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ERose
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What are you talking about. Maybe you should read my post again because there was something lost in the translation or something.
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anthony022071
Guest
Capitalism is about making a profit from products and services. There is nothing wrong with that. It is not greed to make a profit,that is,make a living,off of your business. It does not sy anything about whether a businessman is greedy. Greed is primarily a matter of the heart,like lust. There is no use in trying to outlaw greed any more than to outlaw lust. It is through profits that businesses stay in business and pay their employees,who are thus able to buy things for themselves.
Why are you quoting Mao approvingly? He was a mass-murderer with no moral conscience.
Most people do not want a socialist revolution. Socialism is counter-intuitive,and goes against the natural order of things. It is natural for people to want to be able to improve their condition by making a profit from their work.
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ERose
Guest
I’ll open up mine if you open up yours. There are two sides of this story a conservative side and a liberal side. You need to look at both and I have. I am a conservative man tend to lean that way. Anything can be twisted and it has been twisted. The World Health Organization is in my opinion not very repretable either since it is ran by socialist/liberal thinkers as has been shown by its actions the last 20 years supporting abortion, birth control, and not standing up for women’s rights.
**Why are 50% of your bank rupt people there because of health costs?**Depending on what study you read. Other studies show that it is closer to 12 to 17%. Also if bankruptcy is primarily due to medical bills you would expect fewer bankruptcies in Canada per capita. Well there is a study that shows this is not the case. During 2006-2007 the bankruptcy rate was .30 while in the USA it was .26 & .27 per year. Here is the web address for the study: fraseramerica.org/commerce.web/product_files/HealthInsuranceandBankruptcyRates_US.pdf
**Why do 48 million of your people not have health insurance? ** Maybe but there is a difference between health care and health insurance. Everyone has access to healthcare in the USA. No hospital under law can turn anyone away. Even if they know the patient cannot pay. Didn’t know that did you. Also about 10-12 million of that number are illegal aliens and about 26 million of these people earn over $50,000 a year and thus should be able to afford healthcare but evidently choose not to. Here is a good article for you at: spectator.org/archives/2009/03/20/the-myth-of-the-46-million
**Why do your seniors come up to Canada by the bus load to get their meds?**Good for your country right? I mean you get Americans coming across to border for meds and they most probably stay for a few days maybe and your country benefits from the tourism as well. That is a win/win for Canada. I wouldn’t complain about that.
**Why do people die, because they can’t afford to go to a doctor?**All people die eventually. And like I said by law a hospital or doctor cannot turn down a patient even if they know that they cannot buy. One of the complaints right now about illegal immigrants saturating some states emergency rooms. Because they know the hospitals cannot turn them down.
**Why do we in Canada live 3 years longer, on average, then people in the states?**This really has nothing to do with healthcare but rather the indulging of Americans. Americans do not eat as well or exercise as they should. That is the reason why we are one of the most obiese nations in the world.
**Why are you afraid of universal health care??? My sister in the states says “they just don’t get it”!!!**Why? Because I do not trust my government to manage it properly. They have done a real good job running the postal service (near bankruptsy), the stimulus package (done nothing for the is country except put us in more dept); social security (near bankruptsy); medicare (near bankruptsy) and the list can go on and on. Also I like having my money and I do not want to see all my money go to the government to mismanage.
Wrong. It cost you or somebody else something. Nothing is for free. It is paid for in income taxes or whatever else is used to pay for it. From what I understand is that an average Canadian family making 100,000 per year pays about $10,000 more in taxes than I do. My health insurance is about $6000.00 a year. You do the math.
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Pitcharan
Guest
Where is the question of translation when we are all using one english language. I verbatim quote you again:What are you talking about. Maybe you should read my post again because there was something lost in the translation or something.
and my response
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And realise this: you are completely in error when you say that Socialists made the poor covet what belonged to the rich. You first of all fail to understand the spirit of the tenth as well all other commandments of God, which hang on these two commandments: 1. Love God with all your heart and with all your mind and with all your strength; 2. Love your neighbour as yourself. Whatever the rich owned was earned under unfair laws enacted by past governements who had the mandate. The socialists used their mandate to make a different law. The socialist laws embrace God’s law far more closely than that of other feudal rulers and pro-rich pro-capitalist democracies.
