H
happilycatholic
Guest
This is so true! I did not mean to imply that God’s Will is limited by the Commandments, only that in the ways you described above, we are taught how to live according to His Will.
Thanks.
- Status
Thanks.
H
happilycatholic
Guest
Marsha,
All I’ve ever said is exactly what the Church says. All Christians are still bound by the Commandments, all of them. The Pope has said it, the catechism says it, several other sources have said it.
I further said that the Church cannot create sin. I never said they couldn’t create doctrine. If the Church decides that to do or not do something is a sin, I’ll bet you they’ve used the Deposit of Faith to determine it as such.
Notice I said, “The Deposit of Faith”. I know quite well that the Church can create doctrine. I only said that it uses the Scripture to do so, okay I neglected to add the entire Deposit of Faith. But there you go. You are right!
So where does that leave us. The Church has bound us to the Third Commandment on pain of Mortal sin. I’m not the one with the problem regarding the Church’s interpretation of the Third Commandment, you are. I’m not the one who goes against the Church’s position on the Commandments being binding on Christians, you are.
You and Brandon contiually tell me Christians are not bound by the Commandments, yet you tell me the Church has the authority to bind and loose. Which position are you taking here?
What more do you want than your own explaination above?
H
happilycatholic
Guest
Thought you left. You never did tell me what Commandment you’d be breaking if you don’t go to mass on Sunday…Whew… I have been trying to talk in really small words… I am glad to see you finally understood something…
H
happilycatholic
Guest
I’ll tell you what, you guys live your life the way you want and I’ll do the same.
We were obviously catechized differently.
No one is going to tell me I’m not bound to all Ten Commandments when my Church tells me otherwise in many, many different ways.
No one is going to convince me that not going to mass is a sin against my Church because the Church made it some kind of rule when I know it’s a sin against God because God tells us to Keep Holy the Lord’s Day.
So you do whatever your heart tells you to.
Peace Be With You
We were obviously catechized differently.
No one is going to tell me I’m not bound to all Ten Commandments when my Church tells me otherwise in many, many different ways.
No one is going to convince me that not going to mass is a sin against my Church because the Church made it some kind of rule when I know it’s a sin against God because God tells us to Keep Holy the Lord’s Day.
So you do whatever your heart tells you to.
Peace Be With You
M
Marsha_Adams
Guest
Happily:
The Catechism of the Catholic Church says that the 10 Commandments are Part of the Old Law.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church says that we are under the New Law.
I have quoted these passages to you previously. If we are under the new law and the 10 commandments are the old law, then we can no longer be under the 10 commandments because the Catechism says that we are under the New Law not the Old Law.
The Church has not bound us to the 3rd commandment or to any of the other 10 commandments. Some of the rules which the Church (beginning with the first Apostles) has bound us to are similar to the original 10. Some of them may even be rooted in the original 10, but we are not bound by the 10 or by any of the other 613 laws of Judaism, because that is the Old Law and we are under the New Law.
H
happilycatholic
Guest
Well whatta ya know, I found this on your favorite website Marsha. beginningcatholic.com
Seems like you conveniently left a few things out of it when you posted it. If you’ll notice the Third Commandment is right there!
Again, the Ten Commandments are a description of the basic freedom from sin that is necessary to live as a Christian.
They are a minimum level of living, below which we must not go.
The Ten Commandments and Catholicism have been bound together since the time of Christ. In fact, Jesus refers to the Ten Commandments and assures their validity in his dialog with the rich young man in Matthew’s Gospel (Mt 19:16-21). The Catechism refers to this in item #2052.
It’s important to note that each Commandment is simply a summary of a whole category of actions. Don’t be legalistic, searching for a way around them because their wording doesn’t fit you perfectly!
The Commandments express man’s fundamental duties to God and neighbor. As such, they represent grave obligations. To violate them knowingly & willingly in a significant way is to commit mortal sin. (See Catechism, #2702-3)
The Catechism of the Catholic Church has a detailed description of the Catholic Ten Commandments. Read it!
Here are the Catholic Ten Commandments:
Seems like you conveniently left a few things out of it when you posted it. If you’ll notice the Third Commandment is right there!
Again, the Ten Commandments are a description of the basic freedom from sin that is necessary to live as a Christian.
They are a minimum level of living, below which we must not go.
