Why is socialism bad by Church teaching?

[ERose]

I think there is nothing I can say that will move you from your position, and nothing you have said so far that will move me, so this is a sign-off. Nothing to be gained by further discussion.

I will say this in closing: You appear to have married Jesus to capitalism. I think your position is closest to Calvinism. You appear to have adrenalin rushes over this word you do use a great deal: “freedom.” Interestingly, Jesus rarely used that word. Instead, he used the word LOVE a lot. He advised us over and over again to help the poor and to establish social justice. He did not say to only help the poor who “work hard” or “deserve” help. He told the rich man to sell what he had and give to the poor, then follow him.

You prefer a class society based on wealth and power. You fail to see, or admit, that government are ALWAYS controlled by SOMEONE OR SOME PEOPLE, not by everyone. In capitalism, it is ALWAYS. controlled by the rich. In socialism, it MAY be corrupted to be controlled by beauracrats and politicians. It may not be. It is up to the people to guard against this, and to work out systems to prevent and minimize these risks.

I see your position as anti-Christian and anti-Catholic. It drives so many people away from Christianity, and into the arms of atheism and extremism, because it damages the credibility of Christ’s messages of how to live in this world. You also imply that what you call “the church” is infallible in teachings on social and economic matters. It certainly is not. Galileo, anybody? Evolution, anybody? Science, anybody?

Well, I think Jesus is great, no matter what his organized followers have often done to his ministry and in his name. But, sadly, the marriages of political/economic ideology and government to Christianity have proven, over and over again, to be the downfall of the organized churches that function in his name. May God have mercy on us all.

Sad to see that you are signing off on this one Limbo since it is obvious from your post that you need proper instruction on the teachings of the Church you claim to be part of.

1st in the USA there is a separation of church and state. So there is no combining Christianity with economics except in attempting to enforce morality within the system, which has been done through laws and through those that work within the system.

2nd: So you are saying that it is Love to TAKE what little I or anyone else earns and give it to someone else that did not earn it? My church teaches that we should give freely or be a cheerful giver. I cannot be a giver unless it is me that is giving. I did not say that it is wrong to give to the poor even those that do not earn what they have. I am saying that for me to be Christian it must be me that gives. I cannot give if it is taken away from me and given to whoever.

3rd: The church is infallible in the teachings of morality and dogma. It is not infallible when it comes to science since science is outside the range of religion. It looks like you have an issue with authority within the church which is the greatest problem in modern Catholcism due to the progressive movement. Remember we are called to obedience in things concerning morality and dogma. Socialism is not a teaching of Dogma by the church so chin up you can be a socialist and Catholic without risk to your eternal soul. It just doesn’t make you right though. Also you need to do more research concerning the Church and Galileo, Science and Evolution. What you find may surprise you. Don’t just take what anti-Christians and anti-Catholics at face value and do your own research. If you want to attack these three points start threads on each one in the Philosophy section.

 

[Monk21]

**Harvard Medical Study Links Lack of Insurance to 45,000 U.S. Deaths a **Year

As the White House and Congress continue debating how best to provide coverage to tens of millions of Americans currently without health insurance, a new study (PDF) is meant to offer a stark reminder of why lawmakers should continue to try. Researchers from Harvard Medical School say the lack of coverage can be tied to about 45,000 deaths a year in the United States — a toll that is greater than the number of people who die each year from kidney disease.

“If you extend coverage, you can save lives,” said Dr. Steffie Woolhandler, a professor of medicine at Harvard who is one of the study’s authors. The research is being published in the December issue of the American Journal of Public Health and was posted online Thursday.

 

[Abu]

Pitcharan
socialist laws embrace God’s law far more closely than that of other feudal rulers and pro-rich pro-capitalist democracies.

It is Karl Marx who coined the term “capitalism” as a pejorative term to condemn wealth and foment class warfare. The capacity to motivate work and the reinvestment of profits constitute the driving force for the productivity of free enterprise. So against the confused and misled, it is wise to examine Christ’s teaching on using our talents, and on wealth, as we have done (Post #128).

As Fr John Corapi explains:
“The common error is to think that socialism helps the poor and disenfranchised. As Pope Leo XIII pointed out as long ago as 1891 in his Encyclical Rerum Novarum, socialism does not help the poor. Rather, it reduces everyone to the same lowest common denominator of poverty and misery, while at the same time drying up the very sources of capital.”

Free enterprise was developed by Catholic Late Scholastics and has enabled the banishment of the dire poverty which preceded it, part of how the Church built Western civilization. Pope John Paul II acclaimed the free economy that recognises the “fundamental role” of private property and the freedom of mankind to economic creativity, as “the path to true civil and economic progress” within “the fundamental and positive role of business, the market”… “and the resulting responsibility for the means of production.” *Centesimus Annus *#42, 1991].

