why is sunday instead of saturday the sabboth?

[guanophore]

Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

The law that is written on the hearts is the same as the one that was on stone.

Indeed, but now we understand it without the veil, throught the Revelation of the One who wrote it.

Then you don’t need the Mass either.

Do you think Jesus gave us things we don’t really need?

If your argument was logical then baptism by immersion wouldn’t have been given to us a memorial to Christ’s death and resurrection.

It, like the Mass, is an amanesis. Memorial by participation. We are really buried under the water, and we really eat, just as the Jews ate the “memorial” Lamb.

We need the memorial to Creation to reminds us that we didn’t evolve out of a pea-soup bog.

It is important for you to meet your needs. I see that.

You are created in the image of God to give glory to Hiom, by loving Him with all your heart, mind and strength and your neighbor as yourself.

Yes, it is our new creation in Christ that we observe, being born again through the resurrection of the Firstfruits.

 This is called an analogy. :thumbsup:

I think I am getting the idea that your faith practices are based upon analogy, an application of human reason. This is how Cain offered sacrifce to God.

For the obvious reason that Jesus is the Lamb who was slain from the foundation of the world for our sins.

It seems odd that you would see this, yet not recognize that He is our Rest as well.

N
You were doing great () till the last clause. The Sabbath is a memorial to God creating life on this earth–as such he as our Creator has the right to say how we will live.* And as the writer of Hebrews the Sabbath is a type of the rest we have in Him for it is He who sanctifies us.

This is very Catholic. The Sabbath indeed is a type of the rest we have in Him, for it is He that has made us a new creation!

When you keep the Sabbath holy you show that you accept His sanctification for you and are not trying to earn your salvation by your own work.

Well more power to you, I say. :clapping:

I am glad that you accept His sanctification for you.

• He told us to “remember” in the 4th commandment because He knew we’d forget.

Indeed. There are many today who have been made new creations in Christ that forget about that also.

 

[djconklin]

In fact, we have the opposite!

“For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” Matt 5:18-20

That is correct.

In all places, Paul indicates that our salvation begins at baptism, is in process during this life, and is completed when we are glorified. It is that hope of glorification that is yet to come, as Christ is our Sabbath Rest.

Correct also.

Originally Posted by djconklin
No. The analogy was used as a way to explain things.

Necessary since nothing else is available.

No, reason is based on the available facts. We work with what we have.

Originally Posted by djconklin
Your premise about what SDA’s teach is in error. The doctrines of the SDA church are based on God’s Written Word.

Well, you just got done explaining that it was based on reasoning.

I didn’t say that at all.

So maybe you mean that an SDA ‘reasons’ their way through what they believe is God’s Word?

No, we know we have God’s Written Word.

Now you are saying that it is based on “God’s Written Word”, which is subject to the mind of the one reading it.

No, Scripture interprets itself.

Originally Posted by djconklin
Do you know what an analogty is? Since I didn’t buy into the Marcion heresy that split the Bible in two I use the whole Bible.

I doubt that. I is more likely you are using the truncated Protestant Bible given to you by the Reformers.I said what I meant (minus the misspelling, of course).

Originally Posted by djconklin
And yet they repeatedly went against God’s will!

The truth is not defined by those who are disobedient. That is correct.

Originally Posted by djconklin
God didn’t tell them that marriage was between a man and a woman. They reasoned it out from the Creation account.

God did tell them.

There is no evidence of that.

Human reason is what resulted in the polygamy we see rampant in the dynasty of David.

And long before that.

Originally Posted by djconklin
God didn’t tell them that the first-born was to lead the house-hold. They reasoned it out from the Creation account. They were created in the image of God and so when God rested on the seventh day so did they.

So, they figured out they needed to rest on the Sabbath because God did?That is correct

How is it they did not “reason out” that they needed to copy God in creation also?

While we do not have the power to create as God did we do have power to create in our sphere–see the great works of art and inventions.

Originally Posted by djconklin
What about all the Jews before Moses? {fixed}

I am glad that you are finally hearing my question. However, instead of repeating it, perhaps you might be willing to answer?As I noted before I didn’t see that you had asked this question; I’ll take your word for it.

Since we now know that the languages were created long before there ever was a Jew (and yet in over 100 of them the name of the seventh day of the week is known as “sabbath”) and when they kept the Sabbath a month before the law was even given, it is obvious that they knew about the Sabbath before Sinai. So, it is wrong to say that the sabbath was made for the Jews.

