Why is the Eastern Orthodox Church false?

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Ahh, but your example is disingenuous, Steve. The President can be overridden and even impeached by the Congress. In addition, the President doesn’t claim to technically be “nothing more” than a superpowered Senator. 😉
 
Ahh, but your example is disingenuous, Steve. The President can be overridden and even impeached by the Congress. In addition, the President doesn’t claim to technically be “nothing more” than a superpowered Senator. 😉
It wasn’t disingenuous as much as it was a bad example to begin with. 😉
 
Fair enough. 😃

As far as good examples, though, I think maybe you could view the Pope, from an Orthodox perspective, as Speaker of the House. Or maybe Vice-President. 😉
 
Hey everyone, I am reading these posts, I have been a bit busy so my replies are not as steady as they should be, but I will try to post more. I have been very interested seeing how this discussion has gone.

Steve,

I think it would be beneficial to restate the position and the implications I have drawn from it, perhaps in a more straightforward format. According to the New Advent website, regarding ecumenical councils:
  1. The right to summon an ecumenical council belongs properly to the pope alone, though by his express or presumed consent given ante or post factum, the summons may be issued, as in the case of most of the early councils, in the name of the civil authority. For ecumenicity in the adequate sense all the bishops of the world in communion with the Holy See should be summoned, but it is not required that all or even a majority should be present.
  1. As regards the conduct of the deliberations, the right of presidency, of course, belongs to the pope or his representative; while as regards the decisions arrived at unanimity is not required.
  1. Finally, papal approbation is required to give ecumenical value and authority to conciliar decrees, and this must be subsequent to conciliar action, unless the pope, by his personal presence and conscience, has already given his official ratification (for details see GENERAL COUNCILS).
I will now format my argument based on this information:

Premises:

**1)Only the Pope has the right to call an ecumenical council

2)Not all or even a majority of Bishops must come (vaguely any number of bishops)

3)Unanimity is not required (not even a majority is necessary in consideration of 4)

4)The ultimate decision belongs solely with the Pope, his ratification of the council is what determines its value.**

Conclusion:

**5) An ecumenical council consisting of 50 out of 1000 total Bishops, where only 1 (the Pope) agrees with the Papal position, is binding and ecumenical in the full sense of the word. (Given that the Pope had called the council and ratified it)
  1. This is essentially the same as Papal Infallibility.
  2. Papal Infallibility is far more efficient and the only reason I can see for holding an “ecumenical council” is perhaps to make other Bishops feel important, though it appears that their vote is ultimately worthless and only the Pope’s is meaningful.**
**The end. 😃 **

Okay, so it was a bit long, but at least it clearly shows the premises and the conclusion, point by point. Also, I think it is important that I never said that the RCC side is wrong on this issue, I only cannot see how an “ecumenical council” is of much value or how it differs from Papal Infallibility.
Steve B:
Without the popes approval, a council is just local, and not binding on the entire Church.
All fine and good (assuming the RCC side is correct) but it doesn’t really answer the question of why we should even have “ecumenical councils”.
Steve B:
I didn’t agree either.
Do you have a position on this? Does the RCC? If not I am going to have to maintain my former conclusion that an ecumenical council is a valueless institution at best.
Steve B:
The president of the U.S. doesn’t sign every bill the congress sends accross his desk…true? Does this make congress then without purpose?
I think Evlogitos post deals with this well enough, but it is worth pointing out that the President of the U.S. is not comparable to the Catholic perception of the Pope, perhaps he would be closer to the Orthodox perception though. I think a monarchial king is closer to the Pope (in secular terms), but often the Kind did not in fact have to answer to anyone.

God Bless (and thanks everyone for all of your posts, very interesting),

John
 
Steve,

I think it would be beneficial to restate the position and the implications I have drawn from it, perhaps in a more straightforward format. According to the New Advent website, regarding ecumenical councils:

I will now format my argument based on this information:

Premises:

1)Only the Pope has the right to call an ecumenical council

2)Not all or even a majority of Bishops must come (vaguely any number of bishops)

3)Unanimity is not required (not even a majority is necessary in consideration of 4)

4)The ultimate decision belongs solely with the Pope, his ratification of the council is what determines its value.

Conclusion:

5) An ecumenical council consisting of 50 out of 1000 total Bishops, where only 1 (the Pope) agrees with the Papal position, is binding and ecumenical in the full sense of the word. (Given that the Pope had called the council and ratified it)

6) This is essentially the same as Papal Infallibility.

7) Papal Infallibility is far more efficient and the only reason I can see for holding an “ecumenical council” is perhaps to make other Bishops feel important, though it appears that their vote is ultimately worthless and only the Pope’s is meaningful.


