Why is predestination wrong

[PEPCIS]

[SIGN]"After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him

." (John 17:1-2)[/SIGN]
"benedictus:

Well how do you know that ALL OF US has not been given to Christ? How do you you know that only some have been given to Christ.

PEPCIS:

Because the Bible says so. It’s not a matter of some being given to Christ, while others having a tougher time of it. All those who have NOT been given to Christ WILL NOT ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN.

But that is just the point. We have all been given to Christ.

Why do you directly oppose the Word of God? Notice that the Bible verse I quoted DOES NOT SAY that all have been given to Christ. It says that he grants salvation only to those who have been given to him OUT OF ALL MEN.

This is how it works:

• “granted him authority over all men”
• “so that he might give eternal life to SOME men.”

You are spouting universalism. Universalism is a doctrine that states that we all have been given to Christ (given salvation), or we are otherwise all going to heaven. Please show us where the Bible indicates that ALL HAVE BEEN GIVEN TO CHRIST.

Also, keep in mind that “given to Christ” is Biblical terminology which defines those who have been placed into the hand of Christ and are saved.

benedictus:

For the very reason that God gave Christ authority over ALL of us, we have ALL been GIVEN TO HIM.

That is pure nonsense. The Bible says the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you claim. The Bible says that Christ has been given authority over all so that He can give SOME eternal life.

Jesus says that there are even some who will try to claim works of righteousness in order to be approved and enter into heaven - just like the doctrines that you profess of working your way into heaven - and they will come to Him in “that day” and say…

benedictus:

Which is totally unrelated to the matter at hand. This has more to do with whether belief alone in him is enough. This is not about predestination.

Of course it is. If it requires MORE THAN FAITH to be saved, then predestination is nothing.

Actually it is NOT CLEAR at all that God had not given Him the WHOLE WORLD. NOWHERE IN THE VERSE YOU QUOTED ABOVE [John 17:1-2] DOES IT SAY THAT.

PEPCIS:

Of course it does. You are choosing, based solely upon Church propaganda, to deny the Scriptures a plainly read interpretation, choosing instead to modify the meaning to incorporate the understanding that everyone gets to heaven.

benedictus:

No I am not. I am relying on what scripture says. Tell me where abouts in this verse does it contradict what I have written. I am arguing my point based solely on the text of the verse that you quoted.

You are arguing based on Church propaganda. It clearly states that God gave Him all so that He might save SOME. Eternal life does not go to everyone, so the verse CANNOT be saying that God “gave Him all.” That’s why “authority” is not the equal of “giving eternal life”.

John 17:1-2 clearly states that Jesus will save only those whom God has given to Him. Not the whole world.

benedictus:

But God has given Him the whole world. That is why He is Lord of Heaven and Earth.

No, God has given Him AUTHORITY over the whole world. This is much different than giving all men eternal life. As always, you keep on trying to have your cake and eat it too!

[sign]"I pray for them: I pray not for the world

, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are."[/sign]

benedictus:

This verse is not about predestination. This is about Jesus praying for unity in His Church. He is praying that those who will be called into His Church will be united.

This verse speaks clearly of predestination, showing that the world is SEPARATE from those who are saved. Christ doesn’t pray for the whole world, but He does pray for those who are His!

 

[NonCatholic]

The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector … Luke 18:9-14

He then addressed this parable to those who were convinced of their own righteousness and despised everyone else.

Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: “God, I thank you that I am not like other men - robbers, evildoers, adulterers - or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.”

But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, “God, have mercy on me, a sinner.”

I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.

Look at my profile; I am a tax collector…LOL

 

[SHW]

Consider the words of the Lord; he is talking to religious people; like yourself, then reconcile it to my previous post about most people are baptzied and will not enter into heaven:

Matthew 7:13-14 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14 “For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.”

Notice there are many who are on the broad road; are you one of them? These are the same religious people that say they do this and that for the Lord and He will say “depart from me, you who practice lawlessness”. Are you one of them?

I agree that many baptized persons will not enter heaven. IF they sin grievous sins after their baptisms, they are no longer saved. They have “defiled their temples” and the Holy Spirit no longer lives in them. (1 Corinthians 3:16-18) They have “trampled the Son of God underfoot” by their sinning and so they have “insulted the Spirit of grace” and now Christ’s sacrifice on the cross no longer saves them. (Hebrews 10:26-27)

To “practice lawlnessness” means to disobey God’s commandments (laws).