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Monk21
Guest
Your figures are wrong;
When I say my cost is $0.00 it is a shame i have to explain it, but there is no out of pocket expense. My total taxes last year were under $500.00 on retirement funds of just over 30,000. I have adopted 2 children in the 3rd world and I get along fine.
Like my sister say…“Ya just don’t get it” 37th in health care is at least under 50.
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Monk21
Guest
Why do 48 million of your people not have health insurance? Maybe but there is a difference between health care and health insurance. Everyone has access to healthcare in the USA. No hospital under law can turn anyone away. Even if they know the patient cannot pay. Didn’t know that did you. Also about 10-12 million of that number are illegal aliens and about 26 million of these people earn over $50,000 a year and thus should be able to afford healthcare but evidently choose not to. Here is a good article for you at:
You need to get out more;
They did a thing on TV news (USA) showing people being dumped on the street by cab drivers, still in hospital gowns. No insurance. They had a regular dumping spot and all the TV guys had to do was sit and wait for them.
A emerg. Dr. friend of my son had a Dr. friend working in Baltimore and every time she treats someone without insurance she gets hauled up on the carpet.
You need to get out more;
They did a thing on TV news (USA) showing people being dumped on the street by cab drivers, still in hospital gowns. No insurance. They had a regular dumping spot and all the TV guys had to do was sit and wait for them.
A emerg. Dr. friend of my son had a Dr. friend working in Baltimore and every time she treats someone without insurance she gets hauled up on the carpet.
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Limbo
Guest
I think there is nothing I can say that will move you from your position, and nothing you have said so far that will move me, so this is a sign-off. Nothing to be gained by further discussion.
I will say this in closing: You appear to have married Jesus to capitalism. I think your position is closest to Calvinism. You appear to have adrenalin rushes over this word you do use a great deal: “freedom.” Interestingly, Jesus rarely used that word. Instead, he used the word LOVE a lot. He advised us over and over again to help the poor and to establish social justice. He did not say to only help the poor who “work hard” or “deserve” help. He told the rich man to sell what he had and give to the poor, then follow him.
You prefer a class society based on wealth and power. You fail to see, or admit, that government are ALWAYS controlled by SOMEONE OR SOME PEOPLE, not by everyone. In capitalism, it is ALWAYS. controlled by the rich. In socialism, it MAY be corrupted to be controlled by beauracrats and politicians. It may not be. It is up to the people to guard against this, and to work out systems to prevent and minimize these risks.
I see your position as anti-Christian and anti-Catholic. It drives so many people away from Christianity, and into the arms of atheism and extremism, because it damages the credibility of Christ’s messages of how to live in this world. You also imply that what you call “the church” is infallible in teachings on social and economic matters. It certainly is not. Galileo, anybody? Evolution, anybody? Science, anybody?
Well, I think Jesus is great, no matter what his organized followers have often done to his ministry and in his name. But, sadly, the marriages of political/economic ideology and government to Christianity have proven, over and over again, to be the downfall of the organized churches that function in his name. May God have mercy on us all.
I will say this in closing: You appear to have married Jesus to capitalism. I think your position is closest to Calvinism. You appear to have adrenalin rushes over this word you do use a great deal: “freedom.” Interestingly, Jesus rarely used that word. Instead, he used the word LOVE a lot. He advised us over and over again to help the poor and to establish social justice. He did not say to only help the poor who “work hard” or “deserve” help. He told the rich man to sell what he had and give to the poor, then follow him.
You prefer a class society based on wealth and power. You fail to see, or admit, that government are ALWAYS controlled by SOMEONE OR SOME PEOPLE, not by everyone. In capitalism, it is ALWAYS. controlled by the rich. In socialism, it MAY be corrupted to be controlled by beauracrats and politicians. It may not be. It is up to the people to guard against this, and to work out systems to prevent and minimize these risks.
