Why is predestination wrong

[Seeking12]

The key to understanding Romans 8:1 is “for those who are in Christ Jesus.”
**
Please explain what “in** Christ Jesus” means.
That is a very tough question to put into human words; so I pray God will help me here. I think it is best explained by ones life and by that life one’s actions toward Jesus and neighbors. Luke 10:27 Jesus gave two commandments; (paraphrasing) love God with all of your heart, mind and soul and your neighbor as yourself. The key is obedience to His word. Pray without ceasing, help those in need, visit the sick, the widows, those in prison. Have a savants heart toward your neighbor, which is anyone that God puts in your path. Be diligent in studying His word and sharing when the opportunity comes…etc etc. If you do these things you are in Christ and He is in you.

How do you come up with this idea? We are all judged at the same time when He separates the sheep from the goats. There is only one judgment and Jesus is sitting on His white throne while He judges us. These Scripture passages are describing the same judgment in slightly different ways just as the gospels differ slightly in telling the same stories.

**You are really putting me work; that’s a good thing.
2 Corinthians 5:6-10 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord-- 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight-- 8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. 9 Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Please click this link and look at the Greek terms used for judgment, which is Bema (AKA: Judgment seat of Christ) and the word “recompensed”, this is the receiving of rewards for believers. Our deeds will be “burned” away and those deeds that stand on the foundation “Petra” after the burning will be rewarded.
searchgodsword.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=2co+5:10&translation=nas&ot=bhs&nt=na&sr=1&l=en**

Romans 14:14 speaks of the same.

The judgment you don’t want to be at is the “Great White Throne”,
Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. (these are the damned, very scary!
Thank you,
SHW

 

[Seeking12]

So, if you step out of the “blessing of assurance” when you willfully sin “for a period of time,” then you believe that you are no longer saved?

Hebrews 10:26-31 "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

How many mortal sins does it take for us to lose our salvation?
How many sins did Adam commit before he brought death and loss of eternal life for all of us?

SHW

I would describe it as second guessing yourself, but as you mature in the faith and have been obedient and walking according to God’s will; the frequency of “second guessing” diminishes. I have not had that feeling in a year or two. If I know I am walking on the wrong path, God is quick to remind me through my conscience and if that doesn’t work, which most of the time it does, then I will pray for chastening and He will oblige that prayer.

 

[Seeking12]

Where did you get this “quote” from?

Philippians 1:21

Just an observation on my part you really have not a clue as to what is being said to you.First you try to tell us that God picked you to be saved **[That is implicit, but not explicit]**yet at the same time say that all men have a desire to seek God planted **[No; Paul said in Romans that which is to be known or observed is planted by God - no excuse for anyone]**in them and if they don’t seek God they are condemned bc they did not seek yet only God will pick who He will let find Him.
One approaches God with a sincre heart yet God will spurn this person bc God didn’t pick this person. [God’s promise is that those who come to Him He will not cast out. So this could be a heart matter; you’ll have to take that up with Him; I can only reiterate the promise]
Have you not yet to understand what St.John wrote at the end of his account of the gospel of Jesus? from the gospel according to St.John21:25"There are many other things Jesus did: but if everyone of these should be written,not even the world itself ,i think, could hold the books that would have to be written."
Not following you on exactly what you are asking here.

Just what sorting does God have to do onn an individual basis???
i beleive thus i am saved yet i still need to be sorted?i ask this question from your point of view as presented here.

The sorting is the goats from the sheep, the wheat from the tares, the believers from the unbelievers.

 

[SHW]

Originally Posted by SHW
Please explain the blessing of your confidence and assurance in salvation, that you believe in, by using the following Scripture passage. Please explain how a person remains saved after just one transgression:

Ezekiel 33:12-20 "Therefore you, O son of man, say to the children of your people:

‘The righteousness of the righteous man shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression; as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall because of it in the day that he turns from his wickedness;** nor shall the righteous be able to live (eternal life) because of his righteousness in the day that he sins**.’ 13 When I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, but he trusts in his own righteousness and commits iniquity, none of his righteous works shall be remembered; but because of the iniquity that he has committed, he shall die (be damned).

