"Why" is sola scriptura important?

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Can you give us some background on this amazing discoveries site you keep quoting? I looked at the home page and cannot figure out what these people are about.

You keep quoting them and this Mary Online article. These people don’t post any affiliation information so a person can make a sound decision about anything they are offering.

Maybe if you could clarify that for us.

Although, they are not a Catholic source and obviously don’t want anyone to research anything they’ve popsted because they don’t give source information so I think their credibility is questionable.
 
THEN ON WHAT BASIS PRAY TELL DID THEY REJECT THE REFORMATION AT THE COUNCIL OF TRENT. Again, for those who didn’t get it!

Again - this is Catholic Literature!

"Let us now, however, take a glance at our second proposition, with the Bible alone as the teacher and guide in faith and morals. This teacher most emphatically forbids any change in the day for paramount reasons. The command calls for a “perpetual covenant.” The day commanded to be kept by the teacher has never once been kept, thereby developing an apostasy from an assumedly fixed principle, as self-contradictory, self-stultifying, and consequently as suicidal as it is within the power of language to express.

Nor are the limits of demoralization yet reached. Far from it. Their [protestant] pretense for leaving the bosom of the Catholic Church was for apostasy from the truth as taught in the written word. They adopted the written word as their sole teacher, which they had no sooner done than they abandoned it promptly, as these articles have abundantly proved; and by a perversity as willful as erroneous, they accept the teaching of the Catholic Church in direct opposition to the plain, unvaried, and constant teaching of their sole teacher in the most essential doctrine of their religion, thereby emphasizing the situation in what may be aptly designated “a mockery, a delusion, and a snare.” "

Catholic Mirror 1893
amazingdiscoveries.org/research/maryonline.htm

"…He [Bacchiocchi] was graduated from the Gregorian University in Rome, …For his brilliant academic achievement he was awarded a gold medal donated by Pope Paul VI. His ecumenical spirit matches his vast academic achievements.”—Dr. James P. Wesberry, Executive Director, Lord’s Day Alliance, p. 7.
 
THEN ON WHAT BASIS PRAY TELL DID THEY REJECT THE REFORMATION AT THE COUNCIL OF TRENT. Again, for those who didn’t get it!
Read the documents of Trent, I gave you the link already. You post about something you have no idea about. They condemned the reformation for probably 50 reasons. **Read the council.
**
 
See this is the part I don’t get!

The “Mary Online” article:

amazingdiscoveries.org/r…/maryonline.htm

as you can see is a page that has the ENTIRE Catholic document intact (so it can’t be accused of being taken out of context) and it happens to be attached to another web site that talks about other things as well.

Fact #1) It is taken out of a major Catholic Journal (The Catholic Mirror) which was the majr organ for Baltimore Cardinal Gibbons at that time. It is an offical document of the Church.

WHO CARES WHERE IT ENDS UP ON THE INTERNET OR WHAT PAGE IT IS ATTACHED TO. The merits of the document should be contined in its words and AUTHOR. REGARDLESS OF WHAT WEB PAGE IT IS ATTACHED TO: IT IS:

Fact #2) still a Catholic Document!!!

You guys make me laugh. So, if I attach the Catholic Catechism to my (if I had one) web site. You would take it seriously anymore???

As far as the Council of Trent, you are right. There were several thngs that the Catholic church rejected the protestants on. But, - the MAJOR one for sola scriptura (remember this thread) was the Sunday factor. Again - READ (PLEASE READ before repling) because a lot of your answers are in this document.!!!

If you are still going to bark up the tree of doubtful sources. Then the Catholic church needs to really get some of their most prominent Cardinals and Prients in line (I say this tongue in cheek because I think that all the quotes I have given you are truly in line)
 
Most Protestants just follow their parents in tradition, the same way many Roman Catholics do. Many of them are content to go to their church, aren’t looking to debate, and they themselves have no concept of “sola scriptura”. They are merely “churched” like I suspect many of us Roman Catholics probably are. Again, that’s the majority IMHO.

The point is, most “Protestants” no longer know what they are “protesting”, or what the reformation was really about anyway.

Its just the ones that think they do that tend to get rowdy about it.

I personally was a Presbyterian merely because my parents were. I didn’t really become “Christ Aware” until I was 30, and then when I was witnessed to by both a Roman Catholic and a Presbyterian (two different people during the same year) did I even start to care about the scriptures. The problem stems from new believers having a “zeal” for Christ. It’s a good feeling, but can turn one into a complete jerk. (I was one such jerk.)