No economic laws encourage “hoarding of wealth” – some PEOPLE hoard wealth. No wealth can be created until it is produced – that’s why the Late Scholastic system works so well to enable everyone to produce some wealth and to do with it as they choose through free-will. Economic laws are based on the principles of human action – of cause and effect involving God-given reason.

Free enterprise economics is one of many “greats” that the Catholic Church gave to the world in building Western civilization, including Catholic charity.

Free enterprise doesn’t emphasise greed and self over the common good – does anyone know of any legitimate business that can survive without giving its customers value for money, with other similar businesses competing for the customers’’ patronage? Is the State going to do a better job of allocation of scarce resources?

St Augustine taught that wickedness was not inherent in commerce, that price was a function not simply of the seller’s costs, but also of the buyer’s wants, and it was up to the individual to live righteously. Politics I, 1254]. Thus he gave legitimacy to merchants, and to the deep involvement of the Church in the birth of free enterprise. [Stephen P Bensch, *Historiography: Medieval European and Mediterranean Slavery 1998, p 231; Cf. Victory of Reason, Rodney Stark, Random House, p 57,58, 254].

Randall Collins has noted that innovation and specialization in the monastic estates was “a version of the developed characteristics of capitalism itself… the dynamism of the medieval economy was primarily that of the Church.” [Randall Collins, *The Sociology of Philosophies: A Global Theory of Intellectual Change, 1998, Cambridge: Harvard University Press, p 47].

The reader might notice that the life expectancy of people in the West has taken tremendous leaps since the 1800s. Why? Because in the West the free market system has discovered ways to create wealth. Much of that created wealth goes into the paychecks of households and is spent on medical care. But where did the medical care come from? It comes from the fact that some people and the “evil” corporations take their discretionary income and save it. This money is then used to develop diagnostic medical equipment, medicines, and surgical equipment, and support medical schools which train practitioners who are able to use these great things for the health of every patient. This is apart from the huge increases in living standards from the poverty before free enterprise was developed.
See Dr William Luckey (*Back To Nature September 25, 2009):
[drwilliamluckey.com/index.cfm/Economics-Errors]

 

[ERose]

Great post Abu!!!

 

[Abu]

ERose
Thank you. May I congratulate you on your posts, especially post #141?
How strange that the facts on Galileo are still not known, nor the fact that the Catholic Church built Western Civilization and that “The rise of science was not an extension of classical learning. It was the natural outgrowth of Christian doctrine: nature exists because it was created by God. In order to love and honor God, it is necessary to fully appreciate his handiwork. Because God is perfect, his handiwork functions in accord with immutable principles. By the full use of our God-given powers of reason and observation, it ought to be possible to discover these principles.

“These were the crucial ideas that explain why science arose in Christian Europe and nowhere else.” The Victory of Reason, Rodney Stark, Random House, 2005, p 22-23]

 

[Sandy_Kay]

Hello,

I was reading in my AP European History textbook about the beginning of socialism in England in the 1800s, and I was curious why socialism is bad by the Church’s teachings. I see how socialism (allegedly) helps the poor and needy, and everyone would be doing things equal. Is it because we wouldn’t have freedom of religion? Help me out please, I’m not trying to be a heretic, just I’m curious to know why socialism is bad. I already know why socialism is bad in terms of euthanasia, but I’m ignorant in other areas.

Thanks!

The biggest problem I see with socialism is that it makes the government “Our benevolent Father” instead of God!

 

[Pitcharan]

ERose;6871387:

I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree. You point out in your post the two commandments of love/charity. These I agree with. The difference between Socialism and the Christian Ideal is that Christians are called to charity out of love for our neighbor. Socialism on the other hand preceives an injustice that someone has wealth and another does not. So it takes the wealth of the one that has and distributes it to those that it says has no wealth. The spirit of the 10th commandment is to protect one’s right to have possessions: property, home, wealth, wife, children, etc. In every place that socialism is introduced it is first introduced amongst the poor as a means of correcting an injustice. It wants to establish two classes: The “haves” and “have-nots”. Then it fires up the “have-nots” against the “haves” and a revolution whether bloody or not occurs. If this is not preaching coveting I do not know what is.

You are mixing my posts with those of MONK. In fact my first post went on to clearly explain why Socialism is bad despite embracing many or most of the ten commandments. So, we partly agree to agree. The disagreement is only on certain statements you made which I felt were factually incorrect…

I do not know the situation in your country, but here in the USA there are no true unfair laws to lift the rich up and keep the poor down.

