Why Is Sexual Orientation Anyone's Business?

[BOProof]

You talk about “deciding to lie” as if it is a decision without any moral implications. But many people feel awful about lying, and the morality of lying in such a case is unclear.

Without making this a discussion about the morality of deceit, what’s relevant is that it is sometimes morally acceptable or even obligatory to deceive. Almost always, being in the closet requires a certain amount of deceit, which I would generally categorize in the morally acceptable category of deceit.

Being faced directly about whether or not you are gay just makes the decision whether to remain deceitful (not necessarily a moral wrong) or to be genuine more explicit. Sometimes, if one does not face this decision directly, one can remain in a dark, uncomfortable, and deceitful closet for a while Asking the question can accelerate their breaking free from the closet and living a happier, more genuine life (even if they initially lie when answering the question).

Yes, there may be cases where two people are so close that such a question is appropriate. But I think people often think they’re close, when they’re not. So, once again, I think we should tread very lightly on this one.

In general, it’s best to be a bit conservative when you might be stepping over a boundary.

 

[BOProof]

It’s rude to ask, and it’s excessive personal information to simply volunteer that or any other sexual proclivity to someone else without very good reason.

Would it be “excessive personal information” to have a picture of you and your wife at the workplace, wear a wedding ring, mention your wife, introduce your wife to others as your wife, mention your wedding, invite others to your wedding, etc?

I ask this because things like these are ways that people broadcast the fact that they are interested in the opposite sex that are almost always considered acceptable. However, when homosexuality comes up, many people start applying double standards and accuse same-sex couples of flaunting their sexuality or of volunteering excessive personal information.

EDIT: Once I heard a guy giving a talk about homosexuality and how double standards are applied to the openness about one’s sexuality. He said his mother once told him, “I just cannot understand why you need to be so open about your sexuality, your father and I are not open about our sexuality.” If you don’t see the irony, read it again.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Would it be “excessive personal information” to have a picture of you and your wife at the workplace, wear a wedding ring, mention your wife, introduce your wife to others as your wife, mention your wedding, invite others to your wedding, etc?

I ask this because things like these are ways that people broadcast the fact that they are interested in the opposite sex that are almost always considered acceptable. However, when homosexuality comes up, many people start applying double standards and accuse same-sex couples of flaunting their sexuality or of volunteering excessive personal information.

EDIT: Once I heard a guy giving a talk about homosexuality and how double standards are applied to the openness about one’s sexuality. He said his mother once told him, “I just cannot understand why you need to be so open about your sexuality, your father and I are not open about our sexuality.” If you don’t see the irony, read it again.

That is not quite a fair comparison. marriage is not only a holy sacrament, but it is also the natural order. As is procreation. There is no double standard. People can talk about marriage or wear a ring because that is correct human behavior. Homosexuals cannot do these things strictly because they are counter-cultural, if not counter-natural. When a woman is pregnant, she is not flaunting her sexuality. When a homosexual couple wear rainbow sashes and have gay paraphernalia around, that is meant to give a message, a statement, that is offensive to humanity. When two men have wedding rings and a mock “ceremony” it is not innocent. It is saying, I take your sacred beliefs and turn them into sodomy.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Thank you. I am indeed discerning the priesthood – I actually just visited the seminary and really think God might be calling me there. As long as I keep getting good grades and score well on the ACTs, pass the psychological evaluation, and impress the Bishop during our three interviews, I’ll be going to the seminary. It’ll be a cakewalk, really.

I always pray for those discerning. And it sounds like you also are quite close with a spiritual director. Which is very good. I discerned as well. Just a note of caution. There will be at least one more time when people will ask about your sexual orientation and even more personal things. And that is when you enter the seminary. Just a heads up that you will be asked again. And this time, you will have to answer. However, the bright side is when you are a priest, people will not pester you about it anymore.

Sadly there is a trade off. People may not approach you face to face, but you will deal with an entire culture that the only thing it is permissible to do is make fun of Catholics, especially priests. Just turn on the TV and watch comedians, shows, and even journalists assume that not only is a priest Gay, but worse.

It is the persecution we live with. It is why my family prays for priests. And it is one that while is grotesque, is one some in the Church have brought to our doorstep.

 

[Geist]

I was mocked for being gay in high school. Of course this determination of my sexuality was based on my shy bookish nature and lack of false locker room boasting about girls and I’m not gay to begin with, but it was offensive all the same. Eventually you learn to tune it out, people can be rude and ignorant and unfortunately they tend to be both.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Yes, if one is either of those things they tend to be the other.
Rude and ignorant seem to go with loud as well.

