Why is "the end" so complicated? (Edited title)

[Simca]

Revelation really isn’t that difficult. The key is that the Bible is a story.-Tim-

Over several years I have off-and-on read so many commentaries on Revelation from all different viewpoints. I have kind of reached my own conclusion (that probably sounds dangerous in itself!)

Does anyone think my following comments are just crazy?

Here’s what I’ve been thinking: The Book of Revelation is in itself a story-it is the Revelation of God’s plan of Salvation.

The story basically starts in Revelation chapter 6 where the Horsemen are released. I see these events as happening because of the Fall of man. God allowed peace to be taken from the world, famines began happening, and mankind was doomed to die (the red horse).
These events continue happening throughout the whole history of mankind and are the natural consequences of our disobedience to God.

The 144,000 sealed and the great # which no man can count, represent the total # all of the redeemed and tells us that believers are over-comers.

The Trumpets represent God’s trying to redeem mankind through various trials and prophets.

Mankind still doesn’t repent, so he sends his son. (chapter 12)

The rest of the book happens after the coming 1st coming of Christ.

I think that just as Jesus had to explain all the prophecies of his 1st coming to his disciples, he’ll probably have to explain the prophecies of his 2nd coming to us as well. Guess the most important thing is to ‘watch and pray’.

 

[Gloria_de_G]

Gloria,
. Please forgive me for being tired out right now. I’ve studied this in the past and been quite convinced at the “each day for a year” thing, and how their 360 days were the years, etc. Just too tired to go into it right now, but will offer to refer you to the same information above, and really wish you wouldn’t mind giving some of it a read. I know it’s asking a lot, but it really isn’t long, and most of what I’d end up saying to you would be in the words of Abdul Baha and it sheds light on the two witnesses and the 1260 stuff.

. I truly want to thank you for your patience and wish that I could join you for tea in Jerusalem one day. God bless you, Gloria. I just sense a very fine spirit in you and appreciate it greatly. Gnite, dear friend:

. Several Chapters of this book, Some Answered Questions, ideals with some of this in a very unique way. You might want to give it look through. Especially chp 10 to 13

reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SAQ/

.

---

You know Dale, I hope you are going to forgive me for being a bit rude, but I went to see the pages 10 and 13 that you suggested and I tell you: Page 10 is not a Christian rendering to interpret that prophecy because what I told you before:** the law and the prophets up to John the Baptist.**

The page 12 which I quote here below is just rubbish. Why? Because what has to do Mohamed and the Imams with their Koran with the Revelation of Jesus Christ which they did not even know about??? You just have to read something in the Koran to know its origin:

From the Koran:

**“Fighting is obligatory for you as much as you dislike it” The Cow 2:216.

“If you do not go to war, He will punish you sternly, and will replace you by other men. You will in no way harm Him for God has power over all things” Repentance 9:39 -41.

“When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield strike off their heads and, when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly…” Muhammad 47:4.**
**

And now you can understand why I said that what follows from Abdul Baha or Bahaulah is just rubbish.**

And in chapter 12, verse 1, it is said: “And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars.” This woman is that bride, the Law of God that descended upon Muhammad. The sun with which she was clothed, and the moon which was under her feet, are the two nations which are under the shadow of that Law, the Persian and Ottoman kingdoms; for the emblem of Persia is the sun, and that of the Ottoman Empire is the crescent moon. Thus the sun and moon are the emblems of two kingdoms which are under the power of the Law of God. Afterward it is said: “upon her head is a crown of twelve stars.” These twelve stars are the twelve Imams, who were the promoters of the Law of Muhammad and the educators of the people, shining like stars in the heaven of guidance." **Yes, like the guidance of the verses that I quote above no?
** or this one **"Believers, **vengeance **is decreed for you in bloodshed (…) In **vengeance you have a safeguard for your lives; perchance you will guard yourselves against evil" (The Cow 2:178-179) And this is what you call the Law that God gave to Mohamed???