Originally Posted by djconklin
If the Sabbath was only for the Jews why didn’t Jesus says so? Jesus said the Sabbath was for man, he didn’t say anything about the Jews. Jesus is the Savior of all mankind, not just the Jews. Otherwise, only the Jews will be keeping the Sabbath on the new earth.

Those who have not received Christ as their Sabbath rest still observe the pre-Christian Sabbath.Incorrect, the seventh-day Sabbath is the physical manifestation of the rest we have in Christ. Only those who truly rest in Christ can keep the Sabbath holy.

I was referring to your declaration that there were “days” before the creation of the sun and the moon.

I never said that. The Bible says that there were days (night and light) before the 4th day.

Originally Posted by djconklin
Jesus clearly taught that that was not the way it was supposed to be. I don’t need a group of people to tell me which way is up.

My point exactly. The Jews did not practice monogamy.At the time of Christ they were monogamous.

 

[guanophore]

No, reason is based on the available facts.  We work with what we have.

Yes, I understand. I realize that you are reasoning on what you have, which is all that you have left after being separated from the Apostolic Succession. It would be much more effective, though, if you would have “more”! Then you might be able to arrive where you really need to be. Reason cannot unite us to God. Reason is insufficient to attain the fullness of faith.

I didn't say that at all.

No, we know we have God’s Written Word.

No, Scripture interprets itself.

Really? where does God’s Written Word say that?

I said what I meant (minus the misspelling, of course).

I am sure that you believe what you have recieved is the Word of God. It is interesting that what you have is not what the Apostles passed to the disciples.

There is no evidence of that.

Do you not believe that Jesus is God, either? It is a wonder that you are not mistaken as a Mormon!

And long before that.

So, we are in agreement that it was not plain to the Jewish people that marriage was between one man and one woman?

That is correct

I see. Well, I am glad that you, also, by using human reason, have discerned that you need to rest on the Sabbath because that is what God did. In this case, it seems that human reasoning has certainly prevailed!

As I noted before I didn’t see that you had asked this question; I’ll take your word for it.

We can pretend I have not, or that no one else has either, for that matter. The question was asking for evidence that the Sabbath was observed prior to Moses.

Since we now know that the languages were created long before there ever was a Jew (and yet in over 100 of them the name of the seventh day of the week is known as “sabbath”) and when they kept the Sabbath a month before the law was even given, it is obvious that they knew about the Sabbath before Sinai. So, it is wrong to say that the sabbath was made for the Jews.

Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for man. He chose, from among all the peoples, the nation of Israel. He gave the Israelites very specific commandments and expectations about the observation of the Sabbath. At no time did He reinforce these with Gentiles.

the seventh-day Sabbath is the physical manifestation of the rest we have in Christ. Only those who truly rest in Christ can keep the Sabbath holy.

I agree! Our true Sabbath is spiritual. While this rest does reflect itself in the physical realm, the Source of it is spiritual, and the fulfillment spiritual.

I never said that.  The Bible says that there were days (night and light) before the 4th day.

You are calculating your method of how and when to observe the Sabbath Law by the “days” of the week and rising and setting of the sun. I am just curious about the “days” and “weeks” where there was none.

At the time of Christ they were monogamous.

No. If this were true, then the directions for the choice of bishop would not include “husband of one wife”.

 

[djconklin]

Reason cannot unite us to God. Reason is insufficient to attain the fullness of faith.

I never said that it could; this is a red-herring argument.

No, Scripture interprets itself.

Really? where does God’s Written Word say that?

That requires an extensive knowledge of hermeneutics, etc… Start here: shop.com/±a-%22Scripture+interprets+itself%22-p155802520-q-k24-skipn-st.shtml (some 80 books)

It is a wonder that you are not mistaken as a Mormon!

I am never mistaken for a Mormon.

Originally Posted by djconklin
Since we now know that the languages were created long before there ever was a Jew (and yet in over 100 of them the name of the seventh day of the week is known as “sabbath”) and when they kept the Sabbath a month before the law was even given, it is obvious that they knew about the Sabbath before Sinai. So, it is wrong to say that the sabbath was made for the Jews.

Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for man. He chose, from among all the peoples, the nation of Israel. He gave the Israelites very specific commandments and expectations about the observation of the Sabbath. At no time did He reinforce these with Gentiles.

The actual, cold, hard evidence shows that all mankind knew of the Sabbath long before there ever was a Jew. In the command itself it says that even the stranger within the gates was to keep the Sabbath.

While this rest does reflect itself in the physical realm, the Source of it is spiritual, and the fulfillment spiritual.

That is correct.

Originally Posted by djconklin
I never said that. The Bible says that there were days (night and light) before the 4th day.

You are calculating your method of how and when to observe the Sabbath Law by the “days” of the week and rising and setting of the sun.

I didn’t saything of the sort; re-read what I wrote.

Originally Posted by djconklin
At the time of Christ they were monogamous.

No.

I note the absence of any sort of proof.

If this were true, then the directions for the choice of bishop would not include “husband of one wife”.

Actually, the Greek says “one man woman”; there’s about a half dozen or so interpretations of what it means.

But, I’ll work with yours: how many bishops are married to one wife???

 

[inJESUS]

The actual, cold, hard evidence shows that all mankind knew of the Sabbath long before there ever was a Jew.

evidence from the Bible? where?

 

[inJESUS]

If SDAs are required to keep the Sabbath, do they remain home on that day? no fire kindling on that day and the rest of prohibitions? what about the punishment for not observing it? who carries the punishment ?

What about circumcision? do they observe it?

Do they worship on Sunday as well or only the Sabbath?

what does this passage mean:

At a time when you did not know God, you became slaves to things that by nature are not gods;

but now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and destitute elemental powers? Do you want to be slaves to them all over again?

You are observing days, months, seasons, and years.
I am afraid on your account that perhaps I have labored for you in vain.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

I never said that it could; this is a red-herring argument.

That requires an extensive knowledge of hermeneutics, etc… Start here: shop.com/±a-%22Scripture+interprets+itself%22-p155802520-q-k24-skipn-st.shtml (some 80 books)
**
Now that is a red herring argument. You blow too much smoke. With hermeneitucs you can say anything! That authority was only given to the RCC by Jesus!**

I am never mistaken for a Mormon.

**I was going to agrue with you until I noticed the second m! **

The actual, cold, hard evidence shows that all mankind knew of the Sabbath long before there ever was a Jew. In the command itself it says that even the stranger within the gates was to keep the Sabbath.

Your cold hard facts are what? Did Jesus say that?

That is correct.

I didn’t saything of the sort; re-read what I wrote.

I note the absence of any sort of proof.

Actually, the Greek says “one man woman”; there’s about a half dozen or so interpretations of what it means.

Not that any sensible person would believe!

But, I’ll work with yours: how many bishops are married to one wife???

**Everyone of the actually. Our priests and Bishops are married to the Church! The RCC is the bride of Jesus Himself! **

 

[djconklin]

Originally Posted by djconklin

The actual, cold, hard evidence shows that all mankind knew of the Sabbath long before there ever was a Jew.

evidence from the Bible? where?

Where did I say “from the Bible”? Define “from the Bible.”

You may have missed the several previous posts where I noted that when the languages were created back at the tower of Babel (see Gen. 11) over 100 of them (and I found 2 more) had “sabbath” as their name for the seventh day of the week.

Note also that in Exodus 16 they knew about the Sabbath a month BEFORE it was given in law. So, how long BEFORE that time did they know about the Sabbath?

 

[djconklin]

Actually, the Greek says “one man woman”; there’s about a half dozen or so interpretations of what it means.

Not that any sensible person would believe!

Well, I wouldn’t be the first to try and read other people’s minds and impugn their motives.

But, I’ll work with yours: how many bishops are married to one wife???

Everyone of the actually. Our priests and Bishops are married to the Church! The RCC is the bride of Jesus Himself!

One speaker on the issue noted that in his home town in Ohio they had one interpretation. When he was a seminary student in France they had another and when he was a missionary in Africa they had another.

I am never mistaken for a Mormon.

I was going to agrue with you until I noticed the second m!

We’re done, I will never talk to you again.

