Why is predestination wrong

[Seeking12]

Those who support the lie of men about predestinaiton answer this…One is predestined to heaven but is not told about Jesus,how can they enter heaven?

**In Romans 1:18-24, God answers that very question; that is a good question.

Unbelief and Its Consequences

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

Verse 19 is the key; God plants the knowledge of Him in everyone; it is what is done with that knowledge that saves or condemns. Election or predestination is hard to wrap our finite minds around; we have to trust the perfect attributes of God.**

 

[fbl9]

**In Romans 1:18-24, God answers that very question; that is a good question.

Verse 19 is the key; God plants the knowledge of Him in everyone; it is what is done with that knowledge that saves or condemns. Election or predestination is hard to wrap our finite minds around; we have to trust the perfect attributes of God.**

If everyone has knowledge of God planted by Him within them,then God indeed has predestined ALL to be with Him…However the choice lies with man as to where to seek God or not…thus the picture of predestination as being presented here is clearly false and thus a lie of man.

 

[fbl9]

**Come to Jesus friend. Ask Him into your heart and pray He will save you, repent of your sins before God, then follow Christ; treating Christ as Lord over your life and you will be saved!

We do not know who the “elect” are do we? Did God command us to share the gospel? Does God use human instruments to aid in reaching the lost?**

By the way i have done this unscriptural thing you speak of and (more than once) and the results led me to the conclusion i was not one of the “elect” and thus so lived my life.One more reason i am a member of His one holy, apostolic and catholic church.

 

[SHW]

**Thanks for taking your valuable time to address the questions; very thoughtful.

Occasionally someone will suggest that God’s election is based on His foreknowledge of certain events. This argument suggests that God simply looks into the future to see who will believe, and He chooses those whom He sees choosing Him. Notice that 1 Peter 1:2 says the elect are chosen “according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,” and Romans 8:29 says, “whom He foreknew, He also predestined.” And if divine foreknowledge simply means God’s knowledge of what will happen in advance, then these arguments may appear to have some weight behind them.

But that is not the biblical meaning of “foreknowledge.” When the Bible speaks of God’s foreknowledge, it refers to God’s establishment of a “love relationship” with that person. The word know, in both the Old and New Testament, refers to much more than mere cognitive knowledge of a person. Such passages as Hosea 13:4-5; Amos 3:2 (KJV); and Romans 11:2 clearly indicate this. For example, 1 Peter 1:20 says Christ was “foreknown before the foundation of the world.” Surely this means more than that God the Father looked into the future to behold Christ! It means He had an eternal, loving relationship with Him. The same is true of the elect, whom we are told God “foreknew” (Romans 8:29). That means He knew them–he loved them–before the foundation of the world.**

I see what you mean. “Foreknowledge” is only used in a positive manner as is “predestine” and “foreknew” and “know(s).” It is as you say, " a loving relationship." God “knows” no one who is not in a loving relationship with Him. I will change the wording in future posts. Thank you. I should have said that God sees everything; past, present, and future; at all times and all at the same time, because He is omniscient.

God only has foreknowledge of those persons who will inherit eternal life. He only knows those persons who will inherit eternal life. He only foreknew those persons who will inherit eternal life. This is why He predestined them to inherit eternal life.

If God’s choice of the elect is unconditional, does this rule out human responsibility? Paul asks and answers that very question in Romans 9:19-20. He says God’s choice of the elect is an act of mercy. Left to themselves, even the elect would persist in sin and be lost, because they are taken from the same fallen lump of clay as the rest of humanity. God alone is responsible for their salvation, but that does not eradicate the responsibility of those who persist in sin and are lost–because they do it willfully, and not under compulsion. They are responsible for their sin, not God.

Our own free wills determine whether we “come to Jesus or not.” Since God desires all men to be saved, then He provides the graces necessary for all men to be saved. Our own free will choices determine whether we repent or not. Our own free will choices determine whether we endure to the end and inherit the promises or not.

James 1:12 “Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.”

James 2:24 “You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.”

SHW

 

[SHW]

Continued:

Acts 10:35 “But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.”

