Why is socialism bad by Church teaching?

[luvzminis]

That is just anti-Mao propaganda. The Great Leap Forward which allegedly was the cause of 30 million deaths was not due to Chairman Mao’s malice, but can be attributed to bad weather, implementation flaws, and a US embargo.

Do you think the Kuomintang was any nicer and merciful than Mao Zedong?

I’m afraid your belief on this is just wishful thinking and putting your faith in your sources. With all due respect, this is precisely why our country is losing its freedom. There are sources which choose to deceive us and not give us all the facts. At least the majority of us posting on the CA forums trust the Church as THE authentic source, just as Christ wills.

 

[Black_Rose]

I’m afraid your belief on this is just wishful thinking and putting your faith in your sources. With all due respect, this is precisely why our country is losing its freedom. There are sources which choose to deceive us and not give us all the facts. At least the majority of us posting on the CA forums trust the Church as THE authentic source, just as Christ wills.

Here are two accessible, balanced resources on Mao:
henryckliu.com/page116.html
chinastudygroup.net/2009/10/was-mao-really-a-monster/

Could you define “freedom” for me? Could you tell my why is it “good” and politically worth defending? Could you tell me whether “freedom” is a unique feature of the United States or other countries also have “freedom”.

You probably mean “liberty” instead of “freedom”.

I posted this earlier:

I am not going to yield any concessions to conservatives by adopting their definitions for certain words such as “freedom” or “tyranny”, which gives them the rhetorical edge. I do not see why the concept of “freedom”, defined by conservatives, is of significant value. Perhaps, I would value it if it included “freedom from want” as defined by Franklin Delano Roosevelt in his “Four Freedoms” speech. But I find the conservative usage of the word “freedom” an exercise in rhetorical dishonesty and deception because the exploits the fact that the word generally has a positive connotation but lacks a rigorous definition that is universally accepted. Since “freedom” can adopt multiple definitions that profoundly differ, it just becomes a blunt, rhetorical instrument because it describes many things, and thus lacks any precision because its definition is not restrictive because it is too inclusive.

At least Friedrich von Hayek lucidly delineated the differences between “freedom” and “liberty” in his Constitution of Liberty to avoid any potential for misinterpretation and confusion. He explicitly defined “liberty” merely as the non-interference in human affairs or the absence of coercion. He also states that it does not guarantee any positive outcomes or grant one with any degree of control over one’s circumstances. In this case, liberty is just a principle for human conduct, not an affirmation of the desirability of any state of reality nor any ethical mandate or compulsion to render such states into reality. Although von Hayek’s conception of liberty is inherently passive and would presumably tolerate many sins of omission, he argues that societies that embrace the principle of liberty, by adopting and nurturing a market economy, would be conducive to prosperity and innovation in the long run because it supposedly allocates resources more efficiently and allows inventive people to pursue and profit from their ideas.

As for me, I value my health, financial security, and living in a peaceful, friendly environment more than “freedom”.

 

[Cruxis117]

Nowhere does Christ require mankind to give up all their possessions either to be good followers or to be able to enter heaven. If all were poor, how could anyone be helped? Face reality.
It is a dream to feel that Christ was a “socialist”, just what His Church condemns.

Get the facts and face reality.
No economic laws encourage “hoarding of wealth” and greed – some PEOPLE hoard wealth, some people are greedy. No wealth can be created until it is produced – that’s why the Late Scholastic system works so well to enable everyone to produce some wealth and to do with it as they choose through free-will. Economic laws are based on the principles of human action – of cause and effect involving God-given reason.

In Caritas in Veritate (2009), Pope Benedict XVI writes: “The Church has always held that economic action is not to be regarded as something opposed to society.” Further: “Society does not have to protect itself from the market, as if the development of the latter were ipso facto to entail the death of authentically human relations.” (#36).
There is no mention of greed or of capitalism.

To pontificate that “capitalism is evil” is to show a complete lack of knowledge and total disregard for true laws of economics, and to attack Christ’s Church which developed and acknowledges these laws.

