why is sunday instead of saturday the sabboth?

[happilycatholic]

Yes… you told me Happily Catholic…

Happily, I hope you notice that DJ is agreeing with your position… Do you think that is because he has suddenly become Catholic? No its because the position that you keep claiming is the Catholic position is actually what the ADVENTIST’s teach… its not the CATHOLIC one!

And then your so happy and say “see Brandon”… LOL

ROTFL…

She is only agreeing with my position that it is all God’s law, because they will admit that. It would be pretty ignorant not to. And so if they do, why the need to call the Commandments “God’s Law”?

If you could stop trying to prove you know more than I you may just see the simple point here:

THE ONLY NEED TO DIFFERENCIATE BETWEEN THE MOSAIC LAW AND THE COMMANDMENTS IS SO THAT THEY CAN CONTINUE TO KEEP THE SABBATH HOLY.

What do you not get about that. We are in total agreement with the rest. The fact that you hold on to this is weird, since we essentially agree.

As I’ve told you before, the God’s Law term is not catholic. It’s SDA. You can say that all you want, but you are WRONG.

I’ve never said the Commandments were not “part” of Mosiac Law, in fact I’ve said otherwise NUMEROUS TIMES.

Your confusion stems from the misleading term “God’s Law”. This is a term used by SDAs to press their followers to continue to keep the Sabbath Holy, that is to worship on Saturday so as not to be guilty of setting asunder God’s law as they accuse catholics of doing! YOU SHOULD KNOW THIS!!!

You can laugh all you want. You are the one with the leftover doctrines.

Proof? Show me in the Catechism where it refers to the Commandments as “God’s Law”. THEY WON’T, ALL BIBLICAL LAW IS GOD’S LAW!!! That would be completely stupid.

And how in the heck can you not see incest as a form of sexual sin coming under the 7th Commandment if you are catholic!!!

I have never in my life heard a catholic say, “tell me in the Bible where it says marrying your cousin is a sin”. That is a very Protestant thing to say!!

 

[djconklin]

However, the day of worship is correctly, the Lord’s Day or Sunday as it was constituted by Christ’s resurrection.

Not a NT teaching:

Acts 1:22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Baptism by immersion is the Christian symbol of Christ’s resurrection applied to our own life.

In the floor of the Leaning Tower of Pisa there’s an outline of the stone covering the baptismal tank. Saw that in a slide show at Notre Dame.

Most Christsians were still keeping the Sabbath as late as the 5th century.

 

[SDA2RC]

However, we follow what Christ and His Apostles taught with regard to the “Law” believed to be the ceremonial parts of the Mosaic Law. This is how we distinguish between the two. Just as Christ and the Apostles instructed us to do.

Am I wrong? Fourteen months of catechism and years of study have failed me?

Hug…

The Apostles never taught that the LAW was only the ceremonial parts of the Mosaic Law… that is what the Adventists teach.

As Catholics we believe that there was one Law in the OT… we are no longer under that law… although its moral precepts (not ceremonial) are now part of the New Covenant. We obey the Moral precepts of the Ten Commandments, not the ceremonial. If the Ten Commandments were still binding on us as a whole law, then we would have to go to Church on Saturday.

They are not… only their moral precepts, which are part of the New Covenant, and fulfilled in our Sunday worship.

 

[djconklin]

However, yes the Commandments were written by the finger of God and meant to be eternal. That is why Jesus reiterated them in the NT.

Bingo! You are correct.

 

[djconklin]

My whole point is this SDAs combine the two when it’s convenient by calling it “God’s Law”

SDA’s never do that–you have been misled.

 

[happilycatholic]

We don’t do penance; we confess our sins directly to God and ask for the blood of Christ to cover our sins.

Hebrews 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

I guess what I meant is if you believe that Christ came to die for your sins so that you can attain forgiveness such as the NT teaches. Then why do you not believe that Sunday worship is correct and instead worship on the day given to the Isrealites. And also worry about unclean meats.