I see your position as anti-Christian and anti-Catholic. It drives so many people away from Christianity, and into the arms of atheism and extremism, because it damages the credibility of Christ’s messages of how to live in this world. You also imply that what you call “the church” is infallible in teachings on social and economic matters. It certainly is not. Galileo, anybody? Evolution, anybody? Science, anybody?
Well, I think Jesus is great, no matter what his organized followers have often done to his ministry and in his name. But, sadly, the marriages of political/economic ideology and government to Christianity have proven, over and over again, to be the downfall of the organized churches that function in his name. May God have mercy on us all.
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Abu
Guest
How strange! Jesus was adamant – “And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.” (Jn 8:32).
How? “…the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth.” (1Tim 3:15).
In the parable of the talents, Jesus Christ, God the Son, lauds the servant who has multiplied talents – “For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Mt 25: 14-30).
In the Parable of the Talents, Jesus is teaching that the true servant must be faithful, prudent and industrious. Of the three, two doubled the master’s money after some considerable time, while the third servant only buries the money and throws the responsibility on the master, very much like some on this DB who fault “capitalists” for everything – as the master has no share in the operations but expects a profit. The master unmasks the charade to uncover the true motive for the third’s conduct – sloth. The faithful servants are well-rewarded by being faithful, prudent and industrious with the master’s money. “For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Mt 25: 14-30).
The parable primarily teaches that God’s gifts, of nature and especially of grace, are held in stewardship and must not be allowed to lie idle. They are to be used to further His kingdom.
[See *A Catholic Commentary on Holy Scripture, Ed. Dom Bernard Orchard, Thomas Nelson & Sons, 1951].
In his outstanding work Christians For Freedom, Ignatius 1986, p 43-47, (with a new edition, since), Dr Alejandro Chafuen has examined carefully the teaching of Christ and wealth. Citing the case of the rich young man in Luke 18:18-25, Dr Chafuen remarks that many authors think that Jesus was condemning the possession of riches, but “the Late Scholastics indicated that this was not the correct interpretation. Citing Luke 14:26, where Jesus says, ‘If any man come to Me without hating his father, mother, wife, children, brothers, sisters, yes and his own life too, he cannot be My disciple,’ the Scholastics pointed out that this passage does not enjoin Christians to hate their fathers. Such doctrine would contradict the Fourth Commandment. Thomist and Scholastic interpretation of this passage is that the entrance to the kingdom of Heaven is denied to anyone who values things more than God. In Matthew’s Gospel (10:37), the same passage reads: ‘Anyone who prefers father or mother to Me is not worthy of Me. Anyone who prefers son or daughter to Me is not worthy of Me.’ It would be a violation of the natural order to value a created thing above its creator, as did the young ruler who pursued riches as his ultimate goal.
“As is indicated in Luke (12:29-31): ‘you must not set your heart on things to eat and things to drink; nor must you worry. It is the pagans of this world who set their hearts on all these things. Your father well knows you need them. No; set your hearts on His kingdom, and these other things will be given you as well.’ Dr Chafuen notes that “many people close to Jesus were quite wealthy for their times. Joseph seems to have had his own business and perhaps a donkey; Peter owned a fishing boat, and Matthew was a tax collector. Jesus praised the rich man Zaccheus. It was the wealthy Joseph of Arimathea who kept faith even when the Apostles were beset by doubt (Mt 27:57). Jesus does not condemn the possession of riches but, rather disordered attachment to them.” Notice also that Jesus did not ask His Apostles to renounce their property.
Free enterprise is not “greed driven” it is common good driven for the welfare of the greatest number and dependant on consumer satisfaction and competition, dependant on the laws of cause and effect involving God-given reason, and based on the standard social principle of the Church – subsidiarity.
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Monk21
Guest
In Ontario our provincial government sold a Highway to a foreign company. We now pay terrible prices to use it. GREED.