Ephesians 5:5-7 “For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.”

Colossians 3:5-7 “Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, 7 in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them.”

Ephesians 2:1-3 “And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.”

If you cooperate with Satan, the prince of the air, and use your free will to sin, then you are a son of disobedience. The Holy Spirit is not living in your temple (soul).

Romans 8:14 “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.”

If you cooperate with the Holy Spirit, who is living in your temple (soul), and use your free will to obey God and produce good fruit, then you are a son of God.

Philippians 2:12-13 “Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence,** work** out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.”

We work out our own salvation with fear and trembling but God is helping us (working in us) to help us to do His will. We are cooperating with His grace when we do this. (John 15:4-5)

Luke 20:35-37 “But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. 37 But even Moses showed in the burning bush passage that the dead are raised, when he called the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.”

Galatians 3:26 “For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27** For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ**.”

When we are baptized, we put on Christ. We are now “in Christ” and God lives within us.

John 14:21-23 “He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.” 22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, “Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?” 23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.”

1 John 3:4 “Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.”

Matthew 7:23 "And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness (commit sin)!’"

Blessings,
SHW

 

[SHW]

Scott Hahn has an interesting take on this. He says that Heaven is hotter than hell because God is described as an all consuming fire.

I have to disagree with Scott Hahn if indeed he said that heaven is hotter than hell.

Blessings,
SHW

 

[PEPCIS]

I think we can all agree, Catholic and Protestant alike, that persons who are going to heaven were predestined to go there. The remaining question is this: What criterion did God use in order to predestine them?

1 Peter 1:2

You are doing a disservice to God’s Word by trying to say that this verse speaks of predestination. It DOESN’T. You are right to say that this verse says that the elect are chosen according to God’s foreknowledge. But that doesn’t mean that God’s foreknowledge is a result of God knowing what the future is and REACTING according to that, or if it is a result of His predetermined will.

Yet you go on to BOLDLY proclaim that this verse teaches that. You say: “Because of what He saw by His foreknowledge, He predestined some persons to heaven.”

SHW:

Romans 8:29 “For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.”

Paul is stating that those that God foreknew (to be in fellowship with Him is implied) by His foreknowledge, He also predestined.

Wrong. Paul is stating that God foreknew the elect, which is knowledge based upon His predetermined will.

SHW:

As a result of His impartial judgment, He only predestined for eternal life those who would still be in fellowship with Him at their deaths.

Slow down there! If God predestined us to be conformed to the image of His Son, and that conformity to the image of His Son is based upon Him seeing us choosing His Son and conforming ourselves to His image, who is doing the conforming???

According to your convoluted version, we MUST conform ourselves, yet by doing so, we take God’s part away - that’d be the part where HE PREDESTINES US to be conformed to His Will. But if He predestines us to be conformed to His will, then that means that we don’t need to do anything to conform to His will, because we will do it without desiring it. But then, why do you insist that we MUST conform to be saved???

That makes no sense at all.

 

[PEPCIS]

I will repeat what I said to Non. There are far more members and posts than there are moderators. It behooves us all to spur one another on to good deeds and civility. As a forum supporter, I have an obligation to follow the rules, and to report when they are not followed.

 

[PEPCIS]

"PEPCIS:

I am accusing Catholics of something that they teach. If it doesn’t conform to Catholic dogma, then THEY need to change, not me.

It is something you mistakely believe that the Church teaches.

Perhaps you might agree that I have become mistaken because of what I am told by Catholics?
quanophore:

…you might be able to realize that Catholics believe we are saved by grace, through faith, and that it is an unmerited Gift of God.

If that were the case, then I would not be repeatedly told that we must work our way to get to heaven. Why do you suppose that is?

I am simply going by what all of you collectively have stated. benedictus has repeatedly stated a belief in works-righteousness, as well as SHW.

quanophore:

I have no doubt you perceive it this way.

I SHOWED you his statements. It’s not a matter of my perceptions, but what he has said. Apparently, your perceptions are muddled.

