Why is socialism bad by Church teaching?

[Abu]

luvzminis
While Capitalism has its faults, it still currently remains the best form of government

Free enterprise (capitalism) is NOT a form of government, it is a set of economic truths or laws developed by the Late Scholastics based on cause and effect.
These economic laws are based on the principles of human action – of cause and effect involving God-given reason and will, requiring scientific research and study, but are unlike the laws of physics which do not rely on reason and will for effect. So constants do not apply to economic laws as they do for physics. Economics is predictive and comparative, not absolute as in physics. [Dr Thomas E Woods, *The Church And The Market, Lexington Books, 2005, p 31].

athair_siochain
Christ was a Socialist of sorts, he certainly was not a Capitalist…

Demeaning Christ by repeatedly trying to tie Him to a pet prejudice (socialism), condemned by His Church, is the height of self-deceit.

athair_siochain
Christ never blamed anyone…

False.
To those who would not receive His representatives proclaiming His teaching He said: “And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet. Assuredly, I say unto you it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city.” (Mt 10:14,15). [Fr Thomas Dubay, *Faith And Certitude, Ignatius Press, 1995, p 189-190].

“With individuals He was very much the doctor with a duty not only to tell them what was wrong with them, but to make sure they realized it. On the multitude, however, ‘He had compassion, for they were helpless and harassed like sheep without a shepherd.’ Yet one wonders how He showed it: for they too had to have the truth. His settled habit was terseness of speech.” (Christ In Eclipse, Sheed & Ward 1978, p 40-41).

To His Apostles “whom He loved to the end” Jesus exclaimed: “Have you no sense, no wits, are your hearts dulled, can’t you see, your ears hear, don’t you remember?” (Mk 6:51).

Listen and learn from Christ.

 

[cthulhubryan]

Hitler was a Capitalist, he robbed and murdered the poor. the sick. he wanted to" own the whole world"
What had Christ to say about that?

Hitler was a Socialist. If you review the tenets of National Socialism it is a form of left-wing state powered socialism.

The Church condemns socialism. Period.

The Church condemns unconstrained capitalism.

 

[Cruxis117]

Hitler was a Socialist. If you review the tenets of National Socialism it is a form of left-wing state powered socialism.

The Church condemns socialism. Period.

The Church condemns unconstrained capitalism.

Hitler was a Fascist, there is a profound difference. He was NOT ANYWHERE CLOSE TO SOCIALISM or Communism. No way in heck. He was not a Socialist.

Furthermore, guess what you get when you have a country with constrained capitalism?
A Democratic Socialist Country.

The Church rightly condemns unconstrained capitalism and Communism, which is profoundly different from Socialism. Put it this way. Are Protestants Catholics? No. Why? Because although they do believe in some of the same thing (Christ as Son of God, etc), they are profoundly different in the ways they act and worship (amongst other things). But Socialism is not Communism any more than Protestants are Catholic.

 

[Cruxis117]

1. If you continue to distort Sacred Scripture you will never understand Christ’s teaching – you’ve been shown:
   Post #628: Mt 19:16-21 refers finally to the rich young man becoming an Apostle “come follow Me”. Nowhere does Christ require mankind to give up all their possessions either to be good followers or to be able to enter heaven.
   As you have not and cannot show that Christ’s Church teaches that, come back to earth.

**2) You have no idea of the laws of economics which are NOT political. You confuse economics and politics.
3) Until you are prepared to accept the social teaching of Christ’s Church dealing with the nature of man and the right use of the laws of economics you will be unable to sensibly discuss as a Catholic. **
**You will never know until you take the time and trouble to read and accept what Christ’s Church teaches. You have shown a frightening disregard for what Christ’s Church is teaching. **Post #639:
In Caritas in Veritate (2009), Pope Benedict XVI writes: “The Church has always held that economic action is not to be regarded as something opposed to society.” Further: “Society does not have to protect itself from the market, as if the development of the latter were ipso facto to entail the death of authentically human relations.” (#36).
Post #619:
Listen to Pope John Paul II in the Encyclical Letter *Centesimus Annus *#42:
“If by ‘capitalism’ is meant an economic system which recognizes the fundamental and positive role of business, the market, private property and the resulting responsibility for the means of production, as well as free human creativity in the economic sector, then the answer is certainly in the affirmative even though it would perhaps be more appropriate to speak of a ‘business economy,’ ‘market economy’ or simply ‘free economy.’ ”

