why is sunday instead of saturday the sabboth?

[SDA2RC]

They are trying to explain the commandments to me from an Adventist’s point of view.

Happily,
First, I was not very charitable either in some posts… and I apologize. Second… WE WERE NOT trying to explain the Commandments from an Adventists point of view. We were trying to explain the Commandments from a Catholic point of view that would help you in dealing with Adventists. This began with me trying to help you understand how Catholics view the Law of the Bible since this is the only Law they recognize… and we are talking to Adventists. Your only response so far has been that you keep the Law by not actually keeping it as the Bible says you should. I understand what your saying… but there is more to it… and like Marsha said, if you ever engage a serious Adventist in a discussion face to face, you will walk away having this position torn to shreds by the Adventists, from scripture, with your own Bible. You wont help them, and you will contribute to the idea that Catholics don’t know their Bibles. That may be OK with you… it apparently is… so… we don’t need to continue the discussion, but I hope you realize the reality of what we are saying.

Although you have repeatedly said that what I am teaching is Adventists doctrine, in all actuality, your positions have been closer to Adventism than mine have. I have spent the last several years specifically defending Catholicism to Adventists, as has Marsha. My website, in which I discuss these issues that we are trying to discuss with you, has been reviewed by places such as “Catholic Culture” (very conservative group) and received an “Excellent” in Fidelity to the teachings of the Church.

I think that if you would take what we have to say (and we have not even got really past the first point of a several point discussion) then even if you dont currently understand it, you would find that, as people have been telling you… it is very much Catholic…

I don’t have a problem with a “point of view” but when I’m told that I should not believe that I am held to the commandments when I can simply read my catechism that tells me I am, well I have a problem with that.

And yet everyone on here has repeatedly told you that we are not bound by the Mosaic law (which includes the 10 Commandments)… cradle Catholics, converts, etc. This is what concerns Marsha and me… and probably several others. Your understanding of this issue is very simple and not very encompassing of the issues. Adventists hold on to the ten commandments and shape the rest of their theology around their understanding of them, and refuse to see the the alternative understandings… because, like you, they say… I can read what it says… and your telling me something different.

It’s not that they are wrong in what they are reading… its that they stop reading there and dont understand those beliefs that would clarify and supplement what they are reading, and help them see how what they are reading could and should be taken in a different way. In my opinion, you are doing that exact same thing with regards to this discussion. Like Marsha, I have seen so many Catholics convert to Adventism because they dont have a clear understanding of Catholic teaching on the Law… and I, like Marsha, worry that if you are ever in a face to face, serious Bible study with an Adventists… you could have a crisis of faith.

but in this intire thread they’ve been trying to convince me that the Church doesn’t take the entire Deposit of Faith from the Bible and my Church has the power to bind and loose and the Bible doesn’t have authority over the Church.

The Church does not take the entire deposit of faith from the Bible… We have Tradition and the Magesterium that are not bound to scripture. They are authoritative on their own.

The Bible does not have authority over the Church… The Church has authority over the Bible in that it is a Catholic Book that the Church interprets based on the Tradition and teaching magesterium.

 

[happilycatholic]

That is incorrect. The SDAs already see the Church as the Whore of Babylon and the Pope as the anti-Christ. Our point is that using your erroneous understanding that we are still bound to obey the 10 commandments, the SDAs using the Bible will be able to prove the Church wrong. Because we are not bound by the commandments, the SDAs cannot prove Church wrong.

Tens of thousands of Catholics become SDAs every year. The reason that this is possible is because they believe as you do.

We do not care what the SDAs think of the Church. We do care about the souls that SDAs lay waste to because of this wrong belief.

Marsha

I know and I do too. I have some SDA friends and I’m very afraid for them right now.

But how can you say this when the Church clearly teaches otherwise? How can you call my understanding erroneous when it’s been shown to you in the catechism and the Vatican itself has the Ten Commandments on their website and a catechetical explaination of them which includes keeping Holy The Lord’s Day.

What you’re telling me is not going to make me go be an SDA. It’s going to make me not go to confession. If we are not bound to the Commandments, then I’m never going to another confession. Why do you think very few go now? Because they have the same “erroneous” understanding you do.

