Why is predestination wrong

[SHW]

You are doing a disservice to God’s Word by trying to say that this verse speaks of predestination. It DOESN’T. You are right to say that this verse says that the elect are chosen according to God’s foreknowledge. But that doesn’t mean that God’s foreknowledge is a result of God knowing what the future is and REACTING according to that, or if it is a result of His predetermined will.

Yet you go on to BOLDLY proclaim that this verse teaches that. You say: “Because of what He saw by His foreknowledge, He predestined some persons to heaven.”

Wrong. Paul is stating that God foreknew the elect, which is knowledge based upon His predetermined will.

I disagree with you. Are the “predestined” the same “persons” as the “elect?” Yes. So the elect, or predestined, as they are also called in Scripture, are those persons whom God, using His foreknowledge, knew would be saved at the end of their lives because He saw their whole lives before they were born and He saw their every thought, word, and action. According to (as a result of) this fore-knowledge (1 Peter 1:2) He qualifed them worthy of eternal life because He saw that they would be in the state of grace when they died and so He predestined them and** elected** them for eternal life.

Colossians 1:9-11 "For this reason we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; 10 that you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing Him, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11 strengthened with all might, according to His glorious power, for all patience and longsuffering with joy; 12 giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light.

The Father qualifies (predestines) (elects) us for eternal life as a result of His foreknowledge. We think, say, and do; He judges all of these things and He did this before He created us because He is omniscient. He judged all of us impartially, according to our works, as I have documented with Scripture in previous posts.

Elect is another word meaning predestined. It is impossible to be “predestined” to hell. A person can only be “condemned” to hell. And he is condemned to hell because of his own sins as I have also documented with Scripture in earlier posts. Predestined is only used in a positive sense/manner in Scripture.

2 Peter 1:2-11 “Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.
10** Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election** sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”

We think/believe that we are members of the elect but we can not be sure until we die. Only God knows, right now, if our election is sure.

to be continued…

 

[SHW]

Continued…

by PEPCIS Slow down there! If God predestined us to be conformed to the image of His Son, and that conformity to the image of His Son is based upon Him seeing us choosing His Son and conforming ourselves to His image, who is doing the conforming???

According to your convoluted version, we MUST conform ourselves, yet by doing so, we take God’s part away - that’d be the part where HE PREDESTINES US to be conformed to His Will. But if He predestines us to be conformed to His will, then that means that we don’t need to do anything to conform to His will, because we will do it without desiring it. But then, why do you insist that we MUST conform to be saved???

That makes no sense at all.

It is confusing! I think I figured it out:

Romans 8:28-30 “And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.”

God only “knows” those persons who are going to be saved. He does not know the persons who are going to be condemned. This is why Romans 8:29-30 states "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. If He foreknew them, (and He only knows those persons who are in the state of grace when they die) then they were also predestined to be conformed…etc. If He did not foreknow them (and He does not foreknow any person who is going to be condemned) then they were not predestined, etc.

Their own free will actions determined whether God foreknew them. God “desires all men to come to the knowledge of the truth and Jesus died as a ransom for all” but not all men use their free wills and cooperate with God’s grace in order to remain in the state of grace after their Baptisms so God no longer “knows” them when they practice lawlessness (commit sin).

"Know(s) and “foreknew” are terms that are only used in a positive manner as is the term “predestined.”

Matthew 7:22-23 “Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’”

“Christians” claim on Judgment Day that they did many things for Christ in His name and they are shocked when Jesus claims to not know them.

Jesus claims that He NEVER KNEW them because after their reconciliation with God (by faith and Baptism), they practiced lawlessness (committed sin and never repented before their deaths).