When you can separate greedy people from the free enterprise system you will have begun to appreciate the laws as used by good, honest, thrifty people, who work with all others to produce wealth which is shared and available for charitable and other productive uses.

Again, when Jesus met the rich young man, he asks him to give all of his possessions to follow him. Or did you forget that form of scripture.
Furthermore, no one is saying that commerce or trade is evil. It’s when you have Capitalism, which is on the far right of the economic scale, in the same place where Fascism is on the Political Spectrum, problems arise.

Christ’s Church never developed or acknowledged such things, I do not have a single iota of thought of how you ever found that.

 

[athair_siochain]

Nowhere does Christ require mankind to give up all their possessions either to be good followers or to be able to enter heaven. If all were poor, how could anyone be helped? Face reality.
It is a dream to feel that Christ was a “socialist”, just what His Church condemns.

Get the facts and face reality.
No economic laws encourage “hoarding of wealth” and greed – some PEOPLE hoard wealth, some people are greedy. No wealth can be created until it is produced – that’s why the Late Scholastic system works so well to enable everyone to produce some wealth and to do with it as they choose through free-will. Economic laws are based on the principles of human action – of cause and effect involving God-given reason.

In Caritas in Veritate (2009), Pope Benedict XVI writes: “The Church has always held that economic action is not to be regarded as something opposed to society.” Further: “Society does not have to protect itself from the market, as if the development of the latter were ipso facto to entail the death of authentically human relations.” (#36).
There is no mention of greed or of capitalism.

To pontificate that “capitalism is evil” is to show a complete lack of knowledge and total disregard for true laws of economics, and to attack Christ’s Church which developed and acknowledges these laws.

When you can separate greedy people from the free enterprise system you will have begun to appreciate the laws as used by good, honest, thrifty people, who work with all others to produce wealth which is shared and available for charitable and other productive uses.

I totally disagree with you, I have spent 15yrs studying Greed ,Economics, and the financial Markets,
The reason we have poor (not filthy rich ). is because the greedy are taking the greatest share .

I notice you have made no comment on equity, how it is invented by the rich, the poor cant invent equity,

The creation of equity is a greed thing, a legalistic way to put ones hand in another’s pocket and take without asking,

A landlord or moneylender never ask, . " Can I put the rent up? " it is a greedy mind that says take more than you need, rich people who make donations to charity claim the donation back from the Tax Office so it is the poor working taxpayer who is donating to the charity,

When I hear or see people from within the church supporting blind greed, I remember Christ last words … " Forgive them father they know not what they do" so they cant be blamed.

 

[athair_siochain]

False – The world is in crisis in every respect, partly because of what passes all too often for “Catholic” education.
Learn from the great Fr John Corapi and the Late Scholastic theologians who developed the laws of economics; no faithful Catholic may reject the condemnation of socialism declared uninterruptedly from the earliest social teaching.

St Augustine taught that wickedness was not inherent in commerce, that price was a function not simply of the seller’s costs, but also of the buyer’s wants, and it was up to the individual to live righteously. Politics I, 1254]. Thus he gave legitimacy to merchants, and to the deep involvement of the Church in the birth of free enterprise. [Stephen P Bensch, *Historiography: Medieval European and Mediterranean Slavery

1998, p 231; Cf. Victory of Reason, Rodney Stark, Random House, 2005, p 57,58, 254].

Randall Collins has noted that innovation and specialization in the monastic estates was “a version of the developed characteristics of capitalism itself… the dynamism of the medieval economy was primarily that of the Church.” [Randall Collins, *The Sociology of Philosophies: A Global Theory of Intellectual Change, 1998, Cambridge: Harvard University Press, p 47].

