why is sunday instead of saturday the sabboth?

[djconklin]

If circumcision is a practice, isn’t it a practice within the Mosaic law?

It pre-existed the Law.

Yes. Those activities would be considered work.

so you observe the sabbath in the same way Jews do it according to the Mosaic practices, right?

We refrain from secular work and seeking our own pleasure.

why didn’t God ask for the observance of the Sabbath before Moses since the intention for salvation pre-dates Moses?

Who said He didn’t? When the languages were created over 100 of them retained a knowledge of the Sabbath in their name for the seventh-day of the week.

do we have any record of people before Moses observing the Sabbath as per the Mosaic law because God saved them or was going to save them?

There is no written evidence that anyone prior to a month before the law was given kept the Sabbath. However it is an assumption, and only that, that the absence of evidence is evidence of absence.

 

[Protestant101]

The truth is that there are no scriptures that will answer my 6 questions.
God bless all!!!

You have been shown several times now where scriptural answers are being addressed in another thread to your six questions. Like it or lump it, there are scriptural answers, if you will face them.

 

[Carol_Williams]

To the person who said something about leap year. The days of the week, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday never change. What changes on leap year is the dates, not the days of the week.

As for the rest of the questions, give me a day to look up your answers so I can give you the correct answers. I got home late tonight and need time to look things up.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Using your prinicple of “Sola Scriptura” where the exact words have to be used:

OHHHHHH MYYYYYY…No wonder we have been at an impasse. What we have here (for all the Cool Hand Luke fans) is a failure to communicate!

It has never been my principle of “Sola Scriptura” that the exact word has to be used for it to be a Biblical scriptural teaching.

No, of course you won’t find the word "monogamy, trinity, eucharist, etc. in the Bible but that in no way takes away the scriptural support for those teachings.

I’m not aware that I ever placed that limitation on my questions, so I can now see your frustration. I’ve only asked that you supply scriptures that answer my 6 Questions.

Jesus teachings that a man and woman marry and become one are very clear in the verses I cited. And it is very clear from His teachings that people who divorce and re-marry for reasons other than what He specifed are committing adultery. That is very clear from Jesus teachings and the scriptures.

I am asking you and the SDAs to provide clear scriptures regarding my 6 Questions as to the sabbath/saturday beliefs held by SDAs.

I hope that clears up the misunderstanding and that you all can now go on and answer my 6 Questions!!!

God bless all!!!

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

You have been shown several times now where scriptural answers are being addressed in another thread to your six questions. Like it or lump it, there are scriptural answers, if you will face them.

I just went and read your 5 posts on the thread you started regarding my 6 questions regarding the creation story. In those 5 posts of yours, I saw 2 scripture references in the book of John, and a repeat of 3 scripture references from Genesis chapter 1, none of which address those questions.

The majority of those 5 posts of yours were mostly telling me that I was scripted, tricky, out of touch with Catholic teachings, etc.

If you’ve shown me the scripture answers “several time”, please refer me to the thread title and post numbers because I do not see them anywhere.

Making accusations about me is not answering my questions.

Here are my 6 Questions that belong in this thread, so please answer these, if you can, in this thread. Thank you in advance!

So from scripture alone…

**1. If you believe that each day of the creation story is a literal 24 hour period, how do you explain there being morning and evening for 3 days before the sun and moon were created?

1. Since there is no command by God in the creation story to Adam and Eve to keep holy the sabbath day, what does the 7th day of creation mean to you in the context of the creation story?
2. From the time of creation and for the next 10 plus generations of people on earth, why is there no mention of the sabbath until the time of Moses?
3. In Jesus teaching regarding the Law and Him being the fulfilment of the Law in Matthew chapters 5-6, why does he not teach about the importance of the sabbath/saturday?
4. In all of the approximately 57 times that sabbath/saturday is mentioned in the New Testament, why is there no teaching, mention, or hint that the 7th day sabbath/saturday must be kept?
5. In all of the approximately 57 times that sabbath/saturday is mentioned in the New Testament, why is there no teaching about how important the sabbath/saturday will be as a test of fidelity to God at the end of time?**

God bless all!!!

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

OHHHHHH MYYYYYY…No wonder we have been at an impasse. What we have here (for all the Cool Hand Luke fans) is a failure to communicate!

It has never been my principle of “Sola Scriptura” that the exact word has to be used for it to be a Biblical scriptural teaching.

No, of course you won’t find the word "monogamy, trinity, eucharist, etc. in the Bible but that in no way takes away the scriptural support for those teachings.