Wise up to the fact that you seem to have been misled by Karl Marx, the founder of communism, who invented the use of the word “capitalism” to mean a despised exploitation of “workers”, because he wanted to gain power and control everything including the “workers”.

In the Encyclical Letter *Sollicitudo Rei Socialis *(On Social Concerns), 1987, #42, Pope John Paul II teaches: “Likewise, in this concern for the poor, one must not overlook that special form of poverty which consists in being deprived of fundamental human rights, in particular the right to religious freedom and also the right to freedom of economic initiative.”

No my friend, you are the one who does not understand the Laws of Economics nor Politics in general.
If you actually read and understood Marx and Engel’s Communist Manifesto, you would find that they had some very good points, and that their work was twisted and turned into the Communism that was fought in the Second World War. You have been mislead by whoever made you think that the Church espouses Capitalism, amongst other things.
Please, educate yourself by reading some of Keynes’ work, and understand that Socialism is not something evil. Such nonsense is made up by the rich who have pulled the wool over your eyes to blind you from seeing their greed. Communism? Yes. Socialism? No.

I am not arguing against what Pope JPII is saying, not at all. You seem to confuse Communism for Socialism. Once you understand basic terminology and economic/political theory, we can continue to have this debate.

 

[Abu]

Cruxis117 (post #654)
However, unbridled capitalism that you would have it, without any governmental control or regulation, is what we are arguing with, the capitalism that the U.S. is trying to achieve. Democratic Socialism, which provides a safety net for it’s citizens, combined with a Mixed Economy, using Keynesian principles, is the goal in which we should all focus on gaining.

Wow! From “What there is a problem with is Pure, Unadulterated Capitalism, which does not and should not ever exist,” (your post #633), to unbridled capitalism “that the U.S. is trying to achieve.” From condemning what does not exist, to fantasising over imagined policies that no one has ever seen because they do not exist!

You’ve already distorted Scripture over Christ and possessions; you’ve confused politics and economics; you’ve denigrated the Church’s condemnation of socialism by extolling “the beauty of a socialistic system” – all of that is just displaying prejudices, feelings, desires – empty rhetoric.

Keynesian principles used by federal manipulators have been largely responsible for bringing the U.S. economy to its knees. [See Post # 635].
Your confusion knows no bounds.

 

[Cruxis117]

Wow! From “What there is a problem with is Pure, Unadulterated Capitalism, which does not and should not ever exist,” (your post #633), to unbridled capitalism “that the U.S. is trying to achieve.” From condemning what does not exist, to fantasising over imagined policies that no one has ever seen because they do not exist!

You’ve already distorted Scripture over Christ and possessions; you’ve confused politics and economics; you’ve denigrated the Church’s condemnation of socialism by extolling “the beauty of a socialistic system” – all of that is just displaying prejudices, feelings, desires – empty rhetoric.

Keynesian principles used by federal manipulators have been largely responsible for bringing the U.S. economy to its knees. [See Post # 635].
Your confusion knows no bounds.

Of course it does, because I’m so confused why such an ardent Catholic is somehow blind enough to not even see properly what politics and economics entail, as well as somehow holding Adam Smith’s Lassaiz-Faire economic ideology over the well-being of men and women, which many democratic socialist countries actually have concern over. Whereas in America, the application of “Reaganomics” and capitalistic ventures have put 1% of the Citizens of the U.S. with 95% of the wealth. It’s a perfect example of why Capitalism fails. Whereas a Democratic Socialist country with a Mixed Economy does not.

