, that I denigrate Jehovah. If I really believe that you worship Jehovah, then I won’t try to make disparaging comments about Him by referring to Him as little “g”.

The Bible teaches us that [sign]"Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. . .If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also. (I John 4:11, 20, 21)[/sign]

This means that I MUST speak of God the same way that I would speak of you - in love. If I speak of God disrespectfully, then I speak of you disrespectfully, and vice versa.

I am NOT trying to judge you. I am convicted of this as a sin in my heart, and I repent of it. Thank you for understanding. :hug1:

Okay, that explanation I get.

PS I use a small g for god when I feel the God being described is not the God of the Bible, a Just, Merciful and Loving God.

 

[benedictus2]

Of course. God desires that all men would be saved, but He only wills for His elect to be saved.

Are you saying that God is acting contrary to His desire?

God also desires that ALL men would obey Him**. Why do they not? Because, as you say, free will. I say it is due to His discretion**

.
So are you saying here that man disobeyed God because God willed that they would disobey Him?
If He willed for man to disobey Him, and His Willing is effective then that makes Him an unjust God because he is punishing man for a sin man could not avoid committing because god has already willed that he should commit this sin.

It is in His plan. Who am I to know the mind of God? I can only tell you what He has revealed to us in His Word.

But where in His word did it say that He willed for some men to disobey him?

No. Man changed His design.

But as you yourself said, His design continues. How can His design continue if man has already changed that design? Man cannot alter God’s design.
I am beginning t think that we mean two different things here by God’s design.

 

[SHW]

The “Church” is not the Roman Catholic Church, but the body of Christ in a local area. In spite of the multitude of sects, the Body of Christ still agrees on much. This is no different than the several dioceses of churches with the RC faith.

The Church as stated in the Bible is the Catholic Church. All other churches are not the one that Jesus started. Some of their doctrines are different than Jesus’ Church, the Catholic (universal) Church. Jesus started one Church. He gave His authority to one Church. He promised to be with this one church until the end of the age (until He returns again) Matthew 28:19-20. He sent the Holy Spirit to guide it (John 14:26). How can it teach error if the Holy Spirit is guiding it? How can it teach error when Jesus said that He would be with it always? Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

Jesus said to the Apostles: “He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.” Luke 10:16 Jesus gave His authority to the Apostles (leaders) of one Church.

Jesus stated that His Church has the authority to bind and loose, and to forgive sins, and that its decisions would be upheld by heaven itself (Matthew 18:18, John 20:23). This is Authority!

Jesus’ Church is Apostolic. The faith is passed down from the Apostles throughout the ages. How is it passed down?

Paul states in 2 Timothy 2:2 “And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.”

The faith is passed down from original Apostles to “new” faithful men. Apostolic succession.

1 Corinthians 11:2 “Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you.”

2 Thessalonians 2:15 “Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.”

Oral traditions and written traditions and worship traditions are all part of Church teaching called Sacred Tradition.

These traditions were taught by the Apostles who appointed others and told them to teach others also and these traditions have now been passed down for 2000 years.

The first example of Apostolic succession is recorded in Acts 1:15-28.

The “several dioceses of churches with the RC faith” need to all be teaching exactly the same thing or else they are pseudo-Catholic churches and they are not in communion with the teachings of the Pope and the Magisterium and they are therefore heretical.

What does Paul state about heretics?

Galatians 1:8 “But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.”

It was already the universal Church in the Apostles time:

Romans 1:8 “First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.” This means the whole known world at that time in history.

by PEPCIS “This passage of Scripture deals more with discipline than it does interpretation of Scripture.”

 

[benedictus2]

PEPCIS:

1. 
   *]God loves HIS people.
   *]God hates sinners.
   Take 2.
   
   If God loves HIS people but hates sinners, then that means that only those who are good, have never commited a sin, belong to the “His people” category.
   
   Since we are all sinners by vritue of orginal sin, then God hates us all.
   
   Furthermore, can anyone say that they have not commited a single personal sin?
   

   God will one day judge the world, and send all those who have failed to accept His Son as Savior to hell.

   But we know that many have died and will die who do not even get an opportunity to accept or deny His Son as Savioiur?
   
   These people have not even been given the chance to accept or not to accept Jesus.
   
   Are they saved then because they have not failed?
   But then again, are they damned becuase they have not accepted?
   

   So if we separate ourselves from God, do we send ourselves to Hell?

   Yes. We send ourselves to Hell. In running away from God we fall down the cliff. But God does not take you to the cliff then gives you a push.

 

[LutheranDK]

Is it possible to resist God’s will?