Many of the rich here in the USA at one time or another were either poor or middleclass and worked their way up. Anyone in this country has the right to start their own business. What they do with it afterwards is up to them.In my first post itself I have clearly pointed out criminal backslide of communist goverments as well as the excellent job done in many capitalist countries practising socialist values and being welfare states.

To summarize there is a huge difference between Charity (Christian) and Mandate or Law (Socialism).

Socialism was born because of criminal exploitation of the poor by an unholy alliance of the clergy and the ruling elite. They failed in countries were they turned out to be far worse than those who condemned the rich to death at the guillotine.

Strange but the law that Nixon put forth to create a new health for profit scheme did a pretty good job of helping the rich drug and insurance companies. Also the bill to help seniors with their drugs that G.W. B. sighned just made a lot of congressmen rich and the seniors ended up paying more.
Try to take a look at Michael Moore’s " Sicko" might wake you up to what is going on in your country.

Every country will go thro this: one evil will replace another and gradually all evil will vanish. His kingdom is growing and shall never end.

 

[Abu]

Sandy Kay
I already know why socialism is bad in terms of euthanasia, but I’m ignorant in other areas.

What will help is to learn sound economics and the sound teaching of the Church on free enterprise. Economic laws are based on the principles of human action – of cause and effect involving God-given reason and will requiring scientific research and study, but are unlike the laws of physics which do not rely on reason and will for effect. So constants do not apply to economic laws as they do for physics. Economics is predictive and comparative, not absolute as in physics. [Dr Thomas E Woods, *The Church And The Market, Lexington Books, 2005, p 31].

The wisdom of the Church is not to let a higher group do what a lower group is capable of doing. For instance families, businessmen, and doctors are capable of carrying on their own affairs without being taken over by the government. But there is a political slant in the air today that things are done by private people who are greedy, selfish and care for no one but themselves. Therefore, they always look to government for the solution. Is the government that trustworthy? It seems that many do not care as long as they can get the taxpayer to pay for what they want. At any rate, the standard social principle of the Church is called SUBSIDIARITY. Look the term up for more information.

The socialism that is condemned by Pius XI in Quadragesimo Anno, 1931 has the following false theories:

1. The Welfare State as the supreme objective.
2. Everything belongs to the State, thus excluding the real rights to private property.
3. The elimination of free enterprise in favour of state-controlled production and distribution.
4. Denounced the principle of subsidiarity.

Socialism is opposed to the body of economic thought based on the freedom of the individual and the right to own private property. It embodies various political philosophies that support social and economic equality, collective decision-making, and public (state) control of productive capital and natural resources and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods, as advocated by socialists, and Karl Marx claimed that this would be achieved via class struggle and a proletarian revolution and become the transitional stage from what he called “capitalism”, to communism. He predicted the demise of “capitalism” in his “law” of the diminishing returns on capital! Socialists criticise what they consider as the excessive poverty and inequality of the Industrial Revolution, and advocate reform via the egalitarian distribution of wealth and the transformation of society to small communities without private property. It is a system of ideas and tendencies at odds with human nature.

Socialism has been condemned in Encyclicals by Popes Leo XIII and Pius XI and its disastrous effects were a major factor in the demise of the Soviet Union.

Leo XIII asserts: “…the socialists, working on the poor man’s envy of the rich, are striving to do away with private property, and contend that individual possessions should become the common property of all, to be administered by the State or by municipal bodies.” Rerum Novarum, #4]. Similarly John Paul II condemns socialism for precisely this among other errors, in Centesimus Annus, making a frank acknowledgement that socialism has failed on its own terms as witnessed by events in Eastern Europe.

“Even the Church in its theological debates uses philosophical language and concepts developed by the great, and frequently pagan, thinkers.

“But how did this wisdom get around? It got around because some folks had excess wealth to finance the development of schools to educate thinkers. The early Church Fathers were very educated men. The money of dedicated people sponsored schools which they attended. Think about it: one cannot spend time getting the required learning if one has to put food on the table. Learning requires leisure. Leisure is purchased for the student by someone else. That someone else gives that money to the student or the school, or both, so that the student and teachers do not have to spend their time putting food on the table by farming, or working in an asphalt plant (as yours truly once did) and the like. This means that someone in the society has to have discretionary funds. If we all lived in a subsistence mode, there would be no discretionary funds, and there would be no learning, no churches, no artists.”
See Dr William Luckey (*Back To Nature September 25, 2009):
[drwilliamluckey.com/index.cfm/Economics-Errors]

The Catholic stress on individualism was foreign to many cultures, and Jeremy Waldron, in God, Locke and Equality, 2002, affirms that Locke built his thesis on the doctrine concerning morality; “returning to the standpoint of St Thomas and the Scholastics.” (The Catholic Church And the Counter-Faith, Philip Trower, Family Publications, 2006, p 74).