 

[homosapien15]

@Abu

I’m not calling into question your scriptural passages, but there’s more than just words. Jesus was clearly acting in a manner that was communal and sharing throughout the Gospels. He never says wealth is evil, but he shows by example constantly that it should be shared to help others in need. Does this make him a Socialist? No. However, Jesus’ tenants and those of a truly Socialist society are spot on.

The Church has condemned Socialism, and yet upheld it at the same time. Child labor, labor laws, breaks, minimum wage, etc etc are all in place because of socialists that fought hard for them. Rerum Novarum, as I read it, seems to support almost all of socialism’s most basic tenants, save the need to retain private ownership.

 

[po18guy]

I’m afraid more of the world is Socialist than Capitalist. Do some research.

You apparently have done sufficient research for everyone here. I’ll not waste what little time I have left.

 

[Abu]

homosapien15
Jesus’ tenants and those of a truly Socialist society are spot on. The Church has condemned Socialism, and yet upheld it at the same time.

False. Some never fail to fall to self-deception. As shown in post # 628:
The socialism that is condemned by Pius XI in Quadragesimo Anno, 1931 has the following false theories:

1. The Welfare State as the supreme objective.
2. Everything belongs to the State, thus excluding the real rights to private property.
3. The elimination of free enterprise in favour of state-controlled production and distribution.
4. Rejects the principle of subsidiarity.

Pius XI declared emphatically in Q.A. #120: “If Socialism, like all errors, contains some truth (which, moreover, the Supreme Pontiffs have never denied), it is based nevertheless on a theory of human society peculiar to itself and irreconcilable with true Christianity. Religious socialism, Christian socialism, are contradictory terms; no one can be at the same time a good Catholic and a true socialist."

Leo XIII asserts: “…the socialists, working on the poor man’s envy of the rich, are striving to do away with private property, and contend that individual possessions should become the common property of all, to be administered by the State or by municipal bodies.” Rerum Novarum, #4, 1891]. This utterly rejects socialism as an economic system.

Similarly John Paul II condemns socialism for precisely this among other errors, in Centesimus Annus, making a frank acknowledgement that socialism has failed on its own terms as witnessed by events in Eastern Europe.

As Fr John Corapi explains:
“The common error is to think that socialism helps the poor and disenfranchised. As Pope Leo XIII pointed out as long ago as 1891 in his Encyclical Rerum Novarum, socialism does not help the poor. Rather, it reduces everyone to the same lowest common denominator of poverty and misery, while at the same time drying up the very sources of capital.”

 

[luvzminis]

Refugees are people running for their lives , and the US has had a open back door, then theres the mega rich running away from their responsibilities.
Economic refugees fleeing a Nation destroyed by US business and power.

The outcome is cheap labour for GREEDY PARASITES

I’m afraid you’re misled.

They flee these countries because they know life is better in the U.S.

If you still disagree, please cite specific examples of Socialist/Communist governments which have respected all their citizens.

 

[luvzminis]

@Abu

I’m not calling into question your scriptural passages, but there’s more than just words. Jesus was clearly acting in a manner that was communal and sharing throughout the Gospels. He never says wealth is evil, but he shows by example constantly that it should be shared to help others in need. Does this make him a Socialist? No. However, Jesus’ tenants and those of a truly Socialist society are spot on.

The Church has condemned Socialism, and yet upheld it at the same time. Child labor, labor laws, breaks, minimum wage, etc etc are all in place because of socialists that fought hard for them. Rerum Novarum, as I read it, seems to support almost all of socialism’s most basic tenants, save the need to retain private ownership.

While Jesus certainly wants us to share, He would obviously NOT want the enslavement to all things government and the total lack of freedom Socialist govt’s engage in.
Aren’t you forgetting, also, that there is only “on the surface” religious “freedom” in such countries? True churches have to worship ‘underground.’ Would Jesus want that???

You’re creating a rosy picture of Socialism, and attributing positive things to this type of gov’t. Yet, can you explain why people always end up fleeing such a government? Socialism equals basically turning over your life to the government powers that be, and they become a type of false god. Hmm…I don’t think Jesus would be for that one, either!