The answer to why Jesus claims that He never knew them is in Ezekiel 33:12-22 “Therefore you, O son of man, say to the children of your people: ‘The righteousness of the righteous man shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression; as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall because of it in the day that he turns from his wickedness;** nor shall the righteous be able to live because of his righteousness in the day that he sins.’ 13 When I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, but he trusts in his own righteousness and commits iniquity, none of his righteous works shall be remembered; but because of the iniquity that he has committed, he shall die**. 14 Again, when I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ if he turns from his sin and does what is lawful and right, 15 if the wicked restores the pledge, gives back what he has stolen, and walks in the statutes of life without committing iniquity, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 16 None of his sins which he has committed shall be remembered against him; he has done what is lawful and right; he shall surely live.
17 “Yet the children of your people say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ But it is their way which is not fair! 18 When the righteous turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, he shall die because of it. 19 But when the wicked turns from his wickedness and does what is lawful and right, he shall live because of it. 20 Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ O house of Israel, I will judge every one of you according to his own ways (works).”

Jesus remembers none of our good deeds if we sin (practice lawlessness). He does not even remember ever knowing us while we are in a state of mortal sin.

Once we repent and repay, He again “knows” us and our good deeds are then remembered on Judgment Day.

Blessings,
SHW

 

[Bramble]

SHW:

I disagree with you. Are the “predestined” the same “persons” as the “elect?” Yes. So the elect, or predestined, as they are also called in Scripture, are those persons whom God, using His foreknowledge, knew would be saved at the end of their lives because He saw their whole lives before they were born and He saw their every thought, word, and action. According to (as a result of) this fore-knowledge (1 Peter 1:2) He qualifed them worthy of eternal life because He saw that they would be in the state of grace when they died and so He predestined them and elected them for eternal life.

If you were correct (and you’re not) that would mean that they were saved on the basis of their works, but Scripture says salvation is by God’s merciful grace, through faith, and it’s not on the basis of works (Eph 2:8ff; Titus 3:5).

So you’re right that the elect are predestined, but wrong as to how that occurs (cf Eph 1:11).

…It is impossible to be “predestined” to hell.

God doesn’t owe anything to any of His creatures.

Had God wanted to predestine the whole human race to damnation, He not only has the right to do so, He would be right in doing so as well.

 

[SHW]

If you were correct (and you’re not) that would mean that they were saved on the basis of their works, but Scripture says salvation is by God’s merciful grace, through faith, and it’s not on the basis of works (Eph 2:8ff; Titus 3:5).

**
There are two parts to salvation.**
**
First**, we are justified by faith and reconciled to God through the free gift of grace wrought by Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross. We receive this reconciliation through faith and Baptism. (Mark 16:16, Matthew 28:19)
**
Second**, we must continue in this reconciliation with God by obeying His commandments and producing good fruit in order to inherit eternal life.

A person asked Jesus what he needed to do in order to inherit eternal life. Jesus said that if he wanted to enter into life, he had to keep the commandments. (Matthew 19:16-17)

Matthew 7:18-20 “A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire (hell). 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.”

James 2:24 “You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.”

Paul told us to “work out our salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12) There would be no need to do this if we were OSAS.

In order to continue in our reconciliation, we must obey God’s commandments and produce good fruit so that we can enter eternal life.

Acts 14:21-23 “And when they had preached the gospel to that city and made many disciples, they returned to Lystra, Iconium, and Antioch, 22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.” 23 So when they had appointed elders in every church, and prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord in whom they had believed.”

Romans 11:22-23 “Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.”

If you remain in the state of grace of your reconciliation with God, then you will remain saved. If you do not, then you will be cut off the Vine, Jesus. We are not saved if we are cut off the Vine; we are condemned to hell instead. (John 15:1-6)

Hebrews 10:26-27 “For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth (after we are saved), there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.”

If you sin grievously after your reconciliation with God which Jesus gave you as a free gift, then you forfeit your salvation.

And unless you repent before death, you will be devoured by hell.

Jesus came so that He could reconcile us to God. After our reconciliation, it is up to us to remain in this reconciliation until our deaths if we wish to inherit eternal life. He gives us the necessary graces to do this and we must use our free wills to cooperate with these graces so that we can remain “in Christ” until our deaths. Or else we can use our free wills to defile our temples with sin and be condemned; our choice.

1 Corinthians 3:16-18 “Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17** If** anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. 18 Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems to be wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise.”

We are reconciled to God through Baptism, (1 Corinthians 6:11) we are made holy (sanctified) by Baptism and we must then remain in this holiness and not sin grievous sins which cause the death of our souls. (Romans 6:16, 1 John 5:16-17) If we sin and defile our temples, then God will destroy us (condemn us.)