The reader might notice that the life expectancy of people in the West has taken tremendous leaps since the 1800s. Why? Because in the West the free market system has discovered ways to create wealth. Much of that created wealth goes into the paychecks of households and is spent on medical care. But where did the medical care come from? It comes from the fact that some people and the “evil” corporations take their discretionary income and save it. This money is then used to develop diagnostic medical equipment, medicines, and surgical equipment, and support medical schools which train practitioners who are able to use these great things for the health of every patient. This is apart from the huge increases in living standards from the poverty before free enterprise was developed.
See Dr William Luckey (*Back To Nature September 25, 2009):
[drwilliamluckey.com/index.cfm/Economics-Errors]

The Medieval Schoolmen who preferred to be called the “Doctors”, “were the foremost thinkers of their times.” (Christians For Freedom, Ignatius 1986, p 21). They employed logic and reasoning for the development of mankind. Chafuen incisively points out: “The Doctors offered utilitarian arguments to show that goods that are privately owned are better used than commonly owned goods. This explanation offers a budding theory of economic development: the division of goods and their ultimate possession by private individuals facilitates increased production.”

Pope John Paul II acclaimed the free economy that recognises the “fundamental role” of private property and the freedom of mankind to economic creativity, as “the path to true civil and economic progress” within “the fundamental and positive role of business, the market”… “and the resulting responsibility for the means of production.” Centesimus Annus #42, 1991].

So it is time to face reality. Are you going to cast the first stone against the Catholic Church?

Goods better used by the rich.

So why is the Catholic Church different, should it be in private hands. who is going to cast the last stone, I often wonder if the Bible was edited , many of the stories told by Christ left out. to protect the Capitalist thinking. from the top end of town.
God created a paradise for all, Capitalistic Ideas to create wealth is polluting the world , many socialists have capitalistic ideas, soon most of Gods creations will be extinct , 15 yrs ago I said a greedy man would burn down a field of wheat if he got more money from selling the ash, that is now happening “ethanol”

forgive them father they know not what they do,

socialism is not bad for the church

 

[Vixit]

Nowhere does Christ require mankind to give up all their possessions either to be good followers or to be able to enter heaven. If all were poor, how could anyone be helped? Face reality.
It is a dream to feel that Christ was a “socialist”, just what His Church condemns.

Get the facts and face reality.
No economic laws encourage “hoarding of wealth” and greed – some PEOPLE hoard wealth, some people are greedy. No wealth can be created until it is produced – that’s why the Late Scholastic system works so well to enable everyone to produce some wealth and to do with it as they choose through free-will. Economic laws are based on the principles of human action – of cause and effect involving God-given reason.

In Caritas in Veritate (2009), Pope Benedict XVI writes: “The Church has always held that economic action is not to be regarded as something opposed to society.” Further: “Society does not have to protect itself from the market, as if the development of the latter were ipso facto to entail the death of authentically human relations.” (#36).
There is no mention of greed or of capitalism.

To pontificate that “capitalism is evil” is to show a complete lack of knowledge and total disregard for true laws of economics, and to attack Christ’s Church which developed and acknowledges these laws.

When you can separate greedy people from the free enterprise system you will have begun to appreciate the laws as used by good, honest, thrifty people, who work with all others to produce wealth which is shared and available for charitable and other productive uses.

Capitalism and free trade are as different as night and day, just as money and wealth are.

 

[Abu]

Cruxis117
when Jesus met the rich young man, he asks him to give all of his possessions to follow him. Or did you forget that form of scripture.

1. If you continue to distort Sacred Scripture you will never understand Christ’s teaching – you’ve been shown:
   Post #628: Mt 19:16-21 refers finally to the rich young man becoming an Apostle “come follow Me”. Nowhere does Christ require mankind to give up all their possessions either to be good followers or to be able to enter heaven.
   As you have not and cannot show that Christ’s Church teaches that, come back to earth.

Capitalism….is on the far right of the economic scale

1. You have no idea of the laws of economics which are NOT political. You confuse economics and politics.
2. Until you are prepared to accept the social teaching of Christ’s Church dealing with the nature of man and the right use of the laws of economics you will be unable to sensibly discuss as a Catholic.

Christ’s Church never developed or acknowledged such things, I do not have a single iota of thought of how you ever found that.

