Why is predestination wrong

[SHW]

Continued:

original post by SHW: This is why it is a life-long process instead of a one-time event.

by Seeking12: You lost me here. Being justified before God is instantaneous; then the process of the separation from sin becomes the lifelong process which we never fully achieve until our glorification; that is what the Bible teaches. It is all a gift of God; praise Him!

I disagree. We are sanctified (made holy) by baptism. We then must remain in this state of sanctification until our deaths in order to be saved.

1 Corinthians 6:11 “And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.” (Acts 2:38)

This is describing baptism.

Ephesians 5:25-27 "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her,

26so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,

This “having cleansed us by the washing of water with the word” is also describing baptism. It cleanses us from our sins and this makes us disciples of Christ. Baptism removes all sins from our souls. “So that He might sanctify her” describes our continuing sanctification process.

27that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.

We must undergo a continual process of “perfecting” (sanctifying) until our deaths.

Thessalonians 3:9-10 “For what thanks can we render to God for you, for all the joy with which we rejoice for your sake before our God, 10 night and day praying exceedingly that we may see your face and perfect what is lacking in your faith?”

Hebrews 5:6-10 "As He also says in another place: “ You (Jesus) are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek”; 7 who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear, 8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, 10 called by God as High Priest “according to the order of Melchizedek,”

Romans 12:1 “I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service.”

Since Jesus who created us, (John 1:1-3) died on the cross in order to reconcile us to God, it is truly “reasonable” to expect that we must live a holy life in order to inherit eternal life with Him in heaven.

1 Peter 1:13-19” Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14 as obedient children, not conforming yourselves to the former lusts, as in your ignorance; 15 but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 16 because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.” 17 And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear; 18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.”

We imitate Jesus because He is holy and He shows us how to be holy by His own life on earth. We are judged by our works on Judgment Day.

to be continued…

 

[SHW]

Continued:

by SHW: God knows the state of our souls at our deaths right now, but we do not and can not know, until we actually die."

by Seeking12: That must be a horrible thing to feel and go through; I can’t imagine what that must feel like. My heart really goes out to you; God never intended for His children to go through life like that.

I am reasonably sure that I will be saved on Judgment Day but I am not positively sure because the devil may still devour me before I die (He wants me to lose my salvation through mortal sin) and it is possible that I could die without having time to repent if I do commit mortal sin.

Mortal sins:
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 “No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.”

Galatians 5:19-21 “Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.”

Revelation 21:8 “But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

And if, God forbid, I do any of these things, then I will go to confession just as fast as I can get there. I will also make an act of contrition immediately and beg God’s forgiveness for my sinfulness. However, I plan to keep away from near occasions of sin so that they do not become actual occasions of sin.
**
I am not distressed about my salvation because I am on guard:**

1 Peter 5:8 “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.”

I am imitating Christ and other Christians such as Paul:

Paul states: 1 Corinthians 11:1 “Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.”

Hebrews 6:11-12 “And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope until the end, 12 that you do not become sluggish, but imitate those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.”
**
I have put on the whole armor of God:**

Ephesians 6:11-13 “Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.”

**I am working out my salvation right now with fear and trembling lest I be lost: **

Philippians 2:12 "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;

1 Corinthians 9:27 “But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.”

Hebrews 3:6 “but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.”

I plan to hold fast and obey the gospel of Christ with confidence and hope for my salvation firm to the end of my life. If I do, then I will inherit eternal life. (2 Thessalonians 1:8)

2 Peter 3:15-18 “Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”

Philippians 4:13 “I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.”

SHW

 

[Seeking12]

Repentance. Returning to the God of mercy and trying to keep to the narrow path wth His Grace.

Everytime we sin we lose a mortal sin, we lose salvation because the wages of sin is death.

But if we repent we become reconciled to God.

**What this tells me is that you are “working” your way back to God. You do your part and God does His. Does the Bible teach that Jesus paid for the sins of the world or not? Was it all sins or just some? I guess I do not understand the Catholic position on this because on one side of the mouth you say no works, but on the other you have to do something to earn your way back. Makes no sense to me; so I must not understand. Seek, Ask and Knock has everything to do with finding Jesus; only from a human perspective. From God’s perspective He made His decision before time.