If you need to MAINTAIN your salvation, it is no different than bringing yourself salvation, since salvation is NEVER complete (according to your own testimony) UNTIL YOU ARE DEAD, and your works have been balanced out to see if you did enough good to make it into heaven.

guanophore:

No, pepcis. No one here has said this except you.

I’m not sure where you’ve had your head at, but it surely hasn’t been in this thread.

guanophore:

Look at it this way. If I shoot someone in the head with a bullet, they will likely die. The bullet caused their death. That bullet cannot, equally, cause life. This is the logical error you are making. You are assuming that, since participation in the works that God has prepared before hand that we should walk in them keep us in His grace, that we are “earning” salvation. This makes about as much sense as the bullet creating life, or sustaining life.

I sure as heck did not fall off the turnip truck, and I can assure you that I know what words mean. Catholics on this forum have repeatedly assured me that if you don’t presevere until the end, then you aren’t saved. That is a works-righteousness doctrine.

That, coupled with the fact that you can lose your salvation, is an egregious error. If you can lose it, that means you never had it. You could never have had it, because you don’t maintain your good works. It’s as simple as that.

Hardly. SHW

says: “We must endure to the end of our lives “in Christ” in order to actually receive our “promise” of eternal life.”

guanophore:

And you believe that those who don’t endure will recieve the promise?

I believe that those who have worked to receive the promise will lose it. We don’t work to earn our salvation. We work because we love Him. There is a difference. Good works are a result of God working in us, not us working in God.
quanophore:

The only work that is efficacious where heaven is concerned is the working out of our salvation because God is within us, willing and working His good pleasure. IT is no longer we that live, but Christ that lives within us. We have died, and our lives are hidden with Christ, in God. Therefore the works that we do, that He prepared before hand that we should walk in them, are worked out in us by grace, through faith, not of ourselves, lest any man should boast.

If that is what you are saying, then great. But that is NOT what SHW is saying.

 

[PEPCIS]

Hay I’m considered about the dumbest person on this forum but even a dummy knows Jesus died for All. Free men and slave,rich men and poor,good and bad.I was taught Baptist but I don’t remember the way you explain it.So Ben, do you see why now? I’m non denominational? Nancy

You’re right, Nancy. Christ’s death on the cross was what we call “efficacious.” That means that His death was fully capable of saving every last soul on Earth, and even those before His day, and those who would be born till the end of time.

The only difference is that not all will be saved. But out of all the elect, there will be free and slave, rich and poor, bad and badder. (Good people don’t need salvation.)

 

[benedictus2]

He shows his ignorance if indeed he said that. A lot of people like quoting him, but he will know the real heat. Do you think he is correct that heaven is hotter than hell?

Quite frankly I don’t know. I am still a pilgrim here on earth. One thing I am pretty sure of is that we always think in the physical terms of the world as we know it now. But eternity is quite different.

As for Scott Hahn feeling the real heat. I think there is more likely hood of you feeling it than him.

 

[benedictus2]

Notice that there are the few on the narrow path; the one I am on. Also notice there a few who “find it”. Why do you suppose the Lord contrasts the many and the few; more importantly, which path are you on? Are you sure? If not, why?

And pride goes before the fall. Adam’s sin.

Those who humble themselves will be exulted. Those who exult themselves will be humbled.

I quite frankly have never read a post overflowing with CONCEIT.

 

[benedictus2]

The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector … Luke 18:9-14

He then addressed this parable to those who were convinced of their own righteousness and despised everyone else.

Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: “God, I thank you that I am not like other men - robbers, evildoers, adulterers - or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.”

But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, “God, have mercy on me, a sinner.”

I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.

Perhaps NonCatholic does not have this in his Bible.

 

[benedictus2]

Consider the words of the Lord; he is talking to religious people; like yourself, then reconcile it to my previous post about most people are baptzied and will not enter into heaven:

**Matthew 7:13-14 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14 “For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.” **

Oh For goodness sake, will you please read my post. That is exactly the point of my reply which went*:*

benedictus2:

*And there is a chance you will be right there because **if ***they continue to sin after their baptism and if before death commited a mortal sin, and **if they failed to repent of this sin, **then yes, they will end up in hell even though they have been baptized.

**The narrow gate is the path of holiness. Tthe path of sin is wide. That is why I said if you commit a mortal sin and do not repent and you die, you will be damned. **

**Notice that there are the few on the narrow path; the one I am on. **

The road you are on is not the narrow path. You are taking the EASY path via your doctrine of OSAS.