**The end. 😃 **
Let’s look at the quote you gave. I have a different interpretation than the one you gave

(all emphasis, and commentary [in blue] mine)
:
  1. The right to summon an ecumenical council belongs properly to the pope alone, *though by his express or presumed consent given ante or post factum, the summons may be issued, as in the case of most of the early councils, in the name of the civil authority. **For ecumenicity in the adequate sense all the bishops of the world in communion with the Holy See should be summoned, but it is not required that all or even a majority should be present.
comment:
(* that only the pope can call an ecumenical council has some flexibility in the description… true? )

(** being summoned is a requirement, while presence isn’t. That seems adequate to me just as the statement is written. Just because a bishop is not present, doesn’t mean his opinion is not taken into account.
  1. As regards the conduct of the deliberations, the right of presidency, of course, belongs to the pope or his representative; while as regards the decisions arrived at unanimity is not required. (The pope has line item veto 🙂 )
  2. Finally, papal approbation is required to give ecumenical value and authority to conciliar decrees, (otherwise a decision by a council is just local in scope, not binding on the entire Church) and this must be subsequent to conciliar action, unless the pope, by his personal presence and conscience, has already given his official ratification (for details see GENERAL COUNCILS).
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John:
I think it is important that I never said that the RCC side is wrong on this issue, I only cannot see how an “ecumenical council” is of much value or how it differs from Papal Infallibility.
See if this captures what I think you’re having a problem with. We have 2 types of bind and loose

  1. *]A pope has the power to bind universaly what the council binds and looses universally what the council looses
    *]A pope can also bind what they loose and loose what they bind…universally.
    I’m thinking you don’t have problems with #1 bind and loose. So to comment on your point, it’s not really the value of the council that is in question, but rather what is the value of the pope if he can only rubber stamp a council?

    It seems to me your problem is really with the second bind and loose. THAT’s the other aspect of bind and loose, that Jesus gave to Peter. This is the one being denied by all opponants of the papacy.
 
Actually,

Under the Cyprianic view, (strictly speaking) the Orthodox have no valid orders today unless they all got rebaptized. All their sees were at one time in heresy, and sometimes all of them at the same time. That means no heretic could validly administer a sacrament. Therefore, Cyprian would have required all of them to be rebaptized before they could administer valid sacraments.

Rebaptism as you know is where Pope Stephen said Cyprian tangled around the axle…
WOW!!! Good point! Only the Catholic view safegaurds the validity of Eastern Orthodox sacraments!!!
 
East and West:
WOW!!! Good point! Only the Catholic view safegaurds the validity of Eastern Orthodox sacraments!!!
The view of the RCC safeguards all and everybody(universalism). Tthat is one of the things that we contend with the RCC that they changed all things to fit all people where the opposite should be applied ( all should change to fit what the Church is teaching).
under the RCC view, Orthodox, Catholics and “ALL HERETICS” are "safeguarded “.and not to mention also that the RCC allows even a non christian ( Jew a Muslim or even a buddhist) to perform the “sacrament” of baptism. ccc 1256.”… in case of necessity, anyone, even a non-baptized person, with the required intention, can baptize.
Now the question should be does the E.C. safeguard the RCC with her claims and her post schism canons in particular those of V.I and V.II ???
First we must understand that the Cyprianic View of the baptism is not the Norm. for the Orthodox nor the RCs view is, neither the view of Pope Stephen I is.
If we read we find out that the Cyprianic view of baptism was not as rigid as it may sounds at least here on this forum:

"… Eastern canonists treat the decisions of the Carthage councils critically. Zonaras commenting on Canon 7 of the Second Ecumenical Council, which calls for the reception of certain kinds of heretics without re-baptism, notes the decree of St. Cyprian, about which he says:
“Thus, the opinions of the Fathers gathered at the council with the great Cyprian do not refer to all heretics and all schismatics. Because the Second Ecumenical Council, as we just pointed out, makes an exception for certain heretics and grants its sanction for their reception without repeating the baptism, demanding only their anointing with the Holy Chrism provided that they renounced their own heresies and all other heresies.”

Again "… According to the general direction of Canon 7 of the Second Ecumenical Council we see that there developed three orders in the Church for the reception of heretics (and schismatics) into Orthodoxy. The Kormchaya Kniga [Rudder] contains the letter of Timothy, presbyter of Constantinople who lived in the 5th century wherein he writes the following:
“There are three rites for accepting those coming to the Holy Divine, “catholic” and Apostolic Church: the first rite demands holy baptism, the second one — we do not baptize but anoint with the Holy Chrism and the third — we neither baptize nor anoint but demand the renunciation of their own and all other heresy.”[30]
So to go back to where this whole thing started in my discussion with steve, we see clearly that it was not Pope Stephen I view that it prevailed (strictly speaking) nor the Cyprianic way, (again, Strictly speaking)
Also the 95 canon of the sixth E.C. “… Arians and Macedonians and Novatians, who called themselves Cathari and Aristeri, and the Tessarakaidekatitae, or, at any rate, those called Tetradites and Apolinarists, we accept, when they give us certificates (called libelli); and when they anathematize every heresy that does not believe as the holy “catholic” and Apostolic Church of God believes, and are sealed, i.e., are anointed first with holy myron on the forehead and the eyes, and the nose and mouth, and the ears, while we are anointing them and sealing them we say, “A seal of a gift of Holy Spirit.” “…” As concerning Paulianists who have afterwards taken refuge in the Catholic Church, a definition has been promulgated that they have to be rebaptized without fail. As for Eunomians, …” and the list goes on I just wish that I have the time to list all of them( the canons and the commentary that it goes along with them)
So as you see it is not as you wish it to be nor you can make a proof of Papal Authority out of it ( to go back to our original discussion) The Orthodox Church is not a legalistic Church, we take every case individually and we look at things in depth and under the Mercy of GOD.
 
