Why is the Eastern Orthodox Church false?

[Mickey]

'I alone, despite my unworthiness, am the successor of the apostles, the barque of Peter; I am the way, the truth and the life. They who are with me are with the Church; and they who are not with me are out of the Church. They are out of the way, the truth and the life.
Pope Pius IX

 

[Mickey]

**Q. Must not Catholics believe the Pope in himself to be infallible?
** A. This is a Protestant invention; it is no article of the Catholic faith; no decision of his can oblige, under pain of heresy, unless it be received and enforced by the teaching body, that is, by the Bishops of the Church.
Keenan Catechism

 

[Mickey]

"The Pope is not simply the representative of Jesus Christ. On the contrary, he is Jesus Christ Himself, under the veil of the flesh, and who by means of a being common to humanity continues His ministry amongst men … Does the Pope speak? It is Jesus Christ Who is speaking. Does he teach? It is Jesus Christ Who teaches. Does he confer grace or pronounce an anathema? It is Jesus Christ Himself Who is pronouncing the anathema and conferring the grace.
**Cardinal Giuseppe Melchior Sarto, Patriarch of Venice (1893-1903). ****Pope Pius X (1903-1914)] ******

 

[Mickey]

Now give me evidence that Peter was going the way of Judas.

Er… let’s see…betrayal…denial…Judas tries to return the money then falls into despair…Peter weeps bitterly…

It’s all there in black and white.

Peter was NEVER out of the fold…

You may believe that if you wish…but it is no coincident that Jesus asks the same question three times expecting St Peter’s triple affirmation…following a triple denial.

History proves the Catholic point.

Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition proves the Orthodox Catholic point.

 

[anthony022071]

Papal Infallibility was not known in the early undivided Church of the first millennium. The councils knew nothing of it, nor did the early Church Fathers. It was a doctrine which was promulgated and championed by the Ultramontanists of post schism Rome. It was rejected by the Latin Catholic councils of Constance and Basel. Finally, it was defined by Pius IX in 1870 at the first Vatican council amongst considerable opposition. It has widened the schism between East and West ever since.

Libellius Hormisdae (519),signed by 2,500 Eastern bishops:

“Because the statement of our Lord Jesus Christ, when He said, ‘Thou art
Peter, and upon this Rock I will found my Church and the gates of hell shall
not prevail against it, etc,’ cannot be set aside; this, which is said, is
proved by the results; for in the Apostolic See religion has always
been preserved without spot …In which (See) is set the perfect and true
solidity of the Christain religion.”

…“In the Apostolic See the Catholic religion has always been kept undefiled
and her holy doctrine proclaimed. Desiring, therefore, not to be in the
least degree separated from the faith and doctrine of that See, we hope that
we may deserve to be in the one communion with you which the Apostolic See
preaches, in which is the entire and true solidity of the Christian religion:
promising also that the names of those who are cut off from the communion of
the Catholic Church, that is, not consentient with the Apostolic See, shall
not be recited during the Sacred Mysteries (i.e., the Mass). This is my
profession, I have subscribed with my own hand, and delivered to you,
Hormisdas, the holy and venerable Pope of the city of Rome.”

 

[Mickey]

Libellius Hormisdae (519),signed by 2,500 Eastern bishops:

"Because the statement of our Lord Jesus Christ, when He said, ‘Thou art
Peter, and upon this Rock I will found my Church and the gates of hell shall
not prevail against it, etc,’ cannot be set aside; this, which is said, is
proved by the results; for in the Apostolic See religion has always
been preserved without spot …In which (See) is set the perfect and true
solidity of the Christain religion."

**Amen. Rome was truly orthodox at this time. May She return to the fold soon. **

 

[Mickey]

Regarding supreme infallibility at First Vatican Council:

As early as January 1870, at the initiative of Bishops Martin and Senestre a petition was sent to the pope; it immediately received the support of the majority of the Council members and thus anticipated the decision before any discussion on the subject. The petition asked for the proclamation of the pope’s supreme and infallible authority in matters of faith. Forty-six Council members from Austria-Hungary and Germany immediately sent a counter-petition, asking not to submit this subject for discussion; they were joined by 38 French, 27 American, 17 Eastern and 7 Italian bishops.
(The Vatican dogma)

 

[Mickey]

The collection of written protests against the dogma of papal infallibility shows how strong was the opposition to it. Sixty-one members wrote that the proposed dogma should be withdrawn and some gave decisive dogmatic and canonic reasons for this; fourteen said that the subject required further investigation; others regarded the proposed dogma as a self-contradictory innovation likely to lead to schism; only 56 were more or less in favour of it.
(The Vatican dogma)

 

[anthony022071]

Mickey:

**Amen. Rome was truly orthodox at this time. May She return to the fold soon. **

Did you miss the part that says “Because the statement of our Lord Jesus Christ, when He said, ‘Thou art Peter, and upon this Rock I will found my Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it, etc,’ cannot be set aside”?
The signatories agreed with the Roman Catholic belief that the teachings of Rome are infallible,based upon the words of Christ.