This means we all have the same opportunity to be saved.

Romans 2:2-16 But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. 3 And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8** but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek**; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14** for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)** 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel."

God only predestined those persons who will inherit eternal life. Those persons who are not predestined receive indignation and wrath and are condemned to hell because of their own free will choices. They spurned God’s graces and chose evil instead and they did not repent before their deaths.

SHW

 

[Seeking12]

To late He has already came to me yesterday.
What would the point of teaching others be if they are already detremined by God as to be heaven bound regardless…Not one person is lost in the predestination scheme ,how can that which is already detremined by God be lost.

I’m sorry; I am not quite sure what you are asking; please restate your question(s).

 

[Seeking12]

If everyone has knowledge of God planted by Him within them,then God indeed has predestined ALL to be with Him…However the choice lies with man as to where to seek God or not…thus the picture of predestination as being presented here is clearly false and thus a lie of man.

**Friend, that is in the word of God; you either accept it or you don’t, no one can force you to as you already know.

This is also why the Bible repeatedly stresses that salvation is wholly God’s work. Consider these passages:

• In Acts 13:48 we read, “And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.”
• Acts 16:14 tells us that Lydia was saved when, “… the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.”
• Romans 8:29-30 states, “For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.”
• Ephesians 1:4-5,11 reads, “Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will … also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will.”
• Ephesians 2:8 says even our faith is a gift from God.
• In 2 Thessalonians 2:13, the apostle Paul tells his readers, “God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation.”
• 2 Timothy 1:9 informs us that God “has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity.”

The predestination versus free will is one of many paradox’s in the Bible; these are things we cannot understand because it goes against our fallen human reason. Another paradox is the Trinity; try to wrap your mind around that one. Or this one; did God chose me or did I chose Him; the answer is both. The good thing is that we accept the things we cannot fully understand by faith, trusting and knowing God is perfectly fair and perfectly just.**

 

[Seeking12]

By the way i have done this unscriptural thing you speak of and (more than once) and the results led me to the conclusion i was not one of the “elect” and thus so lived my life.One more reason i am a member of His one holy, apostolic and catholic church.

**Are you saying you have asked Jesus into your heart and He refused? God reads the heart and knows the difference of a true heart of repentance and one that in not genuine. If this describes you; then you need to examine yourself and think about the times(s) you asked and was it because you simply needed out of a bad situation or did you come realizing that you have trampled under foot the Son of God and have nothing to offer God at all?

All I can tell you is that God brought me to a point in my life where I thought I was a decent person, especially compared to others, but in reality I was a dirty rotten filthy sinner before a Holy God which I had offended in so many ways and for many years. I was totally at His mercy; for I had nothing in myself to offer God that was good. Now my life has changed to the point when I look back at my old life, it seems like a dream, rather a nightmare and I would never want to go back to that “good person” I thought I was.**

 

[Seeking12]

Continued:

Acts 10:35 “But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.”

This means we all have the same opportunity to be saved.

Romans 2:2-16 But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. 3 And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8** but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek**; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14** for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)** 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel."

God only predestined those persons who will inherit eternal life. Those persons who are not predestined receive indignation and wrath and are condemned to hell because of their own free will choices. They spurned God’s graces and chose evil instead and they did not repent before their deaths.

SHW

I believe for the most part you have it right, but I did sense that you may be suggesting one could actually loose their salvation; if so then just ask the question “can a man resist the will and purpose He has intended for each individual?” and “does the Son lose anyone which the Father has given?” Paul’s doxology in Romans 8 beginning in verse 31 till the end really drives home the point.
Here is a link to read if you like; it is beautiful!
searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=ro+8:31&t=nas&st=1&new=1&sr=1&sc=1&l=en

 

[Earnest_Bunbury]

I believe for the most part you have it right, but I did sense that you may be suggesting one could actually loose their salvation; if so then just ask the question “can a man resist the will and purpose He has intended for each individual?” and “does the Son lose anyone which the Father has given?” Paul’s doxology in Romans 8 beginning in verse 31 till the end really drives home the point.
Here is a link to read if you like; it is beautiful!