 

[BOProof]

marriage is not only a holy sacrament, but it is also the natural order. As is procreation. There is no double standard. People can talk about marriage or wear a ring because that is correct human behavior.

So you’re OK with an opposite-sex couple openly broadcasting their relationship by things such as a picture of you and your wife/husband, wearing a wedding ring, mentioning your wife/husband/wedding. However, you are NOT ok with a same-sex couple doing the exact same thing.

That is a double-standard. You just excuse the double standard because you don’t consider same-sex sex to be “correct human behavior.” Presumably, you wouldn’t say the same thing about other sexual relationships you don’t consider to be “correct human behavior” such as second marriages, couple living together out of wedlock, etc.

When two men have wedding rings and a mock “ceremony” it is not innocent. It is saying, I take your sacred beliefs and turn them into sodomy.

I’m sure many people who opposed interracial marriages felt the same way. Their sacred beliefs about interracial marriage was wrong though.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

So you’re OK with an opposite-sex couple openly broadcasting their relationship by things such as a picture of you and your wife/husband, wearing a wedding ring, mentioning your wife/husband/wedding. However, you are NOT ok with a same-sex couple doing the exact same thing.

That is a double-standard. You just excuse the double standard because you don’t consider same-sex sex to be “correct human behavior.” Presumably, you wouldn’t say the same thing about other sexual relationships you don’t consider to be “correct human behavior” such as second marriages, couple living together out of wedlock, etc.

I’m sure many people who opposed interracial marriages felt the same way. Their sacred beliefs about interracial marriage was wrong though.

While some of the things you mentioned would not always be considered correct human behavior at least they are within the natural order. Homosexuality is disordered.
There is no double standard.
Your interracial argument is a red herring.
If you wish to start a thread on the legitimacy of same sex marriage to Catholics on a Catholic forum go right ahead.
But there are plenty already that have discussed the issue.

 

[PPeterson]

if there were no boorish people who ask inappropriately personal questions, the Catholic Answers Forum would be deprived of an important source for the popular pastime of sharing personal stories of taking offense.

 

[BOProof]

Homosexuality is disordered.
There is no double standard.

In other words, you’re OK with opposite-sex couples broadcasting their relationship in certain ways (couple photos, mentioning spouse/boyfriend/girlfried), but not OK with a same-sex couple doing the exact same thing. However, you presumably don’t take the same approach to other relationships that you consider immoral though (e.g., second marriages). That is a double-standard.

You fail to acknowledge it’s a double standard because you think it’s “disordered”.

If you wish to start a thread on the legitimacy of same sex marriage to Catholics on a Catholic forum go right ahead.

You brought up the legitimacy of same-sex marriage, I’m pointing out that you’re applying a different standard to same-sex couples than you are to other couples in relationships you disapprove of (couple out of wedlock, someone re-married, etc.).

As long as you’re going to say that all those other couples in what you’d consider to be immoral sexual relationships cannot broadcast their relationship in the same way (wedding ring, photos, discussion about their partner, etc.) that is a blatant double-standard even if you deny the legitimacy of same-sex marriage.

 

[SuperLuigi]

I’m sure many people who opposed interracial marriages felt the same way. Their sacred beliefs about interracial marriage was wrong though.

On economic and genetic grounds, yes.

But race is not a factor in fecundity.

 

[BOProof]

On economic and genetic grounds, yes.

But race is not a factor in fecundity.

So is fecundity relevant to whether it’s OK to be open about your relationship status?

I’ve always considered fecundity (as well as sexual health in general) to be one of those things that is almost never other people’s business.

 

[EasterJoy]

Thank you so very much. I’ve been thinking along the same lines as you: That there are so many worse things I could be or do than be homosexual. I’d rather be a faithful and orthodox Catholic who is homosexual than a straight meth addicted alcoholic with a gambling addiction, for instance. Incidentally, what she thinks doesn’t hurt me too much because I’ve never been a momma’s boy. Well, I am – to Mary. And no matter what my biological mother thinks, I know that Mary will love me and care for me no matter my sexual orientation.

I’ve heard my kids talk about being gay as if it were something to be laughed at, and I took them to task about it: How would you feel if that were you? Do think that is easy? It’s a rare guy who is homosexual or effeminate who asks for that. They don’t need “good Christians” making life harder on them. They need friends. I explained that if they have a friend with those issues, he needs someone decent he can talk to, not more people to hide his problem from. Somebody who jokes about their problem as if it were something to make fun of is not going to be that decent guy.