The Ten Commandments and Catholicism have been bound together since the time of Christ. In fact, Jesus refers to the Ten Commandments and assures their validity in his dialog with the rich young man in Matthew’s Gospel (Mt 19:16-21). The Catechism refers to this in item #2052.
It’s important to note that each Commandment is simply a summary of a whole category of actions. Don’t be legalistic, searching for a way around them because their wording doesn’t fit you perfectly!
- For example, “bearing false witness against your neighbor” covers any kind of falsehood: perjury, lying, slander, detraction, rash judgment, etc.
The Commandments express man’s fundamental duties to God and neighbor. As such, they represent grave obligations. To violate them knowingly & willingly in a significant way is to commit mortal sin. (See Catechism, #2702-3)
The Catechism of the Catholic Church has a detailed description of the Catholic Ten Commandments. Read it!
Here are the Catholic Ten Commandments:
- I am the LORD your God. You shall worship the Lord your God and Him only shall you serve.
- You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
- Remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.
- Honor your father and your mother.
- You shall not kill.
- You shall not commit adultery.
- You shall not steal.
- You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
- You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife.
- You shall not covet your neighbor’s goods.
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happilycatholic
Guest
From the catechism:
****The Third Commandment, “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy”
**
****The Third Commandment, “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy”
**
- Deliberate failure of the Sunday obligation**—The Christian Sunday (the Lord’s Day) celebrates the new life of the world born in Christ’s Resurrection. All humans have a duty, to praise God and give him thanks. Thus all Christians are bound to participate in the Mass, and must partake of the Eucharist at least on holy days of obligation. Deliberate failure to do this constitutes a grave sin (CCC 2181).
M
Marsha_Adams
Guest
Happily:
Like Brandon, I am tired of arguing this issue with you.
Someday, a Seventh Day Adventist is going to say to you that you are violating God’s Law by not keeping the 10 commandments. You are going to say “Oh, yes, I do. I go to Mass every Sunday.” That SDA will point out using your own copy of the Bible that you do not keep the Seventh Day Sabbath holy. That SDA is going to say that Sunday is not Saturday. He is going to point out that you are not obeying God’s Word.
Your only defense is going to be that your Church told you that Sunday was the day to worship. And then that SDA is going to eat you alive (theologically speaking).
Brandon and I will point out that we are under the New Law contained in the New Covenant. The SDA will have no leg to stand on and leave.
Marsha
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happilycatholic
Guest
Marsha,
I have no problem telling ANYONE I obey my Church commands.
Maybe if you and Brandon would spend more time thinking about what IS catholic than what’s NOT SDA you wouldn’t have to worry about that. It seems to me you see everything, including the defense of your Church, from the SDA point of view.
All I can say to you is if you have a problem obeying Church precept, maybe you shouldn’t be catholic at all.
M
Marsha_Adams
Guest
What makes you think I have a problem following anything that the Church requires?
M
Marsha_Adams
Guest
Happily:
Let’s attack this from another angle.
Suppose for a moment that I was still a Seventh Day Adventist and you wanted to lead me into the Church. But I believe that the Sabbath Commandment is the premier commandment of the 10. I see it as the Seal of God. I believe that I am bound to obey the 10 Commandments, and the Sabbath commandment clearly states that I am to Remember the Sabbath Day and keep it holy. It clearly requires that I keep the Seventh Day Sabbath. Further, I believe that the Bible has authority over the Church, so that the Church has no right to change it in any way or to void any of its laws…
What would you tell me, in our conversations about the Sabbath Commandment?
Marsha
Let’s attack this from another angle.
Suppose for a moment that I was still a Seventh Day Adventist and you wanted to lead me into the Church. But I believe that the Sabbath Commandment is the premier commandment of the 10. I see it as the Seal of God. I believe that I am bound to obey the 10 Commandments, and the Sabbath commandment clearly states that I am to Remember the Sabbath Day and keep it holy. It clearly requires that I keep the Seventh Day Sabbath. Further, I believe that the Bible has authority over the Church, so that the Church has no right to change it in any way or to void any of its laws…
What would you tell me, in our conversations about the Sabbath Commandment?
Marsha
M
Marsha_Adams
Guest
Happily:
Did you know that Seventh Day Adventists convert tens of thousands of Catholics to their religion every year? Did you know that they work harder to convert Catholics than they do anybody else? Did you know that theirs is one of the fastest growing religions in the world?
On the other hand, I only know of perhaps a dozen Catholics like Brandon and AdventistNoMore and MarysRoses who left Adventism to become Catholics?
