Why is predestination wrong

[benedictus2]

So you’re right that the elect are predestined, but wrong as to how that occurs (cf Eph 1:11).

Hear ye, hear ye! According to Bramble, Eph 1:11 is the first, middle and last word on how predestination works. That is right, one verse in the entire Scripture.

And yes, Brambles interpretation is THE CORRECT interpretation because he is the magisterium of the universal church

God doesn’t owe anything to any of His creatures.

And who here is saying that He does?

 

[SHW]

Either you really don’t understand a word I’m saying, or you’re simply too proud to admit the truth of what I’m saying, as benedictus2 has done?

I do understand what you are saying. I just don’t agree with you!

by Bramble: ISTM you really wouldn’t understand my response, or if you did, you wouldn’t admit its truth.

What does ISTM mean? I am eagerly waiting to be enlightened about OSAS. Please proceed. If I am in error, I do not have difficulty admitting it. However, your proof has to be convincing. I admitted that I was in error to PEPCIS. I am still learning, too, and I will be for as long as I live.

by Bramble (I feel sorry for your boyfriend, or husband, or whatever you might have. Have fun not listening to anyone.

I ask you again:

Since you believe that OSAS is doctrine, please explain: James 2:24 “You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.”

Please explain: 1 Peter 1:16-17 "because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.” 17 And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear;

Blessings,
SHW

 

[SHW]

continuation of post 431
The more we say yes to God the easier it is to say yes.

How true! I still get lost in trying to understand the differences between Thomist and Molinist viewpoints but I appreciate that you have attempted to explain it. I had never heard of either views before.

Blessings,
SHW

 

[Bramble]

SHW:

What does ISTM mean?

It seems to me.

SHW:

I am eagerly waiting to be enlightened about OSAS. Please proceed. If I am in error, I do not have difficulty admitting it… Since you believe that OSAS is doctrine, please explain: James 2:24…1 Peter 1:16-17

To begin, neither James 2:24, nor 1 Pet 1:16-17 have anything to do with the doctrine of eternal security, or as you’re wont to call it, OSAS.

Do you have difficulty admitting that?

 

[Contarini]

Because no believer is guaranteed salvation in this life.

That is a non sequitur. Your response has nothing to do with the doctrine of predestination per se but with the weird Calvinist spin on the doctrine, whereby people can be assured of their election.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Both the Thomist and the Molinist approach the question of pre-destination from a space time continuum and thus limited by the linearity of time.

That is certainly not true of the Thomist view. I’m not sure it’s true of the Molinist view either, but the Thomist position rests on the belief that God exists in an “eternal now.”

Edwin

 

[SHW]

It seems to me.

To begin, neither James 2:24, nor 1 Pet 1:16-17 have anything to do with the doctrine of eternal security, or as you’re wont to call it, OSAS.

Do you have difficulty admitting that?

Since both verses are God’s Word, and God’s Word is True; do they not contradict your doctrine of eternal security? My understanding of the doctrine of “eternal security” is that once a person is saved/justified by “faith alone” that they can not possibly be lost again through sin (either sins of commission or sins of omission). These two types of sins are: failure to obey God’s commandments (commission) and failure to produce good fruit (omission).

James is stating emphatically that we are justified by works and not faith alone.

So if we have eternal security as you believe, then why is James stating that we are not justified/saved by “faith alone” but instead says that we are justified by “works” also?

I say that we are justified by both faith and works.

First we are justified/saved by the free gift of grace through faith (and baptism).

Romans 5:10 “For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.”

This verse states that we were reconciled to God through the death of His son (free gift of grace). How are we then “much more saved by His life?”

This is the second part of justification. He came so that we could imitate His own life on earth so that we learn how to enter eternal life and therefore we can be with Him forever.

1 Corinthians 11:1 “Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.”

How do we imitate Him? We imitate Him when we do the will of the Father which is what He did.

To imitate Jesus, we must obey His commandments and produce good fruit. There are many Scriptures which attest to this statement but I will reference two for now even though one is all I need to prove my point. (Matthew 7:21, Matthew 19:16-19).I will also explain one more:

Matthew 7:19 “Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.”