We are judged by our works on Judgment Day. Check Scripture and you will find this to be true. (Matthew 25:31-46, 1 Peter 1:17, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9, 2 Corinthians 5:9-11)

James 2:24 “You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.”

Salvation is a life-long process; not a one-time event.

Bramble:

So you’re right that the elect are predestined, but wrong as to how that occurs (cf Eph 1:11).

I will continue to disagree with you.

God doesn’t owe anything to any of His creatures.

True.

Had God wanted to predestine the whole human race to damnation, He not only has the right to do so, He would be right in doing so as well.

Predestine is only used in a positive manner in Scripture. You can be predestined to eternal life but you cannot be predestined to hell. You can be condemned to hell, but you cannot be predestined to hell.

Matthew 12:36-37 "But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. 37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

Our own sins condemn us.

Blessings to you,
SHW

 

[Bramble]

SHW:

There are two parts to salvation.

First, we are justified by faith and reconciled to God through the free gift of grace wrought by Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross. We receive this reconciliation through faith and Baptism. (Mark 16:16, Matthew 28:19)

Second, we must continue in this reconciliation with God by obeying His commandments and producing good fruit in order to inherit eternal life.

That’s definitely the Catholic position, grace + faith + works. No argument there, and no agreement.

SHW:

Predestine is only used in a positive manner in Scripture.

I wasn’t speaking to that. What I said is that had God desired to predestine all to hell, He certainly could have, laying your argument aside for the moment; isn’t that correct?

SHW:

Our own sins condemn us.

Indeed.

 

[benedictus2]

God doesn’t owe anything to any of His creatures.

Had God wanted to predestine the whole human race to damnation, He not only has the right to do so, He would be right in doing so as well.

And you are correct. He would have every right in doing so.

But that god will not be the God of the Bible. That god is not the God who sent His Only Begotten Son because He loved the world so much.

That god will be an evil god.

If that is the the god you have in your head, then that is really, really sad.

 

[SHW]

That’s definitely the Catholic position, grace + faith + works. No argument there, and no agreement.

My “Catholic” position is grace and faith and baptism first. Then we must “work out our own salvation in fear and trembling” which enables us to continue in our salvation and inherit eternal life. This Catholic position is also very much supported by “Scripture.”

Since you believe that OSAS is doctrine, please explain: James 2:24 “You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.”

Please explain: 1 Peter 1:16-17 "because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.” 17 And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear;

All Scripture verses are true. How do they all fit together to explain Salvation? It depends on how they are interpreted as to whether they fit together or not.

I wasn’t speaking to that. What I said is that had God desired to predestine all to hell, He certainly could have, laying your argument aside for the moment; isn’t that correct?

God can do anything He wants to as long as it is perfect because He is perfect. Since He only uses predestine in a positive manner as in “predestine for eternal life” this means that He cannot predestine to hell. It would be contrary to His perfect purpose. (Matthew 5:48) You can be condemned to hell, but not predestined to hell, according to God’s plan.

Indeed.

I’m glad we can agree on something.

Blessings,
SHW

 

[benedictus2]

That’s definitely the Catholic position, grace + faith + works. No argument there, and no agreement.

The Catholic position is the Biblical position and the true position. Whether you agree with it or not does not matter.

The point of this thread is to find out which “understanding” of predestination is correct: The Catholic or the Calvinist.

 

[benedictus2]

God can do anything He wants to as long as it is perfect because He is perfect. Since He only uses predestine in a positive manner as in “predestine for eternal life” this means that He cannot predestine to hell. It would be contrary to His perfect purpose. (Matthew 5:48) You can be condemned to hell, but not predestined to hell, according to God’s plan.

VERY WELL PUT!

 

[Bramble]

SHW:

God can do anything He wants to **as long as it is perfect **because He is perfect.

Close, but no cigar.

The truth is, because God is perfect, everything He does is perfect.

 

[SHW]

Close, but no cigar.

The truth is, because God is perfect, everything He does is perfect.

