Why is socialism bad by Church teaching?

[Sandy_Kay]

To judge all rich people as selfish, greedy, evil people is a sin. It is just as much a sin as judging all poor people as lazy, no good drug addicts. That is the greatest reason socialism is condemned by the church. There may be some greedy evil rich people as well as lazy drug addicted poor people but it isn’t for us to judge others. We can judge right from wrong. We know it is wrong to be greedy or lazy but only God can judge the intentions of a person, the life circumstances that brought them to their condition, only God can judge a human heart. Socialism judges rich people as evil, justifying the confiscation and redistribution of what is rightfully theirs. That is evil.
Capitalism for the sole purpose of hoarding wealth is condemned by the church. There are many rich people who take great joy at seeing their employees being able to provide for their families. They also loose sleep over the fear of becoming unprofitable and having to lay employees off of work. Many also take great satisfaction when they contribute large sums to many charities. They also find joy in spending their wealth, knowing that doing so puts many other people to work. If you believe all rich people are evil, you have a jaded view of people. That jaded view doesn’t justify stealing what isn’t yours and giving it to those you judge to be more deserving of it. That view is just as jaded as some people’s view that would deny poor people help because they are lazy. There may be some lazy people who brought poverty on themselves but it isn’t ours to judge. It is for us to help as much as we can regardless of why they are poor.
There is a vast difference between providing for the basic needs of the poor and making laws to protect basic workers rights and socialism. A just government would use some of its tax dollars to provide for the needs of the poor and make laws protecting workers rights. It crosses the line into socialism when for the sake of envy, it seeks to level the playing field until no one is permitted to have more than anyone else. Thou shall not covet thy neighbors goods. Coveting thy neighbors goods is a sin. Socialism is a sin.

If you are an employee,then you are voluntarily subject to your employer,and you have submitted yourself to whatever pay and hours he gives you. You’re not being forced into slavery. You can always quit. It doesn’t take heavy-handed government regulation to get employers to treat their workers fairly,it takes the moral persuasion of the Church.

 

[PeterdiRomaII]

It’s an injustice that American HS students are as manipulated and propogandized to accept the moral and theological superiority of capitalism, as Chinese students are taught the superiority of Mao’s ideology. Social-Democracy is an ideology born to operate within the American free market system James Madison in Federalists 10 detailed how “self-interest,” powers human kind’s entrepeneurism, but it is the object “the people” to reign in the excesses of capitalisms, and concentration of wealth in the hands of property owners. America has always been a group of competing, destined to always be opposed interest groups: those who control production, thoses who are employed by the manufacturers, those who own property and those without. It is the primary responsibility of gov’t to referee these necessary, competing interests. Socialisms, or Democratic socialisms, today exists as an ideology throughout Europe alonside democracy. Government, in order to provide for the common good, public purpose and to continue the right to pursue happiness, however elusive, Socialism acknowledges that gov’t is the tool of its citizens. Wealth, property, and manufacturing are propelled and preserved by self interest. Madison, Jay, Hamilton and Jefferson collaborated to created a constitution to protect the rights of the wealthy, while balancing those rights with the needs of the many.

It is an injustice to loyal catholics when they are manipulated to support “small-gov’t;” code for service reductions and vital protections against the self-interest that controls the message. Socilized medicine has nothing to do with Marx, Stalin or Castro. How does Christ’s church stand back from the sanctity of life for every American, not solely the unborn?

Which is it? Does the church stand with humankind now, or shall we drown in suffering on earth, silently? Is this how we prepare our eternal reward. Liberation theology states our obligation today, are we still on board. Catholic papers seem to be working, again, to contr ol readers, and support unbridled capitalism. However, a collapse like our current alarm warns, is inevitable without a new, organized labor class.

 

[Cruxis117]

To judge all rich people as selfish, greedy, evil people is a sin. It is just as much a sin as judging all poor people as lazy, no good drug addicts. That is the greatest reason socialism is condemned by the church. There may be some greedy evil rich people as well as lazy drug addicted poor people but it isn’t for us to judge others. We can judge right from wrong. We know it is wrong to be greedy or lazy but only God can judge the intentions of a person, the life circumstances that brought them to their condition, only God can judge a human heart. Socialism judges rich people as evil, justifying the confiscation and redistribution of what is rightfully theirs. That is evil.
Capitalism for the sole purpose of hoarding wealth is condemned by the church. There are many rich people who take great joy at seeing their employees being able to provide for their families. They also loose sleep over the fear of becoming unprofitable and having to lay employees off of work. Many also take great satisfaction when they contribute large sums to many charities. They also find joy in spending their wealth, knowing that doing so puts many other people to work. If you believe all rich people are evil, you have a jaded view of people. That jaded view doesn’t justify stealing what isn’t yours and giving it to those you judge to be more deserving of it. That view is just as jaded as some people’s view that would deny poor people help because they are lazy. There may be some lazy people who brought poverty on themselves but it isn’t ours to judge. It is for us to help as much as we can regardless of why they are poor.
There is a vast difference between providing for the basic needs of the poor and making laws to protect basic workers rights and socialism. A just government would use some of its tax dollars to provide for the needs of the poor and make laws protecting workers rights. It crosses the line into socialism when for the sake of envy, it seeks to level the playing field until no one is permitted to have more than anyone else. Thou shall not covet thy neighbors goods. Coveting thy neighbors goods is a sin. Socialism is a sin.

