Why is predestination wrong

[SHW]

Using the phrase " salvation can be lost" creates a lot of problems when trying to make these concepts clear to our separated brethren, who have not received the Apostolic Teaching, and have been misled to beleive that initial justification is complete and eternal.

I was merely quoting Scripture verses which seem to say that salvation can be lost, using the terms “lost” and "lose."

Originally Posted by SHW Luke 9:25 “For what is a man profited if he gains the whole world, and loses or forfeits himself?”

Originally posted by guanophore: This is better terminology to use than “saved/unsaved” when in dialog with our separated brethren. This terminology is biblical (“unsaved” is not) and will not get them confused with their erroneous understandings of the word “salvation”.

Hasn’t he lost his salvation if he loses or forfeits himself? If you are not “saved,” then aren’t you “unsaved?”

The definition of terms pertaining to salvation topics depends on to whom you are speaking. I think it would be best to find out what definitions they give the terms they use when discussing salvation.

As Scripture shows, the words: justification, salvation, saved, reconciliation, inherit or enter eternal life, righteous, and “grafted in,” etc. are all used to explain a “right relationship” with God and this often makes for confusing dialog.

Originally Posted by SHW:
Romans 11:22 “Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.”

Originally posted by guanophore: I hope you are not thinking that I do not espouse the Apostolic Teaching on salvation.

No, I definitely don’t think that.

Lost, death, die, cut off, dead, enemies, unrighteous, and “not inherit the kingdom of God,” etc. are all used in Scripture to signify that our salvation or “right relationship” with God is lost due to sin; whether original sin or our own personal sins.

Originally posted by guanophore: All I am trying to communicate to you is that the phrase “lose salvation” is not the most effective one to employ when attempting to discuss the matter with evangelicals. They have a different understanding of the word, and because of what they understand about what we know of as “initial justification” they become stubborn and confused. … I had never considered “grafted/cut off” as an alternative to “saved/unsaved” but it is good food for thought.

Scripture does use the words “lose and lost” in reference to salvation topics.

“Cut off the Vine (Christ)” is a good analogy to use.

John 15:5-6 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.”

Paul is so frustrated with some of the Galatians that he says:

Galatians 5:12 “I could wish that those who trouble you would even cut themselves off!”

Paul is talking about wishing that some of the Galatians would cut themselves off the Vine (Christ), or in other words, he is saying that they will no longer be saved. (They will separate themselves from the gospel of Christ by heresy if they continue to insist that circumcision is necessary for salvation.)

I use Romans 5:10 in order to explain the process of salvation because it shows that the initial reconciliation is not the only thing that saves us and that it is not just a one-time event.

We are reconciled to God by the free gift of grace but then we continue to be saved much more by His life.

Romans 5:10 “For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.”

Peace,
SHW

 

[ncgolf]

I had never considered “grafted/cut off” as an alternative to “saved/unsaved” but it is good food for thought.

Baptism “grafts” us … and we remain … until death when we are judged on the fruit that one has produced. A dead vine which produces no fruit is liable to be cut off … and burned as a dead branch is of no use to the vine … even though it had remained on the vine and had access to all the nourishment necessary for producing fruit.

 

[SHW]

Baptism “grafts” us … and we remain … until death when we are judged on the fruit that one has produced. A dead vine which produces no fruit is liable to be cut off … and burned as a dead branch is of no use to the vine … even though it had remained on the vine and had access to all the nourishment necessary for producing fruit.

We are cut off the vine by mortal sin. We do not remain attached to it.

SHW

 

[fbl9]

We are cut off the vine by mortal sin. We do not remain attached to it.

SHW

When is one judged?When we physically die.
By mortal sin we become spiritually dead,but we are not yet physically cut off.It is when we are judged that one is literally cut off from the vine.Ever see a tree with dead branches still attached?Ever see a branch cut itself off?
When one is in mortal sin then repents are they thus re-atatched to the vine?
Could one say that by mortal sin one cuts themsleves off from the sap(life blood of any tree)(sap =God’s grace) but not off the vine.?

