why is sunday instead of saturday the sabboth?

[happilycatholic]

The 10C’s are based on the command to love–remember that Jesus cited two texts from the Torah when asked about the Law. So, when we do not love God and our fellow man we violate the spirit of the 10C’s. When we break the letter of the 10C’s we break the spirit of the Law as well.

And so what is your penance when you do that?

 

[SDA2RC]

Happily Catholic…

You seem to be contradicting yourself… you are saying that if the Adventists keep the Sabbath then they must keep the Mosaic Law… but you are saying you can separate the two (which is what they do) and only keep the Commandments.

However, if that were true, then you would go to Church on Saturday. Are the commandments binding on you or not? If you dont have to keep the Commandment to observe the 7th day as the Sabbath, what are you basing that on? I am trying to understand your position.

Brandon

Here is my original post. As you can see, I was asking why Christians were still worshipping on Saturday. I also asked if you were going to worship on Saturday, why not keep the rest of the Law and offer animal sacrifice. All are a part of the Mosaic Law. Part the religious duties, part the ceremonial. I did not make any distiction between Mosiac Law and “God’s Law”. Because it is all God’s Law. However there is a distinction between the Commandments and the Law. Paul makes this distinction several times in his epistles. Obviously, he is speaking of ceremonial law.

We as Christians are not bound to the Sabbath. We are bound to keep the Lord’s Day. But if you choose to keep the Sabbath how do you get around keeping the rest of Mosaic Law? Since you are keeping the Sabbath, what about the law surrounding the keeping of the Sabbath (as a day of worship)?

The fact is, SDAs are thoroughly confused. They keep parts of it because they cannot separate it. They contend that they do by saying, “Mosaic Law and God’s Law”. Because the Commandments say, “Keep the Sabbath Holy”, SDAs contend that this is “God’s Law” but because they can’t make animal sacrifices and they claim to be Christian, they say it is separate from “Mosaic Law”. But then they choose to keep the OT clean-unclean meats doctrine. What about other forms of impurity?

However, clearly they do not know the difference between Mosaic Law and the Commandment Law and the New Covenant. And it’s clear in some of the posts here that lingers.

As catholics we have no problem separating Mosaic Law from the Ten Commandments because Jesus reitereated the Commandments consistantly throughout the NT. The ceremonial laws of the Old Covenant have been nailed to the cross. That is not to say we don’t keep some of the other laws regarding relationships, tithes, marriage, divorce, etc. Jesus and His Apostles taught these things.

There seems to be some residue left in former SDAs here on this forum. This “God’s Law” doctrine is why they are confused. They call the Commandments “God’s Eternal Law” which is correct, however they use it as if to say because it’s God’s Law we cannot separate it from Mosaic Law and hence, the doctrine of unclean meat and other doctrines within the church. And further, they use that against catholics by stating that we changed the day of worship.

I hate to say this, but it makes me suspicious of folks who talk in circles to try to prove a point that is of another faith.

The catechism does not take the place of your priest or your spiritual advisor but it does offer a very complete study on the catholic faith. It is not just a reference book. That too seems to be residue insomuch as SDAs reject the teaching of the Magisterium as binding on us as catholics. Also suspect.

Doug Bachelor does this very same thing in his book.

 

[happilycatholic]

Where in the 10 Commandments does it say you cant Marry your cousin?

Wow, again I’m shocked. Incest is clearly covered under the commandment regarding adultrey which involves various forms of sexual sin. Do you have a confession guide handy? Look there. Many forms of sexual deviation are found there.

I’m surprised as SDA knows that but you do not.

 

[happilycatholic]

Happily Catholic…

You seem to be contradicting yourself… you are saying that if the Adventists keep the Sabbath then they must keep the Mosaic Law… but you are saying you can separate the two (which is what they do) and only keep the Commandments.

However, if that were true, then you would go to Church on Saturday. Are the commandments binding on you or not? If you dont have to keep the Commandment to observe the 7th day as the Sabbath, what are you basing that on? I am trying to understand your position.