As is Capitalism. See above your first post.

 

[Abu]

Cruxis117
Post #800: the Open Condemnation of Capitalism as well

Totally false.
The continued puerile big capitals used by this poster, illustrate the inane prejudice against the free enterprise system acknowledged by Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI as the human initiative answer to poverty and reward for enterprise and hard work.

Post #803: CCC2425: She has likewise refused to accept, in the practice of “capitalism,” individualism and the absolute primacy of the law of the marketplace over human labor 206

**Notice the acceptance of “the practice of ‘capitalism’ **” but which must exclude “individualism and the absolute primacy of the law of the marketplace over human labor” which is why She insists on subsidiarity, and free associations, including trade unions, and the government role to guarantee and enforce clear rules that establish and protect the ownership of private property and enforce contract, as well as punish people who take what is not theirs. The Law – transparent, providing equal justice, and impartially administered – is as important an institution to civilised society as the free market, which itself could be described as a mechanism for communicating prices.

Footnote 206 refers to:

1. Centesimus Annus, 1991, (CA) 10 which includes: “In this way what we nowadays call the principle of solidarity, the validity of which both in the internal order of each nation and in the international order I have discussed in the Encyclical Sollicitudo rei socialis,34 is clearly seen to be one of the fundamental principles of the Christian view of social and political organization.”
2. CA 13 which includes: “Socialism considers the individual person simply as an element, a molecule within the social organism, so that the good of the individual is completely subordinated to the functioning of the socio-economic mechanism. Socialism likewise maintains that the good of the individual can be realized without reference to his free choice, to the unique and exclusive responsibility which he exercises in the face of good or evil.”

The recognition couldn’t be clearer:
CA 42. ‘Returning now to the initial question: can it perhaps be said that, after the failure of Communism, capitalism is the victorious social system, and that capitalism should be the goal of the countries now making efforts to rebuild their economy and society? Is this the model which ought to be proposed to the countries of the Third World which are searching for the path to true economic and civil progress?

‘The answer is obviously complex. **If by “capitalism” is meant an economic system which recognizes the fundamental and positive role of business, the market, private property and the resulting responsibility for the means of production, as well as free human creativity in the economic sector, then the answer is certainly in the affirmative, even though it would perhaps be more appropriate to speak of a “business economy”, “market economy” or simply “free economy”. **But if by “capitalism” is meant a system in which freedom in the economic sector is not circumscribed within a strong juridical framework which places it at the service of human freedom in its totality, and which sees it as a particular aspect of that freedom, the core of which is ethical and religious, then the reply is certainly negative.

‘CA 43. The Church has no models to present;’

So that’s how the Church sees it. The blinkered indulge their prejudices.

**So irrefutably, Christ’s Church accepts and promotes free enterprise, which Her Late Scholastics developed against all other systems, but will not specify economic models or theories as that is not Her mandate. **

[Sandy Kay: Socialism is a sin]
To which Cruxis117 replies: As is Capitalism.

Obviously mired in the morass of selfist prejudice and self-deceit, against Christ’s Church, blithely rejecting:
“Society does not have to protect itself from the market, as if the development of the latter were ipso facto to entail the death of authentically human relations…Therefore it is not the instrument that must be called to account, but individuals, their moral conscience and their personal and social responsibility.” (Caritas et Veritate, Benedict XVI, 2009, #36).

This THREAD has been a wonderful opportunity to expose and correct many of the prejudices against Christ’s Church and identify the reasons why so many societies are in turmoil through the ludicrous interventionist distortions of human nature with the accompanying moral and economic distortions on which Christ’s Church will continue to offer Her teaching.

There are none so blind as those who will not to see.

 

[Cruxis117]

Totally false.
The continued puerile big capitals used by this poster, illustrate the inane prejudice against the free enterprise system acknowledged by Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI as the human initiative answer to poverty and reward for enterprise and hard work.
**Notice the acceptance of “the practice of ‘capitalism’ **” but which must exclude “individualism and the absolute primacy of the law of the marketplace over human labor” which is why She insists on subsidiarity, and free associations, including trade unions, and the government role to guarantee and enforce clear rules that establish and protect the ownership of private property and enforce contract, as well as punish people who take what is not theirs. The Law – transparent, providing equal justice, and impartially administered – is as important an institution to civilised society as the free market, which itself could be described as a mechanism for communicating prices.

Footnote 206 refers to:

1. Centesimus Annus, 1991, (CA) 10 which includes: “In this way what we nowadays call the principle of solidarity, the validity of which both in the internal order of each nation and in the international order I have discussed in the Encyclical Sollicitudo rei socialis,34 is clearly seen to be one of the fundamental principles of the Christian view of social and political organization.”
2. CA 13 which includes: “Socialism considers the individual person simply as an element, a molecule within the social organism, so that the good of the individual is completely subordinated to the functioning of the socio-economic mechanism. Socialism likewise maintains that the good of the individual can be realized without reference to his free choice, to the unique and exclusive responsibility which he exercises in the face of good or evil.”