As I grew and matured, I started to see the protestant “problems” from the inside. Sola scriptura isnt’ so much of a doctrine as it is an excuse for various types of ritualism based on various types of translation… much of which is taken out of context. Sola Scriptura fails on several levels, but it primarily fails in proclaiming order of scriptural and doctrinal “importance”.

Many Protestant churches were formed because they held one part of scripture as more important than others for their own reasons. Pentacostals are all about the book of Acts and the importance of gifts of the spirit. Charasmatics are big “Acts” people too. Presbyterians key in on predestination ideas and covenant theology, while others vilify alchohol as a tool of the devil that must be shunned. The Church of the Brethren and the Amish “Anabaptists” tend to hold non-confrontational passages and ultra pacifistic notions as more important as other factors of the Bible, etc…

Of course, to be fair, they mostly all put Christ at the top of the scriptural importance list, but from there down- in terms of theology, practice, ceremony, government, policy, and concepts… it’s a free-for-all as far as what can be proclaimed to SEPARATE your denomination from others. Enter most protestant denominations and you can find out what piece of scripture they want to take as more literal and more important than the others. On one level, many of the better informed people within know what they are talking about – at least in defense of their tradition. However, when it comes right down to it- they often have no idea WHY the pieces of scripture that they tout above other pieces are given such importance. It comes down to what they learned from someone else. Ask a Pentacostal why they feel they have to speak in tongues, they’ll point to the gifts given to some of the Christians in Acts. Ask them why that’s so important in relation to other parts of scripture, and they have no idea. They just know its what separates them from the other denominations. It really becomes like a “boast” that one denomination knows which part of “sola scriptura” falls into the # 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 slots behind the importance of the risen Christ.

The irony is they promote what sets them APART more than what unites. With so many denominations, logically- it’s the differences that are used to promote attendance and fellowship…not necessarily uniting in Christ.

But the divide goes even futher, many “non-denominational” churches would agree with me on that last point… and not surprisingly they use that as justification for their existence as another Christian alternative too. But if you visit non-denom churches, you’ll find they quite often come in two basic flavors. The first being populist “mega churches” that generally entertain and collect money more than anything… the second being the type of church that caters to people who generally dislike “official” church government and like an “openness” of service… where anything goes. This is where you have people who stand up and proclaim healings they do not see, or fall on their faces during worship and make spectacles of themselves. Total freedom can often lead to total chaos. “Anything Goes” comes with a price.

The point is, sola scriptura can justify many things if you want it to. It can justify division, that’s for sure.
 
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illuminator:
See this is the part I don’t get!

The “Mary Online” article:

amazingdiscoveries.org/r…/maryonline.htm

as you can see is a page that has the ENTIRE Catholic document intact (so it can’t be accused of being taken out of context) and it happens to be attached to another web site that talks about other things as well.
Fact #1) It is taken out of a major Catholic Journal (The Catholic Mirror) which was the majr organ for Baltimore Cardinal Gibbons at that time. It is an offical document of the Church.

WHO CARES WHERE IT ENDS UP ON THE INTERNET OR WHAT PAGE IT IS ATTACHED TO. The merits of the document should be contined in its words and AUTHOR. REGARDLESS OF WHAT WEB PAGE IT IS ATTACHED TO: IT IS:
No, it is not an official Catholic document. Official documents include papal encyclicals, ecumenical councils and catechisms. A local Catholic magazine is not official Catholic literature.
Fact #2) still a Catholic Document!!!

You guys make me laugh. So, if I attach the Catholic Catechism to my (if I had one) web site. You would take it seriously anymore???

As far as the Council of Trent, you are right. There were several thngs that the Catholic church rejected the protestants on. But, - the MAJOR one for sola scriptura (remember this thread) was the Sunday factor. Again - READ (PLEASE READ before repling) because a lot of your answers are in this document.!!!
Yes, we would respect the Catechism because it is not a local magazine that hasn’t been in print for over a hundred years.

