Why is scrupulosity a bad thing?

[7_Sorrows]

Just use soap and water. Hand sanitizer does not work as well as plain old soap and water. Hand sanitizer can be irritating, and dries out your skin. My son had to stop using antibacterial soap as a child for the same reason.

I thought several years ago we were told over use of hand sanitizer was bad and
would keep our bodies from learning how to fight off germs. Do you remember
that @Irishmom2
?

I only use hand sanitizer when I get back into my car after pumping gas, going into
the grocery store or Wal-Mart (wherever I don’t have access to soap and water)

 

[Tommy999]

. It’s not a religious problem; it’s a religious manifestation of a mental problem. Change religious and your obsessions will change.

Just curious how would scrupulosity manifest itself among Protestants and other religions. Perhaps in insisting to sit in the same pew each week? Otherwise, I am a bit hard-pressed to think of any religious examples.

I’ve been Protestant all my life and I’d never heard the term “Scruples” before coming to CAF and seem to run into manifestations of it almost daily with certain people’s questions that seem absurd on the surface that leave me in disbelief if the question was really serious, such as, “Is it a sin to eat meat on Friday that was stuck in between your teeth on Thursday evening?”

On the other hand, to their credit, many well balanced Catholics on CAF seem to recognize scrupulous individuals immediately and nip them in the bud, often advising them to talk to their priest about their issue, which seems like excellent advice.

 

[edward_george1]

We do occasionally get some Protestant posters who present as scrupulous. Some are inquirers or in RCIA, but some are not. I’ve seen that kind of thing too with “preacher’s kids” types, who grow up repressed and racked with guilt, though most of them seem to take on the release valve of getting out of the house and cutting loose when they turn 18.

There is another and less extreme release valve, and that has to do with the fact that for many Protestants, forgiveness of sins involves personal prayer, but not accountability to another person as in sacramental confession. So perhaps the impulse of scruples is enhanced by the externality of there being a sacrament to go to for reassurance seeking.

 

[Tommy999]

Thanks, Father. Yes, unfortunately I have met a number of preacher’s kids who fit the description of either being squeaky perfect or rebellious to the hilt.

To me, Protestants seem to be less scrupulous than Catholics, but perhaps Protestants go too far in the other direction of not taking sin as seriously as they should.

 

[7_Sorrows]

@Tommy999

Your post made me laugh so hard! I am a former Episcopalian who had never heard of scrupulosity either until I joined the Catholic church.

However, I will share a funny story. I stopped attending church at the age of 18
when I went off to college. I had never been in any other protestant church except for possibly a wedding or funeral. Around the age of 45 I decided to try attending a small Episcopal church in a new city I had moved to. I picked a spot and sat down and later an older woman entered the church with 2-3 other people. The older woman’s mouth dropped and she gave me the dirtiest look. I had smiled
at her. Her family steered her to the pew behind me and I heard her complaining.
Finally, I understood that I must have set in her designated spot. That pretty much turned me off to the church and I stopped attending soon after. So, yes, I think some Protestants and probably some Catholics too are scrupulous about sitting in the same pew every Sunday.

I think depression would be a bigger hindrance to one’s spiritual life and a bigger
concern than scrupulosity, but I have learned a lot since joining CAF and scrupulosity definitely gets nipped in the bud here.

The example of meat stuck between your teeth really had me laughing.

 

[7_Sorrows]

However, I have seen from Protestant friends before I was Catholic and a non-practicing religious person a lot of accountability in those committed to one church family. They have their small prayer groups and Bible study groups and call one another often to keep each other accountable. Of course, it is not the same thing as a sacramental confession, but it seems to work. I have Protestant friends
who are better Christians than I will probably ever be.

 

[FiveLinden]

Finally, I understood that I must have set in her designated spot. That pretty much turned me off to the church and I stopped attending soon after. So, yes, I think some Protestants and probably some Catholics too are scrupulous about sitting in the same pew every Sunday.