 

[benedictus2]

The way that you stated this is a great illustration of the difference between you and I. I accept the Biblical understanding of predestination driving God’s foreknowledge, whereas you create your own understanding of God’s foreknowledge driving predestination. The Bible is crystal clear regarding the ordo salutis.

Well okay then, can you please pick apart where I err in my conclusions here. And I will number them so you can tell me which step my conclusion went wrong.

1. God created all human beings.
2. God pre-destined some to salvation and pre-destined some to damnation.
3. Based on #2, even before He created them, He has already decided that He will save some (the elect) and damn some (the damned)
4. Based on all of the above, He therefore purposely created some for the simple reason of damning them.

Now to make an analogy in human terms, a couple chooses to have as many children as they want, but before even some children were conceived, they have already decided that they themselves, will torture and kill that child.

Parents like that can only be called psychopaths.

Show me where from points 1 to 4 where my error is.

We ought to read the Bible but God gave us that marvelous faculty called reason and we have to employ that faculty when we read the Bible.

 

[benedictus2]

You couldn’t be more wrong. Predestination has EVERYTHING to do with being here on earth, because it is our EARTHLY ACTIONS which speak of our HEAVENLY destinations.

Old Testament Israel entering into the Promised Land is a PICTURE of how God enacts salvation. In the OT, it was the salvation of a nation which rejected Him. In the NT, it is the salvation of a world that rejects Him.

But the term itself “pre-destination”, means that even before we were born we have already been pre-destined.

So therefore our earthly actions were controlled by God. Those he pre-destined to salvation will be controlled in their actions so that they will be "good’, those He has pre-destined to damnation will not be given the grace to be good.

So taking into account all you have said, even our EARTLY ACTIONS have been pre-determined.

That is why I have been saying over and over again, please bring in free-will into your arguments.

We have free-will. It is only when you deny free-will that you come up with your “understanding” of pre-destination.

 

[benedictus2]

I NEVER said that He was not for us. The question (may I remind you?) which Paul said, not me, is a RHETORICAL question. We KNOW that God is for us, therefore, if God is for us, then who, or what, could possibly be against us? Who could have the power to stop the work which God has begun?? Answer: NOBODY!

Yes, but you limit the US. My point here is that the US is more than just the small number of “Christians”. He is for all of us for the simple reason that He created us ALL in love.

You seem to be a bit obtuse here, if you don’t mind me saying so.
You’re defining this passage way too general for what it was speaking of. SPECIFICALLY, this passage was dealing with the progression of salvation of God’s elect.
Notice how Paul states in Romans 8:28: “And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to those who are the called according to his purpose.”

I am sure that I am obtuse, even very obtuse with regards a lot of things but not on this one.
You are reading this verse too narrowly. It says "to them that love God, those who are called according to His purpose. "
First of all, how do you know that those whom He chose not to be reached by the Gospel has been called according to his purpose as well? You assume that his purpose is what YOU know his purpose to be but that His purpose is way bigger than your knowledge of it. You seem to like to limit God to your own image of Him.

There are a lot of people who love God but who have not been reached by the Gospel. It is not their fault that they have not heard of Christ.

St Paul also wrote that God has written His law into all our hearts. So his purpose in one degree or another is made known to all man.

First, you must recognize that Paul is NOT talking of ALL THE WORLD. He is addressing born-again believers in Christ. The question is to them. The question is to "those who are the called according to His purpose.

"
I realize that. But if you go down that track of reasoning, one could also say that it does not apply to us because his letter was addressed to the Romans.

Paul did not have US in mind when he wrote that.

Secondly, the obvious question that flows from this is, “How is it that we know that all things work together for the good of God’s elect?”

Paul follows that with the answer to our question (vss. 29&30):

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

Which takes us back to my original point. God foreknew all of us. There is not one single person He did not foreknow.
This is the one point you keep evading.

 

[benedictus2]

Two things:

1. 
   *]These things which Paul makes mention of (“foreknowledge, predestination, calling, justification, glorification”) are the continuing and unfolding process of salvation.
   *]It is TOTALLY a work of God. We can’t “foreknow”, and we can’t “predestinate”, and we can’t “call” and we can’t "justify, and we can’t “glorify”. Everyone of those works is a function of God.
   That is why Paul could say,
   “For by grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast.”