No, that is not the factor which sola scriptura is rejected upon. It is rejected because it is blatantly contradicted in scripture. Read the documents of Trent, there is not one mention of the idea that you try to add to it.
If you are still going to bark up the tree of doubtful sources. Then the Catholic church needs to really get some of their most prominent Cardinals and Prients in line (I say this tongue in cheek because I think that all the quotes I have given you are truly in line)
You offer sources that are out of print and that no one has heard of. What, you can’t quote from one of the sources I gave above? There are probably about 3000 pages worth of information to quote from there. Try quoting from the Catholic encyclopedia as welll, that is something that we can read. It is on the internet too so it is easy to get.
 
ScottH’s post actually makes a lot of sense. I also have problems with most of Protestantism and also feel that they don’t know what they are protesting.

Anyway, I don’t have time right now to go through 3000 pages from Trent but it doesn’t mean I won’t try in the near future. You might hear back from me tonight.

So I guess accoring to Jimmy, some Catholic Journal’s don’t know what the heck they and talking about. (so do a lot of church fathers)
 
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illuminator:
ScottH’s post actually makes a lot of sense. I also have problems with most of Protestantism and also feel that they don’t know what they are protesting.



So I guess accoring to Jimmy, some Catholic Journal’s don’t know what the heck they and talking about. (so do a lot of church fathers)
While some sources may have deficiencies, I think the real issue is that if we need to correct your interpretation of Catholic teaching, we’d prefer it if you went right to the source and that we can readily verify the source.

Otherwise we’re needlessly tackling extra layers of possible misunderstanding.
 
Ok, I’ll do that. But it will take some time. - Please allow me.

I agree that it might be hard to verify a publication from 1893, but it stated more implictly what is stated in the catechism.

I must say that I’m not making these quotes up - they are out there. I mean the quote from 1893 was there before the internet obviously (probably before the routine use of electricity). So just because it is a part of a web site means nothing. It stood on its own when first published in the Catholic Mirror (of Baltimore).

But again, I will again amass a colection of quotes and perhaps where they can be found and verified.
 
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illuminator:
Ok, I’ll do that. But it will take some time. - Please allow me.

I agree that it might be hard to verify a publication from 1893, but it stated more implictly what is stated in the catechism.

I must say that I’m not making these quotes up - they are out there. I mean the quote from 1893 was there before the internet obviously (probably before the routine use of electricity). So just because it is a part of a web site means nothing. It stood on its own when first published in the Catholic Mirror (of Baltimore).

But again, I will again amass a colection of quotes and perhaps where they can be found and verified.
I’ll help you:
vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm
cin.org/users/james/ebooks/master/master2.htm
papalencyclicals.net/
newadvent.org/cathen/

Last, but not least:
catholic.com/library/Papal_Infallibility.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/2001/0109bt.asp

P.S. Instead of “amassing” quotes, find your best one.
 
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ScottH:
Most Protestants just follow their parents in tradition, the same way many Roman Catholics do. Many of them are content to go to their church, aren’t looking to debate, and they themselves have no concept of “sola scriptura”. They are merely “churched” like I suspect many of us Roman Catholics probably are. Again, that’s the majority IMHO.

The point is, most “Protestants” no longer know what they are “protesting”, or what the reformation was really about anyway.

Its just the ones that think they do that tend to get rowdy about it.

I personally was a Presbyterian merely because my parents were. I didn’t really become “Christ Aware” until I was 30, and then when I was witnessed to by both a Roman Catholic and a Presbyterian (two different people during the same year) did I even start to care about the scriptures. The problem stems from new believers having a “zeal” for Christ. It’s a good feeling, but can turn one into a complete jerk. (I was one such jerk.)

As I grew and matured, I started to see the protestant “problems” from the inside. Sola scriptura isnt’ so much of a doctrine as it is an excuse for various types of ritualism based on various types of translation… much of which is taken out of context. Sola Scriptura fails on several levels, but it primarily fails in proclaiming order of scriptural and doctrinal “importance”.

Many Protestant churches were formed because they held one part of scripture as more important than others for their own reasons. Pentacostals are all about the book of Acts and the importance of gifts of the spirit. Charasmatics are big “Acts” people too. Presbyterians key in on predestination ideas and covenant theology, while others vilify alchohol as a tool of the devil that must be shunned. The Church of the Brethren and the Amish “Anabaptists” tend to hold non-confrontational passages and ultra pacifistic notions as more important as other factors of the Bible, etc…