I’m not aware that I ever placed that limitation on my questions, so I can now see your frustration. I’ve only asked that you supply scriptures that answer my 6 Questions.

Jesus teachings that a man and woman marry and become one are very clear in the verses I cited. And it is very clear from His teachings that people who divorce and re-marry for reasons other than what He specifed are committing adultery. That is very clear from Jesus teachings and the scriptures.

I am asking you and the SDAs to provide clear scriptures regarding my 6 Questions as to the sabbath/saturday beliefs held by SDAs.

I hope that clears up the misunderstanding and that you all can now go on and answer my 6 Questions!!!

God bless all!!!

P.S. Unlike finding scriptures that contain words such as “Trinity”, “monogamy”, “Eucharist”…the word “sabbath” appears numerous times throughout the Bible.

So that should make it easier to find scriptures concerning my 6 Questions regarding “the sabbath”.

God bless all!!!

 

[djconklin]

It has never been my principle of “Sola Scriptura” that the exact word has to be used for it to be a Biblical scriptural teaching.

Then my answer to your 1st and 3rd questions stand. Re-done with additional material. BTW, there is nothing that states that everything must be recorded in the Bible for it to be true.

1. If you believe that each day of the creation story is a literal 24 hour period, how do you explain there being morning and evening for 3 days before the sun and moon were created?

Overly simplistic reading of the text. The object of the 4th day was to set the sun to rule the day and the moon to rule the night. They had to have been there before that otherwise, there couldn’t have been any day or night before that, which the Bible says there was.

1. From the time of creation and for the next 10 plus generations of people on earth, why is there no mention of the sabbath until the time of Moses?

1. The use of the phrase “time of Moses” is a neat ploy to avoid the problem with the Sabbath being mentioned explicitly a month before the commandment was given. What does “the time of Moses” mean? Does it refer back to when he was in the reed basket on the Nile? When did Moses get the command to keep the Sabbath?
2. Exodus 5:5 And Pharaoh said, Behold, the people of the land now are many, and ye make them rest from their burdens. The word for rest is a form of “sabbath.”
3. Dr. William Mead Jones found that in over 100 languages the name of the seventh day of the week is known as “sabbath.” This tells us that they knew ab’t the Sabbath before there ever was a Jew.
   ===

1. In Jesus teaching regarding the Law and Him being the fulfilment of the Law in Matthew chapters 5-6, why does he not teach about the importance of the sabbath/saturday?

The first commandment he covers is “Thou shalt not kill” (vs. 21); that means He also did not “teach about the importance” of worshipping only God, not taking His name in vain, not making and bowing down to graven images, honoring one’s parents. The next, and last, commandment He covers is “thou shalt not commit adultery.” That means He also skipped over not stealing, not coveting, not bearing false witness. There are no commandments covered in chapter 6. So, what Christ did was to take 2 of the 10 and show that it applied not to just the physical act but also to the thought patterns in your mind.

1. In all of the approximately 57 times that sabbath/saturday is mentioned in the New Testament, why is there no teaching, mention, or hint that the 7th day sabbath/saturday must be kept?

Why state the obvious? There was no conflict over it. There are historical accounts of Gentiles keeping the Sabbath, without apparently, becoming Jews–the mind and the body need the day of rest.

 

[Protestant101]

I just went and read your 5 posts on the thread you started regarding my 6 questions regarding the creation story. In those 5 posts of yours, I saw 2 scripture references in the book of John, and a repeat of 3 scripture references from Genesis chapter 1, none of which address those questions.

The majority of those 5 posts of yours were mostly telling me that I was scripted, tricky, out of touch with Catholic teachings, etc.

To anyone interested

Patrick has obviously decided to reject any and all explanations to his “questions” leaving questions about his questions. No matter what anyone says to him about these so called questions, he keeps stating that we “did not answer;” yet lots of answers are being given. These 6 questions certainly are scripted, almost word for word from an anti-Adventist web site/book, meaning, among other things that these questions have only one intention; and it’s nothing to do with the truth.

If you are interested in looking at some sensible Bible explanations about his six questions; the subject is progressing at this link: Click Here.

At this separate topic; I stated the following:

While I want to continue answering these 6 questions here; I would like to concurrently discuss the Catholic views on the Genesis account of Creation, and how those views might impact the challenges being put forth in these 6 questions about the Sabbath.

So far; I have begun to address question #1 that Patrick asked, as stated above; and I did state the Bible answers there; especially in post #5.

One of the reasons that people tend to dismiss the text of Genesis which I quoted there, is because they do not correctly "interpret the NT text which says: “By faith we understand…” Certainly, in this case it would apply. The literal Word of God must be taken at Faith’s Value!