Do you really think that if you take revenge you will keep away from evil? This is exactly what one will be: evil. And again you called this the law of god given to Mohamed… you are deceived.

If you do not repent of following all these things, you will never come to know the truth.

In the love of Christ,
Gloria
Yes, when you come to Jerusalem we can have a cup of tea!!

.

 

[Simca]

**

Why not visit this site made by Catholics and look at the commentary it may help:

newtorah.org**

In the love of His Revelation,
Gloria.

Just noticed this. THANKS!

 

[Gloria_de_G]

Over several years I have off-and-on read so many commentaries on Revelation from all different viewpoints. I have kind of reached my own conclusion (that probably sounds dangerous in itself!)

Does anyone think my following comments are just crazy?

Here’s what I’ve been thinking: The Book of Revelation is in itself a story-it is the Revelation of God’s plan of Salvation.

The story basically starts in Revelation chapter 6 where the Horsemen are released. I see these events as happening because of the Fall of man. God allowed peace to be taken from the world, famines began happening, and mankind was doomed to die (the red horse).
These events continue happening throughout the whole history of mankind and are the natural consequences of our disobedience to God.

The 144,000 sealed and the great # which no man can count, represent the total # all of the redeemed and tells us that believers are over-comers.

The Trumpets represent God’s trying to redeem mankind through various trials and prophets.

Mankind still doesn’t repent, so he sends his son. (chapter 12)

The rest of the book happens after the coming 1st coming of Christ.

I think that just as Jesus had to explain all the prophecies of his 1st coming to his disciples, he’ll probably have to explain the prophecies of his 2nd coming to us as well. Guess the most important thing is to ‘watch and pray’.

That sounds ok to me but to explain the prophesies of his 2nd coming you are told in the Book of Revelation that you need wisdom. But do not worry the coming of the two witnesses, which need to happen before the second coming, will put everything into perspective. They died in Jerusalem by the hand of the beast who will start the Great Tribulation.

And by the way the trumpets and the bowls happen in the times of the end, the trumpets a bit before the two witnesses, and the bowls after . Long after the first coming of Christ.

If you have read some many commentaries, may be you would like to give an eye to this one:

newtorah.org/Commentary.html

In the love of Christ,
Gloria

.

 

[daler]

From the Koran:

**“Fighting is obligatory for you as much as you dislike it” The Cow 2:216.

“If you do not go to war, He will punish you sternly, and will replace you by other men. You will in no way harm Him for God has power over all things” Repentance 9:39 -41.

“When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield strike off their heads** and, when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly…” Muhammad 47:4.
**

And in chapter 12, verse 1, it is said: “And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars.” This woman is that bride, the Law of God that descended upon Muhammad**. The sun with which she was clothed, and the moon which was under her feet, are the two nations which are under the shadow of that Law, the Persian and Ottoman kingdoms; for the emblem of Persia is the sun, and that of the Ottoman Empire is the crescent moon. Thus the sun and moon are the emblems of two kingdoms which are under the power of the Law of God. Afterward it is said: “upon her head is a crown of twelve stars.” These twelve stars are the twelve Imams, who were the promoters of the Law of Muhammad and the educators of the people, shining like stars in the heaven of guidance." Yes, like the guidance of the verses that I quote above no?
or this one **“Believers, **vengeance ****is decreed for you in bloodshed (…) In **vengeance **you have a safeguard for your lives; perchance you will guard yourselves against evil” (The Cow 2:178-179) And this is what you call the Law that God gave to Mohamed???

Do you really think that if you take revenge you will keep away from evil? This is exactly what one will be: evil. And again you called this the law of god given to Mohamed… you are deceived.

If you do not repent of following all these things, you will never come to know the truth.

In the love of Christ,
Gloria
Yes, when you come to Jerusalem we can have a cup of tea!!

.