Of course, to be fair, they mostly all put Christ at the top of the scriptural importance list, but from there down- in terms of theology, practice, ceremony, government, policy, and concepts… it’s a free-for-all as far as what can be proclaimed to SEPARATE your denomination from others. Enter most protestant denominations and you can find out what piece of scripture they want to take as more literal and more important than the others. On one level, many of the better informed people within know what they are talking about – at least in defense of their tradition. However, when it comes right down to it- they often have no idea WHY the pieces of scripture that they tout above other pieces are given such importance. It comes down to what they learned from someone else. Ask a Pentacostal why they feel they have to speak in tongues, they’ll point to the gifts given to some of the Christians in Acts. Ask them why that’s so important in relation to other parts of scripture, and they have no idea. They just know its what separates them from the other denominations. It really becomes like a “boast” that one denomination knows which part of “sola scriptura” falls into the # 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 slots behind the importance of the risen Christ.

The irony is they promote what sets them APART more than what unites. With so many denominations, logically- it’s the differences that are used to promote attendance and fellowship…not necessarily uniting in Christ.

But the divide goes even futher, many “non-denominational” churches would agree with me on that last point… and not surprisingly they use that as justification for their existence as another Christian alternative too. But if you visit non-denom churches, you’ll find they quite often come in two basic flavors. The first being populist “mega churches” that generally entertain and collect money more than anything… the second being the type of church that caters to people who generally dislike “official” church government and like an “openness” of service… where anything goes. This is where you have people who stand up and proclaim healings they do not see, or fall on their faces during worship and make spectacles of themselves. Total freedom can often lead to total chaos. “Anything Goes” comes with a price.

The point is, sola scriptura can justify many things if you want it to. It can justify division, that’s for sure.
Great points. Eye-opening and common sense at the same time. Thank you. 👍
 
OK, when I first brought you Catholic quotes stating that there was no Biblical evidence for Sunday (the Lord’s Day), I was admonished for brings such poor documentation. Despite the fact that the articles were written by Catholics for Catholics and published in Catholic journals, the readers of this thread indulged in discrediting the source or myself. I heard things such as “what small city was that out of?” “I’ve never heard of this journal before.” “You clearly don’t know the first thing about Catholics.” Etc.etc. I was told that I needed to do more study and find better sources. I thank you for that recommendation because I did so and I’m glad I did. I learned a lot. A lot of other quotes from better sources that basically say the same thing. 👍

I will show them to you but only a few at a time (we’ll start out slow) because I want to take them two by two (like the ark). I have 2 quotes to start out with. Notice that both of them are Cathechisms and have Imprimaturs. They are both WIDELY distributed and you may actually have a copy of one or both of these in your home. I’ve also included where you can obtain a copy if you so desire although I must say that I don’t have any interest in any of the book companies or stock in amazon. 🙂

Quote #1 from “The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine”
"Question - Which is the Sabbath day?
"Answer - Saturday is the Sabbath day.
“Question - Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
“Answer - We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea (A.D. 364), transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.” .”

–Peter Geiermann, The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, 1957 edition, p. 50 [Geiermann (1870-1929) received the “apostolic blessing” of pope Pius X on this book, January 26, 1910]. And IMPRIMATUR, September 16, 1957.

aquinasandmore.com/index.cfm/FuseAction/Store.ItemDetails/SKU/1893/imageSize/Lg/

lnfbooks.com/scripts/search.php?search_in=books+author+full&search_text=Geiermann%2C+Peter

catholiccaravans.net/index.cfm/FuseAction/store.BrowseCategory/Category/92/

Quote #2: from Advanced Catechism Of Catholic Faith And Practice, based upon the Third Plenary Council Catechism

356: Are the Sabbath day and Sunday the same?

The Sabbath day and Sunday are not the same. The Sabbath is the seventh day of the week, and is the day which was kept holy in the old law; the Sunday is the first day of the week, and is the day which is kept holy in the new law.

Who made the change from Saturday to Sunday?