Thank you for anwering my questions by the way. It’s funny that I’m arguing with people of my own faith and having good informative conversation with an SDA. I have lots of SDA friends and I think this is why we get along. I don’t condemn, I just am very curious as to how they can mix their beliefs between to OT and the NT. I’ve been accused of “sleeping with the enemy” on some of the SDA related threads.

Thanks again.

 

[djconklin]

The Apostles never taught that the LAW was only the ceremonial parts of the Mosaic Law… that is what the Adventists teach.

SDA’s have never taught that.

 

[SDA2RC]

I’m not surprised. And the next ploy would be to ask where does the Bible use the word “incest” or “cousin”? If the Bible isn’t explicit in its use of the terms (like 'investigative judgment") they use that as an excuse to not believe.

Happily,
Incest is covered under the commandment covering Adultery because of the Catholic Church’s New Covenant interpretation of the commandment. This was not the case in the Old Testament, and since Adventists reject the New Covenant as we understand it, this is not the case for them. Not to mention they are not Catholic and do not hold to our interpretations of the Commandments, otherwise they would go to Church on Sunday.

I am surprised you don’t know that!

 

[SDA2RC]

SDA’s have never taught that.

Adventists dont teach that the Law that the apostles said was done away with was the Ceremonial law?

 

[djconklin]

I guess what I meant is if you believe that Christ came to die for your sins so that you can attain forgiveness such as the NT teaches. Then why do you not believe that Sunday worship is correct and instead worship on the day given to the Isrealites. And also worry about unclean meats.

First thing to clear up is the fact that the Sabbath as meant for all mankind. not just the Jews. Searh the web for William Mead Jones and you’ll find that he did a study that shows that in over 100 languages (created at the Tower of Babel–long before there ever was a Jew) in which the seventh day of the week is known as “sabbath.”

Thank you for anwering my questions by the way. It’s funny that I’m arguing with people of my own faith and having good informative conversation with an SDA. I have lots of SDA friends and I think this is why we get along. I don’t condemn, I just am very curious as to how they can mix their beliefs between to OT and the NT. I’ve been accused of “sleeping with the enemy” on some of the SDA related threads.

That’s because you are a biblical Christian.

It has been said that the OT is the NT concealed, the NT is the OT revealed. They are actually one and the same.* We use the whole Bible vs. a truncated “version.”

*Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant [the New Covenant, or Testament] that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law [the law of love on which all (not just 9) of the 10C’s are based] in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

 

[djconklin]

Adventists dont teach that the Law that the apostles said was done away with was the Ceremonial law?

Read your post again:

“The Apostles never taught that the LAW was only the ceremonial parts of the Mosaic Law… that is what the Adventists teach.” The SDA’s have never taught that the “LAW was only the ceremonial parts of the Mosaic Law.”

Perhaps you typed faster than you were thinking.

 

[djconklin]

Incest is covered under the commandment covering Adultery because of the Catholic Church’s New Covenant interpretation of the commandment. This was not the case in the Old Testament,

It is part of the Mosaic law (in the OT) that condemns incest. That is why SDA’s condemn it as well.

 

[happilycatholic]

SDA’s never do that–you have been misled.

Well, see that’s where the confusion sets in. “God’s Law” is a term that catholics don’t use because we would be confused as to which law you’re talking about. You as an SDA on the other hand are referring to the Commandments.

Catholics contend the whole of the Biblical law is God’s law and that the Sabbath was given to the Isrealites and all the ceremonial laws that go with it. If you were to say you don’t combine the two, you still worship on Saturday and have doctrines regarding clean and unclean meats?

That is where my question lies. You put the two together by worshipping on Saturday. Whether you say you do or not. Saturday worship is a Mosaic doctrine, not a NT one. To observe the Sabbath as a day of rest is one thing, but to keep it Holy by worshipping on that day is a Mosaic doctrine.