 

[SHW]

When is one judged?When we physically die.
By mortal sin we become spiritually dead,but we are not yet physically cut off.It is when we are judged that one is literally cut off from the vine.Ever see a tree with dead branches still attached?Ever see a branch cut itself off?
When one is in mortal sin then repents are they thus re-atatched to the vine?
Could one say that by mortal sin one cuts themsleves off from the sap(life blood of any tree)(sap =God’s grace) but not off the vine.?

If you look at a grape vine and see a dead branch, this dead branch will never come to life again. The sap has been permanently cut off and the branch can never receive nourishment again. A new branch must be grafted onto the vine in order for it to receive life-sustaining sap. This “grafting” of a branch (repentant person) onto the Vine (Christ) is done by the power of the Holy Spirit through the priest in the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

John 15:1-2 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.”

Romans 11:22-24 “Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?”

SHW

 

[fbl9]

If you look at a grape vine and see a dead branch, this dead branch will never come to life again. The sap has been permanently cut off and the branch can never receive nourishment again. A new branch must be grafted onto the vine in order for it to receive life-sustaining sap. This “grafting” of a branch (repentant person) onto the Vine (Christ) is done by the power of the Holy Spirit through the priest in the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

John 15:1-2 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.”

Romans 11:22-24 “Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?”

SHW

Thanks for the quote i couldn’t find it.(Romans 11;22-24)But it doesn’t cover what we have been talking about.For the dead branches spoken of are Jews and the new branches are gentiles.
The quote from John is more suited to what the discussion of late has been.By mortal sin one is dead,yet by repentance we can be revived,thus we are really still bearing fruit,if one doesn’t repent then we bear no fruit and are thus cut off permentally.
The gospel written by St.Luke13:6-9,check it out it goes more along with what i am saying.

 

[redrosetea]

Why is predestination wrong?

Because it implies we have no choice or control over what we do…It isn’t true

 

[Jerry-Jet]

God knowing what will happen and simultanelously knowing that when He creates–and also knowing the actions that He would take in any eventuality does not “Control” our moral choices.

look at it this way–say the Pittsburgh Steelers are playing a high school football team next week.

Me “knowing” that they will win does not “control” the game.

 

[SHW]

Thanks for the quote i couldn’t find it.(Romans 11;22-24)But it doesn’t cover what we have been talking about.For the dead branches spoken of are Jews and the new branches are gentiles.
The quote from John is more suited to what the discussion of late has been.By mortal sin one is dead,yet by repentance we can be revived,thus we are really still bearing fruit,if one doesn’t repent then we bear no fruit and are thus cut off permentally.
The gospel written by St.Luke13:6-9,check it out it goes more along with what i am saying.

You’re welcome.
We are not bearing any good fruit while we are in a state of mortal sin. None of our good deeds are remembered when we are in a state of mortal sin. Souls that are dead because of mortal sin cannot produce anything good. They have no life (sanctifying grace) within them.

Ezekiel 33:13 “When I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, but he trusts in his own righteousness and commits iniquity, none of his righteous works shall be remembered; but because of the iniquity that he has committed, he shall die.”

I agree that the quote from Romans was particularly speaking about the Jews.

However, since they have been cut off by unbelief (which is mortal sin), they have to be grafted back on again because they are no longer attached. I think it means the same for anyone who has sinned; they are cut off just like the Jews were. They will be grafted on again when they believe (repent and confess).

Luke 13:6-9 "He also spoke this parable: “A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none. 7 Then he said to the keeper of his vineyard, ‘Look, for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree and find none. Cut it down; why does it use up the ground?’ 8 But he answered and said to him, ‘Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and fertilize it. 9 And if it bears fruit, well. But if not, after that you can cut it down.’”

The tree is not dead yet, it looks good, but it is not producing. It is in reference to a person or nation that is not producing good fruit. This is a warning that the tree (person or Israel) will be cut down and destroyed if it does not shape up and produce good fruit.

Matthew 21:18-19 “Now in the morning, as He returned to the city, He was hungry. 19 And seeing a fig tree by the road, He came to it and found nothing on it but leaves, and said to it, “Let no fruit grow on you ever again.” Immediately the fig tree withered away.”

This is punishment for not producing good fruits.

James 2:20 “But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?”

James 2:26 “For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.”

Revelation 3:15-16 “I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. 16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth.”

No good works? Then no salvation. God will vomit those persons out of His mouth.