Why go to confession? We’re not bound to the Commandments and they are directly linked to our confession. If we have absolution in Christ, where’s the need for confession?

That’s what you are creating. The false belief that catholics do not keep the Commandments. When we absolutely do and if we don’t in some instances we can’t even receive communion.

 

[happilycatholic]

SDA2RC:
Then tell me, in all your wisdom, what you will say when an SDA askes you why you use the Commandments for discernment of sin, but you are not bound to them. And how you can, by the authority of your so-called magesterium, not be bound by God’s Law.

Confession is a HUGE roadblock to would-be protestant converts. Are you going to just lower the bar or teach them to jump higher?

 

[SDA2RC]

But how can you say this when the Church clearly teaches otherwise? How can you call my understanding erroneous when it’s been shown to you in the catechism and the Vatican itself has the Ten Commandments on their website and a catechetical explaination of them which includes keeping Holy The Lord’s Day.

The Church DOES Not teach otherwise… You are only looking at a small portion of the big picture. If you allow us to help you see the big picture, then you would see how what the Church says in the Catechism is right… and what we say is also right.

You are right, it APPEARS to be a contradiction… but its not.

Protestant and DJ, are actually quite passive in their Defense of Adventism and/or their attempt to talk to us about doctrines. If you are in a face to face discussion with one of your friends, and they are well catechised in Adventism, then you will really struggle proving your doctrine from scripture…

RCIA does not prepare us very well for Adventism… its not an apologetics course. and often the teachers have had very little experience in direct dialogue with other religions themselves. They are wonderful, but RCIA is a VERY VERY surface overview of the Catholic faith.

What I want you to realize is that you dont need to be afraid of your Adventists friends… and Marsha and I, and Adventistnomore, Real Catholic, Patrick, etc… will always be here to help you… but you have to give us the benefit of the doubt that we are Catholic (actually we are all very coservative catholic) and adhere strictly to church teaching…

 

[happilycatholic]

By the way, when did this turn into an evangelism test instead of a defense of catholic doctrine?

I’ve been unaware that my defense of my position on the Commandments was going to be used as an evagelistic tool for converting Adventists.

I think we can all agree that parts of our faith are not well suited for evangelism and must be somewhat “softly applied”.

But then again, I’m too simple minded to convert anyone. All I would do is turn them away with my child-like understanding of my faith.

 

[happilycatholic]

The Church DOES Not teach otherwise… You are only looking at a small portion of the big picture. If you allow us to help you see the big picture, then you would see how what the Church says in the Catechism is right… and what we say is also right.

You are right, it APPEARS to be a contradiction… but its not.

Protestant and DJ, are actually quite passive in their Defense of Adventism and/or their attempt to talk to us about doctrines. If you are in a face to face discussion with one of your friends, and they are well catechised in Adventism, then you will really struggle proving your doctrine from scripture…

RCIA does not prepare us very well for Adventism… its not an apologetics course. and often the teachers have had very little experience in direct dialogue with other religions themselves. They are wonderful, but RCIA is a VERY VERY surface overview of the Catholic faith.

What I want you to realize is that you dont need to be afraid of your Adventists friends… and Marsha and I, and Adventistnomore, Real Catholic, Patrick, etc… will always be here to help you… but you have to give us the benefit of the doubt that we are Catholic (actually we are all very coservative catholic) and adhere strictly to church teaching…

Okay, I’ll let you have your status here. Please enlighten me by answering my post regarding confession.

Believe me, I’ve been in discussions with SDAs and their Bibles. I’m not sure why you think me so ignorant. I lived in an Adventist family for 10 years. I know what and how they believe. It’s actually very simplistic.

What I’m encountering here is so much like the conversations I’ve had with my own friends it’s not even funny.

So please, answer my post about confession and if you are willing, we’ll go from there.

 

[happilycatholic]

The Church DOES Not teach otherwise… You are only looking at a small portion of the big picture. If you allow us to help you see the big picture, then you would see how what the Church says in the Catechism is right… and what we say is also right.