Brandon

First of all, obviously it is a battle with you as to the separation or not of the Mosaic Law and the Commandments, which you continue to refer to as God’s Law.

No, they separate them when they want to prove that the Sabbath is the day of worship. They combine the two by saying you cannot set asunder “God’s Law” (in order to keep the Sabbath).

My position is the same as every catholic who has been correctly catechized. The Church still recognizes Saturday as the Sabbeth as it was given to the Isrealites in the Old Covenant. That cannot ever be changed. Right?

However, the day of worship is correctly, the Lord’s Day or Sunday as it was constituted by Christ’s resurrection.

My whole point is this SDAs combine the two when it’s convenient by calling it “God’s Law” and separate the two when it’s convenient to Claim they are Christian. Because to continue to worship on Saturday is Jewish, not Christian.

That is the reason they are confused and struggle with Mosaic Law and the Commandments. And for some odd reason they add in there the purity doctrines, or at least part of it. That makes no sense whatsoever. And they used to throw in the doctrines on proper dress. That’s fallen by the wayside as well.

Catholics take the same position no matter what the argument. The Mosaic Law is the Old Covenant. Jesus is the New Covenant. Jesus reiterated the Commandments in the NT and the ceremonial Law was nailed to the cross.

It’s really not that confusing if you’ll lay down that whole “God’s Law” doctrine. It’s all God’s law, we just know which parts of it were intended as the Covenant with the Jews and which was the Covenant with Christians. You cannot separtate Mosaic Law from God’s Law. But you can separate Mosaic Law from Commandment Law.

If it makes any difference, I think you and I actually agree. It’s just that the use of the term “God’s Law” was used to confuse SDA’s into continuing the Sabbath as the day of worship. They use that so as to make their claim that the catholic church has set asunder the Commandments by changing the day of worhsip.

That is why we as catholics are in conflict with that term.

 

[happilycatholic]

The Bible does. Only the 10C’s were written on stone (symbolizing their permanence) placed inside the Ark, under the mercy seat. The ceremonial laws, etc. were rolled up (written on skins, symbolizing that they were transitory) and placed out side.

See, I told you SDA2RC!

DJ:

It is all God’s Law. However, yes the Commandments were written by the finger of God and meant to be eternal. That is why Jesus reiterated them in the NT.

I will not argue with that. But we as catholics do not distinguish the Commandments with the term “God’s Law” as I said it is all God’s Law.

 

[Marsha_Adams]

I’m still waiting for the proof. I guess the last line is good advice.

As an SDA I read Great Controversy and it is definitely anti-Catholic. That is why SDAs hand it out to Catholics like candy, to use it to seduce them away from the Truth with lies.

 

[djconklin]

The reason I say you take what you want stems from my original question which by the way is a genuine one, not a sarcastic one.

It came across as sarcastic.

You worship on the Sabbath, but you do not follow the ceremonial law surrounding the keeping of the Sabbath such as animal sacrifice.

The Sabbath is part of the 10C, same as not stealing or killing, while the sacrifical laws were fulfilled at the Cross with the death of Christ (to whom they pointed). I had stated this before.

You follow the clean-unclean doctrine with regard to meats but you don’t follow the rest of the doctrine with regard to women who have given birth and are menstrating and other aspects.

The clean-unclean meat issue is for health, as I stated before. The rules about women menstrating were because blood is the symbol of life (Leviticus 17:11 “the life of the flesh is in the blood”).

I just wonder what the justification within the church is for this.

Now answer my question:

Note that in the NT they commnaded the Gentiles to not eat things that were strangled (a provision of the Mosaic law)–did they take what they wanted too?

and not just the question itself, but noting that the ruling was part of the “Mosiac law.”

 

[djconklin]

Originally Posted by djconklin
I’m still waiting for the proof. I guess the last line is good advice.

As an SDA I read Great Controversy and it is definitely anti-Catholic. That is why SDAs hand it out to Catholics like candy, to use it to seduce them away from the Truth with lies.