 

[luvzminis]

Of course it does, because I’m so confused why such an ardent Catholic is somehow blind enough to not even see properly what politics and economics entail, as well as somehow holding Adam Smith’s Lassaiz-Faire economic ideology over the well-being of men and women, which many democratic socialist countries actually have concern over. Whereas in America, the application of “Reaganomics” and capitalistic ventures have put 1% of the Citizens of the U.S. with 95% of the wealth. It’s a perfect example of why Capitalism fails. Whereas a Democratic Socialist country with a Mixed Economy does not.

Aren’t you forgetting that many of the wealthy in this country (and believe me, I’m not one of them!) worked hard for what they have? They should have the freedom to decide how to spend their money, then, shouldn’t they?

Truly wealthy people are also giving people, I have found. They are not the stereotypical ‘bad’ ‘greedy’ ‘selfish’ lot the envious far Left makes them out to be.

 

[luvzminis]

No my friend, you are the one who does not understand the Laws of Economics nor Politics in general.
If you actually read and understood Marx and Engel’s Communist Manifesto, you would find that they had some very good points, and that their work was twisted and turned into the Communism that was fought in the Second World War. You have been mislead by whoever made you think that the Church espouses Capitalism, amongst other things.
Please, educate yourself by reading some of Keynes’ work, and understand that Socialism is not something evil. Such nonsense is made up by the rich who have pulled the wool over your eyes to blind you from seeing their greed. Communism? Yes. Socialism? No.

I am not arguing against what Pope JPII is saying, not at all. You seem to confuse Communism for Socialism. Once you understand basic terminology and economic/political theory, we can continue to have this debate.

Funny how Socialism and Communism can sound so good—on the surface.
But look how many people have suffered and died under such regimes. If, God forbid, either of them are enshrined here in the U.S., we, too, can expect much persecution and even death. Would you want that for yourself or your loved ones? Obviously not.

Again, the Church doesn’t specifically embrace a political choice such as Capitalism, Socialism, or Communism. None are perfect, but Capitalism is by far, the most free, and while it can always be improved upon, at least it offers hope–not persecution and death–to its citizens, unlike Socialism or Communism.

 

[luvzminis]

Free enterprise (capitalism) is NOT a form of government, it is a set of economic truths or laws developed by the Late Scholastics based on cause and effect.
These economic laws are based on the principles of human action – of cause and effect involving God-given reason and will, requiring scientific research and study, but are unlike the laws of physics which do not rely on reason and will for effect. So constants do not apply to economic laws as they do for physics. Economics is predictive and comparative, not absolute as in physics. [Dr Thomas E Woods, *The Church And The Market

, Lexington Books, 2005, p 31].

Demeaning Christ by repeatedly trying to tie Him to a pet prejudice (socialism), condemned by His Church, is the height of self-deceit.

False.
To those who would not receive His representatives proclaiming His teaching He said: “And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet. Assuredly, I say unto you it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city.” (Mt 10:14,15). [Fr Thomas Dubay, *Faith And Certitude, Ignatius Press, 1995, p 189-190].

“With individuals He was very much the doctor with a duty not only to tell them what was wrong with them, but to make sure they realized it. On the multitude, however, ‘He had compassion, for they were helpless and harassed like sheep without a shepherd.’ Yet one wonders how He showed it: for they too had to have the truth. His settled habit was terseness of speech.” (Christ In Eclipse, Sheed & Ward 1978, p 40-41).

To His Apostles “whom He loved to the end” Jesus exclaimed: “Have you no sense, no wits, are your hearts dulled, can’t you see, your ears hear, don’t you remember?” (Mk 6:51).

Listen and learn from Christ.

Yes, I know Capitalism is not a form of gov’t. But I’m referring to it for practical reasons here, and to compare with govt’s with dictators just to show the differences.

 

[Cruxis117]

Funny how Socialism and Communism can sound so good—on the surface.
But look how many people have suffered and died under such regimes. If, God forbid, either of them are enshrined here in the U.S., we, too, can expect much persecution and even death. Would you want that for yourself or your loved ones? Obviously not.

