Why is strictness or judgment frowned upon?

  • Thread starter Thread starter MargaretofCortona
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
SuperLuigi said:
The big no-no is calling people out in Church unless you are hired help at a cathedral or some such place that has a dress code.
Click to expand...
Yeah. I think within a parish (unless perhaps a tourist parish), such a thing should be limited to the priest or perhaps a deacon. Most of the cases I can think of involved children - I suspect there is more discretion for a youth leader to ask teenagers to cover up than there would be with an adult.
SuperLuigi said:
As I told Darklight, a big chunk of this issue is people don’t really think a lot about what they wear, and if you are talking North America most people probably dress for the weather and don’t think twice about.
Click to expand...
Clothing blends together for women a lot more than for me, as well. Men’s nice clothing is much more uniform, and tends to show little. A guy has to make a special effort to look sexualized. As a woman, there is a much finer transition between “pretty” and “dressed-up” and “sexy.” I had a few cases as a young woman where I just thought a dress looked nice and my mother patiently explained that young men would not see it that way.
 
There is nothing wrong with strictness or judgement per se. We should be strict about moral issues. But, to be fair, as a culture, we have a tendency to swing back and forth between extremes. (I.e. Everything is permissible or nothing is permissible)
Also, there have been times in our culture, that people used truly silly yardsticks to judge and place people in a category, them keep them in their place (The horror if you didn’t know what fork to use to eat oysters!). Yardsticks that were man-made and not moral imperatives.
Okay. Now for the booty-shorts. First of all, most people don’t have the figure to pull this look off well (sorry, the truth hurts). And, we do have standards of modesty and appropriateness in our culture. The lady in question? One of her close friends should tell her not to wear them to church. If anybody from the church that she doesn’t know well tells her, it will backfire spectacularly. If the priest talks about it from the pulpit? Backfire.
However, (and a shrine near me does this) the church could post guidelines in the vestibule for recommended clothing. They don’t throw anybody out, or confront anybody directly. The folks who attend dress modestly, even if it’s jeans and tee shirt.
That said, I can picture an inner-city parish and some poor streetwalker in the process of conversion who comes into the church for refuge or prayer, to find the Lord.
But I doubt that’s what’s happening in the OP’s post 🙂
 
I don’t want to be the person who is interfering with someones relationship with Christ and the church, and realize that my opinions on what is acceptable at times is not important.
 
Last edited:
This scripture comes to mind:

1 Corinthians 10:23-24 (RSVCE): “All things are lawful,” but not all things are helpful. “All things are lawful,” but not all things build up. Let no one seek his own good, but the good of his neighbor.

Another translation of lawful is permissible. Any dress is lawful or permissible to attend mass; however, that doesn’t make it helpful to others in attendance and consideration should be given to how your clothing may impact those around you. Consideration not slavery.

However, this scripture is also relevant:

Matthew 7:1-5 (RSVCE): “Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.

There are two points; first, don’t judge people. If a woman comes in a crop top and booty shorts don’t jump to assumptions about her character. Rejoice that she has chosen to come before God as she is. Yes, her attire is a fierce distraction to the men in attendance but there are so many extenuating circumstances that call for grace for her. The second point, remove your own log. If you value grace and modesty be an example of that grace and modesty. You will be a far better witness by being kind than by being right.
 
I think there is two things going on here
  1. The totally theoretical debating done by people who like to out-posture each other
AND
  1. The real-life implications and decisions people make that may not respect the rules OR ones they make to “enforce” rules
And in some respects, these are two different conversations. It’s easy to discuss theory. In the case of #1, it’s easy to feel attacked, easy for someone to feel sexualized, victimized or unlovable because they dress a certain way. And that’s totally understandable, especially given that many of the directives fall only on women.

In the case of #2 we’ve got a few things. For one, a big, giant case of MYOB. For the most part, the dressing of others has no impact on us. We also may have situations that call us to dress in a less than ideal way…a toddler puked on your last clean pair of pants so now you have to wear shorts that don’t go to the knee…or you’re racing from work…or you simply forgot you’re still in gym clothes.
 