1. 
   And I never ever said anything contrary to these points.
   I totally agree.
   
   My issue with you has always been about your understanding of predestination and your logic.
   
   You have always come back with Bible verses but have never once come up with an argument that addressed the logic of my conclusions.
   
   When I said that your description of god painted a psychopath for a god you have never challenged that conclusion.
   
   You know why I think that is? It is because based on your statements, you cannot arrive at any other conclusion.
   
   You need to start looking at God from the point of His love.
   
   You put way TOO MUCH emphasis on his justice, wrath etc and you forget that God is love.
   
   I wrote on another thread that any understanding of pre-destination has to have that as it’s first statement.
   GOD IS LOVE.

 

[benedictus2]

Why do you directly oppose the Word of God?

No I do not oppose the Word of God**. I** oppose your understanding of the Word of God. Big difference.

Notice that the Bible verse I quoted DOES NOT SAY that all have been given to Christ. It says that he grants salvation only to those who have been given to him OUT OF ALL MEN.
This is how it works:

• “granted him authority over all men”

If God granted Him authority over ALL MEN, ALL MEN WERE GIVEN TO HIM.
This is the point you completely miss. God gave Christ DOMINION OVER ALL MEN. When one has dominion over something, that something belongs to him.
When one is given dominion of all of creation, all of creation has been given to him.

• “so that he might give eternal life to SOME men.”

The verse DOES NOT SAY THAT. All it says is “ALL YOU HAVE GIVEN HIM”. Since He was given authority over ALL MEN, HE WAS GIVEN ALL MEN.
WE ALL BELONG TO CHRIST. But it does not mean that by our own free-will we can choose to reject Him.
I have already shown that the analogy you gave (or maybe it was someone else) about the factory is not applicable in this case due to some major flaws in your assumptions.

You are spouting universalism. Universalism is a doctrine that states that we all have been given to Christ (given salvation), or we are otherwise all going to heaven. Please show us where the Bible indicates that ALL HAVE BEEN GIVEN TO CHRIST.

I don’t know what universalism is (I must read up on that). All I know is that we have all been given to Christ to save. The grace of Christ’s salvation is given to all. But we can choose to reject that grace.
Our issue is that you don’t consider being given authority over all men as being all men being given to Him.

The reason you get so tied up in your reasoning is because you do not have free-will as a factor in your concept of pre-destination.

Also, keep in mind that “given to Christ” is Biblical terminology which defines those who have been placed into the hand of Christ and are saved.

No. That is YOUR definition.

That is pure nonsense. The Bible says the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you claim. The Bible says that Christ has been given

authority

over all so that He can give SOME eternal life.
Not so since Christ died for all. It is your understanding that Christ died only for some that is clouding your vision.

You are arguing based on Church propaganda. It clearly states that God gave Him all so that He might save SOME.

NO IT DOES NOT. IT IS NOT CLEAR AT ALL.
CHRIST DIED FOR ALL. It is your blinkered view that says otherwise.

Eternal life does not go to everyone, so the verse CANNOT be saying that God “gave Him all.”

The CHOICE of eternal life, He gives to everyone. It is OUR CHOICE.
WE ARE NOT ROBOTS BEING MANIPULATED BY GOD.
WE HAVE FREE-WILL. Start thinking about that.

That’s why “authority” is not the equal of “giving eternal life”.

And I never said it was.

 

[benedictus2]

Look at my profile; I am a tax collector…LOL

Who prays like a pharisee?

 

[benedictus2]

Perhaps you might agree that I have become mistaken because of what I am told by Catholics?

I will post a summary of the Catholic view of predestination and will show you that it is more Biblical and more rational.

 

[benedictus2]

You’re right, Nancy. Christ’s death on the cross was what we call “efficacious.” That means that His death was fully capable of saving every last soul on Earth, and even those before His day, and those who would be born till the end of time.

The only difference is that not all will be saved. But out of all the elect, there will be free and slave, rich and poor, bad and badder. (Good people don’t need salvation.)

If it is fully capable of saving every last soul on Earth, then why is it that not all will be saved?

---

Why will it save only some?