Why is scrupulosity a bad thing?

[CRV]

Thank you @HomeschoolDad.

Yes, sometimes the more one reads (including here on CAF) isn’t right, or is not the whole picture and once a person realizes that every sin is offensive to God and we are supposed to also put in the effort to overcome with God’s grace venial sins, instead of the “it’s only a venial sin, right?” type of attitude - it is sure wake-up as to just what are sins indeed.

Some examination of consciences are more indepth than others. Whilst this can be helpful to those who are further along in their devout spiritual life, it can be an added stress for those who aren’t.

I think it’s a bit facile just to make a blanket statement like “scrupulosity is religious OCD”. For some, there can be a little more to it than that.

Agree wholeheartedly.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I’m not understanding the distinction. No one is saying that someone with scruples has to have OCD in other areas of life and many people with scruples don’t. You seem to be taking issue with the descriptive term.

Whatever one calls it, if someone is having years of anxiety and “torture” over minor matters, it’s disordered thinking and to me it’s a disorder, an illness. If your friend is a lifelong Catholic then one would think he would ask the priest at the church where he goes to Mass and not need the Internet to ask you. But I don’t see the point in arguing about it further. Suffice it to say scruples is a disorder and a person who thinks they have it needs to get help from their priest.

 

[RolandThompsonGunner]

“scrupulosity is religious OCD”.

It’s shorthand to help people grasp the basic idea. Imagine someone had never seen a zebra and asked you to describe it. If you said “well, it’s like a horse with vertical black and white stripes”, that may not be perfectly accurate, but it gets them 95% of the way there.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

HomeschoolDad:

“scrupulosity is religious OCD”.

It’s shorthand to help people grasp the basic idea. Imagine someone had never seen a zebra and asked you to describe it. If you said “well, it’s like a horse with vertical black and white stripes”, that may not be perfectly accurate, but it gets them 95% of the way there.

Then it might be more accurate to tell an uninformed person that “scrupulosity is like religious OCD”.

Actually, I’m amazed to hear that scrupulosity is any big deal in our times. In the modern world, people generally don’t think there is such a thing as personal sin anymore, much less eternal alienation from God for having committed it. Generally speaking, people think everybody is going to heaven, everybody aside from the likes of a Ted Bundy or Idi Amin is a “good person”, and the only “sins” are more at the social level, such as racism or homophobia. One important exception to this is the “saved or damned” stripe of fundamentalist Christian, but the way they see it, once you accept Jesus as your “Lord and personal Savior”, sin is no longer a problem, because all of your sins, past, present, and future are unconditionally forgiven without further action required on your part. If I believed that, I’d be “walking on sunshine” every moment of my life.

The people who find their way onto CAF are not a cross-section of the Catholic faithful in modern life. I have found that, typically, the average Catholic in the pew doesn’t see sin or the salvation of one’s soul as being that much of a problem — they listen to the modern world and don’t even imagine that their salvation, or anyone else’s, could possibly rest on tenterhooks.

 

[Canvas]

I’ve been diagnosed with OCD, what lead to the diagnosis was my scrupulosity that destroyed any sense of peace in me.
It started with me, trying to make really good confessions. Preparing for long time, writing down everything…

I am scrupulous myself, I have OCD and I felt your post very strongly. Stay strong.

For me, the preparation for confession is incredibly difficult. I too have “scripted” confessions so that I could make sure that I covered every detail. Then the doubtful sins—did I dream that, did I consent to sinful thought X?. The doubts, the anxiety, the difficulty of trying to figure out how to confess nebulous “sins”, or being dragged back 20 years and feeling compelled to confess sins x, y and z because I was not 100% sure they were properly confessed before…

There is nothing good about scrupulosity/OCD. Anyone who says otherwise does not understand. Whether it is manifesting itself in scruples, or in some other part of your life, it is pure torture.

 

[RolandThompsonGunner]

Then it might be more accurate to tell an uninformed person that “scrupulosity is like religious OCD”.

I get what you’re saying, but I think this is kind of hair splitting. Most people grasp that it’s a way to illustrate scrupulosity, not an actual psychiatric diagnosis or whatever.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

HomeschoolDad:

Then it might be more accurate to tell an uninformed person that “scrupulosity is like religious OCD”.

I get what you’re saying, but I think this is kind of hair splitting. Most people grasp that it’s a way to illustrate scrupulosity, not an actual psychiatric diagnosis or whatever.

I myself strongly dislike it when a certain stripe of person demands ultra-precise, hair-splitting definitions of things, I was just offering this as a more accurate way to describe it.

 

[CRV]

In the examples I gave, you’re right it is disordered thinking but due to a lack of knowledge/correct understanding and application which is the cause off the fear/worry and stress/anxiety. Not OCD. These types of scruples are not obsessive or compulsive, but still fear and anxiety driven until said knowledge/understanding is obtained.

It is the same because the situation/context always is different so there’s always a new scruples to deal with.