My intention is to address each of the 6 questions, one at a time, as time permits. I hope you will hear me out, and that we can learn something good from each other. I will look forward to the continuation of that discussion as time permits.

 

[happilycatholic]

“BTW, there is nothing that states that everything must be recorded in the Bible for it to be true.”

OMGoodness! YAY! We’re done.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Thank you for your answers to Questions 1), 3), 4), and 5) of my 6 Questions! That only leaves Qustions 2), and 6) for you to answer. I do sincerely appreciate you providing your answers!

Then my answer to your 1st and 3rd questions stand. Re-done with additional material. BTW, there is nothing that states that everything must be recorded in the Bible for it to be true.

If you believe that, then I cannot understand your quarrel with churches who interpret the Bible differently from the way SDAs interpret the Bible???

Overly simplistic reading of the text. The object of the 4th day was to set the sun to rule the day and the moon to rule the night. They had to have been there before that otherwise, there couldn’t have been any day or night before that, which the Bible says there was.

Overly neglectful reading of the text in Genesis chapter 1.

If you read what and how God creates each day in the creation story, He always begins His creation by saying “Let there be”.

On Day One: Genesis 1:2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. 3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

Notice that He created Light on the 1st day by saying “Let there be light”. And notice that “light” in verse 3 is singular.

On Day Four: *Genesis 1:14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. 16 **God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. *17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

Notice that He created Lights on the 4th day by saying “Let there be lights”. And notice that “lights” in verse 14 is plural. Verse 16 says that God made two great lights to govern the day and night, and he also made the stars. (the scipture quotes above are from the NIV…but the singular and plural shows up in all the other versions I’ve looked at)

I agree with you as to object and purpose for which those 2 lights were created. But I disagree with you that they "had to have been there before that otherwise, there couldn’t have been any day or night before that, which the Bible says there was" A careful reading of the scriptures proves otherwise.

And that was my question number 1…how do you explain that taking a literal interpretation of 7, 24 hour days in the creation story.

I don’t feel that you have answered my question number 1, but I will not continue to ask you to answer it.

(con’t on next post)

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

(con’t from previous post)

1. The use of the phrase “time of Moses” is a neat ploy to avoid the problem with the Sabbath being mentioned explicitly a month before the commandment was given. What does “the time of Moses” mean? Does it refer back to when he was in the reed basket on the Nile? When did Moses get the command to keep the Sabbath?
2. Exodus 5:5 And Pharaoh said, Behold, the people of the land now are many, and ye make them rest from their burdens. The word for rest is a form of “sabbath.”
3. Dr. William Mead Jones found that in over 100 languages the name of the seventh day of the week is known as “sabbath.” This tells us that they knew ab’t the Sabbath before there ever was a Jew.===

Ok…the phrase “time of Moses” is unclear, I’ll give you that. But it was not a “ploy”, either “neat” or messy.

How about this for clarification: The first place where the sabbath is mentioned in the Bible is found in Exodus 16:23. Why is there no mention of the sabbath in the Bible before this verse, and why is there no command from God to mankind to “keep” the sabbath before this time in the Bible if it is of eternal importance as the SDAs teach?

The first commandment he covers is “Thou shalt not kill” (vs. 21); that means He also did not “teach about the importance” of worshipping only God, not taking His name in vain, not making and bowing down to graven images, honoring one’s parents. The next, and last, commandment He covers is “thou shalt not commit adultery.” That means He also skipped over not stealing, not coveting, not bearing false witness. There are no commandments covered in chapter 6. So, what Christ did was to take 2 of the 10 and show that it applied not to just the physical act but also to the thought patterns in your mind.

Again, I may have thrown you off by citing Matthew chapters 5-6. For clarification purposes, and for you to further review, it should be Matthew chapters 5-7…5, 6, and 7. My typo.

This is Jesus quintessential teaching regarding Him being the fulfillment of the Law. If you read all three chapters Jesus teaches about much more than just murder and adultery. He teaches about murder, adultery, divorce, oaths, justice, love, charity, prayer, fasting, treasures in Heaven, worry, judging, God’s willingness to give to us, the narrow and wide gates, the signs that reveal God’s followers, and the security of putting these teachings of Jesus into practice.

These three chapters are Jesus’ teachings in the context of Him declaring that He is the fulfillment of the Law. No teaching about the importance of the sabbath for Christians, especially those in the end times can be found in these teachings that I can see. Why not if it is so important as to keep us from receiving the mark of the beast?

Why state the obvious? There was no conflict over it. There are historical accounts of Gentiles keeping the Sabbath, without apparently, becoming Jews–the mind and the body need the day of rest.