Again, the Church doesn’t specifically embrace a political choice such as Capitalism, Socialism, or Communism. None are perfect, but Capitalism is by far, the most free, and while it can always be improved upon, at least it offers hope–not persecution and death–to its citizens, unlike Socialism or Communism.

I completely disagree. If you take a look around the world today, the countries that are actually considered the best in the world have adopted Socialist policies and ideologies. Your own country, the U.S., has done this as well, with the New Deal, as well as the most recent health care reform. Do you understand the difference between Communism and Socialism? Communism involves a radical, quick, violent revolution in order to implement change, Socialism whereas does not, but works through the political system to initiate changes for all citizens to be equal. And I disagree, for Capitalism only offers wealth to the rich, and homelessness and suffering to the poor. You are right, the Church does not embrace any political or economic ideology (as none of them apply (to a certain extent) from spreading the truth of the Gospel) but politically, a Democratic Socialist political system, combined with a Mixed Economy, is the best form of government. Many people have died under Communist Regimes, as well as Fascist, which is the exact same thing as Communism, except economically they are free. They implement the Capitalist system, but have complete political control. Obviously, Capitalism does not equal freedom.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

If the Church is so opposed to socialism or Communism, why do Catholics continue to belong to and support the Democrat Party, which in modern times might as well be called the Socialist Party?

And why do I continue to hear socialist-tinged homilies about how greed is bad? I know that greed for its own sake IS bad, but the message dovetails nicely with the Democrat Party’s invective against corporations and Wall Street, and backing unions and “worker’s rights.” The message is loud and clear - for anyone who has ears to listen.

I think the Church has become confused over what “social justice” even means. That term is socialist in its origins, and means “social equality (equal misery for all) enforced by a totalitarian government.” I wish we would find another way to say “love of our fellow human beings and being in service to one another.” Socialism does not mean that everyone is equally miserable, however - the ruling class takes the spoils and abuses the “workers” that they were supposedly trying to help. There are always people at the top who ARE greedy and are living off the backs of others. Always. Capitalism is the ONLY economic system that has the potential of truly allowing people to be free and care for themselves and others. Socialism/Communism is also anti-God, because the government has become God.

Charity should be done through the Church, and that is the order God wanted it to be. We were told to care for widows and orphans, not to force our fellow citizens to care for them. The government has tried to, and succeeded in, taking the place of churches in caring for people, and what that amounts to is theft from one citizen to give to another.

 

[Cruxis117]

Aren’t you forgetting that many of the wealthy in this country (and believe me, I’m not one of them!) worked hard for what they have? They should have the freedom to decide how to spend their money, then, shouldn’t they?

Truly wealthy people are also giving people, I have found. They are not the stereotypical ‘bad’ ‘greedy’ ‘selfish’ lot the envious far Left makes them out to be.

Does working hard include starring in T.V. shows, Movies, and bombing innocent people?
Yes and no, in terms of your first question. The Common Good should always override the Individual good. If a billionaire wants to go buy his 8th car, while a family somewhere across the country is barely making ends meet with several jobs, don’t you think it’s fair that they have a chance to actually…live? And Eat? And have a home?

I don’t see how what your saying is true, because if it was, then you wouldn’t have 95% of the wealth with 1% of the population. Wealth should be equally distributed to a certain extent. No one should live in the U.S. or Canada or anywhere else and be given all of these rights protected by our Constitutions, and then left to starve on the street.

 

[Cruxis117]

If the Church is so opposed to socialism or Communism, why do Catholics continue to belong to and support the Democrat Party, which in modern times might as well be called the Socialist Party?

And why do I continue to hear socialist-tinged homilies about how greed is bad? I know that greed for its own sake IS bad, but the message dovetails nicely with the Democrat Party’s invective against corporations and Wall Street, and backing unions and “worker’s rights.” The message is loud and clear - for anyone who has ears to listen.