Most definately yes!
This shouldn’t even be a discussion, as it is completely clear from Scripure: It is possible for people to NOT do the will of God; indeed, it is our basic condition: We defy God’s will. What’s POSSIBLE is to DO the will of God.

 

[benedictus2]

**It is all about a works righteousness for Catholics here; only they aren’t allow to call it that. Many just do not recognize it. For example, they are taught water baptism removes sin and is required for salvation; when the Scriptural truth is that baptism of the Holy Spirit, a different baptism, is required…big difference. **

---

Actually we’ve gone through that before and you have not proven that water baptism is not required. Because Scripture clearly says it is.

**

**
** Anyone can be sprinkled or dipped in water in the name of Jesus and the other only God can do the true baptism into Jesus that produces a regenerate heart and a new man. **

---

When people are baptised it is God who sends His Holy Spirit. But He willed / chose to do the sending of the Holy Spirit this way. By water Baptism.

---

---

 

[benedictus2]

I can’t, and won’t, answer the question because it is invalid.

God does not give power to EVERYONE to believe. That was a notion which was taught by Pelagius in the 3rd and 4th century which the Catholic Church condemned at the Council of Carthage (418) as Heresy.

But it is not invalid. It is a hypothetical question. I am no asking about what God will do. I am asking what will YOU do?
So IF YOU are a judge.and one of your errant daughters/sons has been brought before you because they have committed a crime. You can have them electrocuted or you can have them jailed and while in jail have them reformed. These are all in your power.
What will you do?

There is nothing invalid about that question.

I think you are afraid to answer because deep in your heart you know that if you are the parent and you have the power, the ability to change your son, you will choose that option because you love your son. But if you choose that option then that makes your more merciful than God.

God does not love “unconditionally” and the Bible does not teach that.

Yes, He does and yes it does.

If you really believe that then that is really sad. No wonder you have awful god in your head.

1. 
   *]Christ died for “us” (that would be the elect) while we were still sinners.
   *]Christ died for the elect ONLY.

1. 
   You keep posting things like this and you wonder why I say you have a murderous, psychopathic God in your head?
   
   Okay, here it is again.
   
   God created all human beings.
   If Christ died only for the elect (for which there is really no criteria save for god’s whim), therefore He purposely created some with the view of saving them (the elect) and He purposely created some with the view of damning them (the damned).
   
   So even before He created them, He knew he was going to damn them. He was gong to make them sin so that He can damn them. He is going to punish them fro all eternity for something they cannot help (because He himself made them sin).
   
   Based on the above (which by the way all follow from the two points you wrote) the god you describe is:
   
   1)a psychopath who must relish torturing people (why else would he create them just ot damn them to eternal fire)
   2)unjust – punishes them for something he made them do
   3)biased / prejudiced – creates people but loves only some. Those he loves he saves, those he hates , he makes them sin so that he can throw them in hell.
   4) He makes belief in him a criteria for being saved but that he does not give to everyone so if you don’t believe in him it is not your fault because he has not given you that belief. So once again, he is unjust. Punishing you for not having something he should have given you in the first place
   

   of course you can. The Bible spells it out. Being separated from God, PLUS being in torment for eternity.

   The torment is being away from God.
   

   Sorry, that doesn’t make sense to me. God is all for me. But since I cannot lose what I cannot gain, and I cannot keep what I can’t control, then I have nothing to worry about - because God does it all for me.

   If God is really ALL for you, then hell would be losing that ALL. No pain can be greater than losing that ALL.

 

[NonCatholic]

Take 2.

If God loves HIS people but hates sinners, then that means that only those who are good, have never commited a sin, belong to the “His people” category.

Since we are all sinners by vritue of orginal sin, then God hates us all.

Furthermore, can anyone say that they have not commited a single personal sin?

But we know that many have died and will die who do not even get an opportunity to accept or deny His Son as Savioiur?

These people have not even been given the chance to accept or not to accept Jesus.

Are they saved then because they have not failed?
But then again, are they damned becuase they have not accepted?

Yes. We send ourselves to Hell. In running away from God we fall down the cliff. But God does not take you to the cliff then gives you a push.

**
Here is the difference: God does hate sin and sinners.
Psalm 1:5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, Nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.

This is straightforward: 1 Samuel 15:18 Now the Lord sent you on a mission, and said, ‘Go, and utterly destroy the sinners, the Amalekites, and fight against them until they are consumed.’

By your definition and understanding; none of us are saved; but God is not finished.

Psalm 25:8 Good and upright is the Lord; Therefore He teaches sinners in the way.