This is an example of annoyance, not a manifestation of OCD. If the woman had an OCD obsession about your sitting in her seat the problem would have manifested itself in significant internal distress for the woman and it would be most unlikely to manifest as ‘complaining’. OCD is a serious mental illness and no more to be compared with ordinary habits than major depression is to be compared with fleeting and normal sadness.

 

[FiveLinden]

There is another and less extreme release valve, and that has to do with the fact that for many Protestants, forgiveness of sins involves personal prayer, but not accountability to another person as in sacramental confession.

Father, if I understand correctly from this that you think it is possible to obtain more than very temporary relief from obsessions generated by OCD by prayer or confession then you have not understood the disorder.

 

[7_Sorrows]

She was definitely distressed - I expect both internally and externally. She was more than annoyed.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Scrupulosity is a terrible thing, but that said, I’ve always maintained that for someone who has been living a reprobate life, and finally comes under conviction, a little temporary dose of scrupulosity could be a salutary corrective — “break you down to build you back up” with the assistance of a good confessor in union with the magisterium, temporal punishment for all those years of living in sin.

I say this as one who thought for several years that I knew more than God and His Church, but was mercifully spared the cross to which I refer. I knew deep down I was wrong, and my conviction and correction was very gentle.

 

[cannotdecide]

From:

http://www.catholictradition.org/Classics/abandonment13-4.htm

It outlines some causes:

"excess in work or austerities, … reading of books that are over-severe, … a melancholy disposition, … weakness of the head, or certain conditions of health. "

drawbacks like how it is obstructs prayer and frustrates spiritual maturity:

“The soul enslaved to it turns her attention upon herself … And all this time she elicits no acts of adoration or thanksgiving.”

“thus, whilst others march forward, run, fly, in the paths of perfection … the poor victim of scruples … wearies himself in vain, [and] makes hardly any progress.”

and remedies:

“He must pray, therefore … and implore the grace to renounce his own ideas”

'‘In conclusion,’ says St. Alphonsus, ‘I repeat: Obey, obey!’ And I beg of you: cease to regard God as a cruel tyrant. No doubt, He hates sin. But He cannot hate a soul that sincerely detests and laments her faults."

Other resources:

SCRUPLES AND THEIR TREATMENT by Fr William Doyle S.J.

https://fatherdoyle.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/scruples-and-their-treatment.pdf

ST. ALPHONSUS LIGOURI GUIDE FOR CONFESSORS
Chapter 7 - Special Situations - The Confessor and the Scrupulous

https://www.scribd.com/doc/235687056/St-Alphonsus-Liguori-Guide-for-Confessors

 

[edward_george1]

That’s not at all what I’m saying.

What I’m saying is that people afflicted with OCD will make overly frequent use of confession in the interest of compulsive reassurance seeking, and so those for whom there is no possibility of confession can’t keep scratching that itch, so to speak. That doesn’t mean confession is bad or that members of non-sacramentally oriented faiths don’t have other things that they use in an attempt to gain reassurance. Just that it obviously can’t be confession.

I think I understand the disorder just fine, from coursework, experience, consulting with mental health professionals about how to do what I do, and of course, my own struggles with anxiety and the sometimes obsessive thought patterns that come with it.

 

[sealabeag]

There is a big difference between true scrupulosity and being spiritual aware/ sensitive. Unfortunately the two are often confused these days. Some of the saints went to confession every day. Were they scrupulous? Some today would say they were. I wouldn’t. I have had priests ask me in confession before if I was “scrupulous”, simply for trying to make a truly diligent confession. It can be such a patronising thing to say to someone, especially a young person, who is simply trying to grow in the faith as best they know how.
Nearly every day on this forum I see someone asking a sincere question only to be hit with the “You’re being scrupulous” response.
Scrupulosity is a real mental/spiritual illness and a real struggle for those who have to deal with it, but let’s not lose the meaning of it by over-application.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I’m having a hard time understanding why scrupulosity is such a bad thing. God makes some very clear and high demands and punishes severely, especially in the next life. Given this, I’ve begun to wonder if the scrupulous aren’t the more reasonable sorts of people given the stakes, probabilities, etc.