  1. If your Church (RCC) recognize the See of Constantinople as an Apostolic See in which it was founded by Saint Andrew,
But it wasn’t founded by Andrew,and the Catholic Church doesn’t recognize that. If the clergy of Constantinople had really believed that,they would have used it as a reason for giving C. primacy in the East,not that C. was the new royal city.

( should I remind you that now it is the customs that your Pope would go to Constntinople to commemorate the Feast of Saint Andrew since he is recognized by your Church as the founder of that See) then your claim is outside your Church and any Apostolic Church the least to say to this matter, therfor it is NOT VALID.

The pope doesn’t commemorate the Feast of St. Andrew for the reason you claim. St. Andrew is the patron saint of the Greeks.
  1. It is clear from reading the canons ( the sixth canon of the first E.C.) and then the (third canon of the second E.C.) that Constantinople did not try to usurp the Apostolic authority of Rome, Alexandria or Antioch,
That’s not what Pope Leo thought. He saw it as an attempt at usurpation of the traditional rights of Alexandria and Antioch. And it was also an attempt an infringement upon the jurisdiction that Rome had over the East.

in particular in the 6th canon of the 1st E.C where it defines where every See’s Authority is and then later on in other canons where it defines where the Authority of the See of Constantinople is, and then if you read the “2nd canon of the 2nd E.C.” this will put your claim about Constantinople trying to usurp Authority “out of commission” >>>…“Second canon of the second Ecumenical council: 2) Bishops must not leave their own diocese and go over to churches beyond its boundaries…”

now remember that this E.C. was summened in Constantinople and was presided over by the Patraicrh of Antioch (Meletios) and then was presided over by the Patraiarch of Constantinople ( saint Gregory the theologian) when the first had passed away during this Council.
3) And last, It is abvious if one would only pay heed to what had been written in this topic it would become so abvious who is trying to usurp the apostolic authority of the Other Sees.

That would be Constantinople.

Pope Leo,Letter civ.

III. "The City of Constantinople, royal though it be, can never be raised to Apostolic rank.

Let the city of Constantinople have, as we desire, its high rank, and under the protection of God’s right hand, long enjoy your clemency’s rule. Yet things secular stand on a different basis from things divine: and there can be no sure building save on that rock which the Lord has laid for a foundation. He that covets what is not his due, loses what is his own. Let it be enough for Anatolius that by the aid of your piety and by my favour and approval he has obtained the bishopric of so great a city. Let him not disdain a city which is royal, though he cannot make it an Apostolic See[3]; and let him on no account hope that he can rise by doing injury to others. For the privileges of the churches determined by the canons of the holy Fathers, and fixed by the decrees of the Nicene Synod, cannot be overthrown by any unscrupulous act, nor disturbed by any innovation. And in the faithful execution of this task by the aid of Christ I am bound to display an unflinching devotion; for it is a charge entrusted to me, and it tends to my condemnation if the rules sanctioned by the Fathers and drawn up under the guidance of God’s Spirit at the Synod of Nicaea for the government of the whole Church are violated with my connivance (which God forbid), and if the wishes of a single brother have more weight with me than the common good of the Lord’s whole house."

The 28th canon of the fourth E.C. also was objected by Leo yet the Council remained Ecumenical.

The council became ecumenical because Pope Leo validated it.

Well all I can say is that thanks for bringing this one up, if you read the Bold enlarged text above wouldnt that proof that the core of our debate wich is Primacy of Authority for the Pope of Rome is nothing but a “naked claim” or at least that the East saw only Primacy of honor in the western Patriarch( the Pope), Note the words "Dignity of headship “AMONG” the Apostles.
You didnt see this one , did ya?

The word “among” doesn’t undermine the word “headship”. Peter’s “dignity of headship among the apostles” means primacy of authority,not some vague,empty “primacy of honor” or “first among equals”. Canon 3 of Constantinople 1 and canon 28 of Chalcedon attributed certain “privileges of honor” to Rome,not “primacy of honor”. These privileges of honor had to do with ecclesiastical jurisdiction over the East.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=208250
 
Hey Steve,

Nice to hear from you again, and thanks for the response.
Steve B:
See if this captures what I think you’re having a problem with. We have 2 types of bind and loose
A pope has the power to bind universaly what the council binds and looses universally what the council looses
A pope can also bind what they loose and loose what they bind…universally.
I’m thinking you don’t have problems with #1 bind and loose. So to comment on your point, it’s not really the value of the council that is in question, but rather what is the value of the pope if he can only rubber stamp a council? It seems to me your problem is really with the second bind and loose. THAT’s the other aspect of bind and loose, that Jesus gave to Peter. This is the one being denied by all opponants of the papacy.
My main problem is the value of an ecumenical council. For instance, perhaps there is held a council, and there are 400 bishops present, 250 decide one way and 150 vote another way. They appeal to the Pope, and the Pope chooses the 150 vote side.

Now what was the point of voting and discussing? It would be like the Americans voting for a President, and the vast majority vote one way, but then the Congress (or some other body) overrules their votes and sides with the minority. Was there really a point in voting? Suppose that it is always up to the congress. Then all votes would be virtually meaningless, because it simply doesn’t matter.

What I want you to do, is show me the value of an Ecumenical council, coming from a RCC view.