By the way; notice Who does the teaching. God Himself through the Holy Spirit utilizing preaches and teachers, not a religious Body.**

 

[NonCatholic]

But it is not invalid. It is a hypothetical question. I am no asking about what God will do. I am asking what will YOU do?
So IF YOU are a judge.and one of your errant daughters/sons has been brought before you because they have committed a crime. You can have them electrocuted or you can have them jailed and while in jail have them reformed. These are all in your power.
What will you do?

There is nothing invalid about that question.

I think you are afraid to answer because deep in your heart you know that if you are the parent and you have the power, the ability to change your son, you will choose that option because you love your son. But if you choose that option then that makes your more merciful than God.
Yes, He does and yes it does.

Think of it this way, the saved are “love gifts” from the Father to the Son. The Father has already chosen the gifts. We are secondary, not primary. Hard to handle unless you are saved by grace through faith in Christ.

If you really believe that then that is really sad. No wonder you have awful god in your head.

You keep posting things like this and you wonder why I say you have a murderous, psychopathic God in your head?

Okay, here it is again.

God created all human beings.
If Christ died only for the elect (for which there is really no criteria save for god’s whim), therefore He purposely created some with the view of saving them (the elect) and He purposely created some with the view of damning them (the damned).

So even before He created them, He knew he was going to damn them. He was gong to make them sin so that He can damn them. He is going to punish them fro all eternity for something they cannot help (because He himself made them sin).

Based on the above (which by the way all follow from the two points you wrote) the god you describe is:

1)a psychopath who must relish torturing people (why else would he create them just ot damn them to eternal fire)
2)unjust – punishes them for something he made them do
3)biased / prejudiced – creates people but loves only some. Those he loves he saves, those he hates , he makes them sin so that he can throw them in hell.
4) He makes belief in him a criteria for being saved but that he does not give to everyone so if you don’t believe in him it is not your fault because he has not given you that belief. So once again, he is unjust. Punishing you for not having something he should have given you in the first place

The torment is being away from God.

If God is really ALL for you, then hell would be losing that ALL. No pain can be greater than losing that ALL.

 

[benedictus2]

Here is the difference: God does hate sin and sinners.
Psalm 1:5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, Nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.

Yes, but where in this verse you quoted that it says that God hates sinners. All it says that the sinners will not bein the congregation of the righteous. Why? because he will change the sinners and make them righteous.

As I keep saying and which is something you keeep missing, God died for sinners. Jesus said He came for the sinners. IF God hated sinners, he would not have died for sinners. Do you understand that at all?

This is straightforward: 1 Samuel 15:18 Now the Lord sent you on a mission, and said, 'Go, and utterly destroy the sinners, the Amalekites, and fight against them until they are consumed.’

**
Yes indeed it is straight forward. Notice in this verse that he particularly names the Amalekites. Not sinners in general but the Amalekites.

Take David for example. He stole Bathsheba in the most despicable way. He sinned. Did God destroy David? No.
What did he do? He sent Nathan to call David to repentance. That is how God destroys sinners. By destroying their sin so that they are no longer sinnners.

By your definition and understanding; none of us are saved; but God is not finished.

Psalm 25:8 Good and upright is the Lord; Therefore He teaches sinners in the way.

Exactly! You keep proving my point. If God hates sinners, why would he teach them His ways? He would just send everyone to damnation if He hated sinners.
But no, He hates the sin but loves the sinners. That is why He teaches sinners in the way so that they will no longer be sinners.

By the way; notice Who does the teaching. God Himself through the Holy Spirit utilizing preaches and teachers, not a religious Body.

**

Yes, God teaches us through the Holy Spirt. Now remember what Jesus said. If we who are evil will not give our children snake if they asked for bread, how much more will God not give us the Holy Spirit if we asked for it?

If God hates us (remember we are all sinners) then He would not give us the Holy Spirit. The fact that He gives us the Holy Spirit (sinful though we are) means that He loves us even though we are sinners. He loves us so much that is why He gives us His Spirit so that by the power of this same spirit, we will cease to be sinners.

And another thing is. **if **God hates sinners, because we are all sinners, (yes, including you, you are also a sinner) then that means God hates us too, which means that God hates you too.

So think about that. Based on your argument, God hates you.

That is not me saying that God hates you, but you, yourself who are saying that when you say that God hates sinners.

 

[benedictus2]

Think of it this way, the saved are “love gifts” from the Father to the Son. The Father has already chosen the gifts. We are secondary, not primary. Hard to handle unless you are saved by grace through faith in Christ.

Okay, please,please employ some rationality and logic into your thinking.

How can the “saved” be “love gifts” from the Father to the Son, when it is the Son who does the “saving” by dying on the cross? If anything, it is the Son who is giving us back to the Father. Do you understand that at all?