Extreme immodesty is not okay anywhere, especially not God’s house.

But if someone is in jeans and sandals at mass, im just glad they are there.

Better than the snobbish anglicans I grew up with, always competing to wear the most fashionable and expensive clothes to church.
 
In real life, I rarely notice another woman’s clothes at church. We were simply debating modesty. I don’t know why clothing choices is such a touchy subject. Why people feel judged?
 
MargaretofCortona said:
In real life, I rarely notice another woman’s clothes at church. We were simply debating modesty. I don’t know why clothing choices is such a touchy subject. Why people feel judged?
Click to expand...
Because we live in a culture where we have men–like the other poster–who feel they can demand that women wear skirts.

We also live in a culture where it’s become completely acceptable for women to be catty towards eachother.
 
It’s important to listen, but it’s worth noting that “you can’t judge me” is the first line of defense when it comes to sexual sins.

I think the central problem here is people are not really thinking about what they wear beyond the weather.
 
I don’t see the big deal in telling someone to dress more appropriately considering the setting. I’m talking in extremes. I work in a classroom. My friend warned me my skirt slit was too high. Then I went outside and the wind blew. I learned that my skirt slit was indeed too high. What’s wrong with dressing for your environment?
At work, I was warned my shorts were see-through you could see my panties and they were too short. They were white shorts. Should I have argued with my boss? I work with minors.

Now if I was walking down the street and a random person commented on my dressing - that is being judgmental and that’s when people should mind their own business. What’s wrong with dressing appropiate to your environment?

Or if someone commented on what I decided to wear at home, grocery store, etc - that’s when they should mind their own business.
 
I have to wholeheartedly agree with you on your first sentence. “Don’t judge” is always the first line of defense when someone is called out on a personal sexual sin.

I don’t think most people care whether what they wear offends or makes others uncomfortable. After all, it is your problem for looking or feeling uncomfortable.
 
MargaretofCortona said:
I don’t see the big deal in telling someone to dress more appropriately considering the setting. I’m talking in extremes. I work in a classroom. My friend warned me my skirt slit was too high. Then I went outside and the wind blew. I learned that my skirt slit was indeed too high. What’s wrong with dressing for your environment?
At work, I was warned my shorts were see-through you could see my panties and they were too short. They were white shorts. Should I have argued with my boss? I work with minors.

Now if I was walking down the street and a random person commented on my dressing - that is being judgmental and that’s when people should mind their own business. What’s wrong with dressing appropiate to your environment?

Or if someone commented on what I decided to wear at home, grocery store, etc - that’s when they should mind their own business.
Click to expand...
Because, in general, when we are telling people how to dress we don’t have their best interests in mind. We also tend to have several degrees of separation from them. I worked in a very young office that was business casual. One of my co-workers came in with quite the transparent blouse. It wasn’t appropriate–but I did not comment because I was her co-worker and my manager was really good about addressing these sorts of issues. It is incredibly appropriate in the manager-subordinate relationship. It would have been inappropriate for a random parent from another child’s class to say “Miss Margret has slutty pants on and she needs to change”

And I think that’s what women face a lot. And that’s what needs to change. People who are managers need to manage. People who are not someone’s manager needs to not be catty. If they see something inappropriate they should make a kind, tactful comment directly to the person’s face–or speak to their manager if they are not. So “Margaret, love the shorts, but you’re going to have the kids saying ‘teacher, teacher, I declare, I see teacher’s underwear.’ Kids, KWIM?”

And that’s the thing. For the most part, we need to rely on the fact that people will have someone in their lives to correct them. Someone to speak kindly. More often than not, however, what people need (a kind word) and what people get (judgemental foolery) are two different things.
 
I think there’s also a difference between warning of potential or accidental wardrobe malfunctions, and telling someone that an outfit where they’re showing off what they intended to show off isn’t appropriate. Underwear lines were mentioned upthread - most women don’t want people seeing their underwear lines and it’s typically an accident, so it’s more ok to quietly tell a colleague that they’ve got underwear lines showing.
 