I think the Church has become confused over what “social justice” even means. That term is socialist in its origins, and means “social equality (equal misery for all) enforced by a totalitarian government.” I wish we would find another way to say “love of our fellow human beings and being in service to one another.” Socialism does not mean that everyone is equally miserable, however - the ruling class takes the spoils and abuses the “workers” that they were supposedly trying to help. There are always people at the top who ARE greedy and are living off the backs of others. Always. Capitalism is the ONLY economic system that has the potential of truly allowing people to be free and care for themselves and others. Socialism/Communism is also anti-God, because the government has become God.

Charity should be done through the Church, and that is the order God wanted it to be. We were told to care for widows and orphans, not to force our fellow citizens to care for them. The government has tried to, and succeeded in, taking the place of churches in caring for people, and what that amounts to is theft from one citizen to give to another.

It’s not forcing our fellow citizens. Do they not have a moral obligation to help their fellow man? Or are they allowed to make 500,000 and let their neighbour starve and have to choose between having food or having a home? Socialism is not anti-God, that’s just rubbish right there. The Government is meant to protect and take care of it’s citizens, not to look pretty and get paid to do squat and hold the controls for the big red button that can blow up another nation at a milisecond.

 

[Cruxis117]

False. Some never fail to fall to self-deception. As shown in post # 628:
The socialism that is condemned by Pius XI in Quadragesimo Anno, 1931 has the following false theories:
**1) The Welfare State as the supreme objective.
2) Everything belongs to the State, thus excluding the real rights to private property.
3) The elimination of free enterprise in favour of state-controlled production and distribution.
4) Rejects the principle of subsidiarity. **

Pius XI declared emphatically in Q.A. #120: “If Socialism, like all errors, contains some truth (which, moreover, the Supreme Pontiffs have never denied), it is based nevertheless on a theory of human society peculiar to itself and irreconcilable with true Christianity. Religious socialism, Christian socialism, are contradictory terms; no one can be at the same time a good Catholic and a true socialist."

Leo XIII asserts: “…the socialists, working on the poor man’s envy of the rich, are striving to do away with private property, and contend that individual possessions should become the common property of all, to be administered by the State or by municipal bodies.” Rerum Novarum, #4, 1891]. This utterly rejects socialism as an economic system.

Similarly John Paul II condemns socialism for precisely this among other errors, in Centesimus Annus, making a frank acknowledgement that socialism has failed on its own terms as witnessed by events in Eastern Europe.

As Fr John Corapi explains:
“The common error is to think that socialism helps the poor and disenfranchised. As Pope Leo XIII pointed out as long ago as 1891 in his Encyclical Rerum Novarum, socialism does not help the poor. Rather, it reduces everyone to the same lowest common denominator of poverty and misery, while at the same time drying up the very sources of capital.”

This is communism, not socialism. Two completely different things. The only things that failed in Eastern Europe were Communism and Fascism, not Socialism.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

It’s not forcing our fellow citizens. Do they not have a moral obligation to help their fellow man? Or are they allowed to make 500,000 and let their neighbour starve and have to choose between having food or having a home? Socialism is not anti-God, that’s just rubbish right there. The Government is meant to protect and take care of it’s citizens, not to look pretty and get paid to do squat and hold the controls for the big red button that can blow up another nation at a milisecond.

Wrong on all counts. The government is there to protect the rights we have been granted by GOD, not to award us rights as the people in government choose to. Our government is severely limited as to what it is to do, and that does not include forcing us to give to others. We as Christian Catholics already know that we are to give to others out of our time, talent and treasure, and most other Christians do this too. That is what missions have always been about.

Of COURSE there is coercion when the government takes my rightful property (my wages) to give to people who will not work! What else is it when an institution uses its overwhelming power to take from some to give to others?

If socialism is not anti-God, explain why Europe is littered with unused churches? As socialism has risen in importance, religion has waned. Socialism is HUMANISTIC in origin - that heaven may be experienced here on earth created by us humans. That rather leaves God out, does it not?

Anyway, even Marx knew that there is no such thing as socialism - that is merely a step along the way from capitalism to communism, and not a system unto itself. The end result is communism in its full expression.