For the EO,

It isn’t much easier for the Orthodox, as I find one of the most difficult aspects of the Eastern Orthodox side is defining exactly what is an ecumenical council and when is it official. The Robber Council and Iconoclast Councils come to mind. So the question would be, “Is there any real way to know when a council is binding?” (This has been dealt with briefly before, but I am not sure how definitive the answer was, and I think people still have questions about this)
 
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anthony022071:
But it wasn’t founded by Andrew,and the Catholic Church doesn’t recognize that.
very well, then, what are the evidence that you can put forth to back up your claim and give it some value?
However I claimed that Saint Andrew “the first of the called” is the founder of the Church of Constantinople(Byzantium) and the evidence of my claim are not my words but they are right out of the mouth of your Pope.>>>Pope’s Speech Feast of St Andrew

(30 Nov 2006 RV) Pope Benedict XVI’s speech in the Patriarchal Cathedral of St George Istanbul, on the feast of St Andrew: Today, in this Patriarchal Church of Saint George, we are able to experience once again the communion and call of the two brothers, Simon Peter and Andrew, in the meeting of the Successor of Peter and his Brother in the episcopal ministry, the head of this Church traditionally founded by the Apostle Andrew. Our fraternal encounter highlights the special relationship uniting the Churches of Rome and Constantinople as Sister Churches.radiovaticana.org/en1/Articolo.asp?c=106196
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anthony022071:
If the clergy of Constantinople had really believed that,**they would have **used it as a reason for giving C. primacy in the East,not that C. was the new royal city]
have you noticed your assumptions in your writting, this has no value ! I have been giving a written facts, Canons, E.Councils, Historical Letters etc etc etc…can you give value to your claims, Opinions reflects what you think and not what had happened, assumption=theory=Something taken for granted or accepted as true without proof; a supposition.
but for the above statement I am going to disregard it as mistyping. there are 10s of links to refute this. in which many are catholics links, I encourage you to look at some of them.
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anthony022071:
The pope doesn’t commemorate the Feast of St. Andrew for the reason you claim. St. Andrew is the patron saint of the Greeks.
Lets look at some more facts other then what I have written above,
"…St. Andrew’s cross came to be described as X-shaped. Both Catholic and Orthodox churches recognize St. Andrew’s feast day (the traditional day of his martyrdom) on November 30."religionfacts.com/christianity/holidays/st_andrews_day.htm
1000s of evidences show that Saint Andrew is the Patron of the Scotts too>>> "…The flag of Scotland is the Cross of St. Andrew. St Andrew, the brother of Simon Peter, … St Peter’s Day (Catholic Church in England and Wales) …http://celticcountries.com/webmagazine/traditions/andrew-patron-saint-of-scotland/
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anthony022071:
That’s not what Pope Leo. thought…
Pope Leo thought wrong then, relating his thoughts to the least to mention here the 1st and the 2nd E.Councils canons, Also Pope Leo misquoted many things wrong . hopefully later on will mention them all.
QUOTE]
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anthony022071:
…He saw it as an attempt at usurpation of the traditional rights of Alexandria and Antioch. And it was also an attempt an infringement upon the jurisdiction that Rome had over the East.
???..PLEASE read the SIXTH canon of the FIRST E.Council. that canon it makes it clearer than I could put it in words, unless you believe that, Canons and that council dont aplly to you and/or to your church. then why should we exhaust the words
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anthony022071:
The word “among” doesn’t undermine the word “headship”. Peter’s “dignity of headship among the apostles” means primacy of authority,not some vague,empty “primacy of honor” or “first among equals”. Canon 3 of Constantinople 1 and canon 28 of Chalcedon attributed certain “privileges of honor” to Rome,not “primacy of honor”. These privileges of honor had to do with ecclesiastical jurisdiction over the East.
IT is the word “Dignity of headship” that it doesnt undermine the word"AMONG" for it is abvious if he was over the Apostles then the word should have been “OVER” and NOT “AMONG”
besides, Dogmaticly the “HEADSHIP” of yours has no biblical evidence but on the contrary it contradict the Bible>>>
The Head is Christ, from Whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, …(Eph. 4:16)
Again >>>…Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.
 
Quickly (more finals coming up!):
It isn’t much easier for the Orthodox, as I find one of the most difficult aspects of the Eastern Orthodox side is defining exactly what is an ecumenical council and when is it official. The Robber Council and Iconoclast Councils come to mind. So the question would be, “Is there any real way to know when a council is binding?” (This has been dealt with briefly before, but I am not sure how definitive the answer was, and I think people still have questions about this)
The problem comes in defining what is meant by “ecumenical.” Strictly speaking an ecumenical council is one convoked by the Roman Emperor, calling bishops from across the oikomene (that is, the empire) to settle matters of doctrine. Of course, usually what we mean by “ecumenical councils” is in fact universal councils, councils whose authority is received by the whole Church, whether or not they are ecumenical in the strict sense. The best example of a universal council is the Council of Jerusalem in the first century. Clearly, the Fathers did not regard it as technically “ecumenical” (otherwise, Nicea I would not have been called the First Ecumenical Council), but it was nevertheless a universal and authoritative council of the Church.