The change from Saturday to Sunday was made by the Apostles, though the Bible does not clearly teach Sunday observance

Advanced Catechism Of Catholic Faith And Practice, based upon the Third Plenary Council Catechism for use in the higher grades of Catholic Schools, compiled by Rev. Thomas J. O’brien, inspector of Parochial Schools, Diocese of Brooklyn, published by John B. Oink, Chicago Ill., copyright 1929. page 180-182

How about that! It says that the change was made from Saturday to Sunday by the apostles but that there is no clear record of that in the scriptures! What about all those texts in the Bible (NT) about when they met to collect money and stuff. Well, I like what our Catholic friends have to say about that at this web site: amazingdiscoveries.org/research/maryonline.htm

By the way this book that I took quote #2 from is listed as being in the Library of the Philadelphia Archdiocesan Historical Research Center At this web site:

rc.net/philadelphia/pahrc/catechisms.html

You can find the book on sale here: (noticed how widely it is distributed)

alibris.com/search/search.cfm?qwork=132993&wtopic=Catechisms%20and%20creeds&ptit=An%20advanced%20catechism%20of%20Catholic%20faith%20and%20practice&pauth=O%27Brien%2C%20Thomas%20John%20%28Compiled%20by%29&pisbn=1417984473&pqty=10&pqtynew=4&pbest=5%2E45&pbestnew=23%2E58&matches=10&qsort=r&cm_re=workslistingtitle

worldcatlibraries.org/wcpa/ow/0ac13305adcc23fd.html

shopping.yahoo.com/p:Advanced%20Catechism%20of%20Catholic%20Faith%20and%20Practice:3004527113;_ylc=X3oDMTB1c21tcDhkBF9TAzk2NjMyOTA3BHNlYwNmZWVkBHNsawNib29rcw–

washingtonbooksellers.com/waba/booklist.asp?db=bisforbook

http://www.kessingerpub.com/searchresults_orderthebook.php?Author=O’Brien,+Thomas+J.

books-by-isbn.com/1-4179/1417984473-An-Advanced-Catechism-of-Catholic-Faith-and-Practice-1-4179-8447-3.html
 
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illuminator:
…I will show them to you but only a few at a time (we’ll start out slow) because I want to take them two by two (like the ark). I have 2 quotes to start out with. Notice that both of them are Cathechisms and have Imprimaturs. They are both WIDELY distributed and you may actually have a copy of one or both of these in your home. I’ve also included where you can obtain a copy if you so desire although I must say that I don’t have any interest in any of the book companies or stock in amazon. 🙂

Quote #1 from “The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine”
"Question - Which is the Sabbath day?
"Answer - Saturday is the Sabbath day.
“Question - Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
“Answer - We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea (A.D. 364), transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.” .”

–Peter Geiermann, The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, 1957 edition, p. 50 [Geiermann (1870-1929) received the “apostolic blessing” of pope Pius X on this book, January 26, 1910]. And IMPRIMATUR, September 16, 1957.



Quote #2: from Advanced Catechism Of Catholic Faith And Practice, based upon the Third Plenary Council Catechism

356: Are the Sabbath day and Sunday the same?

The Sabbath day and Sunday are not the same. The Sabbath is the seventh day of the week, and is the day which was kept holy in the old law; the Sunday is the first day of the week, and is the day which is kept holy in the new law.

Who made the change from Saturday to Sunday?

The change from Saturday to Sunday was made by the Apostles, though the Bible does not clearly teach Sunday observance

Advanced Catechism Of Catholic Faith And Practice, based upon the Third Plenary Council Catechism for use in the higher grades of Catholic Schools, compiled by Rev. Thomas J. O’brien, inspector of Parochial Schools, Diocese of Brooklyn, published by John B. Oink, Chicago Ill., copyright 1929. page 180-182

How about that! It says that the change was made from Saturday to Sunday by the apostles but that there is no clear record of that in the scriptures! …
I am very underwhelmed. Even though none of these books are asserting defined Catholic teaching (regarding Scripture reference to Sunday worship), let’s just assume that they do for the sake of argument:

The worse you could come up with is that Sunday worship is not clearly defined in Scripture. So what? It’s there, it’s indicated, it’s just not clear. You don’t automatically know that the first day of the week or the Lord’s day means Sunday or that what they were doing was worshipping on Sunday. That qualifies as less than clear.

P.S. I’m going to save you some time. If you are looking for a papal or conciliar statement that says “If anyone says that Sunday worship is indicated in Holy Writ, let him be Anathema”, give up… you’re not going to find it.
 