I take it you don’t suffer from it because then you’d know what kind of hellish mental condition it actually is.

Some saints including St. Alphone de Liguori and St. Therese of Lisieux had it and neither of them had anything good to say about it. It is a mental disorder and it does not help bring people closer to God; it gets in the way of spiritual growth and a healthy relationship with God.

To say it’s a good thing is like saying having obsessive-compulsive disorder is the right way to think. Scruples is spiritual OCD.

 

[CRV]

Scrupulosity is not always a manifestation of OCD. It can afflict temporarily those who convert to the faith or return to the Faith and who’ve forgotten everything. It stems from not having all the pieces of the puzzle regarding sin, how to apply it to their own circumstances/sin, or not being able to judge the gravity of the matter because they lack either the ability to judge, don’t understand the difference well etc.

For example in many examination of conscience pamphlets stealing is listed as a mortal sin. ( not all pamphlets state at the beginning the 3 necessary things). So a person reading that would assume correctly that all stealing is mortal sin, which we know isn’t the case. So theft of $10 to them means they’ve committed a mortal sin. Until they have the extra info ie grave matter explained to them, they cannot judge correctly and this leads to worry whether they’ve committed mortal sin or not.

Then there’s the aspect of it being impossible to sin by accident. All sin is deliberate. So a common example is one who genuinely forgot it was a day of abstinence and ate meat, only remembering afterwards that it was, which then based on their understanding that they have at that time, means they’ve committed a mortal sin. Because they lack the knowledge and understanding that forgetting it was a d.o.a. etc., means they did not choose to eat meat knowingly - therefore no sin committed.

Or using an earlier cited example of meat stuck between teeth - again all the person knows is they’ve swallowed meat on a day of abstinence. But because they don’t know this abstince refers to eating foods as in a snack or meal, they worry they’ve committed a mortal sin.

Then throw into the mix the intention of the person. Did they intend to eat meat? No, but they still did in their mind because they did swallow meat. So they have great difficulty in working out whether they sinned or not - Because they don’t have all the info, or the right understanding of things or how to reason it out. This leads to worry especially if they’re trying to work out if they need to go to confession first or if they can receive Communion. Because a sacrilegious communion is so abhorrent to them.

Having all the pieces of the puzzle (knowledge) greatly helps to reduce if not completely remove the fear and worry and anxiety that occurs in the above examples.

It isn’t always simply an anxiety issue nor just OCD wherein therapy or meds will make the scrupulosity go away.

Yet those of us who have this complete puzzle/understanding/facts/knowledge can sometimes be less than charitable or dismissive towards those who don’t and are seeking information and/or to understand matters - so then they can work it out for themselves.

 

[CRV]

Councelling/instruction either in confession or outside it by the person’s priest helps them to form their conscience correctly. In this case, not being a true case of OCD it is unhelpful and hurtful to assume the person has OCD and to bluntly tell them to get therapy.

A priest is the person for a Catholic to see regarding spiritual scrupulosity, and he is able to best advise them if they should also see a Dr etc as he’ll know whether it’s a lack of knowledge or understanding causing the problem or something else.

 

[Servant31]

As someone who struggled with scrupulosity at one point I would confirm this. One of the challenges is that you must rely on someone else to forgive. I see this as a blessing in a lot of ways. There is something very therapeutic about saying a sin out loud, taking responsibility, and letting it go. It’s an engagement of ownership. And an apology. It clears the decks and allows one to move forward.