If the tree (person) is thrown into the fire, then he is destroyed (hellfire). Good fruits are good works.

2 Thessalonians 1:8 “in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Obeying the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ consists of obeying His commandments and producing good fruit and obeying Church leaders as they represent Jesus’ authority on earth.

2 Corinthians 13:10 “Therefore I write these things being absent, lest being present I should use sharpness, according to the authority which the Lord has given me for edification and not for destruction.”

Titus 2:15 “Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you.”

Hebrews 13:7 " Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you, whose faith follow, considering the outcome of their conduct. 8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever."

Hebrews 13:17 “Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you.”

Jesus founded a Church and appointed its leaders. These leaders appointed other leaders to carry on the faith, and this has continued for two thousand years in the Catholic Church. (2 Timothy 2:2)

1 Pet 1:16-17 “because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.”17 And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear;”

1 Peter 5:8 “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.”

Peter warns us that the devil wants us in his abode for eternity and that he will do everything he possibly can to get us there. If we cooperate with him instead of the Holy Spirit’s grace after we are once saved, then we lose our salvation.

This is why the “eternal security” doctrine is not supported by Scripture.

Blessings,
SHW

 

[Bramble]

Since both verses are God’s Word, and God’s Word is True; do they not contradict your doctrine of eternal security? My understanding of the doctrine of “eternal security” is that once a person is saved/justified by “faith alone” that they can not possibly be lost again through sin (either sins of commission or sins of omission). These two types of sins are: failure to obey God’s commandments (commission) and failure to produce good fruit (omission).

James is stating emphatically that we are justified by works and not faith alone.

So if we have eternal security as you believe, then why is James stating that we are not justified/saved by “faith alone” but instead says that we are justified by “works” also?

I say that we are justified by both faith and works.

First we are justified/saved by the free gift of grace through faith (and baptism).

Romans 5:10 “For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.”

This verse states that we were reconciled to God through the death of His son (free gift of grace). How are we then “much more saved by His life?”

This is the second part of justification. He came so that we could imitate His own life on earth so that we learn how to enter eternal life and therefore we can be with Him forever.

1 Corinthians 11:1 “Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.”

How do we imitate Him? We imitate Him when we do the will of the Father which is what He did.

To imitate Jesus, we must obey His commandments and produce good fruit. There are many Scriptures which attest to this statement but I will reference two for now even though one is all I need to prove my point. (Matthew 7:21, Matthew 19:16-19).I will also explain one more:

Matthew 7:19 “Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.”

If the tree (person) is thrown into the fire, then he is destroyed (hellfire). Good fruits are good works.

2 Thessalonians 1:8 “in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Obeying the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ consists of obeying His commandments and producing good fruit and obeying Church leaders as they represent Jesus’ authority on earth.

2 Corinthians 13:10 “Therefore I write these things being absent, lest being present I should use sharpness, according to the authority which the Lord has given me for edification and not for destruction.”

Titus 2:15 “Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you.”

Hebrews 13:7 " Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you, whose faith follow, considering the outcome of their conduct. 8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever."

Hebrews 13:17 “Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you.”

Jesus founded a Church and appointed its leaders. These leaders appointed other leaders to carry on the faith, and this has continued for two thousand years in the Catholic Church. (2 Timothy 2:2)

1 Pet 1:16-17 “because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.”17 And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear;”

1 Peter 5:8 “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.”

Peter warns us that the devil wants us in his abode for eternity and that he will do everything he possibly can to get us there. If we cooperate with him instead of the Holy Spirit’s grace after we are once saved, then we lose our salvation.

This is why the “eternal security” doctrine is not supported by Scripture.

Blessings,
SHW

As the answer to my question, I take that as a “no.” :tiphat:

 

[SHW]

God’s love for us:

Scripture exhorts us to imitate Christ as He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Those who imitate Christ are called Christians. Many persons use the name but are not worthy of this name.

2 Timothy 2:19 “Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity”

2 Thessalonians 3:6 “But we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly and not according to the** tradition** which he received from us.”

Adam was our first parent and he did not do the will of His heavenly Father because he disobeyed God’s commandment and therefore the consequences of his sin were death, etc. and alienation from God for himself and also for all of his descendants.