You will never know until you take the time and trouble to read and accept what Christ’s Church teaches. You have shown a frightening disregard for what Christ’s Church is teaching.
Post #639:
In Caritas in Veritate (2009), Pope Benedict XVI writes: “The Church has always held that economic action is not to be regarded as something opposed to society.” Further: “Society does not have to protect itself from the market, as if the development of the latter were ipso facto to entail the death of authentically human relations.” (#36).
Post #619:
Listen to Pope John Paul II in the Encyclical Letter *Centesimus Annus *#42:
“If by ‘capitalism’ is meant an economic system which recognizes the fundamental and positive role of business, the market, private property and the resulting responsibility for the means of production, as well as free human creativity in the economic sector, then the answer is certainly in the affirmative even though it would perhaps be more appropriate to speak of a ‘business economy,’ ‘market economy’ or simply ‘free economy.’ ”

Wise up to the fact that you seem to have been misled by Karl Marx, the founder of communism, who invented the use of the word “capitalism” to mean a despised exploitation of “workers”, because he wanted to gain power and control everything including the “workers”.

In the Encyclical Letter *Sollicitudo Rei Socialis *(On Social Concerns), 1987, #42, Pope John Paul II teaches: “Likewise, in this concern for the poor, one must not overlook that special form of poverty which consists in being deprived of fundamental human rights, in particular the right to religious freedom and also the right to freedom of economic initiative.”

 

[Abu]

athair_siochain
When I hear or see people from within the church supporting blind greed…. I often wonder if the Bible was edited , many of the stories told by Christ left out.

No faithful Catholic promotes “greed”.
Faithful Catholics assent to the doctrine of Christ’s Church on the Sacred Scriptures: The *Catechism of the Catholic Church *(1993): "The inspired books teach the truth. ‘Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and **without error **teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures.’ " (CCC 107, quoting *Dei Verbum *11 (Dogmatic Constitution On Divine Revelation).

 

[luvzminis]

elts1956;6835337:

There is a GREAT difference between a CHOICE to move to a different career and being FORCED to do so. What do you think made this country great if it was not free enterprise and individual initiative to better one self giving a sense of accomplishment and focus?

I believe it has repeatedly been stated here that Capitalism is not perfect. However, look at the current alternatives! Would you prefer to be a slave to the government under Socialism, or a slave to the government under Communism?
While Capitalism has its faults, it still currently remains the best form of government, and can certainly be improved upon.

 

[luvzminis]

No faithful Catholic promotes “greed”.
Faithful Catholics assent to the doctrine of Christ’s Church on the Sacred Scriptures: The *Catechism of the Catholic Church *(1993): "The inspired books teach the truth. ‘Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and **without error **teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures.’ " (CCC 107, quoting *Dei Verbum *11 (Dogmatic Constitution On Divine Revelation).

I agree, and if you want to see ‘greed,’ look at the Socialist and Communist nations which take everything away from “the people” while the gov’t lives like kings and queens.

 

[luvzminis]

Capitalism and free trade are as different as night and day, just as money and wealth are.

I’ll say it again: Do you prefer to be enslaved to a government, such as in Socialism and Communism?

Please–you and anyone who favors these types of controlling governments need to more clearly explain how they are good for citizens. You just keep repeating Capitalism is a ‘bad’ thing but never mention how absolutely controlling the other forms of government are.

So–what’s so wonderful about Socialism and Communism? If you answer ‘equality,’ I’ve got some swamp land down in Florida…

There is equality in such govt’s only in equal misery for its citizens.

 

[luvzminis]

Question for those who love Socialist and Communist governments:

Why is it people flee these countries and come to the U.S. for freedom?

Why don’t people flee the U.S. (if Capitalism is so horrible) and go live in Socialist or Communist nations? Inquiring minds want to know!!

 

[Monk21]

Question for those who love Socialist and Communist governments:

Why is it people flee these countries and come to the U.S. for freedom?

Why don’t people flee the U.S. (if Capitalism is so horrible) and go live in Socialist or Communist nations? Inquiring minds want to know!!

Well I don’t think anyone here said they liked communism.

If you want to see people who have escaped the USA, come to Canada…we have lots.

 

[Cruxis117]

Question for those who love Socialist and Communist governments:

Why is it people flee these countries and come to the U.S. for freedom?