I do take issue in that it is said at times that scrupulosity is a subform of OCD - and that isn’t always the case.

There are reasons concerning my friend and where he attends Mass, which now causes him to ask me sometimes various questions e.g. beef gelatin - all of which I’m not prepared to explain on a public board.

Suffice it to say scruples is a disorder and a person who thinks they have it needs to get help from their priest.

Agreed.

 

[CRV]

Actually, I’m amazed to hear that scrupulosity is any big deal in our times. In the modern world, people generally don’t think there is such a thing as personal sin anymore, much less eternal alienation from God for having committed it. Generally speaking, people think everybody is going to heaven, everybody aside from the likes of a Ted Bundy or Idi Amin is a “good person”, and the only “sins” are more at the social level, such as racism or homophobia. One important exception to this is the “saved or damned” stripe of fundamentalist Christian, but the way they see it, once you accept Jesus as your “Lord and personal Savior”, sin is no longer a problem, because all of your sins, past, present, and future are unconditionally forgiven without further action required on your part. If I believed that , I’d be “walking on sunshine” every moment of my life.

The people who find their way onto CAF are not a cross-section of the Catholic faithful in modern life. I have found that, typically, the average Catholic in the pew doesn’t see sin or the salvation of one’s soul as being that much of a problem — they listen to the modern world and don’t even imagine that their salvation, or anyone else’s, could possibly rest on tenterhooks.

You hit the nail on the head here

 

[C.Ray]

Scrupulously is a mental illness.

Deacon,

I frequently hear from novice Catholics that scrupulosity is a problem for them. I’ve never once heard of it outside a Catholic context, however. Sure, I’ve heard of OCD well enough, but not too many Presbyterians or Baptists seems to wrestle with scrupulosity.

Do you think scrupulosity a particularly Catholic problem?

 

[CRV]

For me, the preparation for confession is incredibly difficult. I too have “scripted” confessions so that I could make sure that I covered every detail. Then the doubtful sins—did I dream that, did I consent to sinful thought X?. The doubts, the anxiety, the difficulty of trying to figure out how to confess nebulous “sins”, or being dragged back 20 years and feeling compelled to confess sins x, y and z because I was not 100% sure they were properly confessed before…

You’ve described a large part of it well. May God free you from this trial.

 

[esieffe]

I understand what you are trying to say. “What harm is there in being overcautious.” I don’t think there is any harm in being cautious, and to some the line seems thin between the two, but there are some things to remember.

Christ has asked us to put his trust in him. This isn’t always easy, but in the new testament Mat: 8:26 Christ was asleep and a storm came. “You have little faith, why are you so afraid?” He rebuked the wind and the waves were calm.

As my confessor frequently says, God knows us better than we know ourselves. Being worried by the fine print suggest we do not trust Christ. Extreme scrupulosity wanders into self torment.

I suggest you check out the ten commandments for the scrupulous. Just in case!
https://catholic-restoration.com/2017/01/06/the-ten-commandments-for-the-scrupulous/

 

[Peeps]

Just curious how would scrupulosity manifest itself among Protestants and other religions. Perhaps in insisting to sit in the same pew each week? Otherwise, I am a bit hard-pressed to think of any religious examples.

One example that I can think of happens in Evangelical Protestant denominations/churches.

As you probably know, in these churches, individuals are encouraged to “accept Jesus into their heart as their Personal Savior.” Often the individuals are encouraged to do this in public, at a worship service, during the part of the service called “the invitation.” People are encouraged and urged to step out of their seats and come forward (or “down the aisle”), where counselors will be waiting to pray with them and help them to accept Jesus into their hearts.

What I have seen is people coming forward many many times to “accept Jesus into their heart” because they are convinced that they didn’t really mean it before, but NOW they do!

One of my friends told me (when we were in middle school) that she had accepted Jesus into her heart 17 times! (In case you’re wondering, we’re still friends, and she is a very faithful Christian.)

And then there are the people who keep going forward to confess a besetting sin (often an addiction like alcohol, cigarettes, porn, drugs, overeating, etc.)–they think that if they just “give it to Jesus,” He will take it away. I think this happens less now than it used to when I was younger, because there is a better understanding of addictions and the need to treat them as a “pathology” rather than a “sin”. There are effective treatments for addictions that involve religious repentance and reliance upon God–but also various behavior modifications and disciplines such as attending daily meetings (sometimes more than once a day), having a sponsor, etc.

Just a few examples from my personal experience in the Protestant churches and fellowships.

 

[Tommy999]

What I have seen is people coming forward many many times to “accept Jesus into their heart” because they are convinced that they didn’t really mean it before, but NOW they do!

Good example. I had forgotten that one. I belong to a church that doesn’t emphasize the “altar call” experience per se, but I realize that some denominations emphasize it a lot.