Adam was not a good role model.

But God still so loved the world after Adam’s sin alienated us from Him that He sent His only Begotten Son to redeem us as a free gift and also so that Jesus could show us by His Life (by example) how to do the will of the Father so that we could inherit eternal life.

Jesus is the perfect role model.

Imitate Him and we will inherit eternal life. Jesus even showed us the necessity of baptism by His own baptism (by John) even though He did not personally need it. We do. And of course, John’s baptism of repentance was but a precursor for Jesus’ command to be baptized for the remission of sins which was not efficacious until after Jesus death and resurrection. (Acts 2:38) Those who received John’s baptism had to be baptized again as the Lord commanded. (Acts 19:1-6, Matthew 28:18-20, Acts 22:16)

Blessings,
SHW

 

[benedictus2]

That is certainly not true of the Thomist view. I’m not sure it’s true of the Molinist view either, but the Thomist position rests on the belief that God exists in an “eternal now.”

Edwin

You’re right both Thoma and Molina know that God exists in eternity but I am not sure if they see it as an eternal “now” (but then I have not really read extensively on either of them)

I suppose what I am trying to say here is that their theories on how predestination works (or at least the way I understand their theories) are still based on linear time with the God’s foreknowledge factored in.

Or perhaps it is the eternal now that I don’t even begin to understand.

 

[PEPCIS]

"SHW:

But our disagreement is that I believe that after God foresaw with His foreknowledge every act of ours for our entire lives on earth before we were born, that our future free will actions determined whether God placed us into His hand in the first place. He predestined us to eternal life as a result of His foreknowledge of every event and action of our life.

PEPCIS:

For sure, we disagree in this area. But that does not give you carte blanche to proclaim that someone can lose their salvation, or that they MUST WORK to maintain it.

First, we are reconciled to God through the free gift of grace.

You do NOT believe that. You say it, but you DON’T believe it.

Then we must “work out our salvation with fear and trembling” in order to continue in this reconciliation/state of grace with God. Philippians 2:12

To be consistent and thorough in your interpretation, it is important that you clearly distinguish between what it means to “work out our salvation with fear and trembling,” and what it means to be “reconciled with God.”

These are two different things taught in Scripture, yet you have changed Scripture to make it seem as though they are one and the same doctrine.

“Working out our salvation” is a cause of our “reconciliation,” but the way that you have worded it, you have made “reconciliation” a cause of our “working out our salvation.”

This is a grievious error.

Reconciliation is SOLELY the sacrificial work of Christ on the Cross. Man could never in a million years do ANYTHING that would result in his reconciliation to the Father. It required the work of Christ on the Cross.

It was by the shedding of Christ’s precious blood on the Cross that God’s wrath was averted. (Col. 1:20) By your introducing this notion that man must work to maintain his salvation, you have caused man’s work to be added to the work of Christ on the cross, and have caused his work to be insufficient to bring about your salvation.

Apart from the work of the cross, no reconciliation with God could ever be possible. For you to state that “we must “work out our salvation with fear and trembling” in order to continue in this reconciliation/state of grace with God,” is to say that the work of the cross was insufficient.

You can (and undoubtedly will) “pooh-pooh” this and say all manner of derision against it, but it is the Word of God, not MY word. It is God’s Word that declares that “Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.” (1 John 4:10)

How is it that you could ever declare anything that claims that man is responsible for the amelioration of his own sins!!!??

[SIGN]"And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God." (2 Cor.5:18-20)[/SIGN]

 

[PEPCIS]

But our disagreement is that I believe that after God foresaw with His foreknowledge every act of ours for our entire lives on earth before we were born, that our future free will actions determined whether God placed us into His hand in the first place. He predestined us to eternal life as a result of His foreknowledge of every event and action of our life.

One interesting thing that I must note is that you proceed from God foreseeing our actions, and then predestinating us according to those actions. If we do not perform what is necessary for salvation, then God will not predestinate.

Once again, you assign the work of God to man. Predestination is the work of God, but in your convoluted doctrine, you have made it the work of man which God foresees. What need is there for God to predestine anyone who already has - by his own actions - secured himself a place in the heavenlies???