And I’m still waiting. Pure propganda and bunk. It could be a case of seeing what you wanted to see. I’m certainly not anti-catholic, nor is anyone I know of.

 

[SDA2RC]

Further on the subject of Mosaic Law. In the first place, my distinction was in Mosaic Law and the Ten Commandments.

There is no distinction, the Ten Commandments are PART of the Mosaic law… you can define something apart from its self. The Mosaic Law is the Ten Commandments (and More) and the Ten Commandments are the Mosaic Law (and the Law is also More than just the 10 Commandments.)

The obvious is true. The Ten Commandments WERE included in the books of Moses. However, the Ten Commandments were written by the Hand of God and reiterated in the NT and by Jesus Himself. The catechism do not speak of them as one and the same law.

It never separates them either… When talking of the 10 Commandments, it is speaking specifically of that part of the Mosaic Law. Never in the Catechism does it seperate the two as two separate laws, that would be contrary to Catholic theology. When the Catechism speaks of the Law of Moses, it never excludes the 10 Commandments. You are speaking as though the Catechism makes them mutually exclusive, and it doesn’t. I think the separation you are seeing in the Catechism comes more from your understanding than from the Catechism its self.

Both are God’s Law, that is just a simple fact. I don’t mind that SDAs on this thread continue to try and take the position that Mosaic Law and God’s Law are one and the same

SDA’s DONT SAY THAT, and THEY HAVE TOLD YOU THAT THEY DONT SAY THAT!!! That is a Catholic position, not an Adventist one!!! I am not sure how to make it any more clear to you… DJ has told you they do not try to make them one law, both Marsha and myself have told you that you are misunderstanding this… I am not sure what else to do. You appear to seriously misunderstand the Catholic vs. Adventists Position on this issue.

The Seventh Day Adventist Church is the only faith I know of that says, “Mosaic Law and “God’s Law”” cannot be divided.

ROTFL… (pulling my hair out)… ADVENTISTS DO NOT BELIEVE THAT THE MOSAIC AND GOD’S LAW CANNOT BE DIVIDED!!! They believe there are two laws in the Old Testament, one law that has been done away with… the Mosaic Law. One law that remains Gods Law which are the 10 Commandments. This is how they justify keeping the Sabbath, but not doing sacrifices.

You have the Catholic and Adventist positions confused!

I’m a little alerted to the fact that their are former SDAs on this forum who still hold to this belief. You continue to go around in circles to try to prove the difference and then you say they are one and the same.

I am a little concerned that you still are acusing Adventists of believing somethign that they dont believe and accuse us Catholics of believing the wrong belief because we hold to Catholic Teachings. I presented you with numerous citations on the subject from the CAtholic encyclopedia, Archbishops, other Catholic webpages… all of which included the 10 Commandments as part of the Mosaic law

Once again, since God’s Law is not a term used by the catechism, we are speaking of The Ten Commandments and Mosaic Law. While they are together in authorship and location in scripture, they are different. Especially the ceremonial portion of Mosaic Law. Those were the laws Jesus spoke of as a shadow of things to come. Those are predominantly the laws nailed to the cross.

Happily, You just laid out the Adventists belief of the Law and are trying to claim it is the Catholic belief. It doesnt matter if God’s Law is not a term used in the Catechism, it is a term used in scripture… so I suggest you look at what it means.

And to whomever said that the catechism is a “guide” or whatever, you may want to take that to your parish. While it is a guide it is also our interpretation of our faith. It is where we as catholics go when we need an interpretation of something scriptural.

It is ONE of the places Catholics go when we need an interpretation of something… it is not the only place or the most exhaustive treatment of subjects.

This is what SDAs do. You can read The Richest Caveman and you will see Doug Bachelor do the same. He talks in circles about this very same issue.