The same goes for addicts and alcoholics, honestly. I’ve warned my boys that good people become addicts, good people become alcoholics, people no one thought could ever do that, it can ruin their character and make them into liars. There but for the grace of God…they don’t need to be judged. They need help to beat their problems. That is what good Christians do for them. Either help them tp beat their problems, or else get out of their way. That, and realize that good people who get these problems can become liars and even thieves and criminals, even people who were straight-A students and all the rest. Don’t be naïve.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

In other words, you’re OK with opposite-sex couples broadcasting their relationship in certain ways (couple photos, mentioning spouse/boyfriend/girlfried), but not OK with a same-sex couple doing the exact same thing. However, you presumably don’t take the same approach to other relationships that you consider immoral though (e.g., second marriages). That is a double-standard.

You fail to acknowledge it’s a double standard because you think it’s “disordered”.

You brought up the legitimacy of same-sex marriage, I’m pointing out that you’re applying a different standard to same-sex couples than you are to other couples in relationships you disapprove of (couple out of wedlock, someone re-married, etc.).

As long as you’re going to say that all those other couples in what you’d consider to be immoral sexual relationships cannot broadcast their relationship in the same way (wedding ring, photos, discussion about their partner, etc.) that is a blatant double-standard even if you deny the legitimacy of same-sex marriage.

You are all over the map.
But no, I do not apply a different standard. If someone broadcasts that they fornicate, masturbate or adulterate I would have the same response.
There is a reason that there is no adulteration pride parade. It is because it is a unnatural unholy thing. As is homosexual marriage. So, relax, there is no double standard. But do you have anything to offer on the topic of the thread. Or could you start a new thread and we can continue this somewhere else.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I’ve heard my kids talk about being gay as if it were something to be laughed at, and I took them to task about it: How would you feel if that were you? Do think that is easy? It’s a rare guy who is homosexual or effeminate who asks for that. They don’t need “good Christians” making life harder on them. They need friends. I explained that if they have a friend with those issues, he needs someone decent he can talk to, not more people to hide his problem from. Somebody who jokes about their problem as if it were something to make fun of is not going to be that decent guy.

The same goes for addicts and alcoholics, honestly. I’ve warned my boys that good people become addicts, good people become alcoholics, people no one thought could ever do that, it can ruin their character and make them into liars. There but for the grace of God…they don’t need to be judged. They need help to beat their problems. That is what good Christians do for them. Either help them tp beat their problems, or else get out of their way. That, and realize that good people who get these problems can become liars and even thieves and criminals, even people who were straight-A students and all the rest. Don’t be naïve.

Teaching children to have compassion, respect and love for fellow man can never be a bad thing. I hate it when people say “that’s gay.”
We must balance the Truth with Love. The two go hand in hand. And one cannot be righteous without the other.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Without making this a discussion about the morality of deceit, what’s relevant is that it is sometimes morally acceptable or even obligatory to deceive. Almost always, being in the closet requires a certain amount of deceit, which I would generally categorize in the morally acceptable category of deceit.

I don’t think that this is deceit, I think it’s protectiveness. You don’t tell people intimate details about yourself unless you are comfortable with them. So there’s often no lying or deceiving going on – if people choose to assume a person is straight, then that’s their problem.

Being faced directly about whether or not you are gay just makes the decision whether to remain deceitful (not necessarily a moral wrong) or to be genuine more explicit. Sometimes, if one does not face this decision directly, one can remain in a dark, uncomfortable, and deceitful closet for a while Asking the question can accelerate their breaking free from the closet and living a happier, more genuine life (even if they initially lie when answering the question).

If one of my brothers or my mom had asked me, point blank, if I was gay, I think I would have hid even deeper in my shell, and been terribly ashamed of lying. And I have a very kind and loving family. (FYI, I’m not gay, but I am attracted to both sexes.) Eventually, I came around to a place where I can be more open. But I think being badgered about it would have made the process harder, not easier.

I could be wrong, I suppose. I will say that we should ALWAYS tell people we are close to that they can tell us anything, and we won’t judge them. That leaves the avenue for intimacy and honesty open.

 

[BOProof]

If I seem all over the place, it’s because I operating under the assumption that you weren’t opposed to people in opposite-sex relationships you don’t approve of them broadcasting their relationship by doing things such as:

Having a photo of them and their significant other on display
Wearing a wedding ring
Mentioning their significant other or wedding

People hardly ever throw a fit over these and a few other things, whether it’s a re-marriage after divorce or a sexual union outside of wedlock. But if the couple is a same-sex couple, many people start complaining about them being overly open about their sexuality and say they are flaunting it. THAT is the double-standard I keep referring to, which is my primary contribution to this thread.

However, I interpret your latest post as you saying that you think those who re-marry or fornicate shouldn’t do anything in the above list:

If someone broadcasts that they fornicate, masturbate or adulterate I would have the same response.