Originally posted by Seeking12: This is speaking of an unbelieving heart, not a righteous heart, this is what God is saying here. These are the same self righteous people we see today that honor God with their lips, but their hearts are far from Him.

I disagree. God is speaking of a “righteous” person who transgresses, not a “self-righteous” person who transgresses. A righteous person in God’s eyes is definitely not a self-righteous person. God states that the righteous person loses eternal life (dies) on the day that he transgresses (sins). God states that on the day that the righteous person transgresses, that his righteous works done while he was righteous are no longer remembered.

Originally posted by Seeking12: This is also speaking of people under the law, we are under grace, the law was given to show man his iniquity before God. God does not change the way people are saved; it has always been God’s grace. this is another reason why baptism of water does not save; does God change?

I am “under grace” only when I am imitating Christ and I and God are abiding in one another. (God can not and does not abide in a sinful defiled temple/soul.)

We place ourselves under the law when we break God’s commandments and we are then judged by the law.

James 2:8-11 “If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well; 9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy.”

We are judged by the law of liberty (grace) if we are obeying God’s commandments because we are living a righteous life.

If we break God’s commandments, then we are transgressors of the law, and we will be judged as transgressors of the law and we are therefore no longer righteous.

So, Ezekiel is stating that when a righteous man transgresses (sins), then he is no longer righteous. His righteous acts that he did while he was righteous are also no longer remembered.

This is why when many persons who are expecting eternal life, claim on Judgment Day that they did many things in His name, Jesus will say to them:

“Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’” Matthew 7:22-23

No good acts are remembered by God when we are in a state of mortal sin.

It takes just one mortal sin to lose eternal life. Adam found this to be true and he is the example for all of us. Adam made all of us enemies of God. (Romans 5) Jesus made our reconciliation with God possible, but He did not guarantee our salvation.

Our free will choices determine whether we are saved or not on Judgment Day because we are judged according to our works.

Revelation 20:12-13 “And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.” See also Matthew 25:31-46

2 Corinthians 5:9-11 "Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 11 Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men;"

2 Thessalonians 1:8 “in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Romans 8:13 "For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live."

SHW

 

[SHW]

I would describe it as second guessing yourself, but as you mature in the faith and have been obedient and walking according to God’s will; the frequency of “second guessing” diminishes. I have not had that feeling in a year or two. If I know I am walking on the wrong path, God is quick to remind me through my conscience and if that doesn’t work, which most of the time it does, then I will pray for chastening and He will oblige that prayer.

The Christian life is not about “feelings” or “emotions.” It is about “obedience” to the gospel of Christ. I do agree that God can speak to us via our consciences but so can the devil.

Acts 5:3 “But Peter said, “Ananias,** why has Satan filled your heart** to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself?”

2 Corinthians 11:13-15 “For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.”

2 Thessalonians 1:8 “in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

I know many persons who call themselves “Christians” who are not obeying the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ; therefore, flames of fire will be taking vengeance on them when they die; regardless of their own “feelings” of eternal security.

SHW

 

[fbl9]

Philippians 1:21

i was thinking it came from St.Paul’s epistle to the Galatians.that’s why it sounded off to me.2:20"it is no longer i who live but Christ who lives in me…"What St.Paul was getting at in your quote from his epislte to the Philppians was he would rather die to go to be with Christ,then stay here teaching for Christ.Any one who is in a state of grace can say that,but when one is in unrepented sin one cannot say the same as St.Paul.
How can one who God does not give grace to, be expected to live as if they had been filled with grace and yet still be condemend…
This is your teaching so explain it don’t hide behind “if you don’t like it ask God”

 

[Seeking12]

I disagree. God is speaking of a “righteous” person who transgresses, not a “self-righteous” person who transgresses. A righteous person in God’s eyes is definitely not a self-righteous person. God states that the righteous person loses eternal life (dies) on the day that he transgresses (sins). God states that on the day that the righteous person transgresses, that his righteous works done while he was righteous are no longer remembered.
God is mocking the “self righteous”. All sins or trangressions were covered before God through the cross; all sins past, present and future.
I am “under grace” only when I am imitating Christ and I and God are abiding in one another. (God can not and does not abide in a sinful defiled temple/soul.) ** If you are under saving grace; you will never be without saving grace. You may step out of His blessings, but if you are a child of God, you won’t stay that way.**

We place ourselves under the law when we break God’s commandments and we are then judged by the law. If you place yourself under the law, then you are going to be damned because God said in Galatians 2:16 "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified."