So, it is clear, by your interpretation, that man performs the work that becomes his own predestination Congratulations!! You have just succeeded in eliminating the need for Jesus!

 

[benedictus2]

SHW;4785814:

Then we must “work out our salvation with fear and trembling” in order to continue

in this reconciliation/state of grace with God. **Philippians 2:12 **

To be consistent and thorough in your interpretation, it is important that you clearly distinguish between what it means to “work out our salvation with fear and trembling,” and what it means to be “reconciled with God.”

These are two different things taught in Scripture, yet you have changed Scripture to make it seem as though they are one and the same doctrine.

“Working out our salvation” is a cause of our “reconciliation,” but the way that you have worded it, you have made “reconciliation” a cause of our “working out our salvation.”

Actually SHW had it correct but not quite in the way your phrased it. The grace of reconciliation was poured out on us because of Christ’s death on the cross. Because of this grace, we are able to work out our salvation.

If we go with your wording that “working out our salvation is a cause of of reconciliation” you then have a doctrine of reconciiation that rests solely on man’s effort ie. we are reconciled because of our own working.

But that is not the case. God died for us first to open the floodgates of reconciliation. And from this overflowing grace, we are able to work out our salvation.

 

[PEPCIS]

"SHW:

It is true that all those who have been given to the Son will endure to the end. What we disagree on is God’s criterion for giving them to the Son in the first place. Once God gives them to His Son, they are saved forever.

PEPCIS:

Then how can they lose their salvation? Why bother doing good works if you “are saved forever”? You’re not being consistent in what you teach. See, the issue is not HOW you get into God’s hand, though that is the purpose of this thread. The issue that you and I have been going round on is whether you can lose your salvation, which is what you have been teaching.

James 2:20

“But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?” No works? Then faith is dead and this dead faith will not save you.

I am not arguing that a saved man WILL perform good works. Do you eat sand? Do you drink engine oil? Of course not. We eat and drink what God has designed for us. We can do no other! We are forced to eat what God has designed to sustain us. For the same token, a saved man cannot help but produce good fruit. He is designed for no other thing. He may stumble from time to time, but is never sent out from the Father’s hand once in it.

[SIGN]“Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.” (Matthew 7:16-20)[/SIGN]

SHW:

I do not believe in “OSAS.”

It doesn’t really matter if you believe in it or not. The question is, “Does the Bible teach it?” The answer is clearly, “Yes!”

SHW:

God saw who was going to be saved at the end of our lives and He predestined them accordingly.

As I pointed out in my last post, you are assigning the work of God to man.

SHW:

I believe that salvation is a process; not a one-time event.

And surely it is. But the surety of salvation is what is in question. The Bible teaches it as a process: “work out your salvation with fear and trembling”. But it is also a finished work, completed on the cross, and propitiated to our wretched souls who believe on His name.

It’s extremely important to keep in mind that the Bible teaches only FAITH as the means of salvation. What I have repeatedly heard from you is that man must WORK to obtain his final salvation.

[SIGN]“And if salvation is by grace, then it is not by works: otherwise grace would not be grace. But if salvation is by works, then it is not by grace: otherwise work is no more work.” (Rom. 11:6)[/SIGN]

 

[benedictus2]

To all of you posting in this thread I would like to invite you to share your feelings and ideas on this thread that I have just started

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=4813574#post4813574

Many thanks!

 

[PEPCIS]

"PEPCIS:

God doesn’t call all to be saved, and this verse doesn’t say that He does. It says that God’s original desire was for all people to stand before him faultless,

benedictus:

If God’s ORIGINAL desire was for all people to stand before him faultess, you are saying that somewhere along the line He changed His mind.

PEPCIS:

No. I’m saying that man (collectively through Adam) fell into sin. God’s original design is to have fellowship.

benedictus:

When you say God had an original design, that means that later on He had a design that was not original.

PEPCIS:

You really aren’t that thick. No, that doesn’t mean anything of the sort. We know, for example, that God originally intended for man to stay married to his wife until one of them died. But, later, Moses began to give “bills of divorcement”. This was not God’s original design for man, but man changed the design, not God.