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illuminator:
“The Protestants claim to stand upon the written word only. They profess to hold the Scripture alone as the standard of faith. They justify their revolt by the plea that the Church has apostatized from the written word and follows tradition. Now the Protestants claim, that they stand upon the written word only, is not true. Their profession of holding the Scripture alone as the standard of faith, is false. PROOF: The written word explicitly enjoins the observance of the seventh day as the Sabbath. They do not observe the seventh day, but reject it. If they do truly hold the scripture alone as their standard, they would be observing the seventh day as is enjoined in the Scripture throughout. Yet they not only reject the observance of the Sabbath enjoined in the written word, but they have adopted and do practice the observance of Sunday, for which they have only the tradition of the Church. Consequently the claim of ‘Scripture alone as the standard,’ fails; and the doctrine of ‘Scripture and tradition’ as essential, is fully established, the Protestants themselves being judges.”

SO after the Council of trent - there could be no saying that there was biblical basis for keeping of the Lord’s day.

Yet, I get quotes from Church Militant
please read:
amazingdiscoveries.org/research/maryonline.htm
This quote only serves to prove my point, ie that while the Bible contains evidence supporting Sunday worship instead of Saturday worship, it contains no direct command for the change. Thus Archbishop Reggio is correct: taking ‘Scripture alone as the standard’ leaves no authority for changing the day of worship, thus protestants should worship on saturday.
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illuminator:
What I meant for mutually exclusive was actually the fact that the Protestants were rejected at the Council of Trent on the basis that the Catholics could find no sola scriptura evidence for the Protestants keeping Sunday.
Replace the word “evidence” with “proof” and I agree that this was the arguement made by Archbishop Reggio; however, this was by no means the evidence for rejecting protestantism, merely pointing out an inconsistency (The protestants could have said “you’re right, we will worship on Saturday”, like the SDA, and this inconsistency would have been solved). The biblical evidence is there, its the standard of proof that is not met. Again you are confusing proof and evidence. Consider the Trinity analogy.

Your Quote #2 agrees with this
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illuminator:
The change from Saturday to Sunday was made by the Apostles, though the Bible does not clearly teach Sunday observance
In other words there is evidence in the Bible, but not conclusive evidence, as there is in the historical record and the Church Fathers, ie tradition.
 
Underwhelmed? Well, the point was not to overwhelm you? Remember that you can’t grow a beard in a moment of passion. I want to give it to you slowly so you can check out each reference and see that it’s legit. And now for our next two quotes:

Quote #3 from A Catholic Catechism for the Parochial and Sunday Schools of the United States, a book which was given an Imprimatur from the Archbishop of New York!
  1. Which is the Lord’s Day?
The Lord’s day is Sunday.

The law of Keeping Sunday holy, instead of the Sabbath, was made by the Church, **probably ** by the apostles.

A Catholic Catechism for the Parochial and Sunday Schools of the United States, Rev. James Groenings, Priest of the Society of Jesus, translated by Very Rev. James Rockliff, of the same Society, Benzinger Brothers, Printers to the Holy Apostolic See, copyright 1900, Nihil Obstat: Theodore Van Rossum, S.J., Censor Deputatus, Imprimatur: Michael Augustine, Archbishop of New York.

rc.net/philadelphia/pahrc/catechisms.html
catholicauthors.org/cgi-bin/rpb455/12768.html
biblio.com/books/32381131.html

Notices it says “probably by the apostles” Take this with the last quote which states that “the Bible does not clearly teach Sunday observance” They are simply stating that there is no New Testament basis for the keeping of Sunday (Lord’s Day).

Quote #4 from The Catechism Simply Explained
192 What is the third Commandment?
The third Commandment is, “ Remember that thou keep holy the Sabbath Day.”
193 What are we commanded by the third Commandment?
By the third Commandment we are told to keep Sunday holy. The Jew’s Sabbath Day was Saturday; we Christians keep Sunday holy. The church, by the power our Lord gave her, changed the observance of Saturday to Sunday.”
“A word about Sunday. God said, “Remember that thou keep holy the Sabbath Day.” The Sabbath was Saturday, not Sunday; why, then, do we keep Sunday holy instead of Saturday? The Church altered the observance of the Sabbath to the observance of Sunday in commemoration of our Lord having risen from the dead on Easter Sunday, and of the Holy Ghost having descended upon the apostles on Whit Sunday. Protestants who say that they go by the Bible and the Bible only, and that they do not believe anything that is not in the Bible, must be rather puzzled by the keeping of Sunday when God distinctly said, “Keep holy the Sabbath Day.” The word Sunday does not come anywhere in the Bible, so, without knowing it, they are obeying the authority of the Catholic Church.” – page 89

The Catechism Simply Explained, by H. Canon Cafferata, New Revised and Enlarged (10th) Edition, published in 1932 by Burns Oates & Washbourne Ltd, London, Publishers to the Holy See, NIHIL OBSTAT: Eduardus J. Mahoney, S. Th.D., Censor Deputatus, IMPRIMATUR: Josephus Butt, Vicarius Generalis.