James 2:8-11 "If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well; 9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy."We are judged by the law of liberty (grace) if we are obeying God’s commandments because we are living a righteous life.

If we break God’s commandments, then we are transgressors of the law, and we will be judged as transgressors of the law and we are therefore no longer righteous.
Paul is referring to those people that believed they could keep the law; further more he is showing that you cannot keep the law, so give it up…you can’t do it.

So, Ezekiel is stating that when a righteous man transgresses (sins), then he is no longer righteous. His righteous acts that he did while he was righteous are also no longer remembered.

This is why when many persons who are expecting eternal life, claim on Judgment Day that they did many things in His name, Jesus will say to them:

“Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’” Matthew 7:22-23
These people are very self deceived, the same people on the broad road…all the religious people who think because of their religious affiliation or because they profess Jesus are heading for heaven…their problem is they haven’t come to the Fountain of life, the Bread of life; Jesus Christ.

No good acts are remembered by God when we are in a state of mortal sin.

It takes just one mortal sin to lose eternal life. Adam found this to be true and he is the example for all of us. Adam made all of us enemies of God. (Romans 5) Jesus made our reconciliation with God possible, but He did not guarantee our salvation.

Our free will choices determine whether we are saved or not on Judgment Day because we are judged according to our works.
2 Thessalonians 1:8

“in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Romans 8:13 "For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live."
SHW

I can only assume you have been taught that you can loose your salvation, saving grace is dispensed, you must cooperate with God (which in a sense you do, but in the sense I have seen here); all of this I cannot find in my study and understanding of God and of His word. I don’t even know what to say or think about all of this’ it is a lot to digest.

 

[fbl9]

I can only assume you have been taught that you can loose your salvation, saving grace is dispensed, you must cooperate with God (which in a sense you do, but in the sense I have seen here); all of this I cannot find in my study and understanding of God and of His word. I don’t even know what to say or think about all of this’ it is a lot to digest.

Seeking 12"Paul is refering to those people that beleived they could keep the law: further more he is showing that you cannot keeep the law,so give it up… you can’t do it"
What is sin?it is a transgression of the LAW… so give it up live in sin…what kind of advice is that?
Seeeking 12"if you are under saving grace you will never be without saving grace.You may step out of His blessings,but if you are a child of God you will not stay that way"
So now you are telling us that one can live in sin yet still be saved.only that one is not being blessed by God.
It was only after i ingested the misleading words of man that i gave up and lived a life of sin…even with the Holy Spirit prompting me to repentence,i beleieved i was PREDESTINED not to be saved.it’s your teaching not God’s…

 

[Seeking12]

i was thinking it came from St.Paul’s epistle to the Galatians.that’s why it sounded off to me.2:20"it is no longer i who live but Christ who lives in me…"What St.Paul was getting at in your quote from his epislte to the Philppians was he would rather die to go to be with Christ,then stay here teaching for Christ.Any one who is in a state of grace can say that,but when one is in unrepented sin one cannot say the same as St.Paul.
How can one who God does not give grace to, be expected to live as if they had been filled with grace and yet still be condemend…
This is your teaching so explain it don’t hide behind “if you don’t like it ask God”

**This is the second time you have taken me out of context by putting words in my mouth; please try not to do that. I don’t believe it is intentional, but it does make responding more difficult. Thanks.

To answer the question above; if you don’t have saving grace; you don’t have God and remain under His wrath. It is not my teaching; I get this from the word of God. **

 

[SHW]

We are all judged at the same time when He separates the sheep from the goats. There is only one judgment and Jesus is sitting on His white throne while He judges us. These Scripture passages are describing the same judgment in slightly different ways just as the gospels differ slightly in telling the same stories.