The recognition couldn’t be clearer:
CA 42. ‘Returning now to the initial question: can it perhaps be said that, after the failure of Communism, capitalism is the victorious social system, and that capitalism should be the goal of the countries now making efforts to rebuild their economy and society? Is this the model which ought to be proposed to the countries of the Third World which are searching for the path to true economic and civil progress?

‘The answer is obviously complex. **If by “capitalism” is meant an economic system which recognizes the fundamental and positive role of business, the market, private property and the resulting responsibility for the means of production, as well as free human creativity in the economic sector, then the answer is certainly in the affirmative, even though it would perhaps be more appropriate to speak of a “business economy”, “market economy” or simply “free economy”. **But if by “capitalism” is meant a system in which freedom in the economic sector is not circumscribed within a strong juridical framework which places it at the service of human freedom in its totality, and which sees it as a particular aspect of that freedom, the core of which is ethical and religious, then the reply is certainly negative.

‘CA 43. The Church has no models to present;’

So that’s how the Church sees it. The blinkered indulge their prejudices.

**So irrefutably, Christ’s Church accepts and promotes free enterprise, which Her Late Scholastics developed against all other systems, but will not specify economic models or theories as that is not Her mandate. **
Obviously mired in the morass of selfist prejudice and self-deceit, against Christ’s Church, blithely rejecting:
“Society does not have to protect itself from the market, as if the development of the latter were ipso facto to entail the death of authentically human relations…Therefore it is not the instrument that must be called to account, but individuals, their moral conscience and their personal and social responsibility.” (Caritas et Veritate, Benedict XVI, 2009, #36).

This THREAD has been a wonderful opportunity to expose and correct many of the prejudices against Christ’s Church and identify the reasons why so many societies are in turmoil through the ludicrous interventionist distortions of human nature with the accompanying moral and economic distortions on which Christ’s Church will continue to offer Her teaching.

There are none so blind as those who will not to see.

Except you, it seems. If you wish to pick at the “Capitalism” part, then I must do so with Socialism. Notice where in the CCC Paragraph it states “rejects the athiestic and totalitarian ideologies “associated” with Communism and Socialism”. They don’t reject Socialism, but merely the athiestic and totalitarian parts of it. Likewise, this thread has been wonderful to see those who defend the evils of Capitalism to the point that they are blind to it’s failures.

It seems that you and I will continually disagree. This thread has really lost its way, and ultimately I obviously cannot convince you, nor can you convince me. So, let us end this bickering between one another.

 

[Abu]

Cruxis117
They [the Church] don’t reject Socialism

Another foolish retort.
“Oh what a tangled web we weave, When first we practice to deceive” (Sir Walter Scott).
The deception lies in rejecting the Church’s teaching from post #669:
Pius XI declared emphatically in Quadragesimo Anno, 1931, #120: “If Socialism, like all errors, contains some truth (which, moreover, the Supreme Pontiffs have never denied), it is based nevertheless on a theory of human society peculiar to itself and irreconcilable with true Christianity. Religious socialism, Christian socialism, are contradictory terms; no one can be at the same time a good Catholic and a true socialist.”

let us end this bickering

Bickering is about “petty points”. There is nothing “petty” about the condemnation of the Welfare State and Socialism by Christ’s Church, and the acceptance of free enterprise – it is absolutely fundamental to human nature, and the right to economic initiative that enabled the escape from dire poverty of untold millions. The light of truth cannot be hidden under a bushel.

What is missed is that the free enterprise system was developed by the Catholic Late Scholastics. There is nothing that can compare with its economic laws – it is the economic approach that has revolutionised the standard of living of billions. Individual morality determines how owners or managers or employees treat each other and the customers, which ethic may derive from a policy set by the firm, and requires the morality taught by Christ’s Church.

Apart from some who know nothing about economics, there are those who also know nothing about those many countries steeped in graft and corruption, and often warring tribes and revolution, and which have profited little from the massive aid provided, and the great advances of great men like American Norman Borlaug who actually lived among them and showed them how to benefit from his genetically modified green revolution. Dr. Borlaug, who died September, 2009, is scarcely known in his own country. Borlaug was one of only six people to have won the Nobel Peace Prize, the Presidential Medal of Freedom and the Congressional Gold Medal. He was also a recipient of the Padma Vibhushan, India’s second highest civilian honor.

 

[Cruxis117]

Another foolish retort.
“Oh what a tangled web we weave, When first we practice to deceive” (Sir Walter Scott).
The deception lies in rejecting the Church’s teaching from post #669:
Pius XI declared emphatically in Quadragesimo Anno, 1931, #120: “If Socialism, like all errors, contains some truth (which, moreover, the Supreme Pontiffs have never denied), it is based nevertheless on a theory of human society peculiar to itself and irreconcilable with true Christianity. Religious socialism, Christian socialism, are contradictory terms; no one can be at the same time a good Catholic and a true socialist.”
Bickering is about “petty points”. There is nothing “petty” about the condemnation of the Welfare State and Socialism by Christ’s Church, and the acceptance of free enterprise – it is absolutely fundamental to human nature, and the right to economic initiative that enabled the escape from dire poverty of untold millions. The light of truth cannot be hidden under a bushel.