Before everyone jumps on me for using the term “working”; please put into the context of the message. I know you have said the Church does not teach that, but it sure appears that way.**

 

[LumberGumRubber]

Hay I’m considered about the dumbest person on this forum but even a dummy knows Jesus died for All. Free men and slave,rich men and poor,good and bad.I was taught Baptist but I don’t remember the way you explain it.So Ben, do you see why now? I’m non denominational? Nancy

A low bow of greeting right in your direction Nancy. I’ve a question for you, if you don’t mind a bit.
Would you be absolutely sure of heaven when you die and what would be the basis for that?

 

[Seeking12]

Continued:
I disagree. We are sanctified (made holy) by baptism. We then must remain in this state of sanctification until our deaths in order to be saved. So if you have to do something, then it is not wholly the work of God, right?

1 Corinthians 6:11 “And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.” (Acts 2:38)

This is describing baptism. This is not describing water baptism, this is the washing of regeneration, cleansing by the blood from all unrighteousness; not baptism of water. Every time you read the phrase “washing of”, think of Jesus blood being poured out that cleanses us.
**
Ephesians 5:25-27 "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her,
Look it is so common to use the past tense concerning justification, sanctification and glorification, like Romans 8:29 because it is that sure, as though it already happened. Will He who began a work, not complete it?
26so that He might sanctify her**, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, Washing by what? Water or Word?

This “having cleansed us by the washing of water with the word” is also describing baptism. It cleanses us from our sins and this makes us disciples of Christ. Baptism removes all sins from our souls. “So that He might sanctify her” describes our continuing sanctification process. Only God removes sin, He used Christ, not water… no amount of water can remove sin…this is not water baptism; you have been taught something or understand something that simply is not there.
We must undergo a continual process of “perfecting” (sanctifying) until our deaths. Sanctification is lifelong; is the pattern of your life to sin less and less?

Hebrews 5:6-10 "As He also says in another place: “ You (Jesus) are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek”; 7 who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear, 8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, 10 called by God as High Priest “according to the order of Melchizedek,”This tells you Christ is the way and a life of obedience is the result of your election.

Romans 12:1 “I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service.”

Since Jesus who created us, (John 1:1-3) died on the cross in order to reconcile us to God, it is truly “reasonable” to expect that we must live a holy life in order to inherit eternal life with Him in heaven.

1 Peter 1:13-19” Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14 as obedient children, not conforming yourselves to the former lusts, as in your ignorance; 15 but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 16 because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.” 17 And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear; 18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.”

We imitate Jesus because He is holy and He shows us how to be holy by His own life on earth. We are judged by our works on Judgment Day.
Romans 8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.The believers judgment is for rewards, the Bema seat; it is the great white throne judgment one who does not have Christ has to fear.
to be continued…

 

[Seeking12]

Continued:
I am reasonably sure that I will be saved on Judgment Day but I am not positively sure because the devil may still devour me before I die (He wants me to lose my salvation through mortal sin) and it is possible that I could die without having time to repent if I do commit mortal sin.

Galatians 5:19-21 “Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.”

Revelation 21:8 “But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

And if, God forbid, I do any of these things, then I will go to confession just as fast as I can get there. I will also make an act of contrition immediately and beg God’s forgiveness for my sinfulness. However, I plan to keep away from near occasions of sin so that they do not become actual occasions of sin.
**
I am not distressed about my salvation because I am on guard:**

1 Peter 5:8 “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.”

I am imitating Christ and other Christians such as Paul:

Paul states: 1 Corinthians 11:1 “Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.”

Hebrews 6:11-12 “And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope until the end, 12 that you do not become sluggish, but imitate those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.”
**
I have put on the whole armor of God:**

Ephesians 6:11-13 “Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.”

**I am working out my salvation right now with fear and trembling lest I be lost: **

Philippians 2:12 "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;

1 Corinthians 9:27 “But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.”

Hebrews 3:6 “but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.”

I plan to hold fast and obey the gospel of Christ with confidence and hope for my salvation firm to the end of my life. If I do, then I will inherit eternal life. (2 Thessalonians 1:8)

2 Peter 3:15-18 “Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”

Philippians 4:13 “I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.”
**
Do you think Paul or Peter knew they would be in Heaven? Why? Why was 1 John written?