I’m sure another poster has used this verse but here it goes: Rom 11: 20-22.

20 Well: because of unbelief they were broken off. But thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear. 21 For if God hath not spared the natural branches, fear lest perhaps also he spare not thee. 22 See then the goodness and the severity of God: towards them indeed that are fallen, the severity; but towards thee, the goodness of God, if thou abide in goodness. Otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Of course, the pruning of branches producing little fruit lead to those left becoming more fruitful. The Unity of the True Vine with the branches is a sure indicator of unity of God with His Church, IMO.

As it comes to predestination, it is said in the footnote commentary of the Douay-Rheims Bible on Rom 8:29 that the elect are predestined to be conformable to the image of Christ. To think one is or another is not “predestined” is to presume to know the Mind of God.

 

[guanophore]

I’m sorry, but God’s Word is the final arbiter in this matter. It matters NOT what you think (that “my” god is cruel, or whatever), or what you feel (that “my” god is unrighteous, or wicked). All that matters is what God’s Word says.

The problem here is that the words cannot “arbitrate”. YOu are asking them to do something that is outside their ability. I agree, all that matters is what God’s word says. However, what are we told to do when we have a dispute between ourselves?

 

[PEPCIS]

"PEPCIS:

I’m sorry, but God’s Word is the final arbiter in this matter. It matters NOT what you think (that “my” god is cruel, or whatever), or what you feel (that “my” god is unrighteous, or wicked). All that matters is what God’s Word says.

The problem here is that the words cannot “arbitrate”. YOu are asking them to do something that is outside their ability. I agree, all that matters is what God’s word says. However, what are we told to do when we have a dispute between ourselves?

Actually, Christ speaks to us through His Word. So you are wrong. Christ’s wisdom is what arbitrates.

 

[Seeking12]

I’m sure another poster has used this verse but here it goes: Rom 11: 20-22.

Of course, the pruning of branches producing little fruit lead to those left becoming more fruitful. The Unity of the True Vine with the branches is a sure indicator of unity of God with His Church, IMO.

As it comes to predestination, it is said in the footnote commentary of the Douay-Rheims Bible on Rom 8:29 that the elect are predestined to be conformable to the image of Christ. To think one is or another is not “predestined” is to presume to know the Mind of God.

The Romans passage you refer shows the result of unbelief. It also compares that to the one that believed through “faith”, which is consistent with the gospel.

As far as your last sentence, you are correct.
1 Corinthians 2:16 "For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ."

Galatians 2:20 “I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the {life} which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.”

Do you think someone would know if Christ lived in them?

 

[Earnest_Bunbury]

Do you think someone would know if Christ lived in them?

It seems to me that good works in love and self sacrifice would indicate that He is living in one, but as far as saying I can sin “boldly” would seem to make Jesus have to pour out His Blood for those particular sins, one I could have prevented by accepting the grace the Catholic Church says I get through belief and sacraments; sacraments and Jesus are not separate. He gives us Himself spiritually through the signs we can see and touch. On the other hand, seeing someone not doing works of love would be indicative of them not having Jesus living in them which would, at times, would be all of us. Did He leave for a while or did mortal sin just make the Sacrament of Reconciliation necessary as sin damaged my relationship with God and the loss of His Grace. This is what seems to happen in my experience which is why I converted last year.

 

[benedictus2]

Actually, Christ speaks to us through His Word. So you are wrong. Christ’s wisdom is what arbitrates.

And the fallacy that protestants fall into all the time. Circular reasoning.

But I doubt you even know you have just done that.

 

[Seeking12]

It seems to me that good works in love and self sacrifice would indicate that He is living in one, but as far as saying I can sin “boldly” would seem to make Jesus have to pour out His Blood for those particular sins, one I could have prevented by accepting the grace the Catholic Church says I get through belief and sacraments; sacraments and Jesus are not separate. He gives us Himself spiritually through the signs we can see and touch. On the other hand, seeing someone not doing works of love would be indicative of them not having Jesus living in them which would, at times, would be all of us. Did He leave for a while or did mortal sin just make the Sacrament of Reconciliation necessary as sin damaged my relationship with God and the loss of His Grace. This is what seems to happen in my experience which is why I converted last year.