This book is on the recommended reading list of the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia found under “Christian Doctine” at:
newadvent.org/cathen/05075b.htm
and here:
ewtn.com/library/Theology/CE_CDOCT.HTM
and here:
kingkong.demon.co.uk/ngcoba/ca2.htm

Again, the Catholic Fathers are of the opinion that there is no scriptural evidence for the keeping of Sunday (Lord’s day). All is from Tradition.

More quotes tomorrow!
 
OK, I must give you one more text to consider. It is a long one so think about it and read it all. It was taken out of the well known Clifton Tracts according to the Catholic Encyclopedia and various Catholic apologetic web sites:

newadvent.org/cathen/11111a.htm
newadvent.org/cathen/14703a.htm
pcpbooks.com/booklist/booklist0008.html

Clifton Tracts, Volume IV, by the Brotherhood of St. Vincent of Paul, published under the sanction of the Bishop of Clifton, Cardinal Wiseman, and republished with the approbation of the Most Rev. John Hughes, D.D., Archbishop of New York, published circa 1856 in New York by Edward Dunigan and Brother (James B. Kirker), 151 Fulton Street, Near Broadway, contains tract Why Don’t You Keep Holy The Sabbath Day?

Starting with page 6:

“If you are consistent with your own principles, if you really follow the Bible and the Bible only, you ought to be able to produce some portion of the **New Testament ** in which this fourth (third for Catholics) commandment is expressly altered, or at least from which you may confidently

[pg. 7]
infer that it was the will of God that Christians should make that change in its observance which you have made. Let us see whether any such passages can be found. I will look for them in the writings of your own champions [Protestants], who have attempted to defend your practice in this matter.
  1. The first text which I find quoted upon the subject is this: “Let no man judge you in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon, or of the Sabbath-days” (Col. ii. 16). I could understand a Bible Christian arguing from this passage, that we ought to make no difference between Saturday, Sunday, and every other day of the week; that under the Christian dispensation all such distinctions of days were done away with; one day was as good and as holy as another; there were to be no Sabbaths, no holy days at all. But not one syllable does it say about the obligation of the Sabbath being transferred from one day to another.
  2. Secondly, the words of St. John are quoted, "I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day (Apoc. i. 10). Is it possible that anybody can for a moment imagine that here is a safe and clear rule for changing the weekly feast from the seventh to the first day? This
[pg. 8]
passage is utterly silent upon such a subject; it does but give us Scriptural authority for calling some one day in particular (it does not even say which day) “the Lord’s day.”
3. Next we are reminded that St. Paul bade his Corinthian converts, “upon the first day of the week, lay by them in store, that there might be no gatherings” when he himself came (1 Cor. xvi. 2). How is this supposed to affect the law of the Jewish Sabbath? It commands a certain act of almsgiving to be done on the first day of the week. It says absolutely nothing about not doing certain other acts of prayer and public worship on the seventh day.
4. But it was “on the first day of the week” when the disciples were assembled with closed doors for fear of the Jews, and Jesus stood in the midst of them; and again, it was eight days afterwards (that is, on the first day of the following week) that “the disciples were within, and Thomas with them,” and Jesus again came and stood in the midst (John xx. 19, 26): that is to say, it was on the evening of the day of the Resurrection that our Lord first showed Himself to many disciples gathered together; and after eight days He again showed Himself to the same company, with the further addition

continued on next thread:
 
[pg. 9]
of St. Thomas. What is there in these facts to do away with the obligation of keeping holy the seventh day? Our Lord rose from dead on the first day of the week, and on the same day at evening He appears to many of His disciples; He appears again on that day [of the] week, and perhaps also on other days in the interval. Let Protestants, if they will, keep holy the first day of the week in grateful commemoration of that stupendous mystery, the Resurrection of Christ, and of the evidence He vouchsafed to give of it to His doubting disciples; but this is no scriptural authority for ceasing to keep holy another day of the week which God had expressly commanded to be kept holy for another and altogether different reason.
5. But lastly, we have the example of the Apostles themselves. “Upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight” (Acts xx. 7). Here we have clear proof that the disciples came together for the celebration of the Holy Eucharist, and that they heard a sermon on a Sunday. But is there any proof that they had not done the

