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Black_Rose
Guest
Why was there 25% unemployment during the Great Depression if work was available?
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Robert_Sock
Guest
Wouldn’t it be a big letdown if the World-to-Come used capitalism as an economic system? Of course, the World-to-Come will not have an economic system because we will be living in glorified bodies that will not require maintenance or have needs of any sort except the spiritual grace from God. Picture this and know that the economic system here on earth is going to be dependent on the functioning of society as a whole. So, whereas capitalism may be required in this day and age here in America, know that things will likely change where we will need to adapt to another economic system like that of socialism. And, God willing, things are going to change!
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athair_siochain
Guest
Christ spoke to the multitude.
only a selfish greedy person thinks of themselves…
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athair_siochain
Guest
Has anyone ever trained a parrot to talk. I have one that can answer questions. the questions and answers will always be the same , its much the same with humans their minds are programmed, and are difficult to change without re/education, so many on this thread use Communism as a tool to put down Socialism,
Capitalism, Communism both exploit those who do the real work,
Why do we have to have a system that forces people to “work for a living”? the answer is we dont know any other way, we even have to work to get to heaven. I am sure most of those on this thread will see that as a stupid question,
We all are supposed to work under a Capitalistic System, yet the System creates tens of Trillions of Dollars every decade for landlords and moneylenders through invented property equity, when property values fall after the equity has been turned into cash , you find young families are being made pay real money towards their mortgages owned by landlords and moneylenders.
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TheRealJuliane
Guest
I am talking about odd jobs, harvesting crops, doing real physical WORK. I am not talking about white-collar jobs in offices, I am talking about hard physical work. Read The Grapes of Wrath, that book is pretty near to true for what people went through. It was tough times but still, people WORKED and had their pride and dignity. No one wanted to take charity, and there was no unemployment insurance.
I am not saying it was easy, and believe me, I have heard the stories, since my father became a teenager old enough to work the harvest in 1930. But men did work and were proud of that, and were ashamed to have to take from anyone because it said to the world that they could not provide for their families.
We’ve lost much of that through government welfare programs that kill men’s pride and spirit. It is good to work, it is what we need to do in order to keep our heads up and giving to people without a requirement for work in exchange is a bad thing.
Jesus said, “The poor will always be with you,” and they are, no matter how much money we try to throw at them. As always, most of the money is spent on bureaucracy and wasted on foolishness.
The Church is supposed to be the mechanism to care for widows and orphans. We work, we receive our wages, we tithe to the church, the church helps care for those who don’t have anyone to care for them. We also do mission work or ministries to help out. Simple, isn’t it?
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Cruxis117
Guest
I don’t understand how you can interpret “helping out those who cannot help themselves, or are victims of circumstance, or are given the right to actually “live” and have health care to help them continue to live”, into “killing men’s pride and spirit”. And certainly, Jesus spoke rather poorly of pride, did he not? Humility and Generosity go hand in hand. And yes, you are right, the poor will always be with us. But does that mean we just accept that and don’t worry about them, because God will take care of them? Not at all! That’s foolish talk.
It is not about turning the government into God, it is about having elected a government, which is composed of people, helping other people. What a shocker! Let me guess, you thought the government was made up of sorcerers attempting to become deities, not actual people who are chosen by other people to help them survive and to protect them from harm and from suffering. Certainly, having actually elected a group of people to aid us is not wrong. Compare this to Transnational Corporations like Wal-Mart and McDonalds that rob the wealth of the areas that they are situated in, and distribute it amongst their CEOs and upper level people.
You tell us that if we let Corporations get rich, they will give us a share of the wealth and this would mean that we should not have the Government get involved. Yet we see in the latest recession of 2008-onwards that the companies that in the U.S. were given all of these rights and all of these freedoms to make money, actually brought the economy to near ruin. Furthermore, they take the bailout money meant to help others, and use it for themselves. Surely, this is a perfect example of how spectacularly capitalism fails. Fair Trade, not Free Trade.
Also, it is expected by next year, the Canadian Dollar (Canada, which has Socialistic Programs such as universal health care, welfare programs, etc. You know, helping it’s citizens) will be worth more than the American Dollar (ca.news.finance.yahoo.com/s/14102010/2/biz-finance-loonie-hit-parity-coming-hair-s-breadth-wednesday.html). But wait! If Capitalism worked, then you wouldn’t have such a thing! Countries that adopt anything Socialist become Communist and don’t even have a market! (Funnily enough, “Communist” China has one of the fastest growing markets in the world, which effectively makes it Fascist, not Communist).