What is missed is that the free enterprise system was developed by the Catholic Late Scholastics. There is nothing that can compare with its economic laws – it is the economic approach that has revolutionised the standard of living of billions. Individual morality determines how owners or managers or employees treat each other and the customers, which ethic may derive from a policy set by the firm, and requires the morality taught by Christ’s Church.

Apart from some who know nothing about economics, there are those who also know nothing about those many countries steeped in graft and corruption, and often warring tribes and revolution, and which have profited little from the massive aid provided, and the great advances of great men like American Norman Borlaug who actually lived among them and showed them how to benefit from his genetically modified green revolution. Dr. Borlaug, who died September, 2009, is scarcely known in his own country. Borlaug was one of only six people to have won the Nobel Peace Prize, the Presidential Medal of Freedom and the Congressional Gold Medal. He was also a recipient of the Padma Vibhushan, India’s second highest civilian honor.

And the CONDEMNATION OF CAPITALISM. I’m sorry, but for one who preaches, you also practise what the Church condemns. We need both elements of Captialism and SOCIALISM. Hmm, I think that Titus 3: 9-11 is the Scripture that you should read, it might help you understand.

 

[Abu]

How governments allow their central banks to devastate free enterprise by finagling! Then they play the blame game!visandvals.org/The_Great_Greek_Bailout.php

“Central bankers—unaccountable not only to the voters of these countries, but to their duly constituted governments as well — seem to have carte blanche to do what they want.

“As reported by Bloomberg on May 10, 2010, “The U.S. Federal Reserve will restart its emergency currency swap tool by providing as many dollars as needed to European central banks to keep the continent’s sovereign debt crisis from spreading.” (My emphasis.)

“First, we live in a world of finite wealth and limits, yet central bankers are flirting with an infinitely elastic money supply when they talk about “unlimited funds” and creating “as many dollars as needed.”
Second, who authorized the Fed to bail out European governments? Our own government is drowning in debt, so how can we afford to provide hundreds of billions of dollars to Europe? Is Congress asleep? Where’s the media?
Third, does anyone think that the other European governments teetering on the brink of insolvency will be able to convince their voters that they should tighten their belts through a government austerity program when the central bankers have made it clear that they stand ready to supply bailout funds? Moral hazard, anyone?”

Thus do the bumblers create the chaos that they blame on free enterprise with their idiotic manipulations. And some here fall for the deceit.

 

[Cruxis117]

Another foolish retort.
“Oh what a tangled web we weave, When first we practice to deceive” (Sir Walter Scott).
The deception lies in rejecting the Church’s teaching from post #669: Pius XI declared emphatically in Quadragesimo Anno…

Something else that should also be mentioned.

If you look at the Presidents leading up to the Great Depression, Harding, Coolidge, Hoover, they were all people who were Right-Wingers. Believers of the Capitalist system. Then you have the Great Depression. And then you had FDR. Did you know that he not only implemented the “socialistic” programs which you so despise, but he was the only president elected for more than two terms? People didn’t need to be left alone to suffer. And certainly you did not see the CC make that much of a difference there, sadly. Which, by what you say, should have happened. The suicide rate shot up like a rocket because of the Great Depression, which was a result of unbridaled Capitalism. Frankly, I don’t see how any of these fruits of Capitalism are good.

Furthermore, here are some quotes from the Quadragesimo Anno (which you cited):

1. Attention must be given also to another matter that is closely connected with the foregoing. Just as the unity of human society cannot be founded on an opposition of classes, so also the right ordering of economic life cannot be left to a free competition of forces. For from this source, as from a poisoned spring, have originated and spread all the errors of individualist economic teaching. Destroying through forgetfulness or ignorance the social and moral character of economic life, it held that economic life must be considered and treated as altogether free from and independent of public authority, because in the market, i.e., in the free struggle of competitors, it would have a principle of self direction which governs it much more perfectly than would the intervention of any created intellect. But free competition, while justified and certainly useful provided it is kept within certain limits, clearly cannot direct economic life - a truth which the outcome of the application in practice of the tenets of this evil individualistic spirit has more than sufficiently demonstrated. Therefore, it is most necessary that economic life be again subjected to and governed by a true and effective directing principle. This function is one that the economic dictatorship which has recently displaced free competition can still less perform, since it is a headstrong power and a violent energy that, to benefit people, needs to be strongly curbed and wisely ruled. But it cannot curb and rule itself. Loftier and nobler principles - social justice and social charity - must, therefore, be sought whereby this dictatorship may be governed firmly and fully. Hence, the institutions themselves of peoples and, particularly those of all social life, ought to be penetrated with this justice, and it is most necessary that it be truly effective, that is, establish a juridical and social order which will, as it were, give form and shape to all economic life. Social charity, moreover, ought to be as the soul of this order, an order which public authority ought to be ever ready effectively to protect and defend. It will be able to do this the more easily as it rids itself of those burdens which, as We have stated above, are not properly its own.