Why don’t people flee the U.S. (if Capitalism is so horrible) and go live in Socialist or Communist nations? Inquiring minds want to know!!

Hmm…Well, I don’t know that many people fleeing Socialist governments like Norway or Switzerland or France, which have some of the highest standards of living in the world. Communist governments, well, obviously there have been people who come to the U.S. to get away from a repressive government. Now, let’s consider other countries, like Chile, which was Fascist, or Nazi Germany. These had your wonderful capitalism, but…still had bad government. Weird, I thought if you had Capitalism, there would be no problems…

And yes, there have been people who have fled the U.S., primarily because they actually need jobs, which the Capitalist Government in the U.S. doesn’t provide. Do you know where they go? Canada, which is pretty much Democratic Socialist, with our government regulating the economy, we actually pulled through the recession rather well (unlike one capitalist country… )

Put it this way, tell me, what policy in the U.S. helped it’s citizens during a time of economic disaster? The New Deal, which was a socialistic concept. Tell me, if the U.S. is such a great country, with it’s unbridaled capitalism, then why does 1% of the population hold 95% of the wealth there? Why is the country at a debt 14 TRILLION dollars? Surely, the greatness of a capitalistic society that you believe would work would show in the U.S…But it doesn’t.

Trust me, which is better? Having a Government which actually takes care of it’s citizens, and actually…Governs the country, with proper application of Rule of Law, as well as economic regulation to prevent it’s citizens from starving and losing their homes, or…having the majority of the wealth and political power with Transnational Corporations which have been and are protected by the United States Government to a degree more than the average citizen that they are supposed to protect? Hmm…I’ll stick with the Government that works. Not the one that stands idly by while their citizens lose their jobs, and their employers reap the benefits.

Stop confusing Communism with Socialism, because while they share similar elements they are two completely different things. A basic High School Social Studies course easily shows that, as well as history in general. Instead, realize that I and others who are defending Socialism, or, in my own case and possibly others, Democratic Socialism, are not saying that “Capitalism” in general is wrong. I for one, understand that. However, unbridled capitalism that you would have it, without any governmental control or regulation, is what we are arguing with, the capitalism that the U.S. is trying to achieve.
Democratic Socialism, which provides a safety net for it’s citizens, combined with a Mixed Economy, using Keynesian principles, is the goal in which we should all focus on gaining. Not merely letting the economy go to pot, and letting the poor and the hungry and the homeless (provided by Capitalism) starve and die on the street.

 

[Cruxis117]

athair_siochain;7151690:

I believe it has repeatedly been stated here that Capitalism is not perfect. However, look at the current alternatives! Would you prefer to be a slave to the government under Socialism, or a slave to the government under Communism?
While Capitalism has its faults, it still currently remains the best form of government

, and can certainly be improved upon.

That’s the issue you obviously don’t understand. Capitalism is NOT A FORM OF GOVERNMENT. It’s an Economic Ideology. Here, Let me Show you. This is the Economic Spectrum.

Communism_______Socialism_______Mixed Economy_____Welfare Capitalism________Capitalism.

Which likewise, on the political spectrum, looks like this:

Communism_______Socialism_______Liberalism_______Conservative______Fascism

Or, if you don’t believe me:

upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/36/European-political-spectrum.png

Look at the correlation. Communism and Socialism, being both a political and economic ideology, are on the left. Liberalism and Mixed Economy are in the middle, and Capitalism and Fascism are on the right. Do you know why? Because they go hand in hand.
Before you start stating why you believe Capitalism is good, realize that it’s not Political, but Economic. Or, I guess with the U.S. having it’s political control in Transnational Corporations which only focus in on themselves, I guess Capitalism does become the Political Ideology, in that case.

 

[athair_siochain]

athair_siochain;7151690:

I believe it has repeatedly been stated here that Capitalism is not perfect. However, look at the current alternatives! Would you prefer to be a slave to the government under Socialism, or a slave to the government under Communism?
While Capitalism has its faults, it still currently remains the best form of government, and can certainly be improved upon.

Who wants to be a slave.?