 

[Abu]

Sandy Kay
I already know why socialism is bad in terms of euthanasia, but I’m ignorant in other areas.

My apologies to Sandy Kay. The quote is from John Monaco to whom the above remarks are addressed.

 

[Limbo]

In the middle ages the church was eventually ideologically married to the concept of feudalism, the dominant economic and political system of the time.

During the monarchical period the church found its new partners, the royal families of Europe.

From the time of the industrial revolution and the advent of capitalism, the churches, (now including the Protestant churches), changed marriage partners and now many (not all) of their exponents believe capitalism is in one way or another ordained by God.

One thing most of the organized churches have in common: they stand Christ’s teachings on their head in order to make excuses for the dominance of the poor by the rich. They used to do the same for feudalism and monarchism. The arguments have changed, but the goal remains, apparently, the same: Don’t make waves.

Many have abandoned Christianity because of these multiple marriages. But Christ was more than this, in fact was not this, at all. So despite the above, at least a glimmer of hope remains. But not much.

 

[Limbo]

Sad to see that you are signing off on this one Limbo since it is obvious from your post that you need proper instruction on the teachings of the Church you claim to be part of.

1st in the USA there is a separation of church and state. So there is no combining Christianity with economics except in attempting to enforce morality within the system, which has been done through laws and through those that work within the system.

2nd: So you are saying that it is Love to TAKE what little I or anyone else earns and give it to someone else that did not earn it? My church teaches that we should give freely or be a cheerful giver. I cannot be a giver unless it is me that is giving. I did not say that it is wrong to give to the poor even those that do not earn what they have. I am saying that for me to be Christian it must be me that gives. I cannot give if it is taken away from me and given to whoever.

3rd: The church is infallible in the teachings of morality and dogma. It is not infallible when it comes to science since science is outside the range of religion. It looks like you have an issue with authority within the church which is the greatest problem in modern Catholicism due to the progressive movement. Remember we are called to obedience in things concerning morality and dogma. Socialism is not a teaching of Dogma by the church so chin up you can be a socialist and Catholic without risk to your eternal soul. It just doesn’t make you right though. Also you need to do more research concerning the Church and Galileo, Science and Evolution. What you find may surprise you. Don’t just take what anti-Christians and anti-Catholics at face value and do your own research. If you want to attack these three points start threads on each one in the Philosophy section.

1. Having seen this, I just could not sign off. (This time, however, I will.) First, I never claimed I was part of the church. I was strongly considering conversion, but having seen so much of this type of thinking on this forum, it appears, probably, that conversion would be the wrong thing for me to do.
2. I do not accept that the Catholic church (which members of it?? Is it truly a unity? I think not) is infallible in every matter of morality. This issue is far from agreement by all Catholics - that the church is infallible in all matters of morality.

 

[jewells17]

Google…“My Catholic Faith” and go to the one that shows the contenst of this book. You can read almost the whole thing online. It is incredible.

 

[jewells17]

It is called “My Catholic Faith” and google it and click on the one that says “contents”…it can be read online. It’s really worthwhile to read through this.

 

[estesbob]

1. Having seen this, I just could not sign off. (This time, however, I will.) First, I never claimed I was part of the church. I was strongly considering conversion, but having seen so much of this type of thinking on this forum, it appears, probably, that conversion would be the wrong thing for me to do.
2. I do not accept that the Catholic church (which members of it?? Is it truly a unity? I think not) is infallible in every matter of morality. This issue is far from agreement by all Catholics - that the church is infallible in all matters of morality.

The prpblem with this debae is that the socalism apologists always describe a socialism that works great on paper but always fails in practice with a version of capitalism that looks terrible on paper but has great benefits for all when practiced

 

[anthony022071]

In the middle ages the church was eventually ideologically married to the concept of feudalism, the dominant economic and political system of the time.

During the monarchical period the church found its new partners, the royal families of Europe.

From the time of the industrial revolution and the advent of capitalism, the churches, (now including the Protestant churches), changed marriage partners and now many (not all) of their exponents believe capitalism is in one way or another ordained by God.

One thing most of the organized churches have in common: they stand Christ’s teachings on their head in order to make excuses for the dominance of the poor by the rich. They used to do the same for feudalism and monarchism. The arguments have changed, but the goal remains, apparently, the same: Don’t make waves.