We elect people to the Government to lead us, to protect us, and to help us, because that is their job. Not to stand by and promote laws that help Big Corporations while the people who are actually doing all of the work are pushed down. We are to have a market, where people are free to buy what they choose, but we should have the Government regulate the economy in order to prevent things like the Great Depression (which was only ended by the beginning of World War II). We should have people work and earn their wages, but also realize that they are not merely “consumers” but citizens of the land, people with equal rights who deserve to live just as much as anyone else. It is known that the best governments are Democratic Socialist, not Capitalist (Like the U.S., Chile under the American Backed Pinochet regime, Venezuela, so on and so forth). Government works to protect the rights of it’s citizens, citizens work to propel society, and equality and freedom is protected and actually enforced (meaning that those who wish to restrict certain rights or freedoms, such as Communist or Fascist governments (Fascist governments on the far right of the spectrum, close to the Conservative ideology (does this mean that Conservatives will become Fascists?)). It’s simple, isn’t it?
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TheRealJuliane
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Socialists always twist things and go to extremes. Your post above is a complete distortion of what I said. I will always disagree with your perspective because I base mine on what the Bible tells us, not in some utopian vision of equality. Enforced charity DOES NOT WORK. The colonists who first arrived on the east coast found that out - they tried collectivism and many of them died before they figured out that people will not work unless they can keep the products that they have labored for. We are moving in that direction now, with higher taxes for the people who keep this country running, the small businesses. When you punish the producers by taking more of what they work to earn, they will eventually stop. It really is human nature, and there is nothing wrong with that.
Your assumption is that government intervention is always good and that corporations are always bad. That is socialism at its core, and socialism is merely one step along the way to communism. So do you support ending up with a communist State in charge of every aspect of your life?
“We elect people to the Government to lead us, to protect us, and to help us, because that is their job.” No, that is NOT their job, it is their job to protect us from foreign invasion, follow the Constitution and stay the hell out of our way! Your god is the government, it’s obvious, when you make such a statement. GOD is to lead us, GOD protects us and GOD helps us. Each man is to come to God and not an institution of man for sustenance. We are to WORK to care for ourselves, our families, and then help the Church to take care of others who cannot help themselves. Nowhere in that is there a statement that we are free to ignore those who TRULY cannot help themselves. Right now we have a lot of people in this country who certainly COULD help themselves but have been trained to look to the government to provide for them. Even those who are handicapped would prefer to work and feel that sense of ownership and pride that comes from doing your part and not just sitting on your behind and collecting a check.
talk to the others in this kind forum, I am done with you.
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homosapien15
Guest
Cruxis, I’m with you here. Consistently Abu and Julian call into question the religious beliefs of those posting in defense of Socialism, and that’s frankly wrong. Since my last reply, he are my issues to address.
Government: No one has said government is god, and neither does a socialist society require it. Government is put in place to allow a few to be able to fairly guide, protect, and provide for all the rest that have placed them there. It’s basic social contract theory. If the government isn’t going to care for people, who do they have left on Earth? Even today I watched a program on the Civil Rights movement and religious people condemned MLK Jr. as disturbing the peace and natural order. Consistency breeds complacency.
Socialism: Again, no one here is advocating for fascism, communism, oligarchies, dictators, or the like. A socialist country’s political structure is fashioned just like most others, people elect their leaders, have legislative and judicial branches, the whole 9 yards. We are talking about moderate socialism, where the government is making sure everyone has access to basic needs in such a modern society. It’s more than food, shelter, and clothing…it’s healthcare, employment, transport to employment, etc. Capitalism has only gone on to perpetuate greed, profit margins are off the charts, and the poor get poorer.
The Church: Abu you stated that I’m against Christ’s Church with my views. I’m sorry, I always thought we strove to follow Christ, regardless of what his Church may say. We have a wonderful world, wonderful technologies and abilities, and they’ve been squandered and kept for only a few. As I post this thread on a computer, people are living without electricity and running water, but don’t fear…we support free enterprise and rely on people to choose to help these people. Bottom line is, the Church has been wrong in the past, and I would think on the Catholic Answers forums you could be more polite with regard to people’s views. It’s one thing to correct with Church teaching, another to strike someone down as an enemy of it.
