Why is predestination wrong

[guanophore]

**As you grow in Christ you may very well reach a different conclusion. God’s will and man’s free-will are one of the great paradox’s in the Bible. Both are true, yet they appear to contradict each other, but our finite minds cannot comprehend the infinite mind of God, we trust in God by faith.

This is also why the Bible repeatedly stresses that salvation is wholly God’s work. Consider these passages:
**

It is interesting that you can recognize this paradox about God’s sovereignty and the free will He gave us, yet do not when it comes to salvation. There are as many scriptures that reflect the human part as there are God’s part, yet to ignore those, and say “it is wholly God’s work” even when the Holy Writ commands us to “work our your own salvation” is a gross oversight.

 

[guanophore]

If I understand you correctly, you seem to believe someone could loose there salvation, am I correct? I would contend that if someone could loose a gift from God, that they never actually ever received it. Would God recant on a gift?

This would be the Calvanistic perspective, for sure.

It is not God that “recants” on the gift. The gifts and the call of God are irrevocable. His gift continues to be offerred, though many reject it.

 Philippians 1:6 {For I am} confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.    Sanctification is also the work of God.  Just as justification and glorification.

The fact that God is able is not the issue. The issue is, will God perfect those who, after beginning in faith, turn their backs on Him. Scripture says that there remains no longer any sacrifice for such persons.

 

[guanophore]

If I understand you correctly, you seem to believe someone could loose there salvation, am I correct? I would contend that if someone could loose a gift from God, that they never actually ever received it. Would God recant on a gift?

This would be the Calvanistic perspective, for sure.

It is not God that “recants” on the gift. The gifts and the call of God are irrevocable. His gift continues to be offerred, though many reject it.

Philippians 1:6 {For I am} confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.    Sanctification is also the work of God.  Just as justification and glorification.

The fact that God is able is not the issue. The issue is, will God perfect those who, after beginning in faith, turn their backs on Him. Scripture says that there remains no longer any sacrifice for such persons.

 

[Seeking12]

guanophore:
This would be the Calvanistic perspective, for sure.

It is not God that “recants” on the gift. The gifts and the call of God are irrevocable. His gift continues to be offerred, though many reject it.

The fact that God is able is not the issue. The issue is, will God perfect those who, after beginning in faith, turn their backs on Him. Scripture says that there remains no longer any sacrifice for such persons.

**If that is Calvinistic, than you would do well to listen and quit showing your arrogance; it not very becoming of a “Christian”.

You have a great deal of respect from your fellow Catholics; so enjoy it while you can.**

 

[guanophore]

This is Catholic teaching and my belief.

I dont’ think such a statement can be supported by the catechism.

I am reasonably sure that I will be saved on Judgment Day but I am not positively sure

This being the case, how can you “lose” something you have not yet gained?

In the light of that, does it not make more sense to recognize that you will fail to obtain the salvation of your soul, rather than speak about having “lost” something you dont’ yet have?

because the devil may still devour me before I die (He wants me to lose my salvation through mortal sin) and it is possible that I could die without having time to repent if I do commit mortal sin.

The devil cannot make you “lose” something you have not yet attained either.

 

[guanophore]

**What this tells me is that you are “working” your way back to God. You do your part and God does His. **.

The Catholic Church does teach that we do have to “work our our own salvation” by which the Aposltes mean that we do our part, and he does his.

Does the Bible teach that Jesus paid for the sins of the world or not? Was it all sins or just some? I guess I do not understand the Catholic position on this

The Catholic Church teaches that Jesus died for the sins of all. Not all choose to take advantage of the benefits of His sacrifice.

because on one side of the mouth you say no works, but on the other you have to do something to earn your way back.

I don’t think any Catholic would say “no works”. Jesus says the most important “work” of man is to believe. Sometimes this takes every ounce of being we have. When we fall into sin, it does sometimes take a lot of effort to get back to where we were. We can do this because God’s grace is in us, infusing us to will and to do His good pleasure.

Makes no sense to me; so I must not understand. Seek, Ask and Knock has everything to do with finding Jesus; only from a human perspective. From God’s perspective He made His decision before time.