Thus, the criteria for a council of universal authority within the Church are basically fivefold. It is important to note that they operate on a sliding scale. The more you have of one, the less you need another. For example, if you have no representation by the Pentarchy, but everyone in the Pentarchy signs off on the acts of the council right away, then the argument for universality balances out. There are no rigid points at which “enough” and “not enough” are delineated; in Orthodoxy, we don’t draw such strict bounds, for the sake of divine economy. Our guide, the Holy Spirit, doesn’t always work according to the expectations of man, so we must stay sufficiently flexible to permit and recognize His leading.

So without further ado:

1. Historical continuity with the established Tradition. For example, Irenaeus and Athanasius made expert demonstrations against the heretics that their doctrines were innovations against what was already the received Truth. This is obviously the most important criterion, but can at times be the hardest to measure, since sometimes history is arguable either way.

For example, however, this is bar none the reason why the “compromise formulae” with the Monothelites, et al., were roundly rejected. Whether you believed Orthodoxy or Monothelitism to reflect the Tradition best, a compromise formula was clearly a departure from either line of thought, in an attempt for political compromise.

This is the most absolute factor. If it doesn’t square, it doesn’t square. Doctrine is to be clarified and described, not logically extrapolated out of thin air.

2. The making of dogmatic descriptions. This particularly applies to Triadology and Christology, into which fit virtually all of the universal councils of the Orthodox Church. If the council merely or primarily deals with strictly disciplinary, jurisdictional, or otherwise bureaucratic matters, chances are stronger that it’s not a beacon and pillar of the Church to be set down for all time.

3. Representation of and/or ratification by the Church hierarchy on a global scale; particularly by the oldest and/or most important Apostolic sees. Generally speaking, this means the Pentarchy must represent and/or ratify (though arguably the bishop of Ephesus would have a strong say in the matter because of his ancient see, and in modern days presumably Moscow’s voice would bear great weight).

4. Reception by the laity. Although they aren’t directly involved in the decision-making process, the laity make up the majority of the Body of Christ which is the Church, and as such, their consensus is of importance. They have as much duty to preserve the Faith and resist heresy as do their hierarchs. See, for example, Maximus the Confessor stood virtually alone against heresy at one point (even defying the communion of the bishop of Rome), refusing to give in even though he was not even ordained to the order of clergy.

5. Confirmation by subsequent and legitimate council. Generally, one does not immediately see formal recognition of the universality of a given council (although its authority may well be immediately de facto universal). For example, even a century after the Seventh Ecumenical Council, one only finds mention of six ecumenical synods in the various official documents, although all men of orthodox faith obviously accepted its conclusions with regard to the holy icons. It was not until the era of the Photian councils that one began to see official confirmation of the Seventh Council as a universal and binding holy synod.

With faithful and consistent application of each of these principles, one can start in 325 A.D., end in the present, and have a pretty good idea of which councils are universally authoritative in the Orthodox Church.
 
very well, then, what are the evidence that you can put forth to back up your claim and give it some value?
However I claimed that Saint Andrew “the first of the called” is the founder of the Church of Constantinople(Byzantium) and the evidence of my claim are not my words but they are right out of the mouth of your Pope.>>>Pope’s Speech Feast of St Andrew
The idea that the Church of Constantinople was “traditionally founded” by Andrew is a Byzantine tradition,not a Catholic tradition. The pope knows his Catholic Church history well,and I really doubt that he personally regards the Church of Constantinople as having been founded by Andrew.

newadvent.org/cathen/04301a.htm

< Traces of Christianity do not appear here before the end of the second or the beginning of the third century. In 212 Tertullian commemorates the joy of the Christians at the defeat of Pescennius Niger (“Ad Scapulam”, iii: “Cæcilius Capella in illo exitu Byzantino: Christiani gaudete”). About 190, an Antitrinitarian heretic, Theodotus the Currier, a native of Byzantium, was expelled from the Roman Church ("Phiosophoumena, VIII, xxxv; St. Epiphanius, “Adv. Hær.,” liv). A probably reliable tradition makes the Byzantine Church a suffragan of Heraclea in Thrace at the beginning of the third century. In the fifth century we meet with a spurious document attributed to a certain Dorotheus, Bishop of Tyre at the end of the third century, according to which the Church of Byzantium was founded by the Apostle St. Andrew, its first bishop being his disciple Stachys (cf. Romans 16:9). The intention of the forger is plain: in this way the Church of Rome is made inferior to that of Constantinople, St. Andrew having been chosen an Apostle by Jesus before his brother St. Peter, the founder of the Roman Church.

The first historically known Bishop of Byzantium is St. Metrophanes (306-314), though the see had perhaps been occupied during the third century. >
 
have you noticed your assumptions in your writting, this has no value ! I have been giving a written facts, Canons, E.Councils, Historical Letters etc etc etc…

So have I.

can you give value to your claims, Opinions reflects what you think and not what had happened, assumption=theory=Something taken for granted or accepted as true without proof; a supposition.
but for the above statement I am going to disregard it as mistyping. there are 10s of links to refute this. in which many are catholics links, I encourage you to look at some of them.

How many Church Fathers can you name that mention St. Andrew as the founder of the see of Constantinople?
How come it was not considered an apostolic see like Rome,Alexandria and Antioch?