Gloria,
. Where to begin?.. War was most clearly sanctioned throughout the Old Testament and prophesied in the New, esp in Revelation, when God would destroy all the evil ones, Armageddon, etc, etc…

. I think when people are being attacked ruthlessly by marauders who are raping and killing and savagely destroying innocent people, when one of the Old Testament Prophets says to arise in the name of God and kill them, you will not protest at all, but say: The Bible said thus and such! So it is from God.

. So the problem then comes when a later Prophet (alleged) appears in the midst of such evil idolators, who bury their own daughters alive, worship idols, lie and connive, and cause so much bloodshed, that somehow they cannot possibly be guided by the God who prophecies that God shall defeat the wicked unless they just lay down and die??? Not following your logic, my friend.

. Would that we lived in that happy fantasy world where 9-11 could be dealt with without vengeance. “Vengeance is Mine, sayeth the Lord.” Thus, following the logic that “IF” Muhammad “IS” a Prophet of God Who invokes vengeance and retaliation against the likes of the NAZI SS torturers operating the gas ovens incinerating millions of Jews, “How dare they defend themselves?”

. The treatment of adulterers, homosexuals, and idolators in the OLD Testament is extreme, is it not? Yet you do not reject Moses because of it? Even Jesus said, “Think not that I have come to bring peace, but a sword.” And the history of Christian conquest is exponentially bloodier than that of Islam, neither one of which can say their atrocities are sanctioned by God, other than where strictly in self-defense justifies it. Or am I wrong, my friend? (I’ve got a lot of friends back home on the Reservation who would like to understand exactly what was meant when they signed all those treaties written "In the year of our Lord 1868, etc,… )

. So, quite honestly, I have a lot of trouble with human history, and the extreme methods outlined in the Bible and the Quran in dealing with it, but then, thats just idealism on my part, and when it is my children being killed and raped, you can bet I’d lop off a few heads myself and feel no qualms…

. Not sure how far to go in answer to your reading of Some Answered Questions, but thank you so much for at least doing that, for it shows your heart is open to understand some of the views others hold, and it is highly meritorious. This problem of ruling out most of the rest of humanity because “they don’t believe like me” is a huge barrier to getting the peoples of the world to sit down at the same table. It seems much easier to simply launch cruise missiles and “lop of their heads” that way, doesn’t it… or a drop a couple of nukes over Japan in WWII, in the name of God.

. So let us begin with admitting that we all fall short of the glory of God and view the world through deficient eyes and have a history of rejecting every Prophet sent to us because of this reason or that, all sufficient from our point of view. And when He acts to round us up into the One Fold and the One Shepherd, how then do we respond?

. “My sheep know My voice…”

“Onward Christian soldiers…”

“Remember the Alamo!”

. and everyone’s hero is another man’s terrorist. How do we stop this, in the name of God? By blunt accusations, or by independent investigation of the truth… It took me a long… time to figure out the Islamic part of the jigsaw puzzle, part of it being that it was in fact corrupted right from the get go in fulfillment of Revelation with the Beast (Ummayyads) ruling for 1260 years and killing the Bab, Who was the man-child birthed from the Woman who fled to the deserts of Hijaz…
.

 

[daler]

Does anyone think my following comments are just crazy?

Here’s what I’ve been thinking: The Book of Revelation is in itself a story-it is the Revelation of God’s plan of Salvation.

The story basically starts in Revelation chapter 6 where the Horsemen are released. I see these events as happening because of the Fall of man. God allowed peace to be taken from the world, famines began happening, and mankind was doomed to die (the red horse).
These events continue happening throughout the whole history of mankind and are the natural consequences of our disobedience to God.

The 144,000 sealed and the great # which no man can count, represent the total # all of the redeemed and tells us that believers are over-comers.

The Trumpets represent God’s trying to redeem mankind through various trials and prophets.

Mankind still doesn’t repent, so he sends his son. (chapter 12)

The rest of the book happens after the coming 1st coming of Christ.