Why do you suppose SDAs are so successful in converting all these thousands of Catholics while Catholics only manage to convert a few dozen?
It is because most Catholics do not understand that the Church has authority over the Bible. Then SDAs show these Catholics from the Bible that they should be doing this or doing that, when the Church says not they don’t have to. The SDAs then point out that because the Church has attempted to change the Law of God it is the Anti-Christ and that Sunday-keeping is the Mark of the Beast seen in Revelation. These are Catholics like yourself who believe that the 10 commandments are still binding and when faced with the fact that we do not obey these commandments they say “well, the Church” changed it. The SDAs say ever so gently, but no one has the authority to change God’s Law, not even God Himself, because His Law is a reflection of His Own Character which never changes. Boom, there go even more Catholics into the SDA denomination.
If those poor Catholics understood that the Old Law which includes the 10 commandments was the Old Covenant, and that we who are under the New Covenant are also under the New Law, they would say to the SDA, “Of course we don’t keep the 10 commandments, we are under the New Covenant and keep the New Law.” Then the SDAs would have nothing to say. But no, these Catholics just keep pouring into the SDA denomination.
Marsha
R
Realcatholicgk
Guest
**
Happily,
Maybe I am missing something. Marsha and Brandon have both been reasonable and correct in their postings. I am a Cradle Catholic. I understand what they are attempting to explain to you. Why are you having a problem understand them? They must defend from what they know. They can only use the vocabulary that they know. I understood their positions very well, why don’t you? What is your problem?
Do you actually realize what you said?
**
**Happily, all I can say to that is: How dare you? :tsktsk: You have the nerve to call yourself a Catholic?
I spit on your brand of Catholicism!
Now get your butt to confession before you attempt to take communion. That statement was absolutly sin against Charity!
Shame on you!:takethat:
Shame on your religious instructors! :nunchuk:
Maybe YOU shouldn’t be a catholic at all.
happily, that anger with you was rightist indignation. It was pure and completely justified because at its root is my concern for your spiritual condition. My anger targeted just your sinful behavior and obvious true injustice to Marsha and Barndon . I hope it woke you up.:console: My anger stemmed from my love for you, my brother. I will have nothing to do with hatred or ill will.
God Bless you. **
M
myroneffing
Guest
I’ve followed your discussions, and what is missing it seems to me is the understanding that the Mosaic Law is a covenant. God offered it to the children of Abraham in the desert, and they accepted it. So they are required to keep it. Of course, in fact they rejected it many times.
I, a Christian from the pagans, who was never in the desert, never agreed to that covenant, and am not required to keep it! For me, there is only one law: Jesus Christ, which includes his body, the Church. So it is silly if an Adventist tells me I have to obey a law that didn’t apply to me (nor to him, probably)! He is wanting to make a slave of me, according to St Paul. If the Jews couldn’t keep the covenant, neither can Adventists. And your discussions show how futile is the attempt!
I, a Christian from the pagans, who was never in the desert, never agreed to that covenant, and am not required to keep it! For me, there is only one law: Jesus Christ, which includes his body, the Church. So it is silly if an Adventist tells me I have to obey a law that didn’t apply to me (nor to him, probably)! He is wanting to make a slave of me, according to St Paul. If the Jews couldn’t keep the covenant, neither can Adventists. And your discussions show how futile is the attempt!
R
Realcatholicgk
Guest
**
Excellent point!
However, as Catholics, in our baptism, we accept membership in Jesus’ church. The First Covenant that God made with mankind. Aren’t pagan’s decendants of Noah? Remember “flood”? Anyway, of the 10 commandments listed in Exodus 20:1-17, only 9 of them were restated in the New Testament. (Six in Matt. 19:18, murder, adultery, stealing, false witness, honor parents, and worshiping God; Rom. 13:9, coveting. Worshiping God properly covers the first three commandments) The one that was not reaffirmed was the one about the Sabbath. Instead, Jesus said that He is the Lord of the Sabbath (Matt. 12:8).In creation, God rested on the seventh day. But, since God is all powerful, He doesn’t get tired. He doesn’t need to take a break and rest. So, why did does it say that He rested? The reason is simple: Mark 2:27 says, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.” In other words, God established the Sabbath as a rest for His people, not because He needed a break, but because we are mortal and need a time of rest, tofocus on God. In this way, our spirits and bodies are both renewed.