You are right, it APPEARS to be a contradiction… but its not.

Protestant and DJ, are actually quite passive in their Defense of Adventism and/or their attempt to talk to us about doctrines. If you are in a face to face discussion with one of your friends, and they are well catechised in Adventism, then you will really struggle proving your doctrine from scripture…

RCIA does not prepare us very well for Adventism… its not an apologetics course. and often the teachers have had very little experience in direct dialogue with other religions themselves. They are wonderful, but RCIA is a VERY VERY surface overview of the Catholic faith.

What I want you to realize is that you dont need to be afraid of your Adventists friends… and Marsha and I, and Adventistnomore, Real Catholic, Patrick, etc… will always be here to help you… but you have to give us the benefit of the doubt that we are Catholic (actually we are all very coservative catholic) and adhere strictly to church teaching…

It’s been obvious for a while that we’ve been off topic here. Do you want to start a thread and go from there or just stay here since we’ve pretty much hijacked this one and the OP doesn’t seem to mind?

 

[SDA2RC]

By the way, when did this turn into an evangelism test instead of a defense of catholic doctrine?

Happily,
This started when you responded to MY post to DJConklin with the following, apparently trying to correct what you felt I was saying wrong.

Hold the phone! First, the comparison is not in the Mosaic Law and God’s Law, it was the Mosaic Law and the Ten Commandments. There IS a very distinct difference in these two.

The Sabath was NOT in the Mosaic law, but the Ten Commandments. Mosaic law was a form of civil law, not Holy Law if you will.

 

[SDA2RC]

Because the Church has used the moral precepts of the Mosaic Law, summarized in the 10 commandmnets for simplicity, to look at a wide variety of actions and sins. The Church does not hold strictly to the commandments, but has expanded them and interpreted their moral teachings through the New Covenant. And it is by these teachings of the Church that we judge our conscious.

Okay, I’ll let you have your status here. Please enlighten me by answering my post regarding confession.

Believe me, I’ve been in discussions with SDAs and their Bibles. I’m not sure why you think me so ignorant. I lived in an Adventist family for 10 years. I know what and how they believe. It’s actually very simplistic.

What I’m encountering here is so much like the conversations I’ve had with my own friends it’s not even funny.

So please, answer my post about confession and if you are willing, we’ll go from there.

 

[happilycatholic]

Happily,
This started when you responded to MY post to DJConklin with the following, apparently trying to correct what you felt I was saying wrong.

Hold the phone! First, the comparison is not in the Mosaic Law and God’s Law, it was the Mosaic Law and the Ten Commandments. There IS a very distinct difference in these two.

The Sabath was NOT in the Mosaic law, but the Ten Commandments. Mosaic law was a form of civil law, not Holy Law if you will.

Oh no my friend. This discussion is over. I want you to tell me how I am to tell an Adventist that I discern my sins according to the Commandments but I don’t keep the Commandments.

Then I want you to tell me what to say when that Adventist tells me my Church set asunder the Commandments and that catholics are a cult because we don’t keep the Commandments.

Oh, and how the Church is the Whore of Babylon who changed the Commandments to suite herself when she doesn’t require her believers to keep them and they only did it to fulfill the end-times prophesy.

Answer those first.

 

[happilycatholic]

Because the Church has used the moral precepts of the Mosaic Law, summarized in the 10 commandmnets for simplicity, to look at a wide variety of actions and sins. The Church does not hold strictly to the commandments, but has expanded them and interpreted their moral teachings through the New Covenant. And it is by these teachings of the Church that we judge our conscious.

"But your literature explicitly lists the Commandments. Is your Church a liar trying to convince her believers that you follow them when you really don’t?

Why would your Church lie like that? Why would they make you confess according to the Commandments and then turn around and tell you they don’t hold strictly to them?

Seems like something fishy is going on in your Church. In my Church we hold strictly to God’s Law and the fact that we worship on Saturday is the proof. Your Church lies and tries to deceive is believers."