Matthew 3:8 “Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance”

We are cut off by mortal sin. We wither away until dead by neglecting to produce good fruit.

SHW

 

[fbl9]

You’re welcome.
We are not bearing any good fruit while we are in a state of mortal sin. None of our good deeds are remembered when we are in a state of mortal sin. Souls that are dead because of mortal sin cannot produce anything good. They have no life (sanctifying grace) within them.[agreed,]

We are cut off by mortal sin. We wither away until dead by neglecting to produce good fruit.

SHW

are we able to repent completely on our own or are "compeled"by the holy spirit to repent?If one is "compelled"by the HS to repent is then is that not producing good fruit?

 

[maryrev12]

Dos he call or give grace to EVERYONE?

TITUS

2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men

 

[ncgolf]

We are cut off the vine by mortal sin. We do not remain attached to it.

SHW

I think there is a semantic problem with this analogy … I use the grafting as the metaphor for Baptism … in Baptism one is grafted onto the Body and we are marked … permanently … however … while the mark remains the justification received can be mitigated by mortal sin.

For the sake of the analogy I use this permanent seal as the grafting. One in mortal sin cannot receive sanctifying grace thus is cut off from the eternal life (sanctifying grace) … though this cutting off may not become permanent and requires new initiatives by God to reconcile us and thus renew the flow of sanctifying grace. This, in my thinking, is Jesus looking for the 1 lost sheep and leaving the other 99. Though outside the boundries of protection … we are still considered to be part of the flock.

This is the context I use this analogy … but yes … it is true that one in mortal since flounders and if we are in this state at death … are permanently cut from the vine and burned.

So I think we look at this analogy a little differently but the end result is the same.

 

[SHW]

are we able to repent completely on our own or are "compeled"by the holy spirit to repent?If one is "compelled"by the HS to repent is then is that not producing good fruit?

God loves us and He wants us to repent, using our own free wills, in order to be saved. The Holy Spirit never forces us to repent. “Force” and “free will” are two opposite terms. If you have one of them, then it is impossible to have the other. (If I say “yes;” then I cannot say “no” also.) So, no, we cannot be “forced” to repent. Repenting does not produce good fruit. We do good works worthy of our repentance. The good fruits (good works) that we produce are proof of our sincere repentance.

Matthew 3:8 “Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance,”

Titus 1:16 “They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.”

No excuses are accepted for neglecting to do good works (producing good fruits).

Titus 3:8 “This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.”

2 Timothy 2:13 “If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself.”

God is ever faithful because He is Love and He loves His creation and He wants us to enjoy eternal life with Him. But we choose, by our own free will actions, whether we actually do obey Him so that we can inherit eternal life with Him.

2 Peter 3:9 “The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.”

When we are first reconciled with God through Baptism, we become His adopted children, so we become sons and daughters of God.

Galatians 4:4-6 "But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. 6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!”

Romans 8:14 “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.”

When we sin mortal sins, we become sons of disobedience and we deserve God’s wrath, which we will receive, if we die while still in disobedience.

Colossians 3:5-7 “Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, 7 in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them.”

He keeps calling us to repentance through our consciences.

John 8:9 “Then those who heard it, being convicted by their conscience, went out one by one, beginning with the oldest even to the last. And Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.”

1 Timothy 1:18-20 “This charge I commit to you, son Timothy, according to the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you may wage the good warfare, 19 having faith and a good conscience, which some having rejected, concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck, 20 of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.”

Some persons become deaf to their consciences, however, and it is God who extends His mercy to them. I think this is where the prayers of the faithful are very beneficial. We all can ask God’s mercy for fallen-away, unrepentant sinners so that they may be re-converted. Of course, their own free wills determine if they accept God’s mercy and repent.

Continuing with 1 Timothy 2:1-4 “Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”

James 5:16 “Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.”

James 5:19-20 “Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.”

SHW

 

[SHW]

Originally Posted by zhangxupage
Dos he call or give grace to EVERYONE?

Yes!

TITUS 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men

He offers salvation to everyone. But, in order to be saved, we must accept and cooperate with His grace in order to be saved. We accept His grace when we choose to be baptized (or when our parents chose for us and had us baptized as infants). After we are reconciled to God through Baptism, we must obey His commandments and do good works by cooperating with His graces. He gives us the grace which enables us to obey Him and to do these good works, but we must actually obey Him and we must actually do the good works. He does not do them for us. We must do these things until we die in order to remain reconciled with Him and enter eternal life.