And yet I havent change my position once and have backed it up with numerous citations… but I am the one talking in circles… LOL

Take a look at the posts on this, both Catholics and Adventists have told you that you are not representing their posititions correctly. You believe you know better than the rest of us what Adventists and Catholics believe, even when both myself and Marsha have told you that you are not correct when it comes to your understanding of the law… and DJ has told you that you are not correct when it comes to your understanding of the Adventist belief in the law.

You have provided no proof of your assertions and no documentation to support what you have said… yet you keep claiming that we are wrong and how “alerted” you are that us Catholics would be saying this.

I am at a loss for how to help you here…

 

[djconklin]

Anti-Catholicism is a generic term for discrimination, hostility or prejudice directed at the Roman Catholic Church or its members. The term also applies to the religious persecution of Catholics.

ROFL! That’s a hoot the SDA’s “persecuting” the catholics!

Adventism as a religion, and many of its members, are definitely Anti-Catholic.

Now we’re down from SDA’s (as if all or the whole church was that way) to “many of its members.” Care to guess why we don’t see the statistical study that proved that? Since neither I, nor anyone I know of is and the evidence I have produced shows that we are not anti-catholic, we can know that such a claim is pure baloney.

 

[happilycatholic]

Here’s the simplest way I can put it.

SDAs believe that “God’s Law” says to “worship” on the Sabbath therefor “God’s Law” cannot be set asunder.

Catholics believe that there are more Laws from God than just what are in the Commandments. We believe Christ “reformulated” (that may not be proper, sorry best I can do) God’s Law in His Passion.

SDAs then proceed do exactly as they say is wrong and set asunder “God’s Law” because the Mosaic Law is an extension of the Commandments and they worship on Saturday but do not follow all the doctrines related to Keeping the Sabbath Holy.

If you are going to keep the Sabbath Holy (as a day of worship), you must follow the laws to do so. ALL of them. Those very things are what was nailed to the cross. The sacrifice, purity laws, etc. You can’t have it both ways. You either believe Christ died for you or you don’t. The mixture of the two is nothing less than non-belief.

Catholics however do not set asunder the Commandments, we still believe that Saturday is the Sabbath. However, we follow what Christ and His Apostles taught with regard to the “Law” believed to be the ceremonial parts of the Mosaic Law. This is how we distinguish between the two. Just as Christ and the Apostles instructed us to do.

Am I wrong? Fourteen months of catechism and years of study have failed me?

 

[SDA2RC]

See, I told you SDA2RC!

DJ:

It is all God’s Law. However, yes the Commandments were written by the finger of God and meant to be eternal. That is why Jesus reiterated them in the NT.

I will not argue with that. But we as catholics do not distinguish the Commandments with the term “God’s Law” as I said it is all God’s Law.

Yes… you told me Happily Catholic…

Happily, I hope you notice that DJ is agreeing with your position… Do you think that is because he has suddenly become Catholic? No its because the position that you keep claiming is the Catholic position is actually what the ADVENTIST’s teach… its not the CATHOLIC one!

And then your so happy and say “see Brandon”… LOL

ROTFL…

 

[Marsha_Adams]

We also don’t “take what we want” from the Mosiac law. Note that in the NT they commnaded the Gentiles to not eat things that were strangled (a provision of the Mosaic law)–did they take what they wanted too?

The passage that you refer to in Acts shows the Church in Council requiring the gentile Christians to abstain from meat offered to idols, to abstain from meat that was strangled (still contained blood), and fornication. Two things about this is significant. First, the Apostolic Church had authority over Scripture to declare what must be observed and what need not be observed. Second, the Church did not require them to abstain from unclean meat, nor to keep the Sabbath and holy days, nor to circumcise, nor any of the 613 points of the law (moral, civil and ceremonial).

What authority does the SDA denomination have over the Scripture?

Marsha

 

[djconklin]

In my first response I actually mistakenly thought you were admitting the EGW doctrines.

EGW didn’t have doctrines. She constantly pointed people to the Bible.