Theodore the Studite:
“I witness now before God and men, they [the Iconoclasts] have torn themselves away from the Body of Christ, from the Supreme See , in which Christ placed the keys of the Faith, against which the gates of hell (I mean the mouth of heretics) have not prevailed, and never will until the Consummation, according to the promise of Him Who cannot lie. Let the blessed and Apostolic Paschal [Pope St. Paschal I] rejoice therefore, for he has fulfilled the work of Peter.” (Theodore Bk. II. Ep. 63).

 

[Mickey]

Did you miss the part that says “Because the statement of our Lord Jesus Christ, when He said, ‘Thou art Peter, and upon this Rock I will found my Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it, etc,’ cannot be set aside”?
The signatories agreed with the Roman Catholic belief that the teachings of Rome are infallible,based upon the words of Christ.

You sure got me confused now Tony. I see nothing about supreme infallible pontiffs. I see nothing about the doctrine of supremacy/infallibility. I see that Rome was a pillar of orthodoxy and the pre-eminent Church as the capital of Christianity.

You continue to read things into your quotes through your wishful thinking.

 

[Mickey]

Pope Gregory the Great (540-604)
“I say it without the least hesitation, whoever calls himself the universal bishop, or desires this title, is by his pride, the precursor of anti-Christ, because he thus attempts to raise himself above the others. The error into which he falls springs from pride equal to that of anti-Christ; for as that wicked one wished to be regarded as exalted above other men, like a god, so likewise whoever would call himself sole bishop exalteth himself above others”

“It cannot be denied that if any one bishop be called universal, all the Church crumbles if that universal one fall”.

 

[anthony022071]

Rome must not require more from the East with respect to the doctrine of primacy than had been formulated and was lived in the first millennium.
Joseph Ratzinger****

oecumene.radiovaticana.org/en1/Articolo.asp?c=106196
(30 Nov 2006 RV) Pope Benedict XVI’s speech in the Patriarchal Cathedral of St George Istanbul, on the feast of St Andrew:

< "Simon Peter and Andrew were called together to become fishers of men. This same task, however, took on a different form for each of the brothers. Simon, notwithstanding his human weakness, was called “Peter”, the “rock” on which the Church was to be built; to him in a particular way were entrusted the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven (cf. Mt 16:18). His journey would take him from Jerusalem to Antioch, and from Antioch to Rome, so that in that City he might exercise a universal responsibility. The issue of the universal service of Peter and his Successors has unfortunately given rise to our differences of opinion, which we hope to overcome, thanks also to the theological dialogue which has been recently resumed.

My venerable predecessor, the Servant of God Pope John Paul II, spoke of the mercy that characterizes Peter’s service of unity, a mercy which Peter himself was the first to experience (Encyclical Ut Unum Sint, 91). It is on this basis that Pope John Paul extended an invitation to enter into a fraternal dialogue aimed at identifying ways in which the Petrine ministry might be exercised today, while respecting its nature and essence, so as to “accomplish a service of love recognized by all concerned” (ibid., 95). It is my desire today to recall and renew this invitation." >

 

[Mickey]

It is on this basis that Pope John Paul extended an invitation to enter into a fraternal dialogue aimed at identifying ways in which the Petrine ministry might be exercised today, while respecting its nature and essence, so as to “accomplish a service of love recognized by all concerned” (ibid., 95). It is my desire today to recall and renew this invitation." >

Yes. I have noticed that there is a bit of regret for the odd 1870 doctrine when it comes to the dialogue of Pope Benedict and his predesessor, the much admired John Paul II.

 

[Mickey]

**Pope Gregory the Great (540-604) writing to the Bishop of Alexandria: **“Your Holiness has been at pains to tell us that in addressing certain persons you no longer give them certain titles that have no better origin than pride, using this phrase regarding me, ‘as you have commanded me.’ I pray you let me never again hear this word command; for I know who I am and who you are. By your position you are my brethren; by your virtue you are my fathers. I have, therefore, not commanded; I have only been careful to point out things which seemed to me useful. Still I do not find that Your Holiness has perfectly remembered what I particularly wished to impress on your memory; for I said that you should no more give that title to me than to others; and lo! in the superscription of your letter, you gave to me, who have proscribed them, the vainglorious titles of Universal and Pope. May your sweet holiness do so no more in the future. I beseech you; for you take from yourself what you give excess to another. I do not esteem that an honor which causes my brethren to lose their own dignity. My honor is that of the whole Church. My honor is the unshakable firmness of my brethren. I consider myself truly honored when no one is denied the honor due to them. If Your Holiness calls me Universal Pope, you deny that you are yourself what I should be altogether. God forbid! Far from us be words that puff up vanity and wound charity”.