[pg. 10]
same on Saturday also? Is it not expressly written concerning those same early Christians, that they “continued daily with one accord in the temple, breaking bread from house to house?” (Acts ii. 46). And as a matter of fact, do we not know from other sources that, in many parts of the Church, the ancient Christians were in the habit of meeting together for public worship, to receive Holy Communion, and to perform the other offices, on Saturdays just the same as on Sundays? Again, then, I say, let Protestants keep holy, if they will, the first day of the week, in order that they may resemble those Christians who were gathered together on that day in the upper chamber in Troas; but let them remember that this cannot possibly release them from the obligation of keeping holy another day which Almighty God has ordered to be kept holy, because on that day He “rested from all His work”.
I do not know of any other passages of holy Scripture which Protestants are in the habit of quoting to defend their practice of keeping holy the first day of the week instead of the seventh; yet surely those which I have quoted are not such as should satisfy any reasonable man, who looks upon the written word of God as they

[pg. 11]
profess to look upon it, namely as the one only appointed means of learning God’s will, and who really desires to learn and to obey that will in all things with humbleness and simplicity of heart. It is absolutely impossible that a reasonable and thoughtful person should be satisfied, by the texts that I have quoted, that the almighty God intended the obligation of Saturday under the old law to be transferred to Sunday under the new. And yet Protestants do so transfer it, and never seem to have the slightest misgivings lest, in doing so, they should be guilty of breaking one of God’s commandments. Why is this? Because, although they talk so largely about following the Bible and the Bible only, they are really guided in this matter by the voice of tradition.”

“We Catholics, then, have precisely the same authority for keeping Sunday holy instead of Saturday as we have for every other article of our creed, namely,** the authority of “the Church of the living God, the pillar and ground of truth” (1 Tim. iii 15); whereas you who are Protestants have really no authority for it whatever**; for there is no authority for it in the Bible*, and you will not allow that there can be authority for it anywhere else. Both you and we do, in fact, follow tradition in this matter; but we follow it, believing it to be a part of God’s word, and the Church to be its divinely-appointed guardian and interpreter; you follow it, denouncing it all the time as a fallible and treacherous guide, which often “make the commandment of God of none effect.”

I think it has made my point! 👍*
 
Just to be sure we are clear for Lava Lamp’s sake, if you look at #96 and #97 (The Clifton Tracts quote), not only is he stating that there is no Biblical (New Testament) evidence for the switch from Saturday to Sunday, he is also making the point that the few times that things happened on the first day of the week (as recorded in the NT) were not even holy meetings that would even qualify as activity for the Lord’s Day. Things that happened on “Sunday” could also have happened on any other day of the week.

“Here we have clear proof that the disciples came together for the celebration of the Holy Eucharist, and that they heard a sermon on a Sunday. But is there any proof that they had not done the same on Saturday also? Is it not expressly written concerning those same early Christians, that they “continued **daily ** with one accord in the temple, breaking bread from house to house?” (Acts ii. 46). And as a matter of fact, do we not know from other sources that, in many parts of the Church, the ancient Christians were in the habit of meeting together for public worship, to receive Holy Communion, and to perform the other offices, on Saturdays just the same as on Sundays?”

Now LavaLamp said,

"…while the Bible contains evidence supporting Sunday worship instead of Saturday worship, it contains no direct command for the change. "

Well you are half right. according to The Clifton Tracts quote, the Bible contains **NO ** evidence supporting Sunday worship instead of Saturday worship - none at all. Remember that this quote is in a book that is in several Catholic apologists web sites:

newadvent.org/cathen/11111a.htm
newadvent.org/cathen/14703a.htm
pcpbooks.com/booklist/booklist0008.html

It’s a real book, a real quote, and one that you have to deal with.

🙂
 
I’ve been popping in from time to time to see if anyone has anything to say about the “why” of SS, but instead, I see a thousand posts about Sunday worship. Seriously–get a new issue. It’s boring.

Besides, if the Church wants to “loose” worship from Sunday and “bind” it to Thursday, that’s its perogative.

The Sunday debate is so…tedious. It’s about as important as the “cross vs. crucifix” debate.
 
Having drifted badly from it’s original topic.
This thread is now closed.
 
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