As you rightly noted, it is a paradox. He wants us to as, seek, and knock, yet He already knows the outcome.

Before everyone jumps on me for using the term “working”; please put into the context of the message. I know you have said the Church does not teach that, but it sure appears that way

I know it seems that way. It does because you are using a modern innovation of the term “salvation”. For the Apostles, and all those who receive the faith that was committed to them, Salvation is not completed until the judgement.

 

[guanophore]

So if you have to do something, then it is not wholly the work of God, right?

Right.

1 Corinthians 6:11 “And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.”

 This is not describing water baptism, this is the washing of regeneration, cleansing by the blood from all unrighteousness; not baptism of water. Every time you read the phrase "washing of", think of Jesus blood being poured out that cleanses us.

We do understand that Jesus blood is what washes us. Baptism is the manner in which this washing is applied to the individual.

The understanding that the work of the Spirit was effective in the baptismal waters of regeneration is present from the Apostolic age. The notion that the two are separated is a very recent innovation.

Ephesians 5:25-27 . “So that He might sanctify her” describes our continuing sanctification process.

Only God removes sin, He used Christ, not water… no amount of water can remove sin…this is not water baptism; you have been taught something or understand something that simply is not there.

YOu are right, only God removes sin. He chose to use the water to effect this, just as He chose to use mud to heal the eyes of the blind.

It is interesting that you do not see this, and can say “it is not there”. It is amazing what one can fail to see when one is wearing one’s anticatholic blinders.

I think you will have to explain to us why Jesus was so weak or disinterested that He was unable to convince the Apostles that they did not understand this correctly.

Why did He abandon the church he promised not to leave orphaned?

We must undergo a continual process of “perfecting” (sanctifying) until our deaths. Sanctification is lifelong; is the pattern of your life to sin less and less

Yes, this is very Catholic.

Romans 8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.The believers judgment is for rewards, the Bema seat; it is the great white throne judgment one who does not have Christ has to fear.

I agree, but those who are in a state of grave sin are not “in Christ”.

Must be a Catholic thing; I have never heard of such a thing or read such a thing as sacraments as a way to dispense God’s grace in the Bible; I know it is God who directly “dispenses” His saving grace upon whom He chooses. This is some strange gospel you are taught; I’m not knocking anything just stating an observation…it’s really quite mind boggling. In the end God will do the sorting on an individual basis.

It is good that you recognize the Gospel that was passed on to us by the Apostles. is significantly different than what was created by the reformers.

 

[guanophore]

If you must do something, then aren’t you working at it by default?

Yes. However, I think “working out” is a better way to phrase it. It is God who is at work in us to will and to do. We work out the salvation that he has planted within, and has taken root.

This is also speaking of people under the law, we are under grace, the law was given to show man his iniquity before God. God does not change the way people are saved; it has always been God’s grace. this is another reason why baptism of water does not save; does God change?

I can understand why it would seem that way to you, since you have been exposed to a modern notion, quite separated from Apostolic teaching, that Jesus did not actually join the HS to the water when He was baptized.

The faith to believe and come to God in the first place is also a gift of God.

This is true, but faith is a human faculty. God gifted this to us, just like the rest of our human components. He can kindle it with his grace, but it is our decision where we will put our faith, whether we will exercise it at all. It is only when we stretch forth in faith and meet His grace that we can enter into life.

 

[guanophore]

The faith to believe and come to God in the first place is also a gift of God.

This is true, but faith is a human faculty. God gifted this to us, just like the rest of our human components. He can kindle it with his grace, but it is our decision where we will put our faith, whether we will exercise it at all. It is only when we stretch forth in faith and meet His grace that we can enter into life.

 

[SHW]

Could Peter be the foundation after you said yourself that Christ is the foundation, which is the true foundation, Christ or Peter?

It is Jesus’ Church, He founded it; but He built it upon Peter.

Matthew 16:18-19 “And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock (Peter) I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give you (Peter) the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

First He changes Simon’s name to Peter (meaning rock) and then He tells Peter that He is building His Church upon this rock. This rock is Peter. He gives Peter the “keys of the kingdom.” Keys in the ancient world denote authority. A name change is a significant event. He changed Abram’s name to Abraham when He made His covenant with him. Genesis 17:5

He changed Jacob’s name to Israel and his ancestors became known as Israelites. Genesis 32:28

The Church is the pillar (support) and ground or (foundation) of the truth according to Paul.