This Is Written That You May Know

13 These things I have written **to you who believe ****in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14 This is the confidence which we have before Him, that, if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15 And if we know that He hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests which we have asked from Him.

As I said before; God doesn’t keep us guessing, that is from the devil. But with that said, you may have good reason for doubts; I reccommend two things 1) a real heart examination to see if you are int he faith and 2) be like those Bereans and see if what you are taught is in accord with God.

I really feel bad for all of those that do not have the confidence that John spoke of; in some ways it really breaks my heart because I know if you are saved, you will not be second guessing except those times when you willfully sin for a period of time and step out of the blessing of assurance. I use to experience that, but what I know is that is you are walking the walk and livng in God’s will; you will be blessed with confidence and assurance.

SHW

 

[ncgolf]

Oh my, that must be hard to think you might loose salvation.

Actually it is not … why would it be hard? God has equipped us for this … there is grace.

Do you constantly wonder?

No … I do not … but I know what sin does … and can do … worries like that drive us inward … John Paul II said, “Do not be afraid.” Again from Catholic theology grace is abudantly available through the sacraments. If you do not believe in the Catholic sacraments and what they do then I could see how one could be worried.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, possibly another thread, there are many people that have made that profession, but as James has shown, faith without works is dead. Anyone that has been regenerated; not only knows, but the witnesses to that regeneration will be by those closest to that person…a conversion does not go unnoticed.

This is a very Catholic thing to say.

I disagree, a gift from God is the greatest of personal gains. Paul said to die is gain; why? I do agree we are to proclaim the good news, which can be done in many ways, but the most predominate should be your life.

Whoever looks to save their life will lose it and whoever loses their life will save it. Christianity is not a gaining religion it is a giving religion. There should be no thought of personal gain in the Christian life … gifts are never given strictly for one’s gain … though one may benefit from the gift.

 

[SHW]

Originally Posted by SHW: We are sanctified (made holy) by baptism. We then must remain in this state of sanctification until our deaths in order to be saved.

Originally Posted by Seeking12:So if you have to do something, then it is not wholly the work of God, right?

Correct.

God does not force us to believe so that we have to accept His free gift of grace of reconciliation with Him, does He?

Since we also have the responsibility to believe in order to receive the free gift of grace, then it is not wholly the work of God, right?

SHW

 

[SHW]

Original post by Seeking12: I really feel bad for all of those that do not have the confidence that John spoke of; in some ways it really breaks my heart because I know if you are saved, you will not be second guessing except those times when you willfully sin for a period of time and step out of the blessing of assurance. I use to experience that, but what I know is that is you are walking the walk and livng in God’s will; you will be blessed with confidence and assurance.

Please explain the blessing of your confidence and assurance in salvation, that you believe in, by using the following Scripture passage. Please explain how a person remains saved after just one transgression:

Ezekiel 33:12-20 "Therefore you, O son of man, say to the children of your people:

‘The righteousness of the righteous man shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression; as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall because of it in the day that he turns from his wickedness; nor shall the righteous be able to live (eternal life) because of his righteousness in the day that he sins.’ 13 When I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, but he trusts in his own righteousness and commits iniquity, none of his righteous works shall be remembered; but because of the iniquity that he has committed, he shall die (be damned).

14 Again, when I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ if he turns from his sin and does what is lawful and right, 15 if the wicked restores the pledge, gives back what he has stolen, and walks in the statutes of life without committing iniquity, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 16 None of his sins which he has committed shall be remembered against him; he has done what is lawful and right; he shall surely live.

17 “Yet the children of your people say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ But it is their way which is not fair!

18 When the righteous turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, he shall die because of it. 19 But when the wicked turns from his wickedness and does what is lawful and right, he shall live because of it.

20 Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ O house of Israel, I will judge every one of you according to his own ways.”

Thank you,
SHW

 

[SHW]

Romans 8:1 "Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

The key to understanding Romans 8:1 is “for those who are in Christ Jesus.”
**
Please explain what “in Christ Jesus” means.**

Original post by Seeking12: The believers judgment is for rewards, the Bema seat; it is the great white throne judgment one who does not have Christ has to fear.