Can you tell me how to separate those two? Because that takes the Blood of Christ and the catholic Church to do that and you are definitely not in agreement with that.

So how do you reconcile?

 

[djconklin]

we are no longer under that law…

“under law” in the Bible means to be under the condemnation of the law. Now since all of the 10c’s are based on the moral principle of love and that continues in the NT it therefore follows that we are to follow the moral law as a guide/rule/law in our daily lives.

 

[happilycatholic]

Happily,
Incest is covered under the commandment covering Adultery because of the Catholic Church’s New Covenant interpretation of the commandment. This was not the case in the Old Testament, and since Adventists reject the New Covenant as we understand it, this is not the case for them. Not to mention they are not Catholic and do not hold to our interpretations of the Commandments, otherwise they would go to Church on Sunday.

I am surprised you don’t know that!

I do know the doctrine you’re talking about that is why I asked. My question was directed at your beliefs with regard to your comment, not the SDA posters.

Okay, so YOU do believe it to be a sin covered under the 7th commandment?

I’m just clarifying.

 

[djconklin]

You put the two together by worshipping on Saturday.

Since the Sabbath is the 4th commandment in the 10C’s there is no “two” to put together.

 

[djconklin]

Saturday worship is a Mosaic doctrine, not a NT one.

The Sabbath was instituted at Creation–it isn’t Mosiac.

There’d be less confusion if we referred to the 10C’s as “God’s Law” (capiltal ‘L’) and the ceremonial, etc. laws as “Mosaic law” (small ‘l’) recognizing that Moses was told what to write, but is was he who wrote them, while God wrote the 10C’s on stone, with His own finger and the tablets were placed inside the Ark under the Mercy seat while the Mosaic law was rolled up and placed outside.

 

[happilycatholic]

First thing to clear up is the fact that the Sabbath as meant for all mankind. not just the Jews. Searh the web for William Mead Jones and you’ll find that he did a study that shows that in over 100 languages (created at the Tower of Babel–long before there ever was a Jew) in which the seventh day of the week is known as “sabbath.”

Yes, we are in total agreement on that issue. Saturday is most certainly the Sabbath.

But it is not the day of worship dedicated to our Lord and Savior as He had not come in fulfillment of the Scripture that contained those Commandments. That was to come.

That is why catholics and all Christians should worship on Sunday. Saturday will remain the Sabbath, but Sunday is the Day of The Lord.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

As for being scared to go through Genesis 1 & 2 with Patrick – why be scared of studying the Bible? Patrick is trying to make the point that there were 6 days of Creation week, and then a mysterious 7th period of time' which was NOT a literal day, because the words evening and morning’ are missing. He clearly stated this in an early dialogue with Brandon, I think. So to wade patiently through weeks of dialogue to get to a point that doesn’t make sense if you read Genesis 2:1,2 (`Thus the heavens and the earth were COMPLETED in all their vast array. By the seventh day God had FINISHED the work he HAD BEEN DOING; so on the seventh day he RESTED from all his work.’’).
If God had been patiently creating this earth for 6 days, and He COMPLETED/FINISHED/RESTED on the 7th day, what else could it mean but a literal day, Saturday, the seventh day of Creation Week? You really would have to be stretching things to come to any other conclusion!
This you don’t like, because it means that ALL MANKIND were to REMEMBER this day as memorial to God our Creator, and not just the Jews 2000 years later.

Hi Friedrich!! I’m glad to see that you have not gone away, but have been following along!! I hope all is well with you and yours!!!

I was asked by someone, Protetant101 I think, what it meant to me that there was no evening and morning designation for the 7th day of creation. I explained what that meant to me before we actually “waded through” the verse by verse, day by day, dialog of the creation story approach that I initially suggested. Once again I leaped past my intended desire for how to approach this dialog and went to my final conclusion…and once again, by doing this we have missed communication. So without taking the time necessary to actually really study the scriptures, please bear with me as I try to summarize the point I desired to make and hopefully clear up that "mysterious 7th period of time.