1 Timothy 3:15 “if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.”

Paul does not say that Scripture is the support and foundation of the Truth. Paul states that Scripture is helpful.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable (helpful) for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.”

Jesus founded One, Holy, Catholic (universal) and Apostolic Church. These are the four “marks” of His Church. He built it upon Peter. Peter is the head leader of Jesus’ Church under the New Covenant; Moses was the leader of the Israelites under the Old Covenant.

SHW

 

[SHW]

**

Do you really believe all that?**

That is a very interesting belief. I can’t really comment further because it would come across as offensive and that is not my intention.

YES! I do believe all of that!

Why are you here in a Catholic forum? Are you the clone of NonCatholic? He left on February 13 due to banishment. You arrive on February 14. Same ideas, different name. Coincidence??? I think not. Of course, I could be wrong. If I am, I apologize in advance.

Perhaps your time could be better spent in an “eternal security” forum rather than a Catholic forum. One or two Scripture verses cited and misinterpreted by you in order to support your “eternal security” doctrine will not make any of us change our minds. We believe the 2000 year old doctrines of Christ handed down through the Church by Apostolic Succession.

We take to heart Paul’s warning:

Galatians 1:6-9 “I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.”

Peace,
SHW

 

[SHW]

I dont’ think such a statement can be supported by the catechism.

This being the case, how can you “lose” something you have not yet gained?

In the light of that, does it not make more sense to recognize that you will fail to obtain the salvation of your soul, rather than speak about having “lost” something you dont’ yet have?

The devil cannot make you “lose” something you have not yet attained either.

Salvation is a life-long process (unless a person dies immediately after Baptism). This is Catholic teaching.

When I am in a state of sanctifying grace, then I am “saved.” If I sin and I am in a state of mortal sin; then I have lost my salvation. I had it; but I have it no more. I can regain it back by repenting, confessing, etc.

However, the state of my soul when I die is the state of my soul for eternity. If I am in a state of grace when I die; then I inherit eternal life. If I am not in a state of grace when I die; then I am condemned to hell.

Ezekiel 33:12-20

Ephesians 6:11-13 “Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.”

Acts 20:30-32 “Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. 31 Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.
32 “So now, brethren, I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified.”

God will help us to persevere until the end of our lives if we cooperate with His graces.

Philippians 2:12-13 “Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.”

Not everyone will cooperate with the grace of the Holy Spirit.

Galatians 1:6-8 “I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.”

SHW

 

[guanophore]

Could Peter be the foundation after you said yourself that Christ is the foundation, which is the true foundation, Christ or Peter?

Yes, Peter is part of the foundation:

Eph 2:19-22
fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; 22 in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

Jesus is the Cornerstone. He grafted Peter into Himself when Peter made the infallible proclamation about His identity, knowing that this was revealed to Peter by the Father.

The Apostles and prophets in union with Peter are also part of the foundation. Peter has a unique gift that was not given to the other Apostles, though.

**If that is Calvinistic, than you would do well to listen and quit showing your arrogance; it not very becoming of a “Christian”.

You have a great deal of respect from your fellow Catholics; so enjoy it while you can.**

Perhaps you can help me with this? what have I said or done that was arrogant? If you can point this out, it will help me to be a better Christian. Thanks in advance.

Do you think my fellow Catholics are going to soon begin to disrespect me? did God tell you that?

 

[guanophore]

**Salvation is a life-long process** (unless a person dies immediately after Baptism). This is Catholic teaching.

This being the case,how can one “lose” something they don’t yet have?

 When I am in a state of sanctifying grace, then I am "saved."

I don’t think so. I think you are in a state of grace. I think you will not “be saved” until you stand before your Maker.

If I sin and I am in a state of mortal sin; then I have lost my salvation. I had it; but I have it no more. I can regain it back by repenting, confessing, etc.

If you were already saved, then what difference did it make if you sinned? It is a done deal!

