Perhaps you might agree that I have become mistaken because of what I am told by Catholics?
Absolutely! After reading this thread, I have no doubt.
If that were the case, then I would not be repeatedly told that we must work our way to get to heaven. Why do you suppose that is?
I think there are two reasons. Many Catholics are poorly catechized, and do not understand the Church’s teaching on grace and justification. Another is that we are using similar terms differently. Evangelicals often use the word “salvation” to refer to what Catholics call “initial justification”. For Catholics, salvation is justification, sanctification, and glorification. We do not separate them from one another as the children of the Reformers were taught to do. It is not Apostolic.
I will also add that there is a great misundersting about the role of “work” in salvation. I think evangelicals agree with Catholics that we are to “work out our salvation with fear and trembling”, but some Evangelicals mistake Catholics “working” as not based on grace, and some Catholics misunderstand the effort as “working on” instead of “working out”. Does that make sense?
I SHOWED you his statements. It’s not a matter of my perceptions, but what he has said. Apparently, your perceptions are muddled.
It is true that we perceive things differently. I cannot say that I agree with the way benedictus2 explains everything, either.
If you need to MAINTAIN your salvation, it is no different than bringing yourself salvation, since salvation is NEVER complete (according to your own testimony) UNTIL YOU ARE DEAD, and your works have been balanced out to see if you did enough good to make it into heaven.
I am sorry, but it is different. If my father buys me a new car because there is no way I can afford it, but tells me I must maintain it and insure it, how does that then enable me to obtain the car? My credit is shot, and it is impossible. It was gifted to me. Now I must preserve, hold fast, and cling to what was deposited to me. I must treat it with the very great value that it has, so that I maintain it. When it comes to eternal life, we cannot do this apart from God’s grace. Come to think of it, I can 't pay the car insurance without His grace either.
The grace to maintain is from God. It is He who upholds us, and is able to complete that which He has begun in us. We must cooperate, though, do our part.
It is not a balance sheet of good works. What matters is faith. Is a person in a state of grace, through faith. Only belieiving on the One can save us. Faith is something that belongs to people. It is we who must place our faith in him, it is we who must exercise and build up our faith. We do this by his grace, but it does not happen passivly. We must make every effort, as the Apostle teaches.
If you need to MAINTAIN your salvation, it is no different than bringing yourself salvation, since salvation is NEVER complete (according to your own testimony) UNTIL YOU ARE DEAD, and your works have been balanced out to see if you did enough good to make it into heaven.
I sure as heck did not fall off the turnip truck, and I can assure you that I know what words mean. Catholics on this forum have repeatedly assured me that if you don’t presevere until the end, then you aren’t saved. That is a works-righteousness doctrine.
No, if we do not persevere to the end, we WILL not be saved. This is what I was talking about the use of the word “salvation” meaning different things. The Apostles taught that salvation was something past, present, and future. Some parts of it are completed, some are in process, some are yet to come. We do not consider that we have attained, but we hold fast to that which has taken hold of us.
There is no such thing as “works-righteousness”. That would be a strawman. One cannot be righteous before God by works - only by grace, through faith.
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That, coupled with the fact that you can lose your salvation, is an egregious error.
I agree that it is a poor formulation. I much prefer to say it has not yet been attained, as this is the Apostolic rendering of our condition in this life. We are running the race.
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If you can lose it, that means you never had it.
I disagree. The Apostolic teaching is clear in several places that it was had, then lost.
Jesus makes this clear in the parable of the soils. 75% of the seeds sprout, then 2/3 of those do not bear fruit.
You could never have had it, because you don’t maintain your good works. It’s as simple as that.
Well, I think this is a wrong conclusion, based on a wrong premise. Saving grace produces good fruit. I think we would agree on that point. Secondly, we don’t maintain good works through the flesh, but only by the Spirit. For this reason, it is dependent upon the One who is able to keep us from stumbling, and to present us as pure. It is faith, working through love. Love is not separated from the grace that saves us.
I believe that those who have worked to receive the promise will lose it.
I believe that those who work to receive the promise will never gain it. It can only be gained by grace, through faith.
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We don't work to earn our salvation. We work because we love Him. There is a difference. Good works are a result of God working in us, not us working in God.
I am glad that we can agree on this point. I am baffled why you don’t seem to understand that this is what we are talking about when we say that
The Bible has a different account which says that all liars will have their place in the lake of fire. Sure sounds like God is punishing.