The OT system of Law required keeping the Sabbath as part of the overall moral, legal, and sacrificial system by which the Jewish people satisfied God’s requirements for their behavior, government, and forgiveness of sins. The Sabbath was part of the Law in that sense. In order to “remain” in favor with God, you had to also keep the Sabbath. If it was not kept, then the person was in sin and would often be punished (Ezek. 18:4; Rom. 6:23; Deut. 13:1-9; Num. 35:31; Lev. 20:2, etc.).
But with Jesus’ atonement, we no longer are required to keep the Law as a means for our justification. The requirements of the Law were fulfilled in Christ. We now have rest from the Law. We now have “Sabbath”, continually.
**
M
myroneffing
Guest
If you are of Jewish extraction, I agree with you.**
Excellent point!
In creation, God rested on the seventh day. But, since God is all powerful, He doesn’t get tired. He doesn’t need to take a break and rest. So, why did does it say that He rested? The reason is simple: Mark 2:27 says, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.” In other words, God established the Sabbath as a rest for His people, not because He needed a break, but because we are mortal and need a time of rest, tofocus on God. In this way, our spirits and bodies are both renewed.
The OT system of Law required keeping the Sabbath as part of the overall moral, legal, and sacrificial system by which the Jewish people satisfied God’s requirements for their behavior, government, and forgiveness of sins. The Sabbath was part of the Law in that sense. In order to “remain” in favor with God, you had to also keep the Sabbath. If it was not kept, then the person was in sin and would often be punished (Ezek. 18:4; Rom. 6:23; Deut. 13:1-9; Num. 35:31; Lev. 20:2, etc.).
But with Jesus’ atonement, we no longer are required to keep the Law as a means for our justification. The requirements of the Law were fulfilled in Christ. We now have rest from the Law. We now have “Sabbath”, continually.
If you are a gentile, then you were never REQUIRED to keep the Mosaic Law.
H
happilycatholic
Guest
You are right on one hand, but you are the last one who should be telling me about charity.Happily,
Maybe I am missing something. Marsha and Brandon have both been reasonable and correct in their postings. I am a Cradle Catholic. I understand what they are attempting to explain to you. Why are you having a problem understand them? They must defend from what they know. They can only use the vocabulary that they know. I understood their positions very well, why don’t you? What is your problem?
**Do you actually realize what you said?
Happily, all I can say to that is: How dare you? :tsktsk: You have the nerve to call yourself a Catholic?
**I spit on your brand of Catholicism!
**Now get your butt to confession before you attempt to take communion. That statement was absolutly sin against Charity! **
Shame on you!:takethat:
**Shame on your religious instructors! :nunchuk: **
Maybe YOU shouldn’t be a catholic at all.
happily, that anger with you was rightist indignation. It was pure and completely justified because at its root is my concern for your spiritual condition. My anger targeted just your sinful behavior and obvious true injustice to Marsha and Barndon . I hope it woke you up.:console: My anger stemmed from my love for you, my brother. I will have nothing to do with hatred or ill will.
**God Bless you. **
You have called so many people on here heretics it’s redicuous for you to tell me about charity my friend.
They are trying to explain the commandments to me from an Adventist’s point of view. I don’t have a problem with a “point of view” but when I’m told that I should not believe that I am held to the commandments when I can simply read my catechism that tells me I am, well I have a problem with that.
Your Church tells you in every thing I could find to post here that you ARE bound by the commandments. If you don’t believe you are, then maybe you should do a little studying on your own.
I’m sorry, did I try to push them away from the Church or was it them trying to pull me away from a doctrine that my Church clearly wants me to believe?
I never stated that the commandments were the center of our faith as are the Gospels now. But what I do read is that they are a minimum of moral standard we are to live by, including it’s instruction to keep Holy The Lord’s Day.
If you read their posts you will figure out that all they are worried about is how SDAs will see their faith. They say I should be worried about SDAs saying I do what the Church tells me to do, but in this intire thread they’ve been trying to convince me that the Church doesn’t take the entire Deposit of Faith from the Bible and my Church has the power to bind and loose and the Bible doesn’t have authority over the Church.
Well my friend, I believe that. I believe that the Church has clearly explained to us in the catechism that it has interpreted the Fourth Commandment (third, whatever) to mean that we are to keep Holy The Lord’s Day because “we are under the New Law”. Not only that, but the catechism clearly states that all Christians are bound to the all the Commandments.