**I don’t have much to say about your personal experience, but the statement you made about the Sacraments and Jesus are inseparable is a Catholic teaching. I have not seen any indication of that in my reading and studying of the Bible.

Reconciliation with God is a daily need that all believers have. But we can go directly to God in prayer of thanksgiving and forgiveness; knowing if we confess to Him He will forgive; in fact already has.**

 

[PEPCIS]

"PEPCIS:

I’m sorry, but God’s Word is the final arbiter in this matter. It matters NOT what you think (that “my” god is cruel, or whatever), or what you feel (that “my” god is unrighteous, or wicked). All that matters is what God’s Word says.

guanophore:

The problem here is that the words cannot “arbitrate”. YOu are asking them to do something that is outside their ability. I agree, all that matters is what God’s word says. However, what are we told to do when we have a dispute between ourselves?

PEPCIS:

Actually, Christ speaks to us through His Word. So you are wrong. Christ’s wisdom is what arbitrates.

And the fallacy that protestants fall into all the time. Circular reasoning. But I doubt you even know you have just done that.

Please explain how that is circular reasoning, and then, why it is wrong.

 

[JRPV]

Predestination is wrong for two reasons, first because free will, in my opinion, is a gift with a purpose, which I can only ascribe to good works.

Second, because in practice it allows an absence of morality in this life because the next life is predestined. This became clear to me recently, as I was listening to Protestants justify predestination. Protestants claim God’s purpose cannot be effected by man – fair enough, except that pesky free-will thing (and I am sure someone here can quote scripture, which is my weakness). As I see it, hard-line conservatives get into a heap of trouble while thumping the Bible, and I constantly wondered about the word-deed discrepancy. Then I learned about Predestination, and it all came into focus - if you are predestined it matters not what you do because you have no power (good or bad, hard or soft) to effect God’s judgment. So do what you will as it has no consequence.

Predestination is wrong because free-will comes with responsability as do the teachings of Jesus.

 

[Seeking12]

Predestination is wrong for two reasons, first because free will, in my opinion, is a gift with a purpose, which I can only ascribe to good works.

Second, because in practice it allows an absence of morality in this life because the next life is predestined. This became clear to me recently, as I was listening to Protestants justify predestination. Protestants claim God’s purpose cannot be effected by man – fair enough, except that pesky free-will thing (and I am sure someone here can quote scripture, which is my weakness). As I see it, hard-line conservatives get into a heap of trouble while thumping the Bible, and I constantly wondered about the word-deed discrepancy. Then I learned about Predestination, and it all came into focus - if you are predestined it matters not what you do because you have no power (good or bad, hard or soft) to effect God’s judgment. So do what you will as it has no consequence.

Predestination is wrong because free-will comes with responsability as do the teachings of Jesus.

**As you grow in Christ you may very well reach a different conclusion. God’s will and man’s free-will are one of the great paradox’s in the Bible. Both are true, yet they appear to contradict each other, but our finite minds cannot comprehend the infinite mind of God, we trust in God by faith.

This is also why the Bible repeatedly stresses that salvation is wholly God’s work. Consider these passages:

• In Acts 13:48 we read, “And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.”
• Acts 16:14 tells us that Lydia was saved when, “… the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.”
• Romans 8:29-30 states, “For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.”
• Ephesians 1:4-5,11 reads, “Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will … also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will.”
• Ephesians 2:8 says even our faith is a gift from God.
• In 2 Thessalonians 2:13, the apostle Paul tells his readers, “God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation.”
• 2 Timothy 1:9 informs us that God “has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity.”
  **

 

[SHW]

If God did not know what each human beings final disposition would be, He would not be God. Good can come out of evil, just look at Judas. Look at a child born out of rape. Our final disposition is the result of our own free will. Jesus said if you love God you will keep His commandments. If you don’t love God… He will reunite you with your sins in hell, because that is what you desire.

God did not predestine before He foreknew, but for those whose merits He foresaw, He predestined their reward.

             JWB152

SHW