The error in your post is in the stupid analogy that we are “love gifts’. We are not love gifts. Quite the contrary, Jesus is the gift to us. This is something that most people completely miss at Christmas. Jesus is the gift.

John says **God **loved the world so much so **He gave US **His only Son.

We are not the gifts being given, we are the RECEIVER of the GIFT.

---

So remember this, by virtue of being a sinner, you cannot claim to be one of the elect, because according to you, there is the elect and there is the sinner and you are either one or the other.

Since the only FACT we know is that we are all sinners, then you are a sinner, therefore not a member of the elect.

 

[fhansen]

Well, here’s what the Bible says about hell:

• Hell was created by God
• The stated purpose for its creation was a place to send the devil and his angels.
• We also find out that it will be the home of all those who have sinned against God.
• It is not just eternal destruction or separation from God, but includes constant torment. (Rev. 20:10)
• Matthew 13:41,50 says that “The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather from his kingdom everything that causes sin as well as all lawbreakers…and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
• The Bible calls those who enter into hell as entering the “second death.” (Rev. 20:15; 21:8)
• Once you find yourself in hell, there is no getting out. (Luke 16)

There is much more that the Bible says, but this is good for starters.

And the CC agrees with this and yet asserts that “The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.”(CCC) But this should be little surprise to Christians.

She also maintains that God predestines no one to hell. Either way, we now know only in part what to expect upon entering the next life, where we’ll then “see face to face”.

 

[Pete_Holter]

“Equally hateful to God are the ungodly man and his ungodliness, for what was done will be punished together with him who did it” (Wisdom 14:9-10).

PEPCIS and NonCatholic: If you embrace the Catholic faith, you’ll be able to add these verses to your arsenal!

 

[NonCatholic]

"RandyCarson:

Is it possible to resist God’s will?

Most definately yes!
This shouldn’t even be a discussion, as it is completely clear from Scripure: It is possible for people to NOT do the will of God; indeed, it is our basic condition: We defy God’s will. What’s POSSIBLE is to DO the will of God.

**Romans 9:19-20 19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it?

So obvious isn’t it?**

 

[benedictus2]

**By your definition and understanding; none of us are saved; but God is not finished. **

Actually I did not say that at all and that is not my understanding.

My conclusion that none of us are saved follow from PEPCIS’s statement that God loves His People (so saves them) but hates sinners (so damns them)

When you make statements like that you open yourself to all sorts of terrible conclusions.

If God hates sinners and loves His people, then NONE OF US belong to His People because WE ARE ALL SINNERS. So therefore none of us are saved.

You have created two mutually exclusive groups, His People and the Sinners and that is not who it is at all.

If you read the Bible, it says there that His people ARE the sinners.

For one thing, IF His People ARE NOT the SINNERS then really there was no reason for Christ to come BECAUSE THE WHOLE POINT OF CHRIST’S COMING IS TO SAVE SINNERS.

 

[benedictus2]

Most definately yes!

*This shouldn’t even be a discussion, as it is completely clear from Scripure: It is possible for people to NOT do the will of God; indeed, it is our basic condition: We defy God’s will. What’s POSSIBLE is to DO the will of God. *

**Romans 9:19-20 19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? **For who resists His will?****” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it?

So obvious isn’t it?

You are misunderstanding Romans 9 if you are using this to support your view.

Put it this way. God’s WILL for us is found in the Ten Commandments.

If man cannot oppose God’s will, then there should not be anyone alive who has broken the Ten Commandments. And yet here we are in our billions, breaking each and everyone one of those on a daily basis.

 

[NonCatholic]

Okay, please,please employ some rationality and logic into your thinking.

How can the “saved” be “love gifts” from the Father to the Son, when it is the Son who does the “saving” by dying on the cross? If anything, it is the Son who is giving us back to the Father. Do you understand that at all?

The error in your post is in the stupid analogy that we are “love gifts’. We are not love gifts. Quite the contrary, Jesus is the gift to us. This is something that most people completely miss at Christmas. Jesus is the gift.

John says **God **loved the world so much so **He gave US **His only Son.

We are not the gifts being given, we are the RECEIVER of the GIFT.

---

So remember this, by virtue of being a sinner, you cannot claim to be one of the elect, because according to you, there is the elect and there is the sinner and you are either one or the other.

Since the only FACT we know is that we are all sinners, then you are a sinner, therefore not a member of the elect.

What does the Bible say in this regard?

John 17 "Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You, 2 even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life.

I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; 10 and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them.

"Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me

John 6 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day

**Should we go to Romans? **

You do not understand the things of God and this is of grave concern.