You are really putting me work; that’s a good thing.
2 Corinthians 5:6-10 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord-- 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight-- 8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. 9 Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Please click this link and look at the Greek terms used for judgment, which is Bema (AKA: Judgment seat of Christ) and the word “recompensed”, this is the receiving of rewards for believers. Our deeds will be “burned” away and those deeds that stand on the foundation “Petra” after the burning will be rewarded.
searchgodsword.org/isb/bi… =na&sr=1&l=en

Romans 14:14 speaks of the same.

The judgment you don’t want to be at is the “Great White Throne”,
Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. (these are the damned, very scary!

I disagree with you and the “paper” you linked. There is only one General Judgment and it is when all of us are gathered together, both righteous and unrighteous, before the great white throne. Jesus divides the sheep and the goats while He is on His great white throne. Matthew 25:31-46 He rewards those who are righteous (sheep) with eternal life, and He condemns those (goats) who practice lawlessness (sin) and they are sent to hell.

Revelation 20:11-15 “Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.”

This passage is stressing the point that every single person who ever lived is at this ONE Judgment by saying that “the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them.”

The old imperfect heavens and earth are burned up by fire and then remade perfect for the righteous. The “dead” are all there, whether righteous or unrighteous. This is not a judgment for the unrighteous alone; it is the Judgment for the sheep and the goats. We are all there at this one General Judgment.

2 Peter 3:7-18"But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11** Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness**, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. 14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless;… Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen. "

We are judged “according to our works” and we receive either salvation or damnation as a result of our works. This has nothing to do with our “crowns” or any other reward after we enter eternal life. First we have to have our names in the Book of Life at the ONE Judgment before the great white throne in order to inherit eternal life.

Peter is warning us to “be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless” on this great white throne day.

SHW

 

[SHW]

God is mocking the “self righteous”. All sins or trangressions were covered before God through the cross; all sins past, present and future.

Galatians 6:7 “Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap.”

God does not “mock.” That would be ungodly and impossible for a person with Divine nature.

Originally by Seeking12

It is confusing. I will pray for you.

I have the Church to teach me and guide me and keep me from error. Jesus gave His one Church His authority to teach. He founded it upon Peter, the rock. He promised to be with it until He returns to gather up His kingdom. He sent the Holy Spirit to guide it to keep it from teaching error. He told the Apostles to make disciples of all nations by baptizing them. I have Scripture verses to back up these claims.

Peace,
SHW

 

[Seeking12]

I disagree with you and the “paper” you linked. There is only one General Judgment and it is when all of us are gathered together, both righteous and unrighteous, before the great white throne. Jesus divides the sheep and the goats while He is on His great white throne. Matthew 25:31-46 He rewards those who are righteous (sheep) with eternal life, and He condemns those (goats) who practice lawlessness (sin) and they are sent to hell.

Revelation 20:11-15 “Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.”

This passage is stressing the point that every single person who ever lived is at this ONE Judgment by saying that “the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them.”

The old imperfect heavens and earth are burned up by fire and then remade perfect for the righteous. The “dead” are all there, whether righteous or unrighteous. This is not a judgment for the unrighteous alone; it is the Judgment for the sheep and the goats. We are all there at this one General Judgment.

2 Peter 3:7-18"But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11** Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness**, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. 14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless;… Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen. "

We are judged “according to our works” and we receive either salvation or damnation as a result of our works. This has nothing to do with our “crowns” or any other reward after we enter eternal life. First we have to have our names in the Book of Life at the ONE Judgment before the great white throne in order to inherit eternal life.

Peter is warning us to “be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless” on this great white throne day.

SHW

I believe if you ask around a little bit; you will get a confirmation on that there is a judgment for the wicked and another of rewards for the righteous. I’m not going to belabor this one; you will have to discover on your own.

 

[Seeking12]

The Christian life is not about “feelings” or “emotions.” It is about “obedience” to the gospel of Christ. I do agree that God can speak to us via our consciences but so can the devil.

Acts 5:3 “But Peter said, “Ananias,** why has Satan filled your heart** to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself?”