 

[Carol_Williams]

Saturday is the true Sabbath. The Ten Commandments say, “REMEMBER the Sabbath and keep it Holy.” Jesus was crucified on Friday, taken down from the cross before sunset and put into the tomb. He did not receive the proper burial because it would infringe on the Sabbath that starts at sunset on Friday. Jesus rested on Sabbath day and rose on Sunday. There is nothing in the Bible to change Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. There is nothing in the Bible to show Sunday as being blessed as the Holy day. If you want confirmation of how the switch to Sunday keeping came about, read the article printed in the Catholic Mirror of Baltinore Maryland published in consecative weeks “September 2, 9, 16, & 23” in 1893 written by Cardinal Gibbons. The Catholic Mirror was the offical organ of Cardinal Gibbons and the Papacy in the United States. The articles name was Romes Challenge Why Do Protestants Keep Sunday.

 

[guanophore]

Actually, the Greek says “one man woman”; there’s about a half dozen or so interpretations of what it means.

But, I’ll work with yours: how many bishops are married to one wife???

Since Timothy was a Catholic bishop, and obedient to the Apostolic authority, then when he received this rule, I am use 100% of them were not chosen from among polygamists, serial or otherwise.

All the Catholic bishops are now mongamists.

 

[guanophore]

Saturday is the true Sabbath. The Ten Commandments say, “REMEMBER the Sabbath and keep it Holy.” Jesus was crucified on Friday, taken down from the cross before sunset and put into the tomb. He did not receive the proper burial because it would infringe on the Sabbath that starts at sunset on Friday. Jesus rested on Sabbath day and rose on Sunday. There is nothing in the Bible to change Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. There is nothing in the Bible to show Sunday as being blessed as the Holy day.

If you want confirmation of how the switch to Sunday keeping came about, read the article printed in the Catholic Mirror of Baltinore Maryland published in consecative weeks “September 2, 9, 16, & 23” in 1893 written by Cardinal Gibbons. The Catholic Mirror was the offical organ of Cardinal Gibbons and the Papacy in the United States. The articles name was Romes Challenge Why Do Protestants Keep Sunday.

What makes you think that Jesus was “resting” on the Sabbath? Would that include preaching and gathering lost souls? Are the new Sabbatarians, like the Levitical priests, permitted to labor on Saturday in the cause of gaining souls?

Can you please demonstrate how the Catholic Mirror “was the official organ” of the Magesterium?

ps, welcome to CAF!

 

[inJESUS]

Where did I say “from the Bible”? Define “from the Bible.”

You may have missed the several previous posts where I noted that when the languages were created back at the tower of Babel (see Gen. 11) over 100 of them (and I found 2 more) had “sabbath” as their name for the seventh day of the week.

Note also that in Exodus 16 they knew about the Sabbath a month BEFORE it was given in law. So, how long BEFORE that time did they know about the Sabbath?

i don’t understand sorry. If they knew the “word”, where is the obligation of observing the Sabbath?

would you kindly answer my questions regarding how you observe the sabbath and the rest of my questions?

 

[Marsha_Adams]

Carol:

Please read the previous 65 pages of this thread. You will see that you are incorrect on several counts.

Marsha

 

[djconklin]

What makes you think that Jesus was “resting” on the Sabbath? Would that include preaching and gathering lost souls? Are the new Sabbatarians, like the Levitical priests, permitted to labor on Saturday in the cause of gaining souls?

Resting from secular work.

If they knew the “word”, where is the obligation of observing the Sabbath?

So, you’re claiming that they knew about the Sabbath but not that they were supposed to be keeping it? How logical is that?

would you kindly answer my questions regarding how you observe the sabbath and the rest of my questions?

I answered a bunch of your questions and you have yet to respond to them and in previous responses some that you did respond to weren’t very nice responses.​

Carol:

Please read the previous 65 pages of this thread. You will see that you are incorrect on several counts.

Marsha

And that some people on this forum make claims they can’t back up.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

So, I would ask everyone on this thread to allow the SDAs a little time and breathing room to answer a few questions. And I would ask the SDAs to answer the following questions with scripture only. Forget the Catholic Catechism, forget the Sunday Mirror, and Forget the writings of Ellen G. White.

So from scripture alone…

So where are we in answering these questions with Biblical scriptural support?

It is getting close to 20 pages past where I initially asked the questions below…so what it the status of answers?

1. If you believe that each day of the creation story is a literal 24 hour period, how do you explain there being morning and evening for 3 days before the sun and moon were created?

Friedrich, attempted to provide an answer to this question in Post # 762. While he gave a very reasoned answer for why he believes the creation story is a literal 7 day period, he did not answer the question above.