I think that just as Jesus had to explain all the prophecies of his 1st coming to his disciples, he’ll probably have to explain the prophecies of his 2nd coming to us as well. Guess the most important thing is to ‘watch and pray’.

Simca,
. It is good to have your own thinking cap on. Scratching one’s head now and then helps, too, I’ve found…
. Daniel and Revelation are full of imagery and symbolism. Daniel was told that the meaning of his visions would be sealed until the time of the end, referring to the 2300 days (years) and the 1260 etc. The same was said in Revelation, that only when the Lord comes the meaning would be revealed.
. When Jesus came a couple of thousand years ago, of course He was rejected and it was deemed a non-event by “those in the know”, but as time crept on, His religion covered the world.
. Would not the second coming perhaps be similar? A “non-event” in the eyes of those in the know. Why do simple people like Peter, a mere fisherman, recognize their Lord when the guys with all the fancy clothes and jewelry tend to miss Him? And does history repeat itself, and if so, why would it not do so this time around?

. And you do good, friend, to say “Watch and pray”, for Jesus repeatedly warned His followers to “Watch, for ye know not at what hour the thief comes”. And when the thief comes in the night and is gone by morning, when people wake up to an empty house, only then do they understand they’ve been visited.

. So there are always a few who get up early (maybe waiting for Santa… and keep their candles lit, and when they say to others, “He has come”, well, the others just want to grab their pillow and go back to sleep, don’t cha know…

.

 

[Gloria_de_G]

Gloria,
. Where to begin?.. War was most clearly sanctioned throughout the Old Testament and prophesied in the New, esp in Revelation, when God would destroy all the evil ones, Armageddon, etc, etc…

.

I think the difference between you an me is very clear:** You are a Bahai’ **and I am a Catholic Christian.

**The Bahais **take the Koran to be a Holy Book

The Catholic Christians take the New Testament (and the Old T what is necessary for understanding our Christian life) to be their Holy Books

For the Bahais’ the history of Islam is so important for your spiritual life

For Catholic Christians the history of Christ’s advent and of the Saints are must important for our spiritual life.

For the Bahais the teachings of Bahaulah are more precious.

For Catholic Christians the teachings of Christ, of the Church and of the Saints are must precious.

So knowing our differences and me having studied the writings of Bahaulah, I am not interest not even a bit in hearing all the things about the Islamic history to understand my Christianity.

I did not even feel like quoting your post. I hope you are not offended.
Many thanks,
Gloria

.

 

[PJM]

=Lasting faith;11215825]I think this is the right forum. I read my Bible every morning and evening, one chapter from the OT in the morning and one from NT in the evening, and I have reached The Book of Revelations and I did start to ponder about one thing. Why is “the end” so complicated?

John authored the Book of Revelations during a time of SEVERE ROMAN prosecution of the Church. So it’s written in a sort of CODE that only followers of “THE WAY” could understand

One needs to at FIRST reading of any Scripture place themselves in the Time and PLACE of the Author and those he was writing to and for…

It’s a GREAT practice you have KEEP up the good work.

God Bless you,
Patrick

 

[daler]

I think the difference between you an me is very clear:** You are a Bahai’ **and I am a Catholic Christian.

**The Bahais **take the Koran to be a Holy Book

The Catholic Christians take the New Testament (and the Old T what is necessary for understanding our Christian life) to be their Holy Books

For the Bahais’ the history of Islam is so important for your spiritual life

For Catholic Christians the history of Christ’s advent and of the Saints are must important for our spiritual life.

For the Bahais the teachings of Bahaulah are more precious.

For Catholic Christians the teachings of Christ, of the Church and of the Saints are must precious.

So knowing our differences and me having studied the writings of Bahaulah, I am not interest not even a bit in hearing all the things about the Islamic history to understand my Christianity.

I did not even feel like quoting your post. I hope you are not offended.
Many thanks,
Gloria

.