**103. But, with the diffusion of modern industry throughout the whole world, the “capitalist” economic regime has spread everywhere to such a degree, particularly since the publication of Leo XIII’s Encyclical, that it has invaded and pervaded the economic and social life of even those outside its orbit and is unquestionably impressing on it its advantages, disadvantages and vices, and, in a sense, is giving it its own shape and form. **

1. Accordingly, when directing Our special attention to the changes which the capitalist economic system has undergone since Leo’s time, We have in mind the good not only of those who dwell in regions given over to “capital” and industry, but of all mankind.
2. In the first place, it is obvious that not only is wealth concentrated in our times but an immense power and despotic economic dictatorship is consolidated in the hands of a few, who often are not owners but only the trustees and managing directors of invested funds which they administer according to their own arbitrary will and pleasure.
3. This dictatorship is being most forcibly exercised by those who, since they hold the money and completely control it, control credit also and rule the lending of money. Hence they regulate the flow, so to speak, of the life-blood whereby the entire economic system lives, and have so firmly in their grasp the soul, as it were, of economic life that no one can breathe against their will.
4. Strict and watchful moral restraint enforced vigorously by governmental authority could have banished these enormous evils and even forestalled them; this restraint, however, has too often been sadly lacking. For since the seeds of a new form of economy were bursting forth just when the principles of rationalism had been implanted and rooted in many minds, there quickly developed a body of economic teaching far removed from the true moral law, and, as a result, completely free rein was given to human passions.

 

[Cruxis117]

How governments allow their central banks to devastate free enterprise by finagling! Then they play the blame game!visandvals.org/The_Great_Greek_Bailout.php

“Central bankers—unaccountable not only to the voters of these countries, but to their duly constituted governments as well — seem to have carte blanche to do what they want.

“As reported by Bloomberg on May 10, 2010, “The U.S. Federal Reserve will restart its emergency currency swap tool by providing as many dollars as needed to European central banks to keep the continent’s sovereign debt crisis from spreading.” (My emphasis.)

“First, we live in a world of finite wealth and limits, yet central bankers are flirting with an infinitely elastic money supply when they talk about “unlimited funds” and creating “as many dollars as needed.”
Second, who authorized the Fed to bail out European governments? Our own government is drowning in debt, so how can we afford to provide hundreds of billions of dollars to Europe? Is Congress asleep? Where’s the media?
Third, does anyone think that the other European governments teetering on the brink of insolvency will be able to convince their voters that they should tighten their belts through a government austerity program when the central bankers have made it clear that they stand ready to supply bailout funds? Moral hazard, anyone?”

Thus do the bumblers create the chaos that they blame on free enterprise with their idiotic manipulations. And some here fall for the deceit.

ratzingerfanclub.com/blog/2007/09/pope-benedicts-critique-of-capitalism.html

Earlier this summer Benedict urged the nations of the world to embrace each other in solidarity and work towards “an ever more just distribution” of wealth," warning that “It is not possible to continue using the wealth of the poorest countries with impunity, without them also being able to participate in world growth.” (Zenit: “Pope Urges Just Distribution of Goods” June 1, 2007).
Benedict revisited this topic during his September 23 Angelus. Commenting on Jesus’ parable of the “dishonest steward”, Benedict remarked on the “equal distribution of goods”:

Telling the Parable of the dishonest but very crafty administrator, Christ teaches his disciples the best way to use money and material riches, that is, to share them with the poor, thus acquiring their friendship, with a view to the Kingdom of Heaven. “Make friends for yourselves by means of unrighteous mammon,” Jesus says, “so that when it fails they may receive you into the eternal habitations” (Lk 16: 9).
Money is not “dishonest” in itself, but more than anything else it can close man in a blind egocentrism. It therefore concerns a type of work of “conversion” of economic goods: instead of using them only for self-interest, it is also necessary to think of the needs of the poor, imitating Christ himself, who, as St Paul wrote: “though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor, so that by his poverty you might become rich” (II Cor 8: 9). …]
Catholic social doctrine has always supported that equitable distribution of goods is a priority. Naturally, profit is legitimate and, in just measure, necessary for economic development.
In his Encyclical Centesimus Annus, John Paul II wrote: “The modern business economy has positive aspects. Its basis is human freedom exercised in many other fields” (n. 32). Yet, he adds that capitalism must not be considered as the only valid model of economic organization (cf. ibid., n. 35).
Starvation and ecological emergencies stand to denounce, with increasing evidence, that the logic of profit, if it prevails, increases the disproportion between rich and poor and leads to a ruinous exploitation of the planet.
Instead, when the logic of sharing and solidarity prevails, it is possible to correct the course and direct it towards an equitable, sustainable development’

That was from this:
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/angelus/2007/documents/hf_ben-xvi_ang_20070923_en.html

 

[Abu]

Cruxis117
the Great Depression. And then you had FDR. Did you know that he not only implemented the “socialistic” programs which you so despise, but he was the only president elected for more than two terms? People didn’t need to be left alone to suffer. And certainly you did not see the CC make that much of a difference there, sadly. Which, by what you say, should have happened. The suicide rate shot up like a rocket because of the Great Depression, which was a result of unbridaled Capitalism. Frankly, I don’t see how any of these fruits of Capitalism are good.