Decree of Damasus no.3 (382):

“Although all the catholic churches spread abroad throughout the world comprise but one Bridal Chamber of Christ, nevertheless, the holy Roman church has been placed at the forefront, not by the councilor decisions of the churches, but has received the primacy by the evangelic voice of our Lord and Savior, Who says: “You are Peter …(Matt 16:18-19).” In addition to this, there is also the companionship of the vessel of election, the most blessed Apostle Paul who, along with Peter in the city of Rome in the time of Caesar Nero, equally consecrated the above-mentioned holy Roman church to Christ the Lord; and by their own presence and by their venerable triumph, they set it at the forefront over the others of all the cities of the world. The first see, therefore, is that of Peter the Apostle, that of the Roman church, which has neither stain nor blemish, nor anything like that. The second see is that of Alexandria, consecrated on behalf of the blessed Peter by Mark, his disciple and an Evangelist, who was sent to Egypt by the Apostle Peter, where he preached the word of truth and finished his glorious martyrdom. The third see is that of Antioch, which belonged to the most blessed Peter, where first he dwelled before he came to Rome, and where the name ‘Christians’ was first applied, as to a new people.”

Pope Leo thought wrong then, relating his thoughts to the least to mention here the 1st and the 2nd E.Councils canons,

I’ll go with Pope Leo’s understanding. The clergy of Constantinople didn’t openly contradict him anyway.

???..PLEASE read the SIXTH canon of the FIRST E.Council. that canon it makes it clearer than I could put it in words, unless you believe that, Canons and that council dont aplly to you and/or to your church. then why should we exhaust the words

The sixth canon of Nicaea shows that the practices of Rome were normative for the other churches. It doesn’t suggest that the regional churches were autocephalous.

IT is the word “Dignity of headship” that it doesnt undermine the word"AMONG" for it is abvious if he was over the Apostles then the word should have been “OVER” and NOT “AMONG”

“Blessed art thou among women”

besides, Dogmaticly the “HEADSHIP” of yours has no biblical evidence but on the contrary it contradict the Bible>>>
The Head is Christ, from Whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, …(Eph. 4:16)
Again >>>…Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.

Opatatus (c. 367 A.D.):
“In the city of Rome the Episcopal chair was given first to Peter, the chair in which Peter sat, the same who was head — that is why he is also called Cephas [Rock] — of all the Apostles, the one chair in which unity is maintained by all. Neither do the Apostles proceed individually on their own, and anyone who would presume to set up another chair in opposition to that single chair would, by that very fact, be a schismatic and a sinner… Recall then the origins of your chair, those of you who wish to claim for yourselves the title of holy Church.”
(Opatatus, The Schism of the Donatists, 2:2)

St. Gregory of Nyssa (371 A.D.):
“The memory of Peter, the Head of the Apostles, is celebrated; and magnified indeed with him are the other members of the Church; but [upon him] is the Church of God firmly established. For he is, agreeably to the gift conferred upon him by the Lord, that unbroken and most firm Rock upon which the Lord built His Church.”
(Alt. Or. De S. Steph. Galland. t. vi.)

St. Macarius of Egypt (371 A.D.):
“Moses was succeeded by Peter, who had committed to his hands the new Church of Christ, and the true priesthood.”
(Macarius, Hom. xxvi. n. 23, p. 101)

St. John Chrysostom, Patriarch of Constantinople (c. A.D. 387):
“[Peter], the foundation of the Church, the Coryphaeus of the choir of the Apostles, the vehement lover of Christ …he who ran throughout the whole world, who fished the whole world; this holy Coryphaeus of the blessed choir; the ardent disciple, who was entrusted with the keys of heaven, who received the spiritual revelation. Peter, the mouth of all Apostles, the head of that company, the ruler of the whole world.”
(De Eleemos, iii. 4; Hom. de decem mille tal. 3)

Philip at the Council of Ephesus, Session III (A.D. 431):
“There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the Apostles, pillar of faith, and foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Savior and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: who down even to to-day and forever, lives and judges in his successors. The holy and most blessed Pope Celestine, according to due order, is his successor and holds his place…”
(NPNF, XIV:223)
 
Hey Steve,

Nice to hear from you again, and thanks for the response.

My main problem is the value of an ecumenical council. For instance, perhaps there is held a council, and there are 400 bishops present, 250 decide one way and 150 vote another way. They appeal to the Pope, and the Pope chooses the 150 vote side.

Now what was the point of voting and discussing? It would be like the Americans voting for a President, and the vast majority vote one way, but then the Congress (or some other body) overrules their votes and sides with the minority. Was there really a point in voting? Suppose that it is always up to the congress. Then all votes would be virtually meaningless, because it simply doesn’t matter.
Are you thinking of any specific real life examples?
 
Hey Steve,
Steve B:
Are you thinking of any specific real life examples?
This is irrelevant, my knowledge of the voting patterns and assent of the Pope on councils is a little lacking, but it only matters whether my assertion was correct or not.

For instance,
  1. The Pope always sides with the majority (the majority control the Pope’s decisions, but I believe history says otherwise)
  2. The Pope always decides what is right doctrine (the majority is irrelevant)
  3. The Pope is subject to the limits of other Patriarchs, but he has higher honor. (The Pope is only a distinguished part of the whole)
  4. Both the Pope and the majority are irrelevant. (Protestantism)
I can think of no other alternatives to these four positions. If you can I would be very appreciative.