Are you saying that they were keeping the sabbath holy in complete accord with how God wanted them to keep the sabbath holy, and that there was conflict in that they were having problems with murdering and committing adultery??

It seems odd that they were keeping a day holy and didn’t need to be taught about that, but did need to be taught about not killing each other and cheating on their spouses. If that was the case…perhaps they weren’t keeping the sabbath very holy.

I do appreciate you answering 4 of my 6 Questions…yet there is still the lack of scriptural support.

I will stop nagging you and wait for the other SDAs who said they will answer these questions. But then I should have gone easier on you since you are not a SDA…correct?

God bless all!!!

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

To anyone interested

Patrick has obviously decided to reject any and all explanations to his “questions” leaving questions about his questions. No matter what anyone says to him about these so called questions, he keeps stating that we “did not answer;” yet lots of answers are being given. These 6 questions certainly are scripted, almost word for word from an anti-Adventist web site/book, meaning, among other things that these questions have only one intention; and it’s nothing to do with the truth.

Howdy Pawdner!!!

I don’t know if anyone else is interested, but you really have my interest highly aroused here!!!

How about you provide a link to those “scripted questions” on that anit-Adventist web site you mention above??? And just for reference purposes, go ahead and cite the title, author, and publisher of the book you mention above as well.

I am very interested to see them…and since you mentioned it, well, I just thought I’d ask you to deliver.

But trust me, they were my questions. I did not read them or take them from anywhere else. But I wouldn’t be surprised if somewhere, sometime, somehow, someone else had those questions, or at least similar questions.

They aren’t spectacular questions from some great intellect…they are merely reasonable questions to some very strong assertions that continue to be made, asking for some scriptural support from the Bible for those Bible-only beliefs.

So please provide a link to those “scripted questions” if you would. And please provide the link here on this thread…there is no need for you to start a new thread to post that link. And it shouldn’t take too long to copy and past a URL that you already know about, so I don’t expect that you will “need to get around to posting it when you have some time or as time permits”.

Thanks in advance!!!

God bless all!!!

 

[djconklin]

“BTW, there is nothing that states that everything must be recorded in the Bible for it to be true.”

OMGoodness! YAY! We’re done.

For petey’s sake, think it through!

You know you should wash your hands before you eat and after you’ve gone to the bathroom. Does it say that they did that in Bible times? Does that mean that they didn’t? Of course not.

You should chew your food ab’t 40 times before swallowing. Did they do that in Bible times? Does it have to be exactly 40 times?

They made a huge bowl to put in front of the Temple. It was 10 cubits (ab’t 15 feet) in diameter. Was it a perfect circle? Probably not. But, for the Bible critics the 10 cubits has to be an exact measurement and the bowl had to be a perfect circle in order for them to claim that the Bible writers thought PI=3. When you show them that they assumed that the measurements were exact, they assumed that the bowl was a perfect circle, they assumed that both measurements (the assumed outside dimension is 30 cubits) were on the same plane they very quickly change the subject–anything but admit they were wrong.

 

[djconklin]

The first place where the sabbath is mentioned in the Bible is found in Exodus 16:23.

This is before the commandment was given. Where’d it come from? Notice it is mentioned without any precursor as to why they should keep it and yet it is mentioned matter of factly. It didn’t need explanation because they already knew about it.

Again, I may have thrown you off by citing Matthew chapters 5-6. For clarification purposes, and for you to further review, it should be Matthew chapters 5-7…5, 6, and 7. My typo.

Try forgetting to type and instead try actually reading the chapters–that’s the 1st step in trying to determine the meaning of a passage. There’s no commandments being mentioned in chapter 7 either.

Are you saying that they were keeping the sabbath holy in complete accord with how God wanted them to keep the sabbath holy, and that there was conflict in that they were having problems with murdering and committing adultery??

If you had actually read the material you would have seen that the problem was they didn’t realize that the commandments was even about their thoughts. When Paul said he didn’t know what the law was all about till he saw the command “Thou shalt not covet” (Romans 7:7) was it because he had a problem with covetting? No, he saw that there was not act that one could do to break the Law.

yet there is still the lack of scriptural support.

Oh my word, we’re back to the misconception of Sola Scriptura! Of course, it apparently wouldn’t do too much good to point to the Bible anyway when its not being read, or even read carefully!

But then I should have gone easier on you since you are not a SDA…correct?

Well, Christians shouldn’t be treating each other so roughly to begin with, eh? Unfortunately, I’m used to the slings and arrows of outrageous misfortune from self-proclaimed Christians. Far too many claim the name, but don’t live it day-to-day.