Ad nauseam you repeat “you don’t see”: no one who can be so obtuse will ever see, for in
Post #775:
At Hoover’s insistence, followed by FDR, wages remained high even throughout the Great Depression propping up unemployment at an average of 18% throughout. The Keynesian “purchasing power” fallacy of prosperity had trumped over the fact that savings are the source of investment. Yet Americans bought more than twice as many refrigerators in 1935 with unemployment over 20% than they bought in 1929 with unemployment at 3.2%, but over a million had no wages at all. By 1938, 1.2 million were out of work. The continued failure was to realise that wages are a cost of doing business and that for maximum employment have to reach a sustainable level.

Without those policies econometric estimates show that the “Depression would have been completely over (less than 5% unemployment) by 1936.” [Richard K Vedder & Lowell E Gallaway, Out of Work: Unemployment and Government in Twentieth-Century America (New York, Holmes & Meier, 1993, p 142.

**Post#762:
The Great Depression was fuelled by Hoover and then F.D.R. using his socialist New Deal by raising taxes, expanding public works spending, establishing welfare programs, destroying existing crops, imposing acreage reduction requirements, legislating for cartels to establish minimum selling prices, and limit output. We all know how deep and long that fiasco was.

In practice, the interventionist, socialist programs failed.

 

[athair_siochain]

Yet another mirage that the free enterprise developed and encouraged by Christ’s Church should be falsified to “Laissez-Faire Capitalism”. His ranting on this has been exposed (posts #654, # 725) – what he tilts at has never existed in any society or country, only in the minds of a few economists, with whom I disagree as any observer can see. Christ’s Church has never allowed as moral, any manipulation of the nature of man.

As the guardian of morals and of the right to economic initiative in free enterprise, Christ’s Church has taught that the operation of free enterprise must be based on what has been well–expressed by Fr James A Schall: “Since the Catholic Church wants poverty confronted, since She wants this confrontation to be done justly and with the interest and cooperation of the workers and the poor, She has had to acknowledge, as did the socialist systems themselves, that there are certain ways that must be employed if mankind is to meet its economic problems. These ways can be known and imitated, but they must include a juridical system, profit, enterprise, knowledge, exchange, a market, voluntary organisations, a relatively independent economy, private property, and respect for work and excellence.”
Does Catholicism Still Exist?, Alba House 1994, p 184-185].

The ranting and raving of frantony has no place in reasoned discussion – what both he and Cruxis117 display is the utter failure to understand:

1. That the laws of economics were discovered and developed by the great Late Scholastics who were faithful Catholics and that the right to economic initiative, and the operation of those laws in society has been acknowledged by Christ’s Church.
2. That this development started in the great Catholic monastic estates of the ninth century
3. The free enterprise system of economics by its nature and results has enabled the creation and spread of wealth for untold billions since the days of eking out an existence before the 18th century. Nothing can compare with the wealth created and widely spread from this great system developed by faithful members of Christ’s Church.
4. That socialism has been totally condemned by Christ’s Church and has no place in human endeavour.
5. That free enterprise has been shackled and largely crippled by those government agencies which interfere to distort the laws of economics based on the false economic theories such as the Keynesian fallacies of stimului, which are largely responsible for putting the world’s largest economy, the U.S.A., in its present plight, and have squandered the massive surplus of a previous government in Australia. (At least frantony has some inkling here).

So for many years, the benefits which free enterprise has enabled have been shackled by the false economic theories which various “schools” have concocted, despite the enormous growth of the U.S. previously.

I lived in Australia so I keep in touch, again Abu is spreading untruths far and wide, to say the Australian Socialist Government squandered the surplus. they put the money to good use, the surplus was created by taxing the poor, by John Howard giving a $17.000 first home owners grant, this forced up costs and taxes, in a decade less than a billion dollars was handed out . to create trillions of dollars in equity and taxes, NSW alone made 8 billion dollars in taxes out of that scheme, Howard created a value added tax. Howard went to war, he should have been hung, his successor Tony Abbott a Catholic is now proving to be anti Muslim

Australia was one Nation that did not suffer from the " world downturn. because money was spent to create jobs . to create money for small business. if the Capitalists had been in power . they would have taxed the poor, they would have raised rents and interest,

Today the high value of the Aussie Dollar is proof the Socialists know what they are doing, they do have one problem the Supermarkets are raising prices to raise profits for Capitalistic share holders,

 

[athair_siochain]

Hmm, I would rather have the government taxing my money so that it can go to things that I will actually benefit from, then going to the Capitalistic route, letting the right have all of the wealth and hoping that the money will “trickle down” to the poor and the needy.