God Bless,

John
 
Hey Steve,

This is irrelevant,
John,

It’s not irrelevant.

We have 2000 years of the papacy. There is no reason to hypothesize about questions beginning with
:
perhaps there is held a council,… It would be like the Americans voting for a President,… Suppose that it is always…
That’s why I’m asking you for specific examples.
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John:
my knowledge of the voting patterns and assent of the Pope on councils is a little lacking,
This is why I’m asking you not to speculate.
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John:
but it only matters whether my assertion was correct or not.
You can’t assert properly or accurately if as you say your knowledge of voting patterns of popes in council is lacking.
 
If your principle of authority fails a reductio ad absurdum, why should it be considered logical? I’m not at all sure such a request is unreasonable, particularly given the stranger-than-fiction vagaries so common in Church history.

All John is asking is where your formal principle of authority lies. Go on, man up and answer the question. Of course, I could answer for you–Catholic dogma is that the Pope, ex cathedra, is correct even if the entirety of the Church is against him, and therefore, majority and consensus are entirely irrelevant except for reasons of economy and unity–but I think John would rather hear that come out of a Roman Catholic mouth.
 
All John is asking is where your formal principle of authority lies.
the papacy has been here for the last 2000 years. There is no need to go into hypotheticals
Evlo:
Go on, man up and answer the question. Of course, I could answer for you–Catholic dogma is that the Pope, ex cathedra, is correct even if the entirety of the Church is against him,
You’re obviously having a bad day.
Evlo:
and therefore, majority and consensus are entirely irrelevant except for reasons of economy and unity–but I think John would rather hear that come out of a Roman Catholic mouth.
Now I know you’re having a bad day
 
…Continue

Now compare the above with the following:
Pope Gregory the GREAT (note, only 2 popes were called the Great and Damasus was not of them).

St Gregory , Pope of Rome, Epistle XL, To Eulogius of Alexandria: **Your most sweet Holiness **has spoken much in your letter to me about the chair of Saint Peter, Prince of the apostles, saying that he himself now sits on it in the persons of his successors. And indeed I acknowledge myself to be unworthy, not only in the dignity of such as preside, but even in the number of such as stand. But I gladly accepted all that has been said, in that he has spoken to me about Peter’s chair who occupies Peter’s chair. …And to him it is said by the voice of the Truth, To thee I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven (Matth. xvi. 19). And again it is said to him, And when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren (xxii. 32). And once more, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou Me? Feed my sheep (Joh. xxi. 17). Wherefore though there are many apostles, yet with regard to the principality itself the See of the Prince of the apostles alone has grown strong in authority, which in three places is the See of one. For he himself exalted the See in which he “deigned” even to rest and end the present life(Rome). He himself adorned the See to which he sent his disciple as evangelist(Alexandria). He himself “established” the See in which, though he was to leave it, he sat for seven years(Antioch). Since then it is the See of one, and one See, over which by Divine authority three bishops now preside…
I’ll go with Pope Leo’s understanding
Abvious.
The clergy of Constantinople didn’t openly contradict him anyway.
…Or one might say that they ignored him or they tried to preserve the Peace in the Church.
The sixth canon of Nicaea shows that the practices of Rome were normative for the other churches. It doesn’t suggest that the regional churches were autocephalous.
Where you are getting your conclusions from? Show me where does it say so???
Here is what it says:
Ancient Epitome of Canon VI.
Sixth(6) canon of the first Ecumenical council: The Bishop of Alexandria shall have **jurisdiction over **Egypt, Libya, and Pentapolis. As also the Roman bishop over those subject to Rome. So, too, the **Bishop of Antioch and the rest over **those who are under them…
Now off to the interpretation before you rely on yourself for this:
Interpretation.[6]
The present Canon ordains that the old customs of the three Patriarchs are to be kept in vogue, chiefly and mainly as regarding the Patriarch of Alexandria, and secondly as regarding the Patriarch of Antioch, and the Patriarch of Rome, succinctly and comprehensively. (Concerning the Patriarch of Jerusalem the present Council devote special and separate treatment in its c. VII; and concerning the Patriarch of Constantinople the Second Council set forth its views in its c. III). So that the Patriarch (whom it calls a Bishop here, owing to the fact that it had not yet become customary to designate one by calling him the Patriarch[7]) of Alexandria came to have authority over all the bishops and metropolitans in Egypt and Libya and Pentapolis. In fact, the same custom also came to prevail with regard **the Patriarch of Rome[8] in that he was allowed **to have authority and presidency over all the **occidental **occidental bishops and metropolitans. Likewise the Patriarch of Antioch is given authority over the bishops and metropolitans of Syria, of Middle Syria, of each of the two regions called Cilicia, of Mesopotamia, and of all the other dioceses subject to his jurisdiction. The present Canon, in fact, commands that not only the privileges of these Patriarchs are to be preserved, but even the privileges of other provinces and churches that are subject to the metropolitans…
“Blessed art thou among women”
Yes I still see the word “AMONG” and the THEOTOKOS never ceased to be a women or human being …Is the word “AMONG” Has the same meaning as “ABOVE”?
Opatatus (c. 367 A.D.):
"In the city of Rome the Episcopal chair was given first to Peter
Was given to Peter??? Boy you got yourself in trouble now with this one, see this is the result when you copy and paste without researching, and since you mentioned this one, it brings to my mind what Eusebius meant when he said in “The First Ruler of the Church of Rome” ” …”After the martyrdom of Paul and of Peter, Linus Was the first to obtain the episcopate of the church at Rome. Paul mentions him…” I thought he was Ordained by Peter and not obtained it after Peter and Paul death? I am just wondering about this.hhhmmm.
 