 

[EasterJoy]

I don’t think that this is deceit, I think it’s protectiveness. You don’t tell people intimate details about yourself unless you are comfortable with them. So there’s often no lying or deceiving going on – if people choose to assume a person is straight, then that’s their problem.

If one of my brothers or my mom had asked me, point blank, if I was gay, I think I would have hid even deeper in my shell, and been terribly ashamed of lying. And I have a very kind and loving family. (FYI, I’m not gay, but I am attracted to both sexes.) Eventually, I came around to a place where I can be more open. But I think being badgered about it would have made the process harder, not easier.

I could be wrong, I suppose. I will say that we should ALWAYS tell people we are close to that they can tell us anything, and we won’t judge them. That leaves the avenue for intimacy and honesty open.

Yes–to keep your privacy is not lying, because it is no lie to conceal a fact from someone who has no business learning it. If you are contemplating marriage and you are homosexual or bisexual, of course you have to tell your prospective spouse. To conceal a fact so central to the whole business of marriage from the person you would marry is a lie. Most other people have no business even asking. If they draw conclusions they had no right to draw, that isn’t your problem.

Some people love us but are poor prospects for sharing our deep intimate secrets. Not everyone knows how to handle problems that don’t have an easy answer. Not everyone knows how to keep a confidence. More to the point, not everyone who loves you and learns you have a problem can restrain themselves from trying to “fix” it for you. So while I agree that we ought to tell people they can disclose things to us if we have the capacity, we have to be a little bit careful. Don’t say “jump, I’ll catch you” unless you know you can be trusted to catch the person instead of luring him or her into a disaster for both of you.

 

[EasterJoy]

So you’re OK with an opposite-sex couple openly broadcasting their relationship by things such as a picture of you and your wife/husband, wearing a wedding ring, mentioning your wife/husband/wedding. However, you are NOT ok with a same-sex couple doing the exact same thing.

That is a double-standard. You just excuse the double standard because you don’t consider same-sex sex to be “correct human behavior.” Presumably, you wouldn’t say the same thing about other sexual relationships you don’t consider to be “correct human behavior” such as second marriages, couple living together out of wedlock, etc.

I’m sure many people who opposed interracial marriages felt the same way. Their sacred beliefs about interracial marriage was wrong though.

Do remember that you are on a Catholic site. We don’t consider the elements of marriage a matter for debate. We don’t consider “correct human behavior” to be something that follows popular sentiment. As for interracial marriage, there are Christians who have opposed it, but the Church has never forbidden it.

 

[BOProof]

I don’t think that this is deceit, I think it’s protectiveness.

Deceit and protectiveness aren’t mutually exclusive; In fact, protectiveness is usually a motive for deceit.

You don’t tell people intimate details about yourself unless you are comfortable with them. So there’s often no lying or deceiving going on – if people choose to assume a person is straight, then that’s their problem.

That’s generally true, but due in part to the assumption that most people have that people are straight, not coming out to certain friends/family as gay over time can require a certain amount of pretending to be straight.

For example, people commonly complain that their gay friend acted and sounded more “gay” after coming out. They often attribute this to him/her conforming to a gay stereotype, when reality is the opposite. Usually what’s really going on in cases like those is that the “gay” acting is just what is natural for that person’s personality, but he/she avoided doing what’s natural for him/her in order to avoid arousing the suspicion of others. When such a person is freed from that kind of deceit, they can begin to be themselves around others.

If one of my brothers or my mom had asked me, point blank, if I was gay, I think I would have hid even deeper in my shell, and been terribly ashamed of lying. And I have a very kind and loving family. (FYI, I’m not gay, but I am attracted to both sexes.) Eventually, I came around to a place where I can be more open. But I think being badgered about it would have made the process harder, not easier.

I too have a generally loving family.

I have, under very shameful circumstance and in a very inappropriate way, been asked point blank by my mother. Although I lied and was very ashamed at the time, but in the long run it was probably better that I be asked in that way than not be asked at all.

As inappropriate as the question was, it permitted me to begin the process of being honest with myself, that is, admit that “gay” is a label that applies to me (something that had not even crossed my mind before, even though I was 18 and never interested in girls, and obviously attracted to guy). Such self-honesty is required before being honest with family (which followed) and friends.

At times, such honesty can be needed in order to improve one’s well-being (even if you think that your sexuality should be repressed because homosexuality is a sin). It is in the interest of family members to care about the well-being of other family members, which is why one’s sexuality can (with many limitations of course) legitimately be a matter of concern for family members.

This last point was my main reason for posting in this thread.