Here, let’s look at Scripture:

Romans 13:1-7 1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God’s servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God’s servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

So, you say government is bad, Scripture says that government is good. I’ll stick with Scripture first

I was waiting for someone to use Romans, 13, to be used to support greed and Capitalism,

Does that mean that all those Germans who supported Hitler (97%) were obeying Gods Authority on Earth , will those 3% who were against Hitler end up in Hell fire because they went against the authorities that exist

Martin Luther used that Scripture to preach hatred of Jews. he was the one who change the text to fit in with his views on the world,

 

[Cruxis117]

I was waiting for someone to use Romans, 13, to be used to support greed and Capitalism,

Does that mean that all those Germans who supported Hitler (97%) were obeying Gods Authority on Earth , will those 3% who were against Hitler end up in Hell fire because they went against the authorities that exist

Martin Luther used that Scripture to preach hatred of Jews. he was the one who change the text to fit in with his views on the world,

Right, but I’m not (changing the text). I’m merely stating what Scripture says.Put it like this. Does a bad example of Government (like Nazi Germany) mean that what Scripture says is untrue?

I’m not supporting Greed and Capitalism with Romans 13. I am merely attempting to state that the Government (the institution) has been appointed by God, and while civil disobediance should be done when the Government orders us to break God’s laws, likewise this does not mean that we are to throw away the Government nor it’s Authority in general.

 

[Abu]

Facing Reality
As we have seen free enterprise economic development started in the great Catholic monastic estates of the ninth century, and a solid basis of economic Catholic thought developed from the fourteenth century. In the fifteenth century the Late Scholastics who were Thomists (followers of St Thomas) “writing and teaching at the University of Salamanca in Spain, sought to explain the full range of human action and social; organization.” They “observed the existence of economic law, inexorable forces of cause and effect that operate very much as other natural laws. Over the course of several generations, they discovered and explained the laws of supply and demand, the cause of inflation, the operation of foreign exchange rates, and the subjective nature of economic value…” For these reasons Joseph Schumpeter applauded them as the first real economists. (Thomas E Woods Jr, The Church And The Market, Lexington Books, 2005, p 8).

Dr Alejandro Chafuen clarifies that economics “is the study of the formal implications that can be deduced from the fact that human beings act purposively…economic science is value-free. It analyses cause and effect relationships that, if true, are scientific….(but) only human acts can be judged morally.
“Every scientific law that is a true statement is a natural law, something that human beings can understand but cannot alter. It is always useful for human beings to understand cause-and-effect relationships.” (Christians For Freedom, Dr Alejandro Chafuen, Ignatius 1986, p 33-38).
From natural law we can understand economics and morality or ethics. Morals are confirmed for us by definitive Catholic teaching on morals.
The development of free enterprise is linked specifically to a Catholic ethic.
As Geowitz wrote in #587: Might I remind everyone that it is exactly our worldly desire to intervene that creates the situations we are in now. We have been intervening in economics against its natural laws just as we intervene in biology with abortion or birth control, which goes against natural law.
There is no debate over the necessity of humans to work within economics. The debate is HOW we work within economics. Do we work with the natural law or against it? Both are an option, but you must prove that your means of “intervention” align with natural law.

 

[athair_siochain]

Facing Reality
As we have seen free enterprise economic development started in the great Catholic monastic estates of the ninth century, and a solid basis of economic Catholic thought developed from the fourteenth century. In the fifteenth century the Late Scholastics who were Thomists (followers of St Thomas) “writing and teaching at the University of Salamanca in Spain, sought to explain the full range of human action and social; organization.” They “observed the existence of economic law, inexorable forces of cause and effect that operate very much as other natural laws. Over the course of several generations, they discovered and explained the laws of supply and demand, the cause of inflation, the operation of foreign exchange rates, and the subjective nature of economic value…” For these reasons Joseph Schumpeter applauded them as the first real economists. (Thomas E Woods Jr, The Church And The Market, Lexington Books, 2005, p 8).

Dr Alejandro Chafuen clarifies that economics “is the study of the formal implications that can be deduced from the fact that human beings act purposively…economic science is value-free. It analyses cause and effect relationships that, if true, are scientific….(but) only human acts can be judged morally.
“Every scientific law that is a true statement is a natural law, something that human beings can understand but cannot alter. It is always useful for human beings to understand cause-and-effect relationships.” (Christians For Freedom, Dr Alejandro Chafuen, Ignatius 1986, p 33-38).
From natural law we can understand economics and morality or ethics. Morals are confirmed for us by definitive Catholic teaching on morals.
The development of free enterprise is linked specifically to a Catholic ethic.
As Geowitz wrote in #587: Might I remind everyone that it is exactly our worldly desire to intervene that creates the situations we are in now. We have been intervening in economics against its natural laws just as we intervene in biology with abortion or birth control, which goes against natural law.
There is no debate over the necessity of humans to work within economics. The debate is HOW we work within economics. Do we work with the natural law or against it? Both are an option, but you must prove that your means of “intervention” align with natural law.