However, the state of my soul when I die is the state of my soul for eternity. If I am in a state of grace when I die; then I inherit eternal life. If I am not in a state of grace when I die; then I am condemned to hell.

I think this is a much more appropriate way to express what you are saying. When you use the word “saved” then “unsaved” with evangelicals, it only brings more confusion into the discussion. They do not understand salvation the way the Apostles taught it, but only by how the Reformers redefined it.

Ezekiel 33:12-20

Ephesians 6:11-13 “Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.”

There is nothing in this passage that would indicate the recipients of this letter are already saved. In fact, I would say it indicates that they are still in the fight!
SHW;4837875:

Acts 20:30-32

“Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. 31 Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.
32 “So now, brethren, I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified.”

We don’t attain our inheritance in this life. It is waiting for us in heaven. That is why stating that we are “saved” is misleading.

God will help us to persevere until the end of our lives if we cooperate with His graces.

Philippians 2:12-13

“Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.”

Not everyone will cooperate with the grace of the Holy Spirit.

Another reason it is misleading to call people "saved’ in this life.

 

[SHW]

This being the case,how can one “lose” something they don’t yet have?

I don’t think so. I think you are in a state of grace. I think you will not “be saved” until you stand before your Maker.

If you were already saved, then what difference did it make if you sinned? It is a done deal!

I think this is a much more appropriate way to express what you are saying. When you use the word “saved” then “unsaved” with evangelicals, it only brings more confusion into the discussion. They do not understand salvation the way the Apostles taught it, but only by how the Reformers redefined it.

There is nothing in this passage that would indicate the recipients of this letter are already saved. In fact, I would say it indicates that they are still in the fight!

We don’t attain our inheritance in this life. It is waiting for us in heaven. That is why stating that we are “saved” is misleading.

Another reason it is misleading to call people "saved’ in this life.

I see what you are talking about as far as persons of different Christian faiths not understanding the definitions of terms. But justification and salvation (saved) are used interchangeably in Scripture.

1 Corinthians 6:11 “And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.”

This justification is spoken of in “past tense” so they have already been justified by Baptism which is what this verse is describing. This is our initial justification which Jesus gave us as a free gift by His sacrifice on the cross. He reconciled us to His Father and we receive this free gift of grace through Baptism so that after our Baptisms we have hope of inheriting eternal life.

Titus 3:4-8 “But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7** that having been justified** by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.”

This verse states that Christ’s death on the cross both saved us and justified us through Baptism. This justification (reconciliation) and salvation gives us hope of inheriting eternal life. It does not guarantee eternal life (unless a person dies immediately after baptism before he can commit personal sins).

Ephesians 2:8 “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,”

This verse is saying that we are saved through our faith in Jesus Christ and this is the justification (reconciliation with God) that is given to us through baptism. Baptism saves us (justifies us).

Scripture states that both justification and salvation are used interchangeably, as you can see from the preceding Scripture verses cited.

However, we are also justified and saved by our righteous works.

James 2:25 “Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?”

James 2:24 “You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.”

We will be judged according to our works on Judgment Day.

1 Timothy 2:15 “Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control.”

Scripture states that women will be saved by childbearing.

James 5:20 “let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.”

The two terms “justified” and “saved” are used interchangeably in Scripture when speaking of both Jesus’ free gift of reconciliation through baptism and also our own righteous works done while we are “working out our own salvation with fear and trembling.”

Philippians 2:12 “Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;”

2 Corinthians 2:15 “For we are to God the fragrance of Christ among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing.”
**
Final salvation/justification is a life-long process.**

to be continued…

 

[SHW]

Continued:

It would have been easier to understand if justification had been used strictly as meaning Jesus’ sacrifice which reconciled us to God and salvation used strictly to mean our inheritance of eternal life. But unfortunately, it was not written that way. This is why we need the Church to interpret Scripture for us. We all need to be taught by Jesus’ One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church in order to learn the correct interpretation of Holy Scripture.