Gloria,
. I am not offended. What is recurring and expressed is that the Jews accept no Prophet of God after Moses, that Christians accept no Messenger after Jesus, that Muslims believe no Prophet will come after Muhammad, yet each set of believers accepts all of the Prophets Who precede “their own”. Yet all of these groups have been told of One to come, have they not? Within each group there have always been a few who have testified to the reality of the next Prophet and stated their reasons of belief while surrounded by traditional believers of their preceding group who express their denial.

. What appears to be the norm is an emotional aspect of reaction to this process of “progressive revelation” which seems to cause the “offense” reflex in some to be activated, almost as though that is a necessary part of what it is in us to “believe” what ever it is that we believe. The negative aspect of it is simply something to be overcome and transferred into something positive.

. All of the Holy Books are important to the Baha’is as it is regarded as one continuous process, yet history demonstrates humanity’s response as violent and emotional and at this stage we have been told by Baha’u’llah that “Conflict and contention are categorically forbidden in His Book.”

. I don’t think that Baha’is would say that the teachings of Baha’u’llah are more precious, for the Holy Words of God stream from one and the same Source.

. “… thou hadst inquired which of the Prophets of God should be regarded as superior to others. Know thou assuredly that the essence of all the Prophets of God is one and the same. Their unity is absolute. God, the Creator, saith: There is no distinction whatsoever among the Bearers of My Message. They all have but one purpose; their secret is the same secret. To prefer one in honor to another, to exalt certain ones above the rest, is in no wise to be permitted. Every true Prophet hath regarded His Message as fundamentally the same as the Revelation of every other Prophet gone before Him. If any man, therefore, should fail to comprehend this truth, and should consequently indulge in vain and unseemly language, no one whose sight is keen and whose understanding is enlightened would ever allow such idle talk to cause him to waver in his belief.”

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-34.html
.

 

[thistle]

I think this is the right forum. I read my Bible every morning and evening, one chapter from the OT in the morning and one from NT in the evening, and I have reached The Book of Revelations and I did start to ponder about one thing. Why is “the end” so complicated?

When the end comes:

If we have already died then we are in Hell or have been saved.
If we are not dead then we either go to Hell or are saved.
How is that complicated?

 

[Gloria_de_G]

When the end comes:

If we have already died then we are in Hell or have been saved.
If we are not dead then we either go to Hell or are saved.
How is that complicated?

I supposed the complication come when you may be deceived!!! If you are not sure of the things that are going to happen, the prophecies that need still to be fulfill. How about if the Antichrist deceives you!!! If you do not know that the Antichrist has to kill the two witnesses to be able to recognize him, how then you will know???

In the love of His Revelation,
Gloria

.

 

[thistle]

I supposed the complication come when you may be deceived!!! If you are not sure of the things that are going to happen, the prophecies that need still to be fulfill. How about if the Antichrist deceives you!!! If you do not know that the Antichrist has to kill the two witnesses to be able to recognize him, how then you will know???

In the love of His Revelation,
Gloria

.

Why would you be deceived?

 

[fred_conty]

Why would you be deceived?

I think deception could come about if enough people were saying the wrong things.
That is that some of the truths we hold are put into play and then people’s faith will begin to waver adding to the deception. It will be something of a snowball effect that gets bigger as it goes down the hill. It will just grow over time but starting out as something questionable and ignored. The pressure will become huge.

People cave under numbers.

 

[thistle]

I think deception could come about if enough people were saying the wrong things.
That is that some of the truths we hold are put into play and then people’s faith will begin to waver adding to the deception. It will be something of a snowball effect that gets bigger as it goes down the hill. It will just grow over time but starting out as something questionable and ignored. The pressure will become huge.

People cave under numbers.

I would think deception to be highly improbable.
We know the Church teachings. If anything is being done or said (no matter by however many people) that contradicts the Church teachings then it is obviously false. I don’t see how that is complicated.