In the same manner, God originally designed for all men to have fellowship with their Creator, but man changed the design, not God.

This design is still in effect, which is why we read in I Timothy “Who will have all men to be saved…” He still desires this. The real question is "How many is “all?” But you aren’t ready to bear that question.

benedictus:

Which proves my above point. Man is unable to change that design that is why it is still in effect. You contradict yourself once more.

PEPCIS:

Hardly. The Bible tells us that man “changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.”

benedictus:

We cannot CHANGE the truth of God. No one change the TRUTH OF GOD because God’s TRUTH IS NOT SUBJECT TO MAN.

PEPCIS:

Romans 1:25 Wicked, unrighteous men "changed the truth of God into a lie

, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen"

Only because of a ridiculous rendering of this statemeint in YOUR Bible.

LOL You’re a peach! You tell me that words don’t matter, and now you tell me that they do? Which is it?

And where did I say that words don’t matter? Please cite post number.

There is no specific post #. The evolution of this string of posts which I have reconstructed shows how you have taken and disputed the plain meanings of words to conflate the issues and intentionally (?) confuse the debate.

It was all a bit of a stretch on your part, and created more confusion than anything else.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

I am not arguing that a saved man WILL perform good works. Do you eat sand? Do you drink engine oil? Of course not. We eat and drink what God has designed for us. We can do no other! We are forced to eat what God has designed to sustain us. For the same token, a saved man cannot help but produce good fruit. He is designed for no other thing. He may stumble from time to time, but is never sent out from the Father’s hand once in it.

[SIGN]“Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.” (Matthew 7:16-20)[/SIGN]

It doesn’t really matter if you believe in it or not. The question is, “Does the Bible teach it?” The answer is clearly, “Yes!”

As I pointed out in my last post, you are assigning the work of God to man.

And surely it is. But the surety of salvation is what is in question. The Bible teaches it as a process: “work out your salvation with fear and trembling”. But it is also a finished work, completed on the cross, and propitiated to our wretched souls who believe on His name.

It’s extremely important to keep in mind that the Bible teaches only FAITH as the means of salvation. What I have repeatedly heard from you is that man must WORK to obtain his final salvation.

[SIGN]“And if salvation is by grace, then it is not by works: otherwise grace would not be grace. But if salvation is by works, then it is not by grace: otherwise work is no more work.” (Rom. 11:6)[/SIGN]

First of all I’m not Catholic but I do beleive you can loose your salvation.I feel those who endure till the end will be saved.Didn’t the decipals say if a man be wrong in the church and you assume they must be beleivers,their in the church so go to him and if he dosen’t listen take two or three and if he still dosent listen go to the church and if he still dosen’t listen turn him over to the synagauge of satan?
Heb:2:3 Ive also beleived that works and faith go hand and hand one is no good without the other,yet both have value.Simple example. If I go to the army base to buy food and I have money,but not my pass I can’t get in. If I have my pass and no money I’m there for nothing.There are alot of thing’s in this world that conpliment the other,why have half an orange when you can have a whole one? Love of Christ Nancy

 

[benedictus2]

There is no specific post #. The evolution of this string of posts which I have reconstructed shows how you have taken and disputed the plain meanings of words to conflate the issues and intentionally (?) confuse the debate.

It was all a bit of a stretch on your part, and created more confusion than anything else.

No it was not a bit of a stretch.

If you go back to my first post in this discussion, what I took issue with was you saying that “counsel” which the KJV used was better than “purpose” or “plan” so I asked you to prove it.

And many posts laters you say:

PEPCIS:

LOL You’re a peach! You tell me that words don’t matter, and now you tell me that they do? Which is it?

To which I replied:

Quote:

benedictus2:

And where did I say that words don’t matter? Please cite post number.

To which you then replied with the above.

You are telling me that I said words don’t matter and now can’t back it up when pressed for support.

My very first post was precisely because to me words matter. That is why I took an issue with your word choice.

You’re response was therefore rather irrational.