 

[Marsha_Adams]

Then tell me, in all your wisdom, what you will say when an SDA askes you why you use the Commandments for discernment of sin, but you are not bound to them. And how you can, by the authority of your so-called magesterium, not be bound by God’s Law.

Confession is a HUGE roadblock to would-be protestant converts. Are you going to just lower the bar or teach them to jump higher?

I would tell the SDA that the reason why I use the 10 commandments for discernment of sin because it is a concise summary of what the Church requires of me as a minimum of righteousness. Then I would tell the SDA that:

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

The 10 commandments are usefull for rebuking and correcting and training, but they are not binding as Law.

As for confession, I would teach them to jump higher by pointing to them what the Church requires of them, not to the “minimum” standard of righteousness.

Marsha

 

[Marsha_Adams]

Oh, and how the Church is the Whore of Babylon who changed the Commandments to suite herself when she doesn’t require her believers to keep them and they only did it to fulfill the end-times prophesy.

Bingo!! The Church did not change the Commandments BECAUSE we are not bound under the commandments. The Church had no reason to change the commandments, because she has authority over the Bible.

Marsha

 

[Marsha_Adams]

Yesterday, my Uncle Claude died. He was 93, he would have been 94 on inaugeration day. I am his closest relative both geographically and by blood, as well as the executor of his will. Therefore, I may be off line for much of the next few days. I will keep up as best I can, but please don’t think that I have disappeared.

Marsha

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

I would tell you that the Old Law was fulfilled in the coming of Christ. I would tell you that the Sabbath was a foreshadow. I would tell you that Saturday was a day given to God, the Creator and Sunday is a day given to God, the Savior.

I would tell you that we are still bound to the Third Commandment because what we once gave to God, we still do. Same God, same Commandment, different day.

Hello Y’all,

At the risk of getting my fingers bit, I’m going to stick my hand in here. Having followed this discussion since way back about 20 pages or so, I’m seeing everyone in violent agreement of sorts.

This was my biggest issue to resolve converting to Catholicism from Adventism, and I think HappilyCatholic, in the above quote, summed up the transition from saturday to sunday very well above.

The sabbath given to Moses, by God, was to remember the Creator of the first perfect creation in a world seperated from that original creation by sin.

The sabbath given to The Church, by God, is to remember the Creator who brings an end to that seperation caused by sin, by Re-creating mankind through the power of the life, death, and most importantly THE RESURRECTION of Jesus.

There is nothing significant about either the day of saturday or the day of sunday. What is significant is what happened on those days.

Yes, the 10 commandments serve as our moral code and we can use them as our standard by which we can reflect upon our lives and actions and see where we are OUT of God, which leads us to confession, forgiveness, and reconciliation which leads to communion with or IN God and the Body of Christ.

In the Old Covenant, Saturday was the day the people in that covenant with God followed, and in the New Covenant, Sunday is the day the people in this covenant with God follow…both based on scripture and the ACTS of God, NOT the ACTS of men. Saturday, the sign of the end and completeness of a perfect creation. Sunday, the sign of the beginning of a new and perfect Re-Creaton, Redemption, Restoration of God’s initial plan of love for mankind.

If saturday was still as important as the SDAs teach, I cannot for the life of me find anywhere in the Gospels where Jesus teaches that it is. He elaborated on all the other commandments of the 10 commandments, but other than healing, doing good, and defending accusations against Him of breaking the sabbath, He nowhere teaches it as so important, like the SDAs do.

And yet, The Lord’s Day, sunday, has been with the Church of God from the beginning and is taught in all the early writings of the Church and followed by ALL Apostolic Churches.

The problem comes in with trying to make “the day” more important that what it is a sign of…and Paul writes about this. And yet we are commanded, by God, to rest and keep holy the sabbath day, the 7th day (and MarysRoses had an excellent series of posts on that numbering…I believe either early in this thread or the Amazing Facts Bible Study Guides thread…I’ll find that link).

As for me, I will go with the One True Church of God, and obey God’s command to rest according to the New Covenant…since that is the time I live in.

What Brandon and Marsha have been saying it accurate, and what HappilyCatholic has been saying is accurate (how’s that for me being decisive? )

My two cents worth,

God bless all!!!