So I think the best approach I can take to quickly summarize my thoughts, will be to look at the Creation story as a literal 7, 24 hour day period. I think this will reduce the miscommunication between me and the others who can only look at this story as a literal 24 hour 7 day period. What the scriptures reveal for us will not be lost by looking at a 24 hour day, or a 24 thousand year day…so let’s go literal.

However, you will have to answer those who will raise the questions that arise in looking at each day as a 24 hour period of time. For instance:

1. How is there light and darkness, evening and morning for 3 days before the sun and stars are created on the 4th day?
2. How do you reconcile the creation story of Genesis chapter 1 with the creation story of Genesis chapter 2, where God places Adam in the Garden before the animals were created, and then creates the animals, and then after seeing that none of the animals were suitable companions, God creates woman?
3. How long were Adam and Eve in the garden before the fall took place in Chapter 3? Was it before or after the creation of the 7th day?
4. Why is there no mention of the sabbath rest in Chapter 2?
5. Is sabbath observance at creation the covenant between God and man, or is it a sign of another covenant? Is sabbath observance even commanded to manking by God before the fall of mankind?
6. Was keeping saturday holy in the unfallen world God’s plan for mankind, or was marriage and family and communion with God the original plan?

I defer the answering of these questions to you (although I will be more than happy to dialog with you and everyone else about these questions )

Ok…God has created the world in 6 literal 24 hour periods. In those 6 literal 24 hour days God created three things:

1. Time as we know it. And he made the sun, moon, and stars (Day 4) to be the rulers over the realm of day and night (Day 1).
2. Space as we know it. And he made the birds and fish (day 5) to be the rulers over the realm of the sky and the sea (Day 2)
3. Life as we know it. And he made man and animals (day 6) to be the rulers over the realm of the land and vegetation (day 3).

And then by the 7th day all of God’s work was finished and He rested from all His work. And he blessed the 7th day and made it holy because on that day He rested from all the work He had done! The sabbath was the overarching sign of God’s creative work and His original covenant with mankind…which was to obey God by not eating from the one tree, and enjoying eternal life marrying, creating children, joyfully tending the Garden, and constantly being in the actual presence of God as His children.

(continued to next post)

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

(continued from previous post)

Now, let’s stay with the the 7 day weekly cycle in the world before the entrance of sin and the fall of mankind.

What is the main point in creating this world and mankind? Is it for man to work 6 days and then rest on the 7th and worship God? Or could the main point of creating this world and mankind be for men and women to follow in the image of their creator, their Father, to marry as pointed out in Chapter 2, and create an ever growing family of families with God as their Father and in their presence daily in all that they do. God walking with mankind in their work and worship in constant face to face communion with God.

My “mysterious 7th time period” is merely each and every 24 hour time period in the presence of, and full communion with, God the Father. An ever growing family who shares in the love, peace, life, and glory of God, with God and each other…constant joyful work and worship always with God their Father…The Kingdom of God which Jesus restored by His life, death, and resurrection.

Mankind was created to be with God face to face for all eternity. But then we gave that up by choosing to disobey God.

And nowhere in the scriptures for the next 10 plus generations of mankid do we find any instruction from God to keep holy the 7th day. Not in the covenants made with either Noah or Abraham. Not until the covenant made with Moses when God delievered them from slavery in Egypt, and then the sign of that covenant of deliverance was the Passover meal. The sabbath obervance was given to Moses and the Hebrews, as part of the law, after that deliverance from Egypt as a means to take time out of the busy work week and to rest from their labors, and to reflect upon God’s Rest at Creation…so as to understand what God’s initial plan for mankind was, and how he would lead His people throughout Salvation history to the restoration of that His initial intention of life for His children.

These lessons are not lost in a literal interpretation of the creation story, nor in a non-literal interpretation of the creation story.

Does that help at all to clear up my point about that “mysterious 7th time period”? Or have I muddied the waters even more?

God bless all!!!