Why is "the end" so complicated? (Edited title)

[daler]

Thanks Daler,
The central theme of the Bible is Christ; the central theme of Qur’an is different.
One of the foster fathers of prophet Mohammed was a Christian and must have taught him some basics of Christianity.
It doesn’t mean that we Christians don’t have an interpretation of the book of Daniel or Revelation, we have. And, surprisingly it does not point to any of your suggested interpretations.

Oska,
. I fully understand your perspective and appreciate the sentiment and convictions which you hold, having been raised Christian and believing in the Bible myself. That persons like myself should have come to such conclusions, not by fickle and shallow imaginations, but by studying the careful and elaborate research of very capable scholars, sorting through the nonsense and sifting out that which stands all tests, and then standing by those conclusions even amidst accusations of heresy, is not an easy task.
. But one approach to this question of time prophecy I learned from the Adventist camp, whose conclusions were drawn independently from any contact with the Baha’is. I disagree with their anti-Papal concoctions in relations to the 1260, as well as the 1280 and 1290 prophecies which are forced to prove their anti-Catholic rhetoric, but their 2300 day (year) reckonings are pretty close to spot on, and give them credit for that much.
. Where they then fall short again is in the conclusion that Jesus did some little cleansing of the Sanctuary act in heaven and is waiting for enough of them to line up, as in 144000, before He can return, where as if your read Daniel, His vision occurred in Elam, the ancient province which is currently SW Iran. Jeremiah the Prophet also very clearly states that the “Lord shall set His Throne in Elam”, so it bears looking into, and set up against numerous other bits of evidence.
. That the starting point of the time prophecies is 457 BC is very sound, and 70 weeks (of years) being 490 years later is the date of Messiah being “cut off”, or crucified. One must, when working with this allow for a single year at the start of the new calendar, which effectively means that 2300 minus 456 (the correct figure) terminates in 1844 AD, which interestingly happens to be the year 1260 AH. This is either a surprising coincidence, or it means something. Its one or the other, to be followed by significant events in the year 1280 AH, which is 1863 AD. The other figure of 1290 refers to the public declaration of Muhammad, which was ten years prior to the Hijra, the starting point of the Islamic calendar. Hence, 1290 years after the public declaration of Muhammad is also the year 1280 AH, or 1863 AD, the year of the public declaration of Baha’u’llah, which followed the public declaration of the Bab, in “Elam”, in 1844 which was 1260 AH.
. Hence, Baha’is believe that indeed the Lord set His Throne in Elam in 1844 as the Adventists’ research proves, and Baha’i proves as well that the two dates are the same, as well as the place prophecy.
. Thus, the logic of the fulfillment of both these particular time and place prophecies bears the weight of evidence under scrutiny, which supported by numerous, very substantial and tenable prophecies from a host of other of the Books of the Prophets. Far too much detail to squeeze into any single post.
. Briefly, the Baha’is view hundreds of not only Biblical prophecies alluding to the coming of the Promised One, but Islamic sources, Buddhist, Hindu Zoroastrian, Native American, etc, all of whom share something in common, The await their promised One, Whom Baha’is believe is Baha’u’llah, the Promised One of all religions, being one and the same Universal Manifestation of God, which has already occurred and is gaining millions of followers from every nation, religion, sect, and culture in the world. That this is indeed the time of the One Fold and the One Shepherd, or as Black Elk of the Lakota Sioux saw in His vision: “I saw forming One Sacred Hoop of All Nations.” It is the same thing, whether the Jews are awaiting the Lord of Hosts, the Christians the Spirit of Christ, the Muslims the Mahdi, etc.
. Quite simply, the Baha’is are no longer waiting. He has come…
/

 

[daler]

Thanks Daler,
The central theme of the Bible is Christ; the central theme of Qur’an is different.
One of the foster fathers of prophet Mohammed was a Christian and must have taught him some basics of Christianity.
It doesn’t mean that we Christians don’t have an interpretation of the book of Daniel or Revelation, we have. And, surprisingly it does not point to any of your suggested interpretations.

PS With specific address to your posts. keep in mind that Books of Daniel and their meaning for his visions was “sealed up” until the time of the end. Therefore, any interpretations are mere speculation, whereas if the time of the end has indeed occurred, the Books have in fact now been “unsealed”, and we assert that the meanings previously sealed are revealed in a book called the Kitab-i-Iqan, or Book of Certitude, written by Baha’u’llah showing the continuity of the religion of the Prophets from Adam even to the present Day, explaining clearly those mysterious terms with cohesion an eloquence in a manner which is both logical and address Christian and Quranic references sufficient to the need to do so, which Book I have studied for well over thirty years now.