Government: No one has said government is god, and neither does a socialist society require it. Government is put in place to allow a few to be able to fairly guide, protect, and provide for all the rest that have placed them there. It’s basic social contract theory. If the government isn’t going to care for people, who do they have left on Earth? Even today I watched a program on the Civil Rights movement and religious people condemned MLK Jr. as disturbing the peace and natural order. Consistency breeds complacency.
Socialism: Again, no one here is advocating for fascism, communism, oligarchies, dictators, or the like. A socialist country’s political structure is fashioned just like most others, people elect their leaders, have legislative and judicial branches, the whole 9 yards. We are talking about moderate socialism, where the government is making sure everyone has access to basic needs in such a modern society. It’s more than food, shelter, and clothing…it’s healthcare, employment, transport to employment, etc. Capitalism has only gone on to perpetuate greed, profit margins are off the charts, and the poor get poorer.
The Church: Abu you stated that I’m against Christ’s Church with my views. I’m sorry, I always thought we strove to follow Christ, regardless of what his Church may say. We have a wonderful world, wonderful technologies and abilities, and they’ve been squandered and kept for only a few. As I post this thread on a computer, people are living without electricity and running water, but don’t fear…we support free enterprise and rely on people to choose to help these people. Bottom line is, the Church has been wrong in the past, and I would think on the Catholic Answers forums you could be more polite with regard to people’s views. It’s one thing to correct with Church teaching, another to strike someone down as an enemy of it.
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Cruxis117
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Whatever you wish to do, you may do. I’m not going to chase you around. We have our own personal opinions and political ideologies, based upon our experiences. While I completely disagree with you, I do find that your “Troll” thread was a rather immature and indirect attempt to say that I and others are not Catholic, when in actuality, I am, very much so. I don’t see the word Capitalism in the Bible or in the Catechism, and in actuality, there are Catholic Priests who say rather plainly that Capitalism fails.
I presented my case, and many people who understand the terms Communism, Socialism, and Capitalism, and Facism, agree with me. Likewise, many who do not, or many who still hold to Capitalism, agree with you. So, basically, you can gladly be done with me. I will pray that you stay well, and that if you do (Lord Forbid) suffer an injury or a sickness, and cannot afford the treatments or hospital care and have to choose between that or your home or your children’s educational future, (which almost could never happen, or at least to that extent in a Socialist Country) that God does provide for you when you are unable to provide for yourself, and that you feel proud of it. I likewise, will remain in my convictions as a faithful Catholic and as a staunch supporter of the elimination of Abortion as well as of Democratic Socialism. Peace be with you, may the Lord watch over you and us all.
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Cruxis117
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I’m glad to have you with me, it can be hard to discuss some topics alone without any help, and your aid is much appreciated.
And BTW, does this not sound Socialistic?
'Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others" (1 Cor. 10:24).
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Abu
Guest
You have revealed the tragedy of too many Catholics, often expressed on Catholic DBs – “the Church has been wrong in the past” and there is never any basis for such prejudice against Her doctrine. Thinking that Christ’s Church has been wrong in Her doctrine in teaching the nature of man and upholding the laws established in human nature founded on the principles of human action – of cause and effect involving God-given reason, is false. That is why She supports freedom of economic initiative as a fundamental human right.
Despite the words of Christ in Mt 18:17 (Post #695), you still cling to the idea that a “rigidity of dogma” caused you to freely choose to leave His Church, yet you then complain when you are shown to be against Christ.
Such confusion and dissent helps the forces of evil to divide and conquer. That is why so many cling to liberation theology concepts condemned by the Church and reflected in a class struggle and a hatred of all who are successful in creating wealth with others, and in working with others to employ that wealth for the common good.
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Abu
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The inanity never stops! Funny that the word socialism isn’t there either. Of course using the term “capitalism” as a whipping boy is merely following Karl Marx and his class prejudices.