Romans 12:1 “I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service.”

Jesus presented His body to God as a living sacrifice on the cross in order to reconcile us to God (atone for Adam’s sin) so that we can inherit eternal life. We are expected to present our bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable, to God in return for this great gift. Paul states that this is indeed a reasonable thing for God to ask of us.

SHW

 

[SHW]

I think there is a semantic problem with this analogy … I use the grafting as the metaphor for Baptism … in Baptism one is grafted onto the Body and we are marked … permanently … however … while the mark remains the justification received can be mitigated by mortal sin.

For the sake of the analogy I use this permanent seal as the grafting. One in mortal sin cannot receive sanctifying grace thus is cut off from the eternal life (sanctifying grace) … though this cutting off may not become permanent and requires new initiatives by God to reconcile us and thus renew the flow of sanctifying grace. This, in my thinking, is Jesus looking for the 1 lost sheep and leaving the other 99. Though outside the boundries of protection … we are still considered to be part of the flock.

This is the context I use this analogy … but yes … it is true that one in mortal since flounders and if we are in this state at death … are permanently cut from the vine and burned.

So I think we look at this analogy a little differently but the end result is the same.

Hi Nancy

I look at “grafting” differently than you do and I do get a different result. I see “grafted on the tree” meaning “one who presently believes (obeys God’s commandments and produces good fruits)” and therefore this person is “attached to the olive tree” (Church). A person in mortal sin is no longer attached to this olive tree. He has cut himself off the tree. He no longer receives the graces of the Church. He is dead in sin. Mortal sin does not mitigate (lessen) our justification. Instead, mortal sin forfeits our justification. We are no longer justified when we commit mortal sin.

Hebrews 10:26-27 “For** if we sin willfully** after we have received the knowledge of the truth,** there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins**, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.”

We lose our justification when we sin mortal sins.

The Parable of the Lost Sheep is told to show us that Jesus wants each and every one of us saved. We are all important to Him and He does not want even one of us to be lost (damned). He rejoices greatly when we repent.

Pax,
SHW

 

[Earnest_Bunbury]

From the Vatican Website, “The Mystery of Predestination in Christ” General Audience May 28, 1986:

We read in the Letter to the Ephesians:

“God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ…chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him in love, having destined us to be his children through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace” (Eph 1:3-6).

These luminous statements explain authentically and authoritatively what predestination consists in. (Christian terminology calls this “predestination” from the Latin term praedestinatio.) It is important to clarify this term from those erroneous or even imprecise and non-essential meanings which have entered into common use—predestination as a synonym for “blind fate” or the capricious “anger” of an envious divinity. In divine revelation the word “predestination” means God’s eternal choice, a paternal, intelligent and positive choice, a choice prompted by love.

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19860528en.html

 

[guanophore]

I was merely quoting Scripture verses which seem to say that salvation can be lost, using the terms “lost” and “lose.”

I understand that, and I appreciate what you are doing. What I am trying to point out to you is that this formulation is counterproductive when used with Evangelicals, who have a non-Apostolic understanding of “salvation”.

Hasn't he **lost his salvation** if he **loses** or **forfeits** himself? If you are not "saved," then aren't you "unsaved?" :confused:

I have no contention with your perspective.

The definition of terms pertaining to salvation topics depends on to whom you are speaking. I think it would be best to find out what definitions they give the terms they use when discussing salvation.

I agree. Usually they only mean what the Apostles taught was initial justification.

As Scripture shows, the words: justification, salvation, saved, reconciliation, inherit or enter eternal life, righteous, and “grafted in,” etc. are all used to explain a “right relationship” with God and this often makes for confusing dialog.

I agree. And using the phrase “lose salvation” only complicates matters.

Lost, death, die, cut off, dead, enemies, unrighteous, and “not inherit the kingdom of God,” etc. are all used in Scripture to signify that our salvation or “right relationship” with God is lost due to sin; whether original sin or our own personal sins.