 

[happilycatholic]

Let me say this before we go further. In my RCIA class I actually stated that we “are free from the bounds of the Commandments”. My Deacon said to me:

No we are certainly bound to them and the reason why is because they are God’s minimal boundry (not withstanding Christ of course, but in terms of sin and sin setting us apart from God) between He and us. God’s Will is all encompassing but His Commandments are the basis for it.

The Deacon told me this: If a person were sitting in a room with nothing other than the actual Ten Commandments that person would have the basis for Christianity. With no religious background at all, that person would know God and how to please Him.

That is what I was told. And yes it is very simplistic, but yet very complex because that person in that room has nothing to confuse him, he has only God right there in the room. If we had only that and knowing what we know we’d obviously be lost.

We over anylize and over intellectualize religion, faith, the Scriptures, etc. and if we would just trust in God we would have the wealth of ignorance.

That’s why I am simplistic. Not because I am literally ignorant, but because I am spiritually ignorant beyond my faith. God did bless me with enough intelligence to understand fully what I read and the inquisitive nature to not just read but to research and study as well.

I read my catechism. I read my Bible. I go to Church and believe what she tells me. If that makes me stupid, I’ll except that. I’ve also been called a “lamb” on this forum and I’ll except that too.

So I am the ignorant lamb. We may not be the evangelists of the faith, but we are the caretakers of the faithful.

 

[happilycatholic]

Hello Y’all,

At the risk of getting my fingers bit, I’m going to stick my hand in here. Having followed this discussion since way back about 20 pages or so, I’m seeing everyone in violent agreement of sorts.

Thank you Patrick,

I cut your post down just for the sake of space.

I think this has been really nothing more than a really huge misunderstanding. I read the catechism differently and I think that is okay. I do that because it is the way I was catechized. In other words, I was shown that I could follow the Third Commandment because the Lord’s Day is actually listed under the explaination of the 3d Comm. in the catechism. So I keep it for a different reason.

That’s it in a nutshell. I don’t dump the baby out with the bathwater so to speak.

Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut it was very thoughtful and beautifully written. I appreciate it. (even if you don’t agree with me 100%)

But I am concerned and will speak to my Priest at mass.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

(and MarysRoses had an excellent series of posts on that numbering…I believe either early in this thread or the Amazing Facts Bible Study Guides thread…I’ll find that link).

Here is the link…her point about the term “seventh day” being an ordinal number rather than the name of a specific day is the point I’m referring to.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=4160772#post4160772

Also, If Friedrich and Protestant101 are still following this thread, I replied to you guys back on page 30 of this thread…but the conversation was moving so fast you may have missed my replies…so if you are interested in them, they are back on page 30.

God bless all!!!

 

[happilycatholic]

I would tell the SDA that the reason why I use the 10 commandments for discernment of sin because it is a concise summary of what the Church requires of me as a minimum of righteousness. Then I would tell the SDA that:

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

The 10 commandments are usefull for rebuking and correcting and training, but they are not binding as Law.

As for confession, I would teach them to jump higher by pointing to them what the Church requires of them, not to the “minimum” standard of righteousness.

Marsha

"So you are doing what your Church requires IN PLACE OF (that’s a big issue and hence my emphasis) what God says?

But the Commandments are still in your catechism book. Is your Church saying they are God’s law but not requiring you to conform to God’s law?

The catholic Church does this. It teaches you what God’s law is and then takes their authority to tell its believer to follow them and not God’s law."

 

[happilycatholic]

Bingo!! The Church did not change the Commandments BECAUSE we are not bound under the commandments. The Church had no reason to change the commandments, because she has authority over the Bible.

Marsha

"Then why are the Commandments different in your Bible than in mine? The one about idol worship has been taken out by your Church because you indeed worshp Mary and the Saints.

The Commandments are also different in your catechism book. They combine the first and second ones and they are numbered differently there. The Bible does not do this. Is your Church misleading its believers? Did the Church make up its own set of Commandments and force its believers to believe they are correct by placing them in their catechism book?