That some priests are befuddled, like Fr Baum, is very clear, as The Entrepreneurial Vocation, by Rev. Robert A. Sirico reveals:
“An obvious reason for this ignorance is the astonishing lack of any economics training in virtually all seminaries. It is rare to find a single course explaining fundamental economic principles, the complicated world of stock trading, or microeconomic dynamics. Seminarians are accustomed to hearing in most social ethics courses the empty slogans of liberation theology proponents who believe that developed nations exploit less-developed nations, thus keeping them in a perpetual state of poverty.8 Generally, these arguments are put forth by theologians with little grasp of economics.”
Note:
“8 According to Gregory Baum, then professor of theology and religious studies at St. Michael’s College, University of Toronto, “… the economic dependence of the Latin American countries on the system of corporate capitalism, with its center in the North Atlantic community and more especially in the U.S.A., has not only led to the impoverishment of the mass of the population in the city and country but also affected the cultural and educational institutions and through them the consciousness of the people in general.” The Social Imperative: Essays on the Critical Issues That Confront the Christian Churches (New York: Paulist Press, 1979), 10.”
It’s from such an ideologue as this that the confusion arises.
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Cruxis117
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Weird, It seems that most of the teachings of Christ sound socialistic to me. You know, the common good, equality, etc. Ultimately, this is what you are proposing to be in line with Church teaching:
Capitalism: Favors the individual Good over the Common Good.
Socialism: Favors both the Individual Good and the Common Good
Communism: Favors the Common Good.
Frankly, if anyone seems to be uneducated, it’s those who haven’t seen what a shambles of an economy the U.S. happens to have, nor what history has shown with any application of Capitalism that goes beyond merely the choice to buy what you wish. It becomes a thing which takes power away from the Government and the People, and places it to the Multi-Million Dollar Transnational Corporations. You have a choice, give power to the people, or to the Rich. It’s either a Democracy or a Plutonomy.
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markbrumbaugh
Guest
I truly wish this thread would die. None of us are going to convince the socialists that we capitalists are not mean spirited, evil men, taking more of the world’s wealth than we need.
I keep thinking one of the socialists will see the light.
But there is nothing one can do for another who cannot utilize history, reason, logic and an understanding of human nature, to determine that capitalism, with the ills it has, has still generated the best standard of living for the most people. Without capitalists, we would not have running water, radio and television, electricity, warm homes, transportation, computers, the internet, ready supply of foods at reasonable prices right around the corner…etc. on ad finitum.
All these conveniences have elevated the standard of living of the “common man” much more so than the “rich fat cats” who had all they wanted with or without the services they invented, risked their lives to develop, financed, and created multitudes of jobs so employees could buy those goods.
Lets give it up and hope the majority elect folks who will be true to our constitution.
I keep thinking one of the socialists will see the light.
But there is nothing one can do for another who cannot utilize history, reason, logic and an understanding of human nature, to determine that capitalism, with the ills it has, has still generated the best standard of living for the most people. Without capitalists, we would not have running water, radio and television, electricity, warm homes, transportation, computers, the internet, ready supply of foods at reasonable prices right around the corner…etc. on ad finitum.
All these conveniences have elevated the standard of living of the “common man” much more so than the “rich fat cats” who had all they wanted with or without the services they invented, risked their lives to develop, financed, and created multitudes of jobs so employees could buy those goods.
Lets give it up and hope the majority elect folks who will be true to our constitution.
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portarica
Guest
I think you are right, now that corporations have the same constitutional right rights as real people when it comes to electioneering we are more likely to get more people elected who are truer to the newest interpretations of our Constitution .
And all the wealth generated by those bright guys who invented the great algorithms that made derivatives such job generators and those great services that wall street provides so that all those towns closing up in middle America and the south will rise again with jobs for all.
Oh wait, that is confusing capitalism with corporatism. I thought you were talking about how the old system was great at generating wealth and jobs, you didn’t really mean the monetization of assets and the shifting of jobs for most manufacturing to Asia. Or did you?
Peace
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Cruxis117
Guest
That’s rather ironic, because we think the exact same thing about you Capitalists. Except that all of those things that “Capitalists were needed to have in the first place” are, due to the very system you adhere to, unreachable to a good portion of the world.
Furthermore, it is not that I see that “Capitalists are mean-spirited evil men”. Not at all. I do believe that a regulated form of Capitalism is needed in society. But not a pure form, not something that the U.S. has. Frankly, in case if you haven’t noticed, where are the focus points of the two most recent Economic Crises of the last hundred, two hundred years? In the U.S., both with the recession and with the Great Depression.