 

[happilycatholic]

For petey’s sake, think it through!

You know you should wash your hands before you eat and after you’ve gone to the bathroom. Does it say that they did that in Bible times? Does that mean that they didn’t? Of course not.

You should chew your food ab’t 40 times before swallowing. Did they do that in Bible times? Does it have to be exactly 40 times?

They made a huge bowl to put in front of the Temple. It was 10 cubits (ab’t 15 feet) in diameter. Was it a perfect circle? Probably not. But, for the Bible critics the 10 cubits has to be an exact measurement and the bowl had to be a perfect circle in order for them to claim that the Bible writers thought PI=3. When you show them that they assumed that the measurements were exact, they assumed that the bowl was a perfect circle, they assumed that both measurements (the assumed outside dimension is 30 cubits) were on the same plane they very quickly change the subject–anything but admit they were wrong.

Yes, but methinks you use this argument to your convenience malady.

 

[happilycatholic]

It doesn’t matter how long we argue about days, dates, hours, moons, Sola Scriptura, Tradition and whatever else…

---

**There is no more implication of Christ The Redeemer in the Sabbath than there is mention of Sunday in the Commandment. There is no Redeemer in the Sabbath and there is no “Sunday” in the Sabbath. **

---

We have to read Christ The Redeemer into the Commandment because He’s not there AS THE REDEEMER. “It will be written on their hearts”. Either way, the Commandment was not meant for the Redeemer, but The Creator.

---

**SDAs: You can try to read Christ The Redeemer into the Sabbath all you want but the fact is God NEVER said to worship Christ His Son Resurrected on the Sabbath, let alone Saturday. You essentially changed the meaning of the Sabbath as much as the Catholic Church changed the meaning of the Commandment. **

---

This whole argument reminds me of Jesus and the Pharisees. He tried and tried to tell them they were making a mistake by being so rigid with all their laws. All the while they too thought they were honoring God by denying Christ. We know how that turned out.

---

There is no difference here. It’s just a bunch of hard-headed legalistic folks who’d rather follow some lay person’s interpretation of the Scripture rather than the Catholic Church’s interpretation.

---

This is not rocket science. It’s not math or even scholarly at all. It’s common sense and faith.

---

**I’m sorry but I’ll stick with the Pope on this one. **

 

[djconklin]

Yes, but methinks you use this argument to your convenience malady.

Others might, I never do. Never assume what others are, for it says more about you than them.

 

[djconklin]

Either way, the Commandment was not meant for the Redeemer, but The Creator.

Part of being redeemed from sin is to be cleansed from sin. The Bible says:

Exodus 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

We need to be redeemed because we have sinned, which is trangression of the Law. Part of that Law is to “Remember” the Sabbath day to keep it holy.

It’s just a bunch of hard-headed legalistic folks who’d rather follow some lay person’s interpretation of the Scripture rather than the Catholic Church’s interpretation.

Yes, I’m a hard-headed Irish-German. But, I am not and have never been a legalist and I have studied for the ministry and in doing so learned how to read the Bible in its original languages. Like the Bereans of old

Acts 17:11 These [the Bereans] were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

I study the Bible as carefully and prayfully as I know how. I trust the Holy Spirit to guide me as we are promised in Scripture:

1 Corinthians 2:13 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

This is not rocket science. It’s not math or even scholarly at all. It’s common sense and faith.

AMEN!

 

[happilycatholic]

Others might, I never do. Never assume what others are, for it says more about you than them.

Huh? How do you read the question of what a person is or is not into the statement?

Sounds like you’re asuming something, although I can’t figure out for the life of me what that might be.

Then again, maybe you are right.

 

[happilycatholic]

Part of being redeemed from sin is to be cleansed from sin. The Bible says:

Exodus 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

We need to be redeemed because we have sinned, which is trangression of the Law. Part of that Law is to “Remember” the Sabbath day to keep it holy.

Yes, I’m a hard-headed Irish-German. But, I am not and have never been a legalist and I have studied for the ministry and in doing so learned how to read the Bible in its original languages. Like the Bereans of old

Acts 17:11 These [the Bereans] were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

I study the Bible as carefully and prayfully as I know how. I trust the Holy Spirit to guide me as we are promised in Scripture:

1 Corinthians 2:13 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

AMEN!

I’m sorry, but what you’ve stated here doesn’t give you any Holy Divinity in matters of interpreting Scripture. That is left solely to the Catholic Church.

And yet with all your “knowledge” you still didn’t explain how God told us to worship Christ the Redeemer on the Sabbath.