When I managed a Jesuit complex we rented out a portion of the building to a government office. The space abt 20,000 sq. ft. was cleaned by a lady who came in every night, 5 days a week. Instead of paying the lady a good wage they hired out the job to a private company. The paid around $15.00 per hour to this company and the company paid the lady $8.50 an hour. Somebody sitting on their butt was taking in the rest. Greed.
In this last case the government could have done better by hiring their own cleaners.
So we see faults on both side here.
When I managed a Jesuit complex we rented out a portion of the building to a government office. The space abt 20,000 sq. ft. was cleaned by a lady who came in every night, 5 days a week. Instead of paying the lady a good wage they hired out the job to a private company. The paid around $15.00 per hour to this company and the company paid the lady $8.50 an hour. Somebody sitting on their butt was taking in the rest. Greed.
In this last case the government could have done better by hiring their own cleaners.
So we see faults on both side here.
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estesbob
Guest
Actually the person “sitting on their butt” was proving the cleaning matetrials ,the equipment she uses, the liablity insurance, paying payroll taxes on her wages, providing unemployment insurance and assuring the job is done right. I do the books for several janitoral services and you live in fantasy world if you think they have pure profit for everything over what they pay their employees and what they charge.
This is the problem with these types of dicussions-most people have no idea of the costs involved in running a business.
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Monk21
Guest
Sorry everything was supplied by the gov.
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Monk21
Guest
The gov. also had abt 10 new cars that sat for six months with out plates.
29 new laptops that sat in a hall and 30 PCs, all to maintain their budget levels.
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estesbob
Guest
I doubt it as that would cause huge liability problems. BUT if your story is true it just goes to show how ineffective the Govt is at running things. More evidence that Socialsim , in addtion to being ineficient, hurts those on the lower end of the scakle worse.
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estesbob
Guest
Intereresting-and you wantt us to turn our health care over to the govt!!!
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Monk21
Guest
Like I said there is good and bad in both. This was a small gov. office that can hide away from most of what is going on.
**Now take a look at your banks. **
We don’t have those problems because we have laws that control the banks.
During the depression 5000 of your banks failed. We didn’t loose any.
Gov. control. It’s good sometimes.
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ERose
Guest
I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree. You point out in your post the two commandments of love/charity. These I agree with. The difference between Socialism and the Christian Ideal is that Christians are called to charity out of love for our neighbor. Socialism on the other hand preceives an injustice that someone has wealth and another does not. So it takes the wealth of the one that has and distributes it to those that it says has no wealth. The spirit of the 10th commandment is to protect one’s right to have possessions: property, home, wealth, wife, children, etc. In every place that socialism is introduced it is first introduced amongst the poor as a means of correcting an injustice. It wants to establish two classes: The “haves” and “have-nots”. Then it fires up the “have-nots” against the “haves” and a revolution whether bloody or not occurs. If this is not preaching coveting I do not know what is.
I do not know the situation in your country, but here in the USA there are no true unfair laws to lift the rich up and keep the poor down. Many of the rich here in the USA at one time or another were either poor or middleclass and worked their way up. Anyone in this country has the right to start their own business. What they do with it afterwards is up to them.
To summarize there is a huge difference between Charity (Christian) and Mandate or Law (Socialism).
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ERose
Guest
Again you are wrong. You may not have to pay for it yourself but someone is paying for it. Money does not materialize out of thin air. It comes from somewhere. So the next time you see people in your country who work you ought to thank them for it is their money and not yours that is supporting your health care. The data I got was from a Canadian.
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ERose
Guest
Then those people who are being turned away can file charges against that hospital and win. I personnally have not seen this in our news and I watch alot of news but I am not calling you a liar. If this happens then criminal charges should be filed against that hospital or the doctors doing this.
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Monk21
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Monk21
Guest
I paid into the system from the early 1960s. The thing is we all pay the same and the government still collects from seniors who have a good income. Now at 70 I fall below the line where I would have to pay. But, everyone paying the same keeps out of pocket cost down and we get good treatment. No $50,000. bills like in the states.
In my working years I am thankful I was healthy, now a few more things go wrong.
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