So, since God is perfect, He cannot predestine anyone to hell since He ordained that predestined only be used in a positive manner in Scripture. Persons are condemned to hell, never predestined to hell in Scripture (which is His Word as we all know).

God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth and Jesus died as a ransom for all men, yet not all men are saved.

So God allows the free will of each person to either satisfy His desire or not satisfy His desire for them to be saved, because all men are definitely not saved. Perhaps this is an example of His permissive will in action, since His desire is not fulfilled.

Original post by SHW: Since you believe that OSAS is doctrine, please explain: James 2:24 “You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.”

Please explain: 1 Peter 1:16-17 "because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.” 17 And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear;

I am still waiting.

Blessings,
SHW

 

[benedictus2]

Predestination differences in a nutshell
bringyou.to/apologetics/num21.htm

CALVINISM AND CATHOLICISM CONTRASTED
Calvin : God’s sovereignty determines the will.
Catholic : God’s sovereignty includes free will.
Calvin : Predestination as predetermination.
Catholic : Predestination as infallible foreknowledge.
Calvin : God desires only the salvation of the elect.
Catholic : God desires the salvation of all.
Calvin : God provides grace only to the elect.
Catholic : God provides grace to all, though not all accept it.
Calvin : Christ died only for the elect.
Catholic : Christ died for all men.
Calvin : God predetermines some for hell.
Catholic : Men merit hell by their own wickedness.
Calvin : The elect include all those born-again.
Catholic : The elect are those who persevere to the end.
Calvin : Grace co-opts human free will.
Catholic : Grace perfects the free will that cooperates.
Calvin : Those in grace (born-again) can’t fall away.
Catholic : Those in grace can freely sin and lose grace.
Calvin : The elect will unfailingly persevere.
Catholic : The elect are those who have persevered.
Calvin : The elect are assured of their salvation.
Catholic : Yes, but only God knows who they are.
Calvin : Predestination eliminates merit and guilt.
Catholic : Predestination includes merit and guilt.

I think the difference in the Catholic understanding of pre-destination and that of many who have posted in this thread is that the protestants equate the elect with the total sum of people saved. By going with this notion, it therefore follows that if you are not one of the elect then you are damned.

I think the Catholic position however does confirm that there are some who are pre-destined for salvation but that number is not necessarily all that will be saved.

In my musings on this subject, I came up with the analogy.

Salvation is the great battle against the prince of darkness. The elect are the generals, lieutenants and sergeants while we are the foot soldiers.

That is why Jesus said, when more is given more will be asked.

In God’s plan of salvation, it is necessary that some are better equipped so that they can edify us with lives. Be the examples of what it is truly like to follow Jesus.

That is why I think the saints who have exhibited great holiness have been especially graced. They have been
especially chosen by God for a specific purpose.

But it does not necessarily mean that the rest of us are damned.

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

First, He didn’t will for all to be saved; only the elect.

**1037 **God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”:

Father, accept this offering
from your whole family.
Grant us your peace in this life,
save us from final damnation,
and count us among those you have chosen.​

 

[benedictus2]

While the Catholic Church does affirm that there are those who have been predestined (the elect) there is no dogma on how this comes about.

The interplay between grace and free-will have been the subject of many schools of thought. The two major ones are those of St Thomas Acquinas and Luis Molina.

Here is my attempt at a summary of their differences which I posted on another thread.

First a disclaimer. There is always the possibility that I may not have completely comprehended the Molinist and Thomist views so may not be presenting it correctly and the terminologies sometimes sound gobbledegook but there is just no getting around it.

Definitions :
Efficacious (irresistible) grace is a special gif of God by which a soul incapable by its own natural resources to perform an act conducive to eternal salvation, is given supernatural powers to freely perform said act.
Prevenient grace is divine grace which precedes human decision.(wikipedia)

The issue:
The question for both the Molinist and the Thomist is how to reconcile the efficacy of grace and the infallibility of its effect with the freedom of the human because they seem to be mutually exclusive.

When does the infallible effect of efficacious grace come into effect without impairing the freedom of the will?

There is also the subtler question of when does the will under the influence of grace, move from being a mere natural faculty to actuality.