How do you come up with this idea? We are all judged at the same time when He separates the sheep from the goats. There is only one judgment and Jesus is sitting on His white throne while He judges us. These Scripture passages are describing the same judgment in slightly different ways just as the gospels differ slightly in telling the same stories.

Thank you,
SHW

 

[SHW]

Originally posted by Seeking12:you will not be second guessing except those times when you willfully sin for a period of time and step out of the blessing of assurance. I use to experience that,

So, if you step out of the “blessing of assurance” when you willfully sin “for a period of time,” then you believe that you are no longer saved?

Hebrews 10:26-31 "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

How many mortal sins does it take for us to lose our salvation?
How many sins did Adam commit before he brought death and loss of eternal life for all of us?

SHW

 

[SHW]

Original post by SHW: 1 Corinthians 6:11 “And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.” (Acts 2:38)

This is describing baptism.

Original post by Seeking12: This is not describing water baptism, this is the washing of regeneration, cleansing by the blood from all unrighteousness; not baptism of water. Every time you read the phrase “washing of”, think of Jesus blood being poured out that cleanses us.

I have moved this to a new thread called: The Necessity of Baptism

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=4829467#post4829467

SHW

 

[SHW]

by Seeking12: Do you think Paul or Peter knew they would be in Heaven? Why? Why was 1 John written?

This Is Written That You May Know

13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14 This is the confidence which we have before Him, that, if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15 And if we know that He hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests which we have asked from Him.

As I said before; God doesn’t keep us guessing, that is from the devil. But with that said, you may have good reason for doubts; I reccommend two things 1) a real heart examination to see if you are int he faith and 2) be like those Bereans and see if what you are taught is in accord with God.

I have moved this to a new thread called: What must a person do in order to actually believe in God?

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=4829571#post4829571

 

[Seeking12]

Actually it is not … why would it be hard? God has equipped us for this … there is grace. No … I do not … but I know what sin does … and can do … worries like that drive us inward … John Paul II said, “Do not be afraid.” Again from Catholic theology grace is abudantly available through the sacraments. If you do not believe in the Catholic sacraments and what they do then I could see how one could be worried. This is a very Catholic thing to say.
**Must be a Catholic thing; I have never heard of such a thing or read such a thing as sacraments as a way to dispense God’s grace in the Bible; I know it is God who directly “dispenses” His saving grace upon whom He chooses. This is some strange gospel you are taught; I’m not knocking anything just stating an observation…it’s really quite mind boggling. In the end God will do the sorting on an individual basis.
**
Whoever looks to save their life will lose it and whoever loses their life will save it. Christianity is not a gaining religion it is a giving religion. There should be no thought of personal gain in the Christian life … gifts are never given strictly for one’s gain … though one may benefit from the gift.

That would be one person’s opinion; I agree and feel as Paul "For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain."

 

[Seeking12]

Correct.

God does not force us to believe so that we have to accept His free gift of grace of reconciliation with Him, does He?

Since we also have the responsibility to believe in order to receive the free gift of grace, then it is not wholly the work of God, right?

SHW

If you must do something, then aren’t you working at it by default?

 

[Seeking12]

Please explain the blessing of your confidence and assurance in salvation, that you believe in, by using the following Scripture passage. Please explain how a person remains saved after just one transgression:

Ezekiel 33:12-20 "Therefore you, O son of man, say to the children of your people:

‘The righteousness of the righteous man shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression; as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall because of it in the day that he turns from his wickedness; nor shall the righteous be able to live (eternal life) because of his righteousness in the day that he sins.’ 13 When I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, but he trusts in his own righteousness and commits iniquity, none of his righteous works shall be remembered; but because of the iniquity that he has committed, he shall die (be damned).
This is speaking of an unbelieving heart, not a righteous heart, this is what God is saying here. These are the same self righteous people we see today that honor God with their lips, but their hearts are far from Him.
14 Again, when I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ if he turns from his sin and does what is lawful and right, 15 if the wicked restores the pledge, gives back what he has stolen, and walks in the statutes of life without committing iniquity, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 16 None of his sins which he has committed shall be remembered against him; he has done what is lawful and right; he shall surely live.

17 “Yet the children of your people say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ But it is their way which is not fair!

18 When the righteous turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, he shall die because of it. 19 But when the wicked turns from his wickedness and does what is lawful and right, he shall live because of it.