Facing reality, Abu yes the reality is the majority of people in our World understand economics is a tool created by those from the top end of town, the greedy rich, most of them are landlords and moneylenders , I spent more than a decade investigating greed, my findings proved the landlords and moneylenders controlled most things, the members of governments both Capitalist and Socialist had a majority of landlords, that is why there has never been laws put in place to stop rent rises. interest rises.
Abu is afraid the gravy train will come of the rails , that is why Abu is so outspoken , the day the greedy parasite is controlled , will be the day this World is taken of life support, Christ words ring out loud and clear. "Forgive them Father they know not what they do " Christs most powerful words…

 

[athair_siochain]

Hmm, I would rather have the government taxing my money so that it can go to things that I will actually benefit from, then going to the Capitalistic route, letting the right have all of the wealth and hoping that the money will “trickle down” to the poor and the needy.

Here, let’s look at Scripture:

Romans 13:1-7 1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God’s servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God’s servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

So, you say government is bad, Scripture says that government is good. I’ll stick with Scripture first

Romans 13:1-7 has always been of interest to me .as it accommodates evil Dictators , corrupt governments, exploitation of the very people who do the real work.
Be afraid he does not bear sword for nothing,
Many evil people have used this Scripture . to sanctify murder

 

[Cruxis117]

Romans 13:1-7 has always been of interest to me .as it accommodates evil Dictators , corrupt governments, exploitation of the very people who do the real work.
Be afraid he does not bear sword for nothing,
Many evil people have used this Scripture . to sanctify murder

You’re right, they have. From Hitler to other horrid people, this Scripture has been twisted to suit their sick ideals. Likewise though, people have always twisted Scripture. This is nothing new. But likewise, just because people twist the Scriptures does not mean that they aren’t true.

People often claim that the Commandments(when I mean people I mean Fundamentalists, JW’s, and others) are being violated by our use of icons and pictures of Christ the Lord as well as of angels, yet they twist this to suit their own ideologies, forgetting other parts of Scripture. Why I am bringing this up is primarily because we know that this twisting of this particular peice of scripture does not make the scripture itself (the part about worship of idols) untrue. Likewise, Romans 13:1-7 does not become untrue just because it has been twisted by horrid people.

 

[Abu]

The Wisdom of the Church
As Fr James V Schall, S.J., in *Does Catholicism Still Exist?, *Alba House 1994, p 184-185, explains:
“Since the Catholic Church wants poverty confronted, since She wants this confrontation to be done justly and with the interest and cooperation of the workers and the poor, She has had to acknowledge, as did the socialist systems themselves, that there are certain ways that must be employed if mankind is to meet its economic problems. These ways can be known and imitated, but they must include a juridical system, profit, enterprise, knowledge, exchange, a market, voluntary organisations, a relatively independent economy, private property, and respect for work and excellence.”

That’s why we have laws to seek and punish those who steal, cheat, swindle, and worse crimes. That’s why we have the Catholic Church to guide us – She who invented charity in the West.

No wealth can be created until it is produced – that’s why the Late Scholastic system works so well to enable everyone to produce some wealth and to do with it as they choose through free-will. Economic laws are based on the principles of human action – of cause and effect involving God-given reason.

Free enterprise doesn’t emphasise greed and self over the common good – do you know of any legitimate business that can survive without giving its customers value for money, with other similar businesses competing for the customers’ patronage? Is the State going to do a better job of allocation of scarce resources?

It is people who commit crimes and who should be punished. It is a crime to deny the right to the freedom of economic initiative.

 

[Cruxis117]

The Wisdom of the Church
As Fr James V Schall, S.J., in *Does Catholicism Still Exist?, *Alba House 1994, p 184-185, explains:
“Since the Catholic Church wants poverty confronted, since She wants this confrontation to be done justly and with the interest and cooperation of the workers and the poor, She has had to acknowledge, as did the socialist systems themselves, that there are certain ways that must be employed if mankind is to meet its economic problems. These ways can be known and imitated, but they must include a juridical system, profit, enterprise, knowledge, exchange, a market, voluntary organisations, a relatively independent economy, private property, and respect for work and excellence.”

That’s why we have laws to seek and punish those who steal, cheat, swindle, and worse crimes. That’s why we have the Catholic Church to guide us – She who invented charity in the West.

No wealth can be created until it is produced – that’s why the Late Scholastic system works so well to enable everyone to produce some wealth and to do with it as they choose through free-will. Economic laws are based on the principles of human action – of cause and effect involving God-given reason.

Free enterprise doesn’t emphasise greed and self over the common good – do you know of any legitimate business that can survive without giving its customers value for money, with other similar businesses competing for the customers’ patronage? Is the State going to do a better job of allocation of scarce resources?

It is people who commit crimes and who should be punished. It is a crime to deny the right to the freedom of economic initiative.

So, what’s the argument here? We agree that freedom of economic initiative should exist, as well as “reasonable regulation of the marketplace and economic initiatives, in keeping with a just hierarchy of values and a view to the common good, is to be commended.”
I don’t see any problem here now.