2 Corinthians 11:13-15 “For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.”

2 Thessalonians 1:8 “in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

I know many persons who call themselves “Christians” who are not obeying the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ; therefore, flames of fire will be taking vengeance on them when they die; regardless of their own “feelings” of eternal security. I agree.

SHW

I can’t imagine why you are attacking the “feeling”; I guess you have never “felt” like you sinned against God or “felt” like you shouldn’t have done this or that because it may have offended God. The context was not in the Christian life was it? Was it in the context of the question concerning loosing the blessing of assurance?

 

[Seeking12]

I disagree with you and the “paper” you linked. There is only one General Judgment and it is when all of us are gathered together, both righteous and unrighteous, before the great white throne. Jesus divides the sheep and the goats while He is on His great white throne. Matthew 25:31-46 He rewards those who are righteous (sheep) with eternal life, and He condemns those (goats) who practice lawlessness (sin) and they are sent to hell.

Revelation 20:11-15 “Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.”

This passage is stressing the point that every single person who ever lived is at this ONE Judgment by saying that “the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them.”

The old imperfect heavens and earth are burned up by fire and then remade perfect for the righteous. The “dead” are all there, whether righteous or unrighteous. This is not a judgment for the unrighteous alone; it is the Judgment for the sheep and the goats. We are all there at this one General Judgment.

2 Peter 3:7-18"But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11** Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness**, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. 14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless;… Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen. "

We are judged “according to our works” and we receive either salvation or damnation as a result of our works. This has nothing to do with our “crowns” or any other reward after we enter eternal life. First we have to have our names in the Book of Life at the ONE Judgment before the great white throne in order to inherit eternal life.

Peter is warning us to “be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless” on this great white throne day.

SHW

The link you called a paper is the word of God. Just an FYI.

 

[Seeking12]

Galatians 6:7 “Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap.”

God does not “mock.” That would be ungodly and impossible for a person with Divine nature.
The verse says God will not be mocked, not as you said above.
Works of the Law (of Moses) are different than righteous works. And no flesh can be justified by works of the Law of Moses because only a perfect Sacrifice (Christ) could atone for Adam’s sin and reconcile us to God. No righteous works could reconcile us to God either.

Only Jesus’ sacrifice could reconcile us to God.**(If you stop right there you have it)But after He reconciles us to Him as His free gift of grace to us, then we must do righteous works in order to remain in fellowship with Him. Christ has a New Covenant with us. ** You don’t understand how God works this; righteous works flow naturally from saving grace and are the result, not the means. One is grace, the other is works. I hope you see the difference.

Salvation is actually in two parts. (Unless you die immediately after baptism; then you go immediately to heaven because all of your sins are forgiven, both original and personal, by baptism).
**I don’t want to get into the baptism thing too much; Catholics and some others believe it saves, but I do not believe that…so we’ll leave it there. If a baby that was not sprinkled/baptized dies shortly after birth, what condemns that baby to hell? then ask yourself, what condemns someone to hell and can a baby really make that choice? Infant baptism is meaningless. A baby cannot reject Christ or have unbelief, which is why people go to hell. Do you see the point?
**
First Jesus reconciles us to God. After this reconciliation, then we must continue in this reconciliation in order to inherit eternal life. We must fear Him (love Him) by obeying His commandments and we must also do righteous works, in order to continue in His goodness. I think you may be confusing saving grace with blessing. You can fall out of His blessing, but you cannot fall from His saving grace. The reason I say “saving” grace is because I am distinguishing between common grace, you know the sun and rain falls and shines on both the righteous and unrighteous farmer.

Romans 11:22 “Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness (reconciliation). Otherwise you also will be cut off (damned).”
I believe you will need to read most of the entire chapter to get the context here..

I have the Church to teach me and guide me and keep me from error. Jesus gave His one Church His authority to teach. He founded it upon Peter, the rock. He promised to be with it until He returns to gather up His kingdom. He sent the Holy Spirit to guide it to keep it from teaching error. He told the Apostles to make disciples of all nations by baptizing them. I have Scripture verses to back up these claims.
That is another thread for sure, do you believe that the word of God teaches that or is this from your Church teaching or both?
John 14:7 “{that is} the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, {but} you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.”