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anthony:
The idea that the Church of Constantinople was “traditionally founded” by Andrew is a Byzantine tradition,not a Catholic tradition. The pope knows his Catholic Church history well,and I really doubt that he personally regards the Church of Constantinople as having been founded by Andrew
Was that a wish? Or you are in the state of denial after a shock? Infallibility of your own?…” I really doubt that he personally regards the Church of Constantinople as…” you said…Opinion? Again …I gave you fact from the “VATICAN RADIO” “The VOICE OF THE POPE AND THE CHURCH IN DIALOGUE WITH THE WORLD…”…??? This Vatican Radio Station Published your Pope’s Speech to the whole world !!!
Anthony !!! you would have been much better off with no response rather than the above reply.

anthony said:
< Traces of Christianity do not appear here before the end of the second or the beginning of the third century. In 212 Tertullian commemorates the joy of the Christians at the defeat of Pescennius Niger (“Ad Scapulam”, iii: “Cæcilius Capella in illo exitu Byzantino: Christiani gaudete”). About 190, an Antitrinitarian heretic, Theodotus the Currier, a native of Byzantium, was expelled from the Roman Church ("Phiosophoumena, VIII, xxxv; St. Epiphanius, “Adv. Hær.,” liv). A probably reliable tradition makes the Byzantine Church a suffragan of Heraclea in Thrace at the beginning of the third century. In the fifth century we meet with a spurious document attributed to a certain Dorotheus, Bishop of Tyre at the end of the third century, according to which the Church of Byzantium was founded by the Apostle St. Andrew, its first bishop being his disciple Stachys (cf. Romans 16:9). The intention of the forger is plain: in this way the Church of Rome is made inferior to that of Constantinople, St. Andrew having been chosen an Apostle by Jesus before his brother St. Peter, the founder of the Roman Church.

The first historically known Bishop of Byzantium is St. Metrophanes (306-314), though the see had perhaps been occupied during the third century. >

Now you are refuting your Pope, I will not answer to this since the argument now is between you and your Pope
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anthony:
How many Church Fathers can you name that mention St. Andrew as the founder of the see of Constantinople?
Are you kidding me??? I gave you the words of the most reliable man in your church(a church father of your church) that it was published by the most reliable source in your church and you still didnt accepted it, I do not, rather I am Positive that even then you are not going to be convenced, besides that is a tradition"t" you must be fimiliar with this as a RC, can you mention to me all the Churches that Saint Andrew or any apostle established, it certain that the Apostles roamed all over Asia Minor and they established many Churches their.
anthony said:
How come it was not considered an apostolic see like Rome,Alexandria and Antioch?
(30 Nov 2006 RV) Pope Benedict XVI’s speech …In the meeting of the Successor of Peter and his Brother in the episcopal ministry, the head of this Church traditionally founded by the Apostle Andrew.
with the permition of the RCs I will use one of their favorite Quote: “ Rome has spoken, now the case is closed anthony
Decree of Damasus no.3 (382):
"Although all the catholic churches spread abroad throughout the world ****comprise but one ****
Bridal Chamber of Christ, nevertheless, the holy Roman church has been placed at the forefront

Or If I want to put the above statement in short, it would be the “1st among equals” …ok with this so far
…not by the councilor decisions of the churches…
Canons of the E.Councils show otherwise. as I have presented in prior reply
but has received the primacy by the evangelic voice of our Lord and Savior, Who says: "You are Peter …(Matt 16:18-19).
I say Amen to what the LORD said, but you, your church, as your Pope Damasus (known to historians as the first pope to make such claim) failed to show where did the LORD said to pass this ONLY to the Bishop of Rome.
…" In addition to this, there is also the companionship of the vessel of election, the most blessed Apostle Paul who, along with Peter in the city of Rome in the time of Caesar Nero, equally consecrated the above-mentioned holy Roman church to Christ the Lord; and by their own presence and by their venerable triumph.
So did they with Antioch way before Rome. My evidence to that is the book of acts I will not bother posting it since it is beyond doubt for all Christians and to save some time and typing, if need to then I will. But No mention of Peter being the bishop there?
they set it at the **forefront over the others **
of all the cities of the world. The first see, therefore, is that of Peter the Apostle, that of the Roman church, which has neither stain nor blemish, nor anything like that. The second see is that of Alexandria, consecrated on behalf of the blessed Peter by Mark, his disciple and an Evangelist, who was sent to Egypt by the Apostle Peter, where he preached the word of truth and finished his glorious martyrdom. The third see is that of Antioch, which belonged to the most blessed Peter, where first he dwelled before he came to Rome, and where the name ‘Christians’ was first applied, as to a new people."

continue…sorry, this post should have been first, I thought it went through
 
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