 

[fred_conty]

I would think deception to be highly improbable.
We know the Church teachings. If anything is being done or said (no matter by however many people) that contradicts the Church teachings then it is obviously false. I don’t see how that is complicated.

It isn’t that it will be complicated, in fact, it will be very simple. Some article of our faith will be thrown into a slight contrary light. And then from there other articles will then be questioned, but over a time of serveral years. It will weaken the faith because the weak in faith will add to the noise, and then others will begin to weaken. So it won’t be a sudden thing, but a growth, and confusion to some degree, maybe a questioning of what we thought was true, but now is being twisted to seem like we only had a partial of the truth, which then will cause a further questioning.

I don’t see it as something just black and white all of a sudden. But I do think that in this way many could begin to have some doubts that they never thought that they would ever have. And then confusion in their thinking will take place.

It will come about in a way that we will least expect, because that is the way the enemy always comes. Our truths will be laced with a little poison here and there.

 

[thistle]

It isn’t that it will be complicated, in fact, it will be very simple. Some article of our faith will be thrown into a slight contrary light. And then from there other articles will then be questioned, but over a time of serveral years. It will weaken the faith because the weak in faith will add to the noise, and then others will begin to weaken. So it won’t be a sudden thing, but a growth, and confusion to some degree, maybe a questioning of what we thought was true, but now is being twisted to seem like we only had a partial of the truth, which then will cause a further questioning.

I don’t see it as something just black and white all of a sudden. But I do think that in this way many could begin to have some doubts that they never thought that they would ever have. And then confusion in their thinking will take place.

It will come about in a way that we will least expect, because that is the way the enemy always comes. Our truths will be laced with a little poison here and there.

Sorry, but how can teachings change? They are documented. They are clearly stated in the CCC and underpinned by Church documents including Scripture and have been explained thousands, if not more, of times. I really do not see how anybody could be deceived.

 

[fred_conty]

Well the teachings and principles would not change but let’s say some technicological advances might challange these teachings.

For example, something new in the medical field would go against the natural law, and the church would say so. But this new developement would help to solve a number of medical problems. And so then there would be an advasarial response to the church’s view, even among some of it’s own, including some clergy.

This is just one idea, but there could well be a number of developements of this kind which would make people think the church unreasonable in this matter. Just look at ABC, and what it has done to hurt our church. We are almost the only one that says it is wrong, and the church has suffered a lot of heat for upholding the natural law.

Tho the church has always experienced contradictions and attacks, the world will try to make the church look like the bad guy because it is so unreasonable and even against relieving the suffering of humanity.

My main idea is that it won’t come as something so open but rather as subtle undermining of the church and her teachings. That’s why many of the faithful will subcome *(if they don’t pray).

 

[thistle]

For me its very simple. The Church teachings have never changed because they have the authority of God behind them and truth does not change no matter what challenges are placed in the way. The truth now is the same as the truth 2000 years ago. I do not believe the Church and its teachings can ever be undermined. Christ promised the gates of Hell would not prevail against the Church. I believe that.

 

[fred_conty]

Well you are absolutely right on. But not everyone will think as you after they have been bombbarded with slander agaist their faith. And I think, if I’m not mistaken, that Jesus said something to the effect that he wondered if anyone would have the faith when this came about.

I do believe my faith would be shaken, although I don’t know if I would subcome to it. It really will be tough facing so much and so many who are against the church and her teaching. Once that powerful public opinion turns fully against catholicism, it will be tough to hold out against almost everyone else, especially when the full effect of this is felt by the clergy.

I believe the anti-christ is to have special power to perform miracles and make society think that he is God or comes from God. He will be set up in the temple. And thru these wonders he will convince and fool people. The pressure on us will be immense to go against this tide. Just as it was for the German people to go against Hitler, their saviour.

Of course there will always be the church to the end, but how large it will be is another matter.

 

[thistle]

I’ll be dead before the end of days and hopefully saved but eventually we will find out what happens.