John 15:6 "When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, {that is} the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,

Ephesians 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation–having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

John 17:17 "Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth.
Where is the truth? It is in His word.
John 16:13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth;

This is my guide.

Peace,
SHW

 

[fbl9]

**This is the second time you have taken me out of context by putting words in my mouth; please try not to do that. I don’t believe it is intentional, but it does make responding more difficult. Thanks.

To answer the question above; if you don’t have saving grace; you don’t have God and remain under His wrath. It is not my teaching; I get this from the word of God. **

If it is as you claim things to be, that only God chooses to who He gives saving grace to,then how can one be condemened for not having something that wasn’t gave to them in the first place?

 

[Seeking12]

Seeking 12"Paul is refering to those people that beleived they could keep the law: further more he is showing that you cannot keeep the law,so give it up… you can’t do it"
What is sin?it is a transgression of the LAW… so give it up live in sin…what kind of advice is that?
Seeeking 12"if you are under saving grace you will never be without saving grace.You may step out of His blessings,but if you are a child of God you will not stay that way"
So now you are telling us that one can live in sin yet still be saved.only that one is not being blessed by God.
It was only after i ingested the misleading words of man that i gave up and lived a life of sin…even with the Holy Spirit prompting me to repentence,i beleieved i was PREDESTINED not to be saved.it’s your teaching not God’s…

…bracket here>>quote=postersName] blah blah blah, then This is how you wrap each reply. if you have another one to wrap, then repeat
PostersName:

blah blah blah

see how this works?
I was paraphrasing Paul on the first response.

Do the saved still sin? Yes, but the pattern and direction of their life is to be conformed to the image of Jesus.

 

[Seeking12]

If it is as you claim things to be, that only God chooses to who He gives saving grace to,then how can one be condemened for not having something that wasn’t gave to them in the first place?

**There are many paradox’s in the Bible that we cannot fully understand in our finite fallen minds. For example, explain the Trinity-God in 3 persons? I can’t fully wrap my mind around that, but I live by faith and not by sight; so to speak. Another one, I love God, but only because He first loved me? or Did I come to God or did He come to me. The answers are both. The real big one is the God’s will versus man’s free-will. That is the real issue here, our minds say it can’t be both, but God says it is. Since I believe and trust God and although I can’t fully comprehend that I take God at face value and trust in His perfect judgment, justice and mercy.

Someone once told me that if you want to really know the God you serve, then read and understand the Psalms; they are correct. All I know is that God has revealed to us who He is and what He wants, which is our whole person, and you find this in the Holy words of Scripture. **

 

[SHW]

The link you called a paper is the word of God. Just an FYI.

Mea culpa. I looked up Bema on this website, and it had no reference for this word. I should have said “I disagree with your interpretation of this page” not “paper.”

We will all be judged at this judgment spoken of in 2 Corinthians 5:10. The reward for the righteous is eternal life and the reward for the unrighteous is damnation. However, after further study, I think that we do get our “crowns” at this very time. In a previous post, I said that we received them after we entered eternal life.

SHW

 

[Seeking12]

Mea culpa. I looked up Bema on this website, and it had no reference for this word. I should have said “I disagree with your interpretation of this page” not “paper.”

We will all be judged at this judgment spoken of in 2 Corinthians 5:10. The reward for the righteous is eternal life and the reward for the unrighteous is damnation. However, after further study, I think that we do get our “crowns” at this very time. In a previous post, I said that we received them after we entered eternal life.

SHW

**2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

bh=ma, which is bhmatov, tranliterated is Bema-Noun Neuter
Definition: 1. a step, pace, the space which a foot covers, a foot-breath
2. a raised place mounted by steps
1. a platform, tribune
1. of the official seat of a judge
2. of the judgment seat of Christ
3. Herod built a structure resembling a throne at Caesarea, from which he viewed the games and made speeches to the people
Greek touv gar pantav hmav fanerwqhnai (5683) dei (5904) emprosqen tou bhmatov tou Xristou, ina komishtai (5672) ekastov ta dia tou swmatov prov a epracen, eite agaqon eite faulon. **