Just because Marsha and Brandon can’t reconcile that with the fact that they were taught to believe that if you don’t keep the Sabbath, then you set asunder the rest, I can’t help that.
I believe what the Church teaches, not what I think SDAs will accept.
Ask yourself something. If we are not bound to keep God’s Commandments, why do we use them in our confession discernment?
H
happilycatholic
Guest
I would tell you that the Old Law was fulfilled in the coming of Christ. I would tell you that the Sabbath was a foreshadow. I would tell you that Saturday was a day given to God, the Creator and Sunday is a day given to God, the Savior.
I would tell you that we are still bound to the Third Commandment because what we once gave to God, we still do. Same God, same Commandment, different day. You only have a problem with that because you are formerly SDA. You cannot wrap your mind around the Third Commandment being anything other than the “Saturday Sabbath Worship Day”. I don’t have that issue with it. It’s that simple.
You’ve said we are only bound to the moral precept of that Commandment. I completely understand that. We are only bound to the moral precept of any Commandment. What you are doing is trying to pick it apart so it will make sense to you when it is somewhat of a mystery.
For me, I do not need to reconcile the Sabbath Commandment with the Lord’s Day in my mind because my catholic mind doesn’t even contemplate the Sabbath.
I apologize for insulting you and Brandon. But as you can see, I am very frustrated as well. I’m sure you are a very devoted catholic as I’m sure Brandon is. But you seem to have a problem with the Third Commandment and that makes you dump them all.
SDAs teach that the catholic Church set asunder the Commandments and that because we don’t keep the Fourth Commandment and we changed one and even changed the order they were in, that we set asunder God’s Law.
I’m simply saying we did not. You can only stand on one side or the other.
The catechism, Deis Domini, and everything else I can get my hands on says we as catholics are bound by the Commandments and we do keep the Third Commandment.
The reason for my position with you and Brandon is that it is only you and he that say we don’t.
If you don’t want to “argue” then don’t. I’ve been willing to lay this down several times. I’m okay with it. I know what the catechism says. I know what Pope J.P. II says and I know what I learned in RCIA.
Before you came back at me like you did (again) I laid it down and agreed to disagree.
H
happilycatholic
Guest
By the way, I’m a sister. I have pink clouds and purple writing in my sig. I’m a girl. 41 year old mother of a 24 year old soldier. I’m not easily swayed in my beliefs. Mostly because it took me 38 years to get here. I’ve had a long and hard faith journey. I know what my faith doctrine is. I have no problem obeying what my Church tells me to do. I would lay down my life for Her.
So many catholics have set the Commandments aside as if they are to be something of a “sidenote”. We had this conversation in RCIA. So many have a hard time wrapping their minds around the mystery of the Lord’s Day. I don’t.
If I can be shown where it states in the catechism or an Encyclical Letter that we are not bound to ANY one of the Commandments let alone all of them, I will be happy to just jump right on board.
The catechism plainly differenciates between the Sabbath Day and the Lord’s Day, but does not negate the Lord’s Day attachement to the Third Commandment and in fact, it makes a distict connection.
If we were not bound by the Commandments, we would not be using them for discernment of sin before confession.
I’m waiting.
So many catholics have set the Commandments aside as if they are to be something of a “sidenote”. We had this conversation in RCIA. So many have a hard time wrapping their minds around the mystery of the Lord’s Day. I don’t.
If I can be shown where it states in the catechism or an Encyclical Letter that we are not bound to ANY one of the Commandments let alone all of them, I will be happy to just jump right on board.
The catechism plainly differenciates between the Sabbath Day and the Lord’s Day, but does not negate the Lord’s Day attachement to the Third Commandment and in fact, it makes a distict connection.
If we were not bound by the Commandments, we would not be using them for discernment of sin before confession.
I’m waiting.
M
Marsha_Adams
Guest
That is incorrect. The SDAs already see the Church as the Whore of Babylon and the Pope as the anti-Christ. Our point is that using your erroneous understanding that we are still bound to obey the 10 commandments, the SDAs using the Bible will be able to prove the Church wrong. Because we are not bound by the commandments, the SDAs cannot prove Church wrong.
Tens of thousands of Catholics become SDAs every year. The reason that this is possible is because they believe as you do.
We do not care what the SDAs think of the Church. We do care about the souls that SDAs lay waste to because of this wrong belief.
Marsha
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