The differences:
Thomists: start from the point of efficacious grace
Molinists: proceed from a clear concept of freedom.
Thomist: maintains that God gives the grace only to those He has chosen (the elect)
Molinist: believes that God bestows the grace on everyone.
Thomist: Grace is intrinsically efficacious
Molinist: Grace extrinsically efficacious
Thomis: The will moves from potency into act by will of God
Molinist: The will freely consents to prevenient grace and this consent renders the completely sufficient grace efficacious.

My comments:
Based on the documents I’ve read (which is far from extensive), it seems to me that the Thomist position is almost similar to the Calvinist, because it posits that the will is moved to act by grace. To my thinking, if grace is efficacious such that it’s effect is infallible, the response from the will is no longer free.

I incline towards the Molinist view because to my thinking, this is more reconcilable with a God who is Love (as revealed in Scripture). If we take the Thomist view, then damnation becomes the sole act of God and not contingent at all upon man’s response to grace. Since God is the creator and has infallible foreknowledge, the Thomist view paints a God that creates man for the sole reason of damning them (as explained by invincible ignorance).

The expressed view of the Church is that God created us for himself.
Unless I have misunderstood Thomism, its thesis could only be reconciled with a loving God who made us for Himself, if we posit that though there is a Hell, it is highly unlikely that anyone will end up there since grace is efficacious and God loves everyone equally.

I think however that grace is not always efficacious but always sufficient.

My biggest problem with the subject of predestination is that God’s Infinite Love, which should be one of the premises, does not seem to have been taken into consideration at all. To my mind, this should be the first premise and the other two (grace and free will) proceed from it.

Thomism’s objection to Molinism is that the latter, due to its over-emphasis on man’s freedom of will, diminishes the supremacy of God over His Creation.

However, I personally think that this objection is without basis because it can be argued that it is still God who wills that this is the way that grace and free will should play out. God is still the one who decided to effect salvation in this manner; that in pulling us out of the ravine, He would require us to place our hands on His, even though He could quite easily have yanked us out without our cooperation.

(continue on next post) 1/2

 

[benedictus2]

While the Catholic Church does affirm that there are those who have been predestined (the elect) there is no dogma on how this comes about.

The interplay between grace and free-will have been the subject of many schools of thought. The two major ones are those of St Thomas Acquinas and Luis Molina.

Here is my attempt at a summary of their differences which I posted on another thread.

First a disclaimer. There is always the possibility that I may not have completely comprehended the Molinist and Thomist views so may not be presenting it correctly and the terminologies sometimes sound gobbledegook but there is just no getting around it.

Definitions :
Efficacious (irresistible) grace is a special gif of God by which a soul incapable by its own natural resources to perform an act conducive to eternal salvation, is given supernatural powers to freely perform said act.
Prevenient grace is divine grace which precedes human decision.(wikipedia)

The issue:
The question for both the Molinist and the Thomist is how to reconcile the efficacy of grace and the infallibility of its effect with the freedom of the human because they seem to be mutually exclusive.

When does the infallible effect of efficacious grace come into effect without impairing the freedom of the will?

There is also the subtler question of when does the will under the influence of grace, move from being a mere natural faculty to actuality.

The differences:
Thomists: start from the point of efficacious grace
Molinists: proceed from a clear concept of freedom.
Thomist: maintains that God gives the grace only to those He has chosen (the elect)
Molinist: believes that God bestows the grace on everyone.
Thomist: Grace is intrinsically efficacious
Molinist: Grace extrinsically efficacious
Thomis: The will moves from potency into act by will of God
Molinist: The will freely consents to prevenient grace and this consent renders the completely sufficient grace efficacious.

My comments:
Based on the documents I’ve read (which is far from extensive), it seems to me that the Thomist position is almost similar to the Calvinist, because it posits that the will is moved to act by grace. To my thinking, if grace is efficacious such that it’s effect is infallible, the response from the will is no longer free.

I incline towards the Molinist view because to my thinking, this is more reconcilable with a God who is Love (as revealed in Scripture). If we take the Thomist view, then damnation becomes the sole act of God and not contingent at all upon man’s response to grace. Since God is the creator and has infallible foreknowledge, the Thomist view paints a God that creates man for the sole reason of damning them (as explained by invincible ignorance).