As to the Prophets of God having to “learn” from their contemporaries, this misses the point, for Prophets receive their inspiration and Revelation directly from the Source, or God. The are free of the devices of human learning. The Source of Their knowledge is God, even as Jesus said, “The words you hear are not mine, but Him that sent Me…”

 

[Oska2]

Oska,
. I fully understand your perspective and appreciate the sentiment and convictions which you hold, having been raised Christian and believing in the Bible myself. That persons like myself should have come to such conclusions, not by fickle and shallow imaginations, but by studying the careful and elaborate research of very capable scholars, sorting through the nonsense and sifting out that which stands all tests, and then standing by those conclusions even amidst accusations of heresy, is not an easy task.
. But one approach to this question of time prophecy I learned from the Adventist camp, whose conclusions were drawn independently from any contact with the Baha’is. I disagree with their anti-Papal concoctions in relations to the 1260, as well as the 1280 and 1290 prophecies which are forced to prove their anti-Catholic rhetoric, but their 2300 day (year) reckonings are pretty close to spot on, and give them credit for that much.
. Where they then fall short again is in the conclusion that Jesus did some little cleansing of the Sanctuary act in heaven and is waiting for enough of them to line up, as in 144000, before He can return, where as if your read Daniel, His vision occurred in Elam, the ancient province which is currently SW Iran. Jeremiah the Prophet also very clearly states that the “Lord shall set His Throne in Elam”, so it bears looking into, and set up against numerous other bits of evidence.
. That the starting point of the time prophecies is 457 BC is very sound, and 70 weeks (of years) being 490 years later is the date of Messiah being “cut off”, or crucified. One must, when working with this allow for a single year at the start of the new calendar, which effectively means that 2300 minus 456 (the correct figure) terminates in 1844 AD, which interestingly happens to be the year 1260 AH. This is either a surprising coincidence, or it means something. Its one or the other, to be followed by significant events in the year 1280 AH, which is 1863 AD. The other figure of 1290 refers to the public declaration of Muhammad, which was ten years prior to the Hijra, the starting point of the Islamic calendar. Hence, 1290 years after the public declaration of Muhammad is also the year 1280 AH, or 1863 AD, the year of the public declaration of Baha’u’llah, which followed the public declaration of the Bab, in “Elam”, in 1844 which was 1260 AH.
. Hence, Baha’is believe that indeed the Lord set His Throne in Elam in 1844 as the Adventists’ research proves, and Baha’i proves as well that the two dates are the same, as well as the place prophecy.
. Thus, the logic of the fulfillment of both these particular time and place prophecies bears the weight of evidence under scrutiny, which supported by numerous, very substantial and tenable prophecies from a host of other of the Books of the Prophets. Far too much detail to squeeze into any single post.
. Briefly, the Baha’is view hundreds of not only Biblical prophecies alluding to the coming of the Promised One, but Islamic sources, Buddhist, Hindu Zoroastrian, Native American, etc, all of whom share something in common, The await their promised One, Whom Baha’is believe is Baha’u’llah, the Promised One of all religions, being one and the same Universal Manifestation of God, which has already occurred and is gaining millions of followers from every nation, religion, sect, and culture in the world. That this is indeed the time of the One Fold and the One Shepherd, or as Black Elk of the Lakota Sioux saw in His vision: “I saw forming One Sacred Hoop of All Nations.” It is the same thing, whether the Jews are awaiting the Lord of Hosts, the Christians the Spirit of Christ, the Muslims the Mahdi, etc.
. Quite simply, the Baha’is are no longer waiting. He has come…
/

Daler,
I’ve also read through the books of Adventists and the Qur’an.
I’ve also tried to count the years as you have demonstrated.

Let me start by saying that the Qur’an has stand alone statements that must be interpreted from the Bible. Without the Bible, it would be impossible to understand the Qur’an. Some statements are repeated many times in different Suras.

About the dates and timing as also done by the Adventists, the date 1844 which is said to be the year when Jesus came is not factual.
To be on the safer side on the timing, we should try to match several prophecies ie, Daniel, Luk 17: 24-37, 2Thess 2:2-7, & Revelation. Of greater importance is what Jesus said.
What is so clear is that Jesus has not come for the 2nd time. This allusion that he has already come fails the test of being authentic. When he comes, everybody shall know, for He shall come with power and great glory.

 

[daler]

Daler,
I’ve also read through the books of Adventists and the Qur’an.
I’ve also tried to count the years as you have demonstrated.

Let me start by saying that the Qur’an has stand alone statements that must be interpreted from the Bible. Without the Bible, it would be impossible to understand the Qur’an. Some statements are repeated many times in different Suras.

About the dates and timing as also done by the Adventists, the date 1844 which is said to be the year when Jesus came is not factual.
To be on the safer side on the timing, we should try to match several prophecies ie, Daniel, Luk 17: 24-37, 2Thess 2:2-7, & Revelation. Of greater importance is what Jesus said.
What is so clear is that Jesus has not come for the 2nd time. This allusion that he has already come fails the test of being authentic. When he comes, everybody shall know, for He shall come with power and great glory.