I guess I don’t understand immodest dress for Mass.

My parents visited several years ago and we attended both Saturday and Sunday Mass at both parishes in our town.

I wasn’t expecting Sunday Mass right after a day of sightseeing downtown, and felt embarrassed and humiliated to be wearing my “street clothes” in which my shirt had esoteric symbols on them and the short sleeves and capri pants made my tattoos visible.

I was worried I would be a distraction.

I did receive a few odd glances from some of the older, more conservative ladies in attendance, and felt embarrassed I was not in more presentable and traditional attire.

My Stepfather on the other hand assured me that God has no issue with how we are dressed, and that He is happy that we are present in the Church for Service and knew that I would have dressed appropriately had I known beforehand.

While I tend to be more conservatively minded I would try my best not to judge another for their personal presentation as long as they are respectful of the Mass and the Sacred Environment in other ways.
 
Last edited:
This is not a complete answer. But truly, when a person dresses with the intention of inciting lust in any circumstance, it is a grave matter. And can lead to sacrilege because the Sacrament of Confession was not sought with the intention to eat the body and blood. St. Paul gives sacrilege the reason why many of the Corinthians were sick. People who feed on lust or deliberately inspire lust, are in need of the divine physician. Fraternal correction should be given with wisdom.
 
Last edited:
Sexy clothes are usually not comfortable (Haha). Those who don’t think about what they wear, especially at Mass, are not exercising the virtue of modesty.
 
How you dress reflects how you are on the inside.
St Padre Pio refused women into confession not wearing skirts or wearing skirts that weren’t 8 inches below the knee. He was harsh about it and for good reason. Once people realize there is leeway, they’ll try to go around the rule.

“The Church is the house of God. It is forbidden for men to enter with bare arms or in shorts. It is forbidden for women to enter in trousers, without a veil on their head, in short clothing, low necklines, sleeveless or immodest dresses.”
  • Signs on the doors of San Giovanni Rotondo
Sometimes when Padre Pio refused to absolve his penitents and closed the confessional door in their faces, the people would reproach him asking why he acted this way. “Don’t you know,” he asked, “what pain it costs me to shut the door on anyone? The Lord has forced me to do so. I do not call anyone, nor do I refuse anyone either. There is someone else who calls and refuses them. I am His useless tool.”’

Modesty is so important and we don’t even realize it.

"There are three virtues which perfect the devout person with regard to control of his own senses. These are: modesty, continence and chastity. By the virtue of modesty the devout person governs all his exterior acts. With good reason, then, does St. Paul recommend this virtue to all and declare how necessary it is and as if this were not enough he considers that this virtue should be obvious to all. By continence the soul exercises restraint over all the senses: sight, touch, taste, smell and hearing. By chastity, a virtue which ennobles our nature and makes it similar to that of the Angels, we suppress our sensuality and detach it from forbidden pleasures.

This is the magnificent picture of Christian perfection. Happy the one who possesses all these fine virtues, all of them fruits of the Holy Spirit who dwells within him. Such a soul has nothing to fear and will shine in the world as the sun in the heavens."

-Padre Pio
 
Last edited:
MargaretofCortona asked: What’s wrong with thinking people should dress appropriately for church?
The only thing I can see wrong is the focus to the outside. Rather, I should shift focus by asking myself: do I profit from this exhortation from St. Ambrose:

“We state nothing to be useful except that which will help us to the blessing of eternal life, certainly not that which will help us enjoy merely the present time.” (1, 9, 28, On the Duties of the Clergy)

Am I distracted by my own wants for special clothes? If anything, How many? Will it ever stop? Do I consider any or all present enjoyments as “useful” and still trust in the truth? What spiritual reading do I neglect to give myself the opportunity to allow God to change me for the truth?
 
Last edited:
The one thing to keep in mind is that you are presenting yourself before God at the Eucharist. That’s a more important reason for nice dress than being conservative or nostalgic.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top