You and I understand these words this way because we have received the Apostolic Teaching. They understand them differently. Our challenge is to use this language to help them understand what the Apostles meant by them. Using the phrase “loss of salvation” is counter productive in that task.

Scripture does use the words "lose and lost" in reference to salvation topics.

“Cut off the Vine (Christ)” is a good analogy to use.

John 15:5-6 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.”

You are preaching to the choir, SHW. I am in agreement on all these points. I am taking issue with your use of the phrase “lose salvation”.

Paul is so frustrated with some of the Galatians that he says:

Galatians 5:12 “I could wish that those who trouble you would even cut themselves off!” Paul is talking about wishing that some of the Galatians would cut themselves off the Vine (Christ), or in other words, he is saying that they will no longer be saved. (They will separate themselves from the gospel of Christ by heresy if they continue to insist that circumcision is necessary for salvation.)

He does say that, but he is not talking about salvation. He is talking about their private parts! He is frustrated by those who are insisting that the Gentiles be circumcised. Another way to render this would be “tell them, I hope the knife slips”!

I use Romans 5:10 in order to explain the process of salvation because it shows that the initial reconciliation is not the only thing that saves us and that it is not just a one-time event.

I think you are doing a great job.

We are reconciled to God by the free gift of grace but then we continue to be saved much more by His life.

Romans 5:10 “For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.”

Peace,
SHW

The problem is not with you, it emanates from the heresies in which evangelicals have been steeped. They have a hard time wrapping their minds around these concepts.

 

[fbl9]

God loves us and He wants us to repent, using our own free wills, in order to be saved. The Holy Spirit never forces us to repent. “Force” and “free will” are two opposite terms. If you have one of them, then it is impossible to have the other.

Some persons become deaf to their consciences, however, and it is God who extends His mercy to them. I think this is where the prayers of the faithful are very beneficial. We all can ask God’s mercy for fallen-away, unrepentant sinners so that they may be re-converted. Of course, their own free wills determine if they accept God’s mercy and repent.

We recieve a good conscience through baptism.Which is the work of the HS in us.Does not one’s conscience bug them when they are in the wrong?Yes it does and this is the “compelling” of the Hs i speak of.
i would have to agree with what ncgolf wrote,bc it is what i am trying to say to you here.
the final pruning takes place at one’s judgement.

 

[SHW]

I understand that, and I appreciate what you are doing. What I am trying to point out to you is that this formulation is counterproductive when used with Evangelicals, who have a non-Apostolic understanding of “salvation”.

I think I will ask them to define terms before dialoguing.

He does say that, but he is not talking about salvation. He is talking about their private parts! He is frustrated by those who are insisting that the Gentiles be circumcised. Another way to render this would be “tell them, I hope the knife slips”!

Yes, I agree with you. However, Scripture can have more than one meaning. God knew that 2000 years after this revelation, that we would be using Scripture to explain Salvation. Not many persons know the truth about Paul’s cutting remark.

The problem is not with you, it emanates from the heresies in which evangelicals have been steeped. They have a hard time wrapping their minds around these concepts.

I see what you mean. Since this is a Catholic forum; it would be courteous for them to learn our terminology. I would certainly learn their terminology if I posted on their faith’s forums.

Pax,
SHW

 

[SHW]

We recieve a good conscience through baptism.Which is the work of the HS in us.Does not one’s conscience bug them when they are in the wrong?Yes it does and this is the “compelling” of the Hs i speak of.
i would have to agree with what ncgolf wrote,bc it is what i am trying to say to you here.
the final pruning takes place at one’s judgement.

Indeed, we receive a good conscience through Baptism. But it needs exercising or else we lose it.

We will agree to disagree about grafting.

I think Jesus prunes a person, who has sanctifying grace, through trials and suffering, in order to make them more fruitful.

John 15:2 “Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit** He takes away**; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.”

Those that do not bear fruit (those in mortal sin) are cut off from the Vine. (He takes them away.) Those who do bear fruit (those with sanctifying grace) He prunes in order to make them even more fruitful.

Luke 9:23 “Then He said to them all, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.”

James 1:12 “Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.”

James 1:2-4 “My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, 3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience. 4 But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing.”

1 Peter 1:6-7 “In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ,”

Jesus “prunes” us by trials which God allows because of His permissive will.

Pax,
SHW