Slaves have masters, would you rather be a slave master? like all Capitalists
There is no need for slavery, or blind greed
. A world without landlords and moneylenders would be slave free…

 

[portarica]

luvzminis;7155323:

That’s the issue you obviously don’t understand. Capitalism is NOT A FORM OF GOVERNMENT. It’s an Economic Ideology. Here, Let me Show you. This is the Economic Spectrum.

Communism_______Socialism_______Mixed Economy_____Welfare Capitalism________Capitalism.

Which likewise, on the political spectrum, looks like this:

Communism_______Socialism_______Liberalism_______Conservative______Fascism

Or, if you don’t believe me:

upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/36/European-political-spectrum.png

Look at the correlation. Communism and Socialism, being both a political and economic ideology, are on the left. Liberalism and Mixed Economy are in the middle, and Capitalism and Fascism are on the right. Do you know why? Because they go hand in hand.
Before you start stating why you believe Capitalism is good, realize that it’s not Political, but Economic. Or, I guess with the U.S. having it’s political control in Transnational Corporations which only focus in on themselves, I guess Capitalism does become the Political Ideology, in that case.

Well the Nazi’s (national socialists ) were fascists and socialists and against everything liberal. So the spectrum you cited may not be so accurate.

Most of the supposed communist and socialist governments are and were more fascist and tyrannical in application and should probably as such be on the right wing side of either spectrum.

Peace

 

[athair_siochain]

luvzminis;7155323:

That’s the issue you obviously don’t understand. Capitalism is NOT A FORM OF GOVERNMENT. It’s an Economic Ideology. Here, Let me Show you. This is the Economic Spectrum.

Communism_______Socialism_______Mixed Economy_____Welfare Capitalism________Capitalism.

Which likewise, on the political spectrum, looks like this:

Communism_______Socialism_______Liberalism_______Conservative______Fascism

Or, if you don’t believe me:

upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/36/European-political-spectrum.png

Look at the correlation. Communism and Socialism, being both a political and economic ideology, are on the left. Liberalism and Mixed Economy are in the middle, and Capitalism and Fascism are on the right. Do you know why? Because they go hand in hand.
Before you start stating why you believe Capitalism is good, realize that it’s not Political, but Economic. Or, I guess with the U.S. having it’s political control in Transnational Corporations which only focus in on themselves, I guess Capitalism does become the Political Ideology, in that case.

Human beings form government. so if the majority are landlords and money lenders the thinking of that government is based on greed, no matter what, Capitalists, Socialists or Liberals.’ does it really matter they are all the same . only in the job to line their own pockets, to ensure their gravy train is not derailed,
Understanding economic management helps. governments manage to make the slaves pay more --that those who manage the slaves, the real workers are the slaves, they also pay the most taxes and add to that the financing of the equity money market-- money printing machine, ,

 

[athair_siochain]

Cruxis117;7155620:

Well the Nazi’s (national socialists ) were fascists and socialists and against everything liberal. So the spectrum you cited may not be so accurate.

Most of the supposed communist and socialist governments are and were more fascist and tyrannical in application and should probably as such be on the right wing side of either spectrum.

Peace

Hear Hear . the victims are the slaves of systems that are on par with each other,

Christ never blamed anyone, I believe his last words were the most powerful “forgive them father they know not what they do” if you believe you are doing good, you believe you do no wrong, landlords and money lenders will tell you they are doing good, because they are not braking the law, laws put in place by landlords and moneylenders, if the law was changed to criminalize collecting rent and interest, it would be seen as the worst crime against humanity,
Christ was a Socialist of sorts, he certainly was not a Capitalist…

 

[athair_siochain]

Question for those who love Socialist and Communist governments:

Why is it people flee these countries and come to the U.S. for freedom?

Why don’t people flee the U.S. (if Capitalism is so horrible) and go live in Socialist or Communist nations? Inquiring minds want to know!!

Refugees are people running for their lives , and the US has had a open back door, then theres the mega rich running away from their responsibilities.
Economic refugees fleeing a Nation destroyed by US business and power.

The outcome is cheap labour for GREEDY PARASITES