I just don’t like it where the “Socialists are evil men who HAVE TO BECOME COMMUNIST”. It’s like saying Conservatives have to become Fascist. It’s ridiculous.
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homosapien15
Guest
Now I’m against Christ! This isn’t even about the topic anymore, you’re condemning people based off of their opinions. What’s next? Am I going to Hell because I play with the notion of Socialism in the world? This thread is about socialism and Church teaching, and you keep making this an issue of socialists vs the Church. I said Church teaching has been changed and wrong for a simple reason… not to discredit, but to remind everyone that it’s happened. There’s no reason why the Church couldn’t come to accept socialism in moderate forms, but you seem to think it’s impossible. You’re not debating the issue anymore, you’re condemning the debaters.
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Abu
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False – and mocking the wisdom of the Church in outright condemnation of socialism – “I likewise, will remain in my convictions as a faithful Catholic” (post #709). How faithful!
Nothing shows the ignorance abroad better than the above which presumes that free enterprise economic laws cause depressions instead of the foolish shenanigans of governments and central bank officials. Whereas nothing ever done according to socialist philosophy has enabled or can enable the wealth creation and distribution achieved by following free enterprise laws. Nothing is so obvious as the refusal to face reality in the fact of the untold millions enabled to participate in wealth creation and escape from dire poverty. The results of the machinations of politicians and bureaucrats is blissfully unknown or blithely ignored.
Face Reality
Unlike the sharp depression of 1920-21 which was sensibly handled, the Great Depression was caused by pumping money into the economy.
Alan Greenspan has highlighted the “excess credit which the Fed pumped into the economy," resulting, finally, in an American economic collapse. The collapse of which Greenspan wrote was, of course, the Great Depression beginning in 1929 and extending, mostly, until 1941. This judgment which Greenspan makes about the “excess credit” that directly brought about the Great Depression was made in a 1966 article in Ayn Rand’s Objectivist magazine and subsequently republished in Rand’s Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal.[2]
[2] Alan Greenspan, “Gold and Economic Freedom” in Ayn Rand’s Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal (New York: Penguin, 1987), pp. 20ff.
As Federal Reserve chairman between 1987 and 2006, Greenspan acted even more irresponsibly than the Fed officials he was criticizing. Rather than, “sopping up the excess reserves,” Greenspan added even more, transforming a stock market bubble into a housing and consumer spending bubble of historic and unprecedented proportions.[3]
[3] Peter Schiff, *Crash Proof: How to Profit from the Coming Economic Collapse *(Hoboken, NJ: John Wiley & Sons, Inc., 2007), pp. xiii-xiv.
[From Peter Chojnowski, Ph.D].
It is so convenient to ignore the facts when it suits.
The reader might notice that the life expectancy of people in the West has taken tremendous leaps since the 1800s. Why? Because in the West the free market system has discovered ways to create wealth. Much of that created wealth goes into the paychecks of households and is spent on medical care. But where did the medical care come from? It comes from the fact that some people and the “evil” corporations take their discretionary income and save it. This money is then used to develop diagnostic medical equipment, medicines, and surgical equipment, and support medical schools which train practitioners who are able to use these great things for the health of every patient. This is apart from the huge increases in living standards from the poverty before free enterprise was developed.
[See Dr William Luckey: http://www.drwilliamluckey.com/index.cfm/Economics-Errors]
The wisdom of the Church is not to let a higher group do what a lower group is capable of doing. For instance families, businessmen, and doctors are capable of carrying on their own affairs without being taken over by the government. But there is a political slant in the air today that things are done by private people who are greedy, selfish and care for no one but themselves. Therefore, they always look to government for the solution. Is the government that trustworthy? It seems that many do not care as long as they can get the taxpayer to pay for what they want. Providentially, the standard social principle of the Church is called SUBSIDIARITY.
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Black_Rose
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Did you read The Grapes of Wrath yourself or even a summary of the book?
The Grapes of Wrath was a negative portray of the travails that faced by agricultural workers. In fact, John Steinbeck was criticized as a “socialist” for writing it. The book most certainly does not support your romanticism for a system of government that preceded the progressive welfare-statist reforms of the New Deal when the Church allegedly provided adequate support for the orphans and widows.
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