2 Peter 3:16 “as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.”

Tim Staples has an excellent paper on this topic of Salvation as a life-long process at

catholic.com/thisrock/2007/0712btb.aspcatholic.com/thisrock/2007/0712btb.asp

SHW

 

[SHW]

Yes, Peter is part of the foundation:

Eph 2:19-22
fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; 22 in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

Jesus is the Cornerstone. He grafted Peter into Himself when Peter made the infallible proclamation about His identity, knowing that this was revealed to Peter by the Father.

The Apostles and prophets in union with Peter are also part of the foundation. Peter has a unique gift that was not given to the other Apostles, though.

Thank you for this Scripture citation.

SHW

 

[guanophore]

Continued:

It would have been easier to understand if justification had been used strictly as meaning Jesus’ sacrifice which reconciled us to God and salvation used strictly to mean our inheritance of eternal life. But unfortunately, it was not written that way. This is why we need the Church to interpret Scripture for us. We all need to be taught by Jesus’ One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church in order to learn the correct interpretation of Holy Scripture.

2 Peter 3:16 “as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.”

Tim Staples has an excellent paper on this topic of Salvation as a life-long process at

catholic.com/thisrock/2007/0712btb.aspcatholic.com/thisrock/2007/0712btb.asp

SHW

I agree with you. The point I am trying to make is that scripture does not support your assertion that salvation is “lost” or that we are saved, and unsaved. Clearly the Apostolic understanding of salvation is that it is past, present, and future. Though there are certain elements that have been completed, there are some that are not. Using the phrase " salvation can be lost" creates a lot of problems when trying to make these concepts clear to our separated brethren, who have not received the Apostolic Teaching, and have been misled to beleive that initial justification is complete and eternal.

BTW, thanks for your excellent posts.

 

[SHW]

I agree with you. The point I am trying to make is that scripture does not support your assertion that salvation is “lost” or that we are saved, and unsaved. Clearly the Apostolic understanding of salvation is that it is past, present, and future. Though there are certain elements that have been completed, there are some that are not. Using the phrase " salvation can be lost" creates a lot of problems when trying to make these concepts clear to our separated brethren, who have not received the Apostolic Teaching, and have been misled to beleive that initial justification is complete and eternal.

BTW, thanks for your excellent posts.

Thank you for your kind words.

2 John 1:8 “Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward.”

Luke 15:32 “But we had to celebrate and rejoice, for this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live, and was lost and has been found.”

Matthew 18:11 “For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost.”

Matthew 5:29 “If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.”

Luke 9:25 “For what is a man profited if he gains the whole world, and loses or forfeits himself?”

Romans 11:22 “Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness,** if you continue** in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.”

Romans 11:23 “And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.”

Colossians 1:21-23 “And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, **and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel **which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.”

SHW

 

[guanophore]

2 John 1:8 “Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward.”

We don’t accomplish full reward in this life. Salvation is yet to be attained.

Luke 15:32 “But we had to celebrate and rejoice, for this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live, and was lost and has been found.”

He seeks us, and finds us, but we are not united to Him inseparably in this life. There is always the possibility that we can fall from grace. Beginning to live does not necessarily mean that one will win the race.

Matthew 18:11 "For the Son of Man has come to save that which was **lost**."

Souls are lost by default. The fact that we are born under original sin means that we all stand condemned.
SHW;4842678:

Matthew 5:29

“If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.”

Which passage serves to support my contention that the whole body can be thrown into hell, rather than saved.

Luke 9:25 "For what is a man profited if he gains the whole world, and **loses** or forfeits himself?"

This is better terminology to use than “saved/unsaved” when in dialog with our separated brethren. This terminology is biblical (“unsaved” is not) and will not get them confused with their erroneous understandings of the word “salvation”.

Romans 11:22 "Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness,** if you continue** in His kindness; **otherwise** you also will be **cut off**."

I hope you are not thinking that I do not espouse the Apostolic Teaching on salvation.

All I am trying to communicate to you is that the phrase “lose salvation” is not the most effective one to employ when attempting to discuss the matter with evangelicals. They have a different understanding of the word, and because of what they understand about what we know of as “initial justification” they become stubborn and confused.

Romans 11:23 “And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.”

I had never considered “grafted/cut off” as an alternative to “saved/unsaved” but it is good food for thought.