"Lay Sister White right to one side: lay her to one side. Don’t you never [sic] quote my words again as long as you live, until you can obey the Bible. When you take the Bible and make that your food, and your meat, and your drink, and you make that the elements of your character, when you can do that you will know better how to receive some counsel from God. But here is the Word, the precious Word, exalted before you today. And don’t you give a rap any more what ‘Sister White Said’ —‘Sister White said this,’ and ‘Sister White said that,’ and ‘Sister White said the other thing’. But say, ‘Thus saith the Lord God of Israel.’ Spalding and Magan Collection

If your church does not take their doctrines from EGW can you explain the doctrine of belief that you are the Remnant church as manifested by EGW’s ability to prophesy?

Your statement is illogical (the one doesn’t follow from the other) and I clearly showed that our beliefs are based on Scripture.

Your church was founded on her visions that the prophesy of the Oct. 22, 1844 date given as the end-time was actally a mistake in the event and not the date.

1. the church was NOT founded on her visions. 2) She didn’t have any vision(s) prior to Oct 22, so she obviously couldn’t have been predicting the event or the time.

Did she not have a vision wherein she saw Jesus going into the Holy Place to begin investigative judgement? Which is also an EGW doctrine?

The first is true–the second is false. The IJ is biblical.

Both the Remant church manifested in EGW prophesy and the investigative judgement doctrines are both listed in the list of Fundamental Beliefs on your General Conference website

Non sequitur; see my 2nd answer.

It seems as if you been deceived by one of those off-shoot groups which act as if they were the SDA church–there’s a number of those.

 

[djconklin]

I totally agree with this although SDAs are never going to come out and admit it. It just won’t happen.

Can’t admit what ain’t so.

 

[SDA2RC]

ROFL! That’s a hoot the SDA’s “persecuting” the catholics!

Now we’re down from SDA’s (as if all or the whole church was that way) to “many of its members.” Care to guess why we don’t see the statistical study that proved that? Since neither I, nor anyone I know of is and the evidence I have produced shows that we are not anti-catholic, we can know that such a claim is pure baloney.

Actually… if you would read closer DJ, I said AS A RELIGION AND AS A PEOPLE… not just its members. LOL

And I provided just s SMALL sampling of the proof available.

You dont think its wrong of EGW to use Bigoted, prejudiced terms in reference to Catholics.

The Anti-Semites think its ok to use bigoted and prejudiced terms in reference to Jews…

The Neo-Arians think it is ok to use bigoted and prejudiced terms in reference to the Blacks,

See the similarities?

 

[djconklin]

The sign, or seal, of God is revealed in the observance of the seventh-day Sabbath, the Lord’s memorial of creation. . . . The mark of the beast is the opposite of this–the observance of the first day of the week.

And why would this be anti-catholic? Is “Jesus loves me for the Bible tells me so” anti-catholic?

 

[djconklin]

Originally Posted by djconklin
The 10C’s are based on the command to love–remember that Jesus cited two texts from the Torah when asked about the Law. So, when we do not love God and our fellow man we violate the spirit of the 10C’s. When we break the letter of the 10C’s we break the spirit of the Law as well.

And so what is your penance when you do that?

We don’t do penance; we confess our sins directly to God and ask for the blood of Christ to cover our sins.

Hebrews 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

 

[djconklin]

Originally Posted by SDA2RC
Where in the 10 Commandments does it say you cant Marry your cousin?

Wow, again I’m shocked. Incest is clearly covered under the commandment regarding adultrey which involves various forms of sexual sin. Do you have a confession guide handy? Look there. Many forms of sexual deviation are found there.

I’m surprised as SDA knows that but you do not.

I’m not surprised. And the next ploy would be to ask where does the Bible use the word “incest” or “cousin”? If the Bible isn’t explicit in its use of the terms (like 'investigative judgment") they use that as an excuse to not believe.

 

[djconklin]

The Mosaic Law is the Old Covenant. Jesus is the New Covenant. Jesus reiterated the Commandments in the NT and the ceremonial Law was nailed to the cross.

A tad oversimplified, but close enough for the forum. Preach it!

Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting [cheirographon–handwriting of debt] of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;