No one else has addressed this question.

1. Since there is no command by God in the creation story to Adam and Eve to keep holy the sabbath day, what does the 7th day of creation mean to you in the context of the creation story?

No one has addressed this question as to what the lack of a command from God to Adam and Eve to keep holy or observe the 7th day means.

1. From the time of creation and for the next 10 plus generations of people on earth, why is there no mention of the sabbath until the time of Moses?

djconlin attempted to answer this question without any Biblical scriptural support. He did use the work of Dr. Jones and a conclusion drawn from languages created at the Tower of Babel.

I guess I’m wondering what the date was where languages were created at the Tower of Babel?

Who is to say that terms for the 7th day of the week did not come along at later dates in the linquistic developments of mankind. I’m skeptical of someone who claims to know that a word was present at the Tower of Babel for all those present at the time. I would like to see a summary of dates and explanation which make that claim a little clearer.

Still, there is no Biblical scriptural support.

As for the sabbath being talked about a month before the exodus…well…that is the time of Moses and where the sabbath first appears in the scriptures. So that point is moot in the context of this question.

1. In Jesus teaching regarding the Law and Him being the fulfilment of the Law in Matthew chapters 5-6, why does he not teach about the importance of the sabbath/saturday?

No one has addressed this question.

And you would think that this is where all those who claim the eternal binding of saturday on mankind would find its greatest Biblical scriptural support, if indeed it is Biblical and scriptural.

1. In all of the approximately 57 times that sabbath/saturday is mentioned in the New Testament, why is there no teaching, mention, or hint that the 7th day sabbath/saturday must be kept?

No one has addressed this question.

And you would think that this is where all those who claim the eternal binding of saturday on mankind would find its greatest Biblical scriptural support, if indeed it is Biblical and scriptural.

1. In all of the approximately 57 times that sabbath/saturday is mentioned in the New Testament, why is there no teaching about how important the sabbath/saturday will be as a test of fidelity to God at the end of time?

No one has addressed this question.

And you would think that this is where all those who claim the eternal binding of saturday on mankind would find its greatest Biblical scriptural support, if indeed it is Biblical and scriptural.

I hope these questions don’t get lost in this fast moving thread, and I hope that more than one SDA will take part in answering them.

God bless all!!!

 

[inJESUS]

Resting from secular work.

So, you’re claiming that they knew about the Sabbath but not that they were supposed to be keeping it? How logical is that?

 

[happilycatholic]

If SDAs are required to keep the Sabbath, do they remain home on that day? no fire kindling on that day and the rest of prohibitions? what about the punishment for not observing it? who carries the punishment ?

What about circumcision? do they observe it?

Do they worship on Sunday as well or only the Sabbath?

what does this passage mean:

At a time when you did not know God, you became slaves to things that by nature are not gods;

but now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and destitute elemental powers? Do you want to be slaves to them all over again?

You are observing days, months, seasons, and years.
I am afraid on your account that perhaps I have labored for you in vain.

Again, my question gets asked and re-asked. Is any SDA EVER going to answer these? I mean I just want to know how they justify taking pieces and parts of both laws as if they were the same law. Then all the while they pretend to separate them: “God’s Law” and “Law of Moses”.

TO ALL SDAs:

There is NO element in the Sabbath day of worship honoring Christ the Redeemer! If you are worshipping on the Sabbath, that is going to church, you are leaving out Christ the Redeemer and denying His Crucifixion and all that goes with it including His Redeeming Power! You cannot be forgiven by Him if you deny His very act of Redemtion for all man-kind by keeping only the Sabbath given to the Jews so that they would honor the Creator. Even they know that for goodness sake!

The very fact that you call yourself Christian and keep the Sabbath is a contridiction. You are, in effect, imperfect Jews not perfect Christians as you seem to think. Why do you not keep the rest of the laws as Jews do?

 

[inJESUS]

Again, my question gets asked and re-asked. Is any SDA EVER going to answer these?

i didn’t know you asked before as the thread is too long but since you got no answer, now we are 2 who want to know.

 

[happilycatholic]

i didn’t know you asked before as the thread is too long but since you got no answer, now we are 2 who want to know.

Actually, there are at least three on here with unanswered questions. Poor Patrick would be dust by now if he were holding his breath.