 

[CRV]

The following are excerpts from Moral Theology Fr. Heribet Jone:
"The scrupulous conscience, prompted by purely imaginary reasons, it’s in constant dread of sin where there is none, or of mortal sin where there is only venial sin. The basic factor in a scrupulous conscience is not so much error as fear. … …

The following are symptoms of a scrupulous conscience: examination of conscience over petty, often ridiculous matters, restless rumination, scrutinizing all possible circumstances that accompanied an action or could have done so, frequent change of judgement, indecision, fear of possible sin in all things, … …"

Also in the book called "Understanding Scrupulosity " by Fr T. M. Santa there is a question asked as to what really is scrupulosity and is it a mental or emotional illness?

The reply -
Many years ago my moral theology professor, Fr Hugh O’Connell, answered a similar question in this way:
" Scrupulosity May be defined as a habitual state of mind that, because of an unreasonable fear of sin, inclines a person to judge certain thoughts or actions sinful when they aren’t, or that they’re more gravely wrong than they really are. … … Scrupulosity involves an emotional condition that interferes with the proper working of the mind and produces a judgement not in accordance with objective truth, but with the emotion of fear." Father Kaler, C.Ss.R.

 

[Dan_Defender]

This thread reminds me of when St Paul said: ‘For why should my liberty be determined by another man’s scruples?’

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Diaconia:

Scrupulously is a mental illness.

Deacon,

I frequently hear from novice Catholics that scrupulosity is a problem for them. I’ve never once heard of it outside a Catholic context, however. Sure, I’ve heard of OCD well enough, but not too many Presbyterians or Baptists seems to wrestle with scrupulosity.

Do you think scrupulosity a particularly Catholic problem?

I hope the good deacon will not object to my “jumping in” here, but just my opinion, yes, I do think scrupulosity is a “particularly Catholic problem”.

Here’s how it breaks out: the faithful Catholic realizes that, until he draws his last breath, there is always the possibility that he could lose his soul. There is no such thing as “blessed assurance”, and we have a whole litany of counter-cultural, human nature-inclining things, most of them sexual ones, that could easily pull the average soul “over the edge” if they didn’t have their guard up at all times. The Catholic life requires discipline and mastery of self. For Catholics, sin is indeed “really real”.

I’ve found that, at least among evangelicals, sin is more something that has either been broken with and repudiated, or that it is “covered” in such a way that “it’s not really real”. I’m not sure that Protestants and evangelicals have that much of a concept of a “besetting sin” that has to be beaten down and vanquished, with God’s grace, time and time again. There is also a huge streak within the Protestant/evangelical community of “social respectability” and being a “fine, upstanding member of society”. This is the Freemasons’ stock in trade.

I won’t even attempt to parse the Orthodox view of personal sin, though I have to think it is more along the lines of the traditional Catholic view.

 

[Psalm30]

Well, because of covid-19 some might think I am OCD about washing my hands multiple times a day and using hand sanitizer so much. I am following the guidelines and there are some days my hands are red and bleeding and dry from so much washing. I am looking out after my health by listening to the experts
who are advising about the hand washing and sanitizer.

OCD/Scrupulosity sufferer here. I usually don’t take offense to comments like this, but I do feel the need to say something in response to what you’ve posted here.

People throw the term OCD around lightly. “I’m OCD because I like my desk a certain way.” “I’m so OCD because I dust the house every day!” “My toddler is OCD because he has to read eight bedtime stories in the same order every night or he won’t go to sleep!”

None of those things are OCD. And the situation you describe about washing your hands during the COVID crisis is not OCD. Calling any of the above things OCD is like saying you have skin cancer because you have one tiny freckle on your body.

OCD is truly a cross, and it is a cross that many people don’t understand. They think it’s not real, it’s all “in your head,” and that people who suffer from it can just snap out of it or will it away with willpower. But it is a real disease, and it’s a very painful thing to live with. And invalidation from others only adds to the pain. You can’t snap out of it or just will it away. Believe me, if we could…we would.

 

[_AnnoDomini]

I have OCD that manifests itself in the form of scrupulosity, and I was raised Protestant (I plan on converting to the Catholic faith as soon as I have the means to do so ). I think that my OCD was worse before I decided to convert, actually! Because Protestant ideas are so unstructured and varied, many people in Protestant communities either have differing views on what “truth” is or they just don’t care one way or the other, believing that their emotions will lead them to the truth. Because there was no precedent set for what is right and what is wrong besides the obvious (don’t murder, don’t worship idols, etc.), I had a difficult time determining what the right answers were to the religious questions I had at the time. That’s partly what led me to convert-- the Catholic Church is more structured.

 

[7_Sorrows]

Yes, you shouldn’t be so sensitive. I wasn’t throwing OCD around. I don’t have OCD, but suffer from other afflictions like severe anxiety and depression.

I. was just commenting how during the pandemic I wash my hands so many times
throughout the day and use my hand sanitizer when soap and water were not
available. Before the covid-19 I rarely used hand sanitizer. So I am probably paranoid now about the virus, but all the personal hygiene did not prevent me getting sick (not covid-19) so I am wondering if all the hand washing and hand
sanitizing really helps.