Many have abandoned Christianity because of these multiple marriages. But Christ was more than this, in fact was not this, at all. So despite the above, at least a glimmer of hope remains. But not much.

Feudalism and capitalism are not as dangerous to society and the Church as socialism is. They don’t involve an all-powerful centralized government that has its hand in every aspect of life and usurps the natural responsibilities and freedoms of individuals,families,communities and churches. They don’t undermine religion and the sense of natural law to the extent that socialism does. They don’t suppress the truth.

 

[ERose]

In the middle ages the church was eventually ideologically married to the concept of feudalism, the dominant economic and political system of the time.

During the monarchical period the church found its new partners, the royal families of Europe.

From the time of the industrial revolution and the advent of capitalism, the churches, (now including the Protestant churches), changed marriage partners and now many (not all) of their exponents believe capitalism is in one way or another ordained by God.

One thing most of the organized churches have in common: they stand Christ’s teachings on their head in order to make excuses for the dominance of the poor by the rich. They used to do the same for feudalism and monarchism. The arguments have changed, but the goal remains, apparently, the same: Don’t make waves.

Many have abandoned Christianity because of these multiple marriages. But Christ was more than this, in fact was not this, at all. So despite the above, at least a glimmer of hope remains. But not much.

Glad to see you back Limbo. But one question. Where do you get this information from? And do you really believe this mess?

If it wasn’t for the Catholic Church and it’s teachings there would be no hospitals, universities, schools of any kind, no true judical system, no science, no women rights, etc., etc., etc. All of these things and more would not have happen without the Catholic Church. Read history from unbias history books and stop reading the proproganda you have been reading and studying.

I do not mean to upset you on this subject, but you are terribly mis-informed.

 

[ERose]

1. Having seen this, I just could not sign off. (This time, however, I will.) First, I never claimed I was part of the church. I was strongly considering conversion, but having seen so much of this type of thinking on this forum, it appears, probably, that conversion would be the wrong thing for me to do.
2. I do not accept that the Catholic church (which members of it?? Is it truly a unity? I think not) is infallible in every matter of morality. This issue is far from agreement by all Catholics - that the church is infallible in all matters of morality.

I am sorry to hear you are now looking away from the Truth. But in my opinion it is better for you to fully understand what you are getting into than to join the Church and not follow it’s teachings as you should. Hopefully in some time you will change your mind and fully embrace the teachings of the Catholic Church. I will pray for you.

 

[zenblue102]

You link socialism and euthanasia…that is quite a Fox News Sarah Palin Death Panel induced leap…help me to understand your thought process…I lived in a European country that was a socialist democracy and I don’t recall anyone practicing euthanasia??? They simply taxed everyone an equal rate higher than what we pay here, however, no one paid for school, university, health care, toll roads etc…all the things we need. The tax rate was applied equally with no loopholes or deductions. Seemed pretty fair to me. Everyone chipped in an equal percentage and everyone’s basic needs were met. Where’s the problem??? Where’s the conflict with Christ’s teachings?? I think many here are discussing something other than what I experienced living in a country with a socialist system. Perhaps they have heard “scary stories” from certain news channels or politicians. I simply request that you stop commenting on what you do not know~Please?

 

[estesbob]

You link socialism and euthanasia…that is quite a Fox News Sarah Palin Death Panel induced leap…help me to understand your thought process…I lived in a European country that was a socialist democracy and I don’t recall anyone practicing euthanasia??? They simply taxed everyone an equal rate higher than what we pay here, however, no one paid for school, university, health care, toll roads etc…all the things we need. The tax rate was applied equally with no loopholes or deductions. Seemed pretty fair to me. Everyone chipped in an equal percentage and everyone’s basic needs were met. Where’s the problem??? Where’s the conflict with Christ’s teachings?? I think many here are discussing something other than what I experienced living in a country with a socialist system. Perhaps they have heard “scary stories” from certain news channels or politicians. I simply request that you stop commenting on what you do not know~Please?

I am not aware of any European Country that has a flat tax. Could you tell us where this paradise on earth is? And why, pray tell, did you leave such a paradise for the USA?

 

[Black_Rose]

Glad to see you back Limbo. But one question. Where do you get this information from? And do you really believe this mess?

If it wasn’t for the Catholic Church and it’s teachings there would be no hospitals, universities, schools of any kind, no true judical system, no science, no women rights, etc., etc., etc. All of these things and more would not have happen without the Catholic Church. Read history from unbias history books and stop reading the proproganda you have been reading and studying.

I do not mean to upset you on this subject, but you are terribly mis-informed.

How are those absent in oriental civilization as it wasn’t significantly influenced by the Church or Christianity in general.