20 Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ O house of Israel, I will judge every one of you according to his own ways.”
This is also speaking of people under the law, we are under grace, the law was given to show man his iniquity before God. God does not change the way people are saved; it has always been God’s grace. this is another reason why baptism of water does not save; does God change?

Thank you,
SHW

 

[Seeking12]

Correct.

God does not force us to believe so that we have to accept His free gift of grace of reconciliation with Him, does He?

Since we also have the responsibility to believe in order to receive the free gift of grace, then it is not wholly the work of God, right?

SHW

The faith to believe and come to God in the first place is also a gift of God.

 

[ncgolf]

Must be a Catholic thing; I have never heard of such a thing or read such a thing as sacraments as a way to dispense God’s grace in the Bible; I know it is God who directly “dispenses” His saving grace upon whom He chooses. This is some strange gospel you are taught; I’m not knocking anything just stating an observation…it’s really quite mind boggling. In the end God will do the sorting on an individual basis.

It’s not Catholic thing it’s a Bible thing … the Bible is a Catholic book so it should make sense … I am surprised that one who reads the Bible … cannot see these things.

I am still shocked that so many who profess Bible only cannot see these things.

I will do one …The Sacrament of the Anointing of the Sick …
James 5:13-15 Anointing of the Sick
“13 Is anyone among you suffering? He should pray. Is anyone in good spirits? He should sing praise. 14 Is anyone of you among sick? He should summon the prebysters of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint[him] with oil in the name of the Lord, 15 and the prayer of faith will save the sick person, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven.”

Now … we have a sacrament called Anointing of the Sick … it comes from the Bible … we do as the Apostles did. This is Tradition … we follow exactly what the Apostles did … read it. They do this in the name of the Lord … it is Jesus doing the ministering through the prebysters of the Church.

So I ask how you never heard of this … it would be foreign if you do not believe and think and are taught as the Apostles did. We anoint with oil just as James describes … and the person may be saved physically but more importantly they are saved spiritually due to the complete forgiveness of sins.

How can you say grace is not dispensed in this manner … it is a treasure chest of grace and sadly many do not even know it exists … there is no charge, it is free and available … yet still many do not believe.

 

[SHW]

If you must do something, then aren’t you working at it by default?

Since we must receive His free gift in some manner in order to be saved, aren’t we doing something? He is not forcing His gift on us. If He was, then everyone would be saved automatically whether they wanted to be saved or not. Yet we know that not everyone is saved.

So, then are you implying that it is really not wholly God’s responsibility for us to receive His free gift of grace?

Originally posted by Seeking12: The faith to believe and come to God in the first place is also a gift of God.

Don’t we have to accept His free gift of faith? If we do accept it, haven’t we ourselves done something? Accepting something as a gift is doing something.

Since His desire is for all men to be saved, doesn’t He then make it possible for all men to be saved?

He has to make His own desires possible or else He is not God because He cannot contradict Himself.

So our own free will choices (actions) determine whether we accept His free gift of faith and grace. Correct?

SHW

 

[fbl9]

That would be one person’s opinion; I agree and feel as Paul "For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain."

Where did you get this “quote” from?

Seeking 12"Must be a catholic thing:i have not heard or read such a thing as sacrements as a way to dispense God’s grace in the bible…I know it is God who directly dispenses His saving grace upon whom He chooses,This is some strange gospel youy are taught.Not knocking anything just an observation…it’s rally quite mind boggling…In the end God will do the sorting on an indvidual basis."
Just an observation on my part you really have not a clue as to what is being said to you.First you try to tell us that God picked you to be saved yet at the same time say that all men have a desire to seek God planted in them and if they don’t seek God they are condemned bc they did not seek yet only God will pick who He will let find Him.
One approaches God with a sincre heart yet God will spurn this person bc God didn’t pick this person.
Have you not yet to understand what St.John wrote at the end of his account of the gospel of Jesus? from the gospel according to St.John21:25"There are many other things Jesus did: but if everyone of these should be written,not even the world itself ,i think, could hold the books that would have to be written."

Just what sorting does God have to do onn an individual basis???
i beleive thus i am saved yet i still need to be sorted?i ask this question from your point of view as presented here.