However one of the challenges as a scrupulous (at one time) is the same point. There is the possibility that I’m not confessing appropriately (resolved usually through education and trusting in God). But there is also the occasion, (and I’m sorry to have to go here, but I think it matters for truth) that the priest either doesn’t adhere to catholic doctrine, or gives advice which isn’t appropriate. I have gotten some bad advice which goes clearly against doctrine, on pretty obvious things. As a scrupulous person your supposed to trust in your confessor, yet that’s challenging when the truth varies so much between confessors. The most challenging though is if I say a sin, sometimes a priest would want to argue (not often). This wasn’t on something really debatable. So I’m trying to be respectful, but still state the sin. This is really difficult on the penitent. I must say though a good priest, or even one who is just following the basics on doctrine, is such a huge help. No one needs to be perfect, hopefully they forgive me for not being either. In my life priests have such a pivotal element, it’s nearly impossible to overstate.

Sorry for the long post Fr. . I always appreciate your efforts on these forums.

Finally I’ve found that many people in the Catholic community at large don’t like to engage the truth when it comes to sin. In today’s world living out doctrine, and trying to discern truth is often filled with nuance. If I ask “what would you do here from a Catholic perspective “. I usually steel myself for 50% ad hominems and straw mans, some pretty cutting. As a Catholic community I think we need to do better at helping each other out.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Scrupulously is not always a manifestation of OCD. It can afflict temporarily those who convert to the faith or return to the Faith and who’ve forgotten everything.

This isn’t scrupulosity that you’re describing. It’s a genuine lack of knowledge or a need to better form their conscience.
A person who makes this sort of mistake will have it corrected (perhaps by their confessor) and be on their way with the new knowledge.

 

[CRV]

I beg to differ - it is scrupulosity when the lack of info or understanding or correct application thereof leads to a constant fear of having committed a mortal sin, of worrying/fearing that ‘everything’ is a mortal sin.

It is this genuine lack of knowledge/understanding that gives rise to one becoming scrupulous (constant fear and worry everything they think/say/do is a mortal sin), which once resolved by obtaining said knowledge/understanding removes the fear of that cause/situation of sin.

If a person has other manifestations of OCD in other areas of their life, then for that person it can be a subform of OCD.

But if a person has no issues etc of OCD affecting any other area of their life - only affecting their spiritual life aka whether something is a mortal sin or not - it is not always due to OCD.

I have 3 practicing friends who suffer from scrupulosity and it only affects their spiritual life, no other areas are they OCD in (2 of the 3 that is). The fear and anxiety because they don’t know or can’t work it out or aren’t sure is pure torture. One friend who is in their late 70s, a lifelong Catholic, got propped by a food containing beef gelatin. Now for us who do know, or who have access to the internet to find the correct factual answer or a priest to ask about this, it isn’t a problem. But for this friend who doesn’t have any of those it was a real issue and caused a lot of angst, until they could contact me to ask about it.

The above is just one example. It happens over and over again about so many different things, so many things said/not said, done/not done, - its ongoing as each new incident arises. They try to work it out but just get themselves further and further tied up in knots until they couldn’t reason their way out of a ‘paper bag’, all the while the stress of it builds up.

But yes, as you say, once they have that knowledge - they are then on their way. For one person it took 8yrs to get to the point where only occasionally does things give them angst.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Scrupulously is not always a manifestation of OCD. It can afflict temporarily those who convert to the faith or return to the Faith and who’ve forgotten everything. It stems from not having all the pieces of the puzzle regarding sin, how to apply it to their own circumstances/sin, or not being able to judge the gravity of the matter because they lack either the ability to judge, don’t understand the difference well etc.

Brilliantly put! I agree with every word you say. When someone is embarking upon the devout life, I can foresee that it could be much like when students start medical school — they begin to learn the nature of disease and illness, and could imagine that everything in the world is wrong with them because they have symptoms XYZ that are a sign of so many things.

I think it’s a bit facile just to make a blanket statement like “scrupulosity is religious OCD”. For some, there can be a little more to it than that.