 

[anthony022071]

You sure got me confused now Tony. I see nothing about supreme infallible pontiffs. I see nothing about the doctrine of supremacy/infallibility.

Well,think about it. The pope is one the who pronounces and defines and ratifies doctrines of the See of Rome. The signatories,addressing the pope,admit that in the See of Rome the faith has been kept pure,and that in Rome is set the perfect,entire and true solidity of the Christain religion.

I see that Rome was a pillar of orthodoxy and the pre-eminent Church as the capital of Christianity.

The signatories admit what the Catholic Church claims – that the Church is founded upon Peter,and they associate Peter,and Christ’s promise,with the See of Rome.

 

[Mickey]

Well,think about it. The pope is one who pronounces and defines doctrines of the See of Rome.

**Can you show that Popes in the undivided Church were able to establish dogmas apart from a council. **

The signatories admit what the Catholic Church claims – that the Church is founded upon Peter,and they associate Peter,and Christ’s promise,with the See of Rome.

Yes. But they also know that the Church was founded on all the Apostles and that they **all **have dignity, honour and authority.

They do not say that the Pope of Rome is a supreme infallible pontiff because he succeeds from St Peter. Rome was orthodox. May She return to the fold soon.

 

[Mickey]

St. Cyril of Alexandria, Letter to Nestorius:
“Peter and John were equal in dignity and honor. Christ is the foundation of all -the unshakeable Rock upon which we are all built as a spiritual edifice.”

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****'This power is confided in him in a special manner because the type of Peter is proposed to all the pastors of the Church. Therefore the privilege of Peter dwells wherever judgement is given with his equity." **(Pope Leo 3rd Himuly bk4 migne)
**

'Let us give in Him thanks for having so destroyed all the enmities, in His Humanity, there is in the world one flock, under one shepherd, who is Christ himself. Let us always remember the Preacher of Truth (Paul), Endeavoring to keep the unity in the bond of peace (eph 4.3)… The same said to his disciples, 'If it be possible as much as lieth in you, live peaceably among all men.(Rom 12.18)". (Pope Gregory the Great, Letters of bk5 Letter 20).

 

[steve_b]

I would agree to this, and add that the early Church Fathers wrote at a time when the Catholic Church was within Orthodoxy; the situation then was different from what it is from 1054 onwards. Thus, at that time they wrote it, it was still true of the Patriarchate in Rome.

1. 
   *]I’m sure you’ve heard this rebuttal before, Catholics disagree on how you use [O]rthodoxy in your response.
   *]The patriarchal system was an Eastern invention. It divided the Church. And in the East, it sealed IMO its fate with Islam who was one, who knocked off each autocephelous church in the East one by one. It would be interesting to see history played over, had you remained united to Rome, would history have looked alot different today?.
   Re: the patriarchal system, and the expression 1st among equals
   

   :
   
   From Cardinal Ratzinger, now Benedict XVI
   

   1. In Christian literature, the expression begins to be used in the East when, from the fifth century, the idea of the *Pentarchy *gained ground, according to which there are five Patriarchs at the head of the Church, with the Church of Rome having the first place among these patriarchal sister Churches. In this connection, however, it needs to be noted that no Roman Pontiff ever recognized this equalization of the sees or accepted that only a primacy of honour be accorded to the See of Rome.It should be noted too that this patriarchal structure typical of the East never developed in the West.
   2. The expression appears again in two letters of the Metropolitan Nicetas of Nicodemia (in the year 1136) and the Patriarch John X Camaterus (in office from 1198 to 1206), in which they protested that Rome, by presenting herself as *mother and teacher, *would annul their authority.In their view, Rome is only the first among sisters of equal dignity.

   vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000630_chiese-sorelle_en.html

 

[steve_b]

Q. Must not Catholics believe the Pope in himself to be infallible?

A. This is a Protestant invention; it is no article of the Catholic faith; no decision of his can oblige, under pain of heresy, unless it be received and enforced by the teaching body, that is, by the Bishops of the Church.
Keenan Catechism

Here’s Keenens Catechism

biblelight.net/keenan.htm

You won’t find what you’ve printed in Keenan’s Catechism. It would have been very easy for you to verify that. :tsktsk:

 

[anthony022071]

**Can you show that Popes in the undivided Church were able to establish dogmas apart from a council. **