 

[Earnest_Bunbury]

Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.** A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit,** neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." (Matthew 7:16-20)

Then no one is saved if in the protestant view, God works through us, then this passage indicates that God is not working through us if we don’t always produce good fruit. In the Catholic view of doing good through Gods grace, if we don’t “bringeth forth good fruit” we are hewn down. This puts the onus on us to accept the grace of God and through free will work with it. This makes much more sense and my years of being protestant were years of much confusion and angst as I believed but sank further into sin and suffering made no sense. Thank you JPII for your holy death, this showed me the way to our Lord and acting through grace.

“And if salvation is by grace, then it is not by works: otherwise grace would not be grace. But if salvation is by works, then it is not by grace: otherwise work is no more work.” (Rom. 11:6)

Where did this addition come from, it isn’t even in my “protester” Bible. Anyway, further on in Rom 11:8 it is written:

As it is written: God hath given them the spirit of insensibility; eyes that they should not see; and ears that they should not hear, until this present day.

This isn’t because God hates them, but by them being obstinate and not accepting the grace God available to everyone. God creates no one to be punished for eternity. God though knows everything, we don’t, we strive to enter the narrow door.

Rom 11:22 …“if thou abide in goodness, otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.”

How to abide in goodness if not by grace freely accepted and by free will used to do good works. Predestined is the purveyance of God, no one knows or can know or should know.

 

[PEPCIS]

"PEPCIS:

For sure, God does hate sin. “Oh, do not do this abominable thing that I hate!” (Jeremiah 44:4) And Proverbs list seven things that the Lord hates. (Proverbs 6:16-19) Two of those things that God hates are “a false witness who speaks lies, and one who sows discord among brethren.” Those are PEOPLE that God hates, not just the sin itself.

First off, thank you for using bigger fonts!

You’re welcome.

benedictus:

But fast forward to the New Testament. Christ died for us while we were still sinners.

“Us.” Not “everyone.” Christ died for those sinners who were predestined to live in Him.

When he died for us while we were still sinners, St Paul did not say: except for the liars and the one who sows discord among brethren”.

He didn’t need to say that, because the language he used precluded the possibility of including only or all “the liars and the one who sows discord among brethren.”

Christ died for ALL sinners.

So YOU say. The Bible does not say that. You have to force it to say that.

benedictus:

He did not die just for adulterers, or those who did not honor their father and mother. He died for all sorts of sinners. Liars and those who sow discord among brethren included.

True. But he did NOT die for the entire human race.

Let’s settle this by asking a simple question: "If ALL the sins of ALL men were laid upon Christ, how could He possibly say to certain men, “Ye shall seek Me, and shall die in your sins.” (John 8:21) ?

benedictus:

And it is precisely the graces that flow from His life, death and resurrection that enable these men to stop being liars and stop sowing discord among brethren.

Yep. But not everyone.

benedictus:

You cannot claim that God hates sinners because of a verse when the New Testament says otherwise.

The New Testament DOES NOT say otherwise.

benedictus:

If God hated sinners He would have left us to our fate and not gone to the extent of dying on the cross for us.

Well, that’s a real nice bit of human logic, but does nothing to explain what the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches that “The Lord hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all” (Isa 53:6). And we know that the “all” refers to “us”, because we are told the “us” in verse 8 of the same chapter - “For the transgression of My people was He stricken.” Again in verse 12: “And He bare the sin of MANY”, not ALL.

benedictus:

Who among us can claim not to have lied at any one time in their life?

No one.

benedictus:

So are we all now condemned because God hates sinners.

EVERYONE stands condemned. “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.” (Romans 3:23) And, “…for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.” (Romans 3:9-11)

benedictus:

If you consider yourself saved, are you now saying that you have not sinned?

“If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.” (1 John 1:10)

benedictus:

If you have sinned, then by your own statement God hates you too.

No, because I can stand before God righteous for what Christ has accomplished for me.

benedictus:

If God damns those He hates then you are damned.

But God cannot see my sins, because they have been wiped away by the blood of Christ.

benedictus:

If God hates sinners, there is no hope for salvation for any of us…

Very true. Our plight is definitely hopeless if not for the blood of Christ.

benedictus:

…because His Son would not have come to save us from sin.

But that is EXACTLY why He came.