The expressed view of the Church is that God created us for himself.
Unless I have misunderstood Thomism, its thesis could only be reconciled with a loving God who made us for Himself, if we posit that though there is a Hell, it is highly unlikely that anyone will end up there since grace is efficacious and God loves everyone equally.

I think however that grace is not always efficacious but always sufficient.

My biggest problem with the subject of predestination is that God’s Infinite Love, which should be one of the premises, does not seem to have been taken into consideration at all. To my mind, this should be the first premise and the other two (grace and free will) proceed from it.

Thomism’s objection to Molinism is that the latter, due to its over-emphasis on man’s freedom of will, diminishes the supremacy of God over His Creation.

However, I personally think that this objection is without basis because it can be argued that it is still God who wills that this is the way that grace and free will should play out. God is still the one who decided to effect salvation in this manner; that in pulling us out of the ravine, He would require us to place our hands on His, even though He could quite easily have yanked us out without our cooperation.

(continue on next post) 1/2

 

[benedictus2]

continuation of post 431

The Thomist and Molinist view I think can be reconciled if we situate the former as operative during our last moment, and the latter during our lifetime.

The way I see it, the action of grace on the will in the Molinist view can be somewhat compared to building muscles. The more you exercise a particular muscle the more you increase the muscle mass and the easier the exercise becomes.

To apply to the Molinist view, sufficient grace is given so that the will can respond with a yes, and if the response is a yes, then the infallible conclusion to goodness ensues and so it goes during our lifetime. Sufficient grace is always given to elicit a yes from us. But not being efficacious, it is therefore fallible. Our assent to grace however effects a change in the soul such that the merely sufficient grace becomes efficacious. The more we say yes to God the easier it is to say yes.
Such that at the end of our lives, saying yes is the only way we could have responded to God.

Another angle which I have looked at (but which is not totally clear in my mind as yet) is the Eternal Now.

Both the Thomist and the Molinist approach the question of pre-destination from a space time continuum and thus limited by the linearity of time. But God is in eternity which some have explained as an eternal Now. But how to incorporate this in the above is still not completely organized in my head.

As a last disclaimer though, these comments are all just my musings and I am no theologian

 

[Bramble]

SHW:

So, since God is perfect, He cannot predestine anyone to hell since He ordained that predestined only be used in a positive manner in Scripture. Persons are condemned to hell, never predestined to hell in Scripture (which is His Word as we all know).

Either you really don’t understand a word I’m saying, or you’re simply too proud to admit the truth of what I’m saying, as benedictus2 has done?

SHW:

I am still waiting.

ISTM you really wouldn’t understand my response, or if you did, you wouldn’t admit its truth.
(I feel sorry for your boyfriend, or husband, or whatever you might have. )

Have fun not listening to anyone. :tiphat:

 

[The_Smiter]

Either you really don’t understand a word I’m saying, or you’re simply too proud to admit the truth of what I’m saying, as benedictus2 has done?

ISTM you really wouldn’t understand my response, or if you did, you wouldn’t admit its truth.
(I feel sorry for your boyfriend, or husband, or whatever you might have. )

Have fun not listening to anyone. :tiphat:

This kind of post is not charitable, does not promote discussion, advance the topic, or provide understanding. It borders on an ad hominem attack, if not fully being one already.

This is the kind of stuff that gets a thread closed and should be stopped. Please edit yourself, Bramble and stick to the merits of the topic and your points.

 

[benedictus2]

Either you really don’t understand a word I’m saying, or you’re simply too proud to admit the truth of what I’m saying, as benedictus2 has done?

Or the more likely fact that it is your understanding of predestination that is deficient but because of your blinkered view you are unable to apprehend the truth of what we are saying.

 

[benedictus2]

ISTM you really wouldn’t understand my response, or if you did, you wouldn’t admit its truth.
(I feel sorry for your boyfriend, or husband, or whatever you might have. )

Have fun not listening to anyone. :tiphat:

Well said and in completely accord with the pharasaical tradition!

Oh in the meantime, can you unplug your fingers from your ears as well. That will help the discussion tremendously.

And yes. Conceit becomes you.