Oska,
. Thank you for the reply. While I don’t put much stock in EG White, the conclusions of Miller and numerous others of his era have a logical base to them. I think where the difficulty then arises is when people have a preconceived idea about how the Lord is going to appear to “them”, in their own preconceived way, meeting the criteria they demand of Him, without which, they either do not notice or simply turn away.

. If we look back at Jesus’ time, He clearly fulfilled numerous OT prophecies, but the Jews still insisted that He come “their way”, like Burger King, conquering the Romans, etc. Also, their refusal to recognize John the Baptist as the fulfillment of the Return of Elijah was a great veil to them.

. What is confirmed, however, in the words of Jesus regarding John as having come in the Spirit and Power of Elijah, is that what matters is that the Spirit and Power has returned, not the human vehicle. This is what stops people who are focussing on the Lamp, but disregarding the Light.

. Although I fully appreciate the difficulty involved in accepting a new human being, such as John, fulfilling the Return of what a former human being, Elijah, we have the authority of no less than Jesus to confirm it.

. What is historically supported by facts is the upheaval in Persia regarding the appearance of the Bab, in Elam, “in the year '60” (1260AH), which is significant to Muslims to whom their own prophecy stated relating to the appearance of the Qaim. That the figure 1260 appears repeatedly in the Bible, both in Daniel and Revelation, gives considerable weight to suggest that it may well be more than mere coincidence that such upheaval regarding the Promised One of Islam appearing in that year converges with the Messianic expectations of both Jews and Christians, particularly when all three religions supply “place” prophecies to the same region.

. Thus, it may be how we allow ourselves to look at the information given to us, rather than the news itself. When Jesus said, “My Kingdom is not of this world.”, the Jews rejected Him as their Savior.
.

 

[Oska2]

Oska,
. Thank you for the reply.
. What is historically supported by facts is the upheaval in Persia regarding the appearance of the Bab, in Elam, “in the year '60” (1260AH), which is significant to Muslims to whom their own prophecy stated relating to the appearance of the Qaim. That the figure 1260 appears repeatedly in the Bible, both in Daniel and Revelation, gives considerable weight to suggest that it may well be more than mere coincidence that such upheaval regarding the Promised One of Islam appearing in that year converges with the Messianic expectations of both Jews and Christians, particularly when all three religions supply “place” prophecies to the same region.

. Thus, it may be how we allow ourselves to look at the information given to us, rather than the news itself. When Jesus said, “My Kingdom is not of this world.”, the Jews rejected Him as their Savior.
.

Daler,
Thanks for the reply.
Jews, Christians & Muslims have a common history but differ strongly on who Jesus is.
This is the heart of the matter. Let me take you aside though I’d not have wished to go that direction. If you would inquire from those who communicate with the spiritual world eg ,magicians, witches, mediums, sorcerers etc you’d get some facts. Those people know where the true power is and they fear that power greatly. If you mention the name of Mohammad to them, they would not mind, the name of Baha’u’llah, no worry, the name of Abraham, no worry. But when you mention the name of Jesus, their power is paralyzed and they feel very uncomfortable. You may do a further research to prove my claim.
This is the main difference between the Jews, Christians & Muslims.

 

[daler]

Daler,
Thanks for the reply.
Jews, Christians & Muslims have a common history but differ strongly on who Jesus is.
This is the heart of the matter. Let me take you aside though I’d not have wished to go that direction. If you would inquire from those who communicate with the spiritual world eg ,magicians, witches, mediums, sorcerers etc you’d get some facts. Those people know where the true power is and they fear that power greatly. If you mention the name of Mohammad to them, they would not mind, the name of Baha’u’llah, no worry, the name of Abraham, no worry. But when you mention the name of Jesus, their power is paralyzed and they feel very uncomfortable. You may do a further research to prove my claim.
This is the main difference between the Jews, Christians & Muslims.

When living in Marrakech Morocco in 1974 a sat down beside a snake charmer of a Cobra, whose reflexes were so well honed that he could hypnotize the snake with his foot and little flute. He was quicker that Muhammad Ali and pulling his foot just out of harm’s way only an instant before the snake struck at his foot. The fear of God is great in that region. Our caravan across the Sahara desert was interrupted 5 times a day to receive the call to prayer who faithfully turned in the direction of Mecca and recited their prayers with humility before resuming their duties.

When Muhammad noticed the hostility of the Jews surrounding His direction of prayer to Jerusalem, traditionally unchanged for thousands of years, he was disturbed at their imprecations and insults. Suddenly the voice of the Angle Gabriel (the same Gabriel who appeared to Daniel the Prophet) told Him to change the Qablih to a direction favorable to thee. Hence, Mecca was chosen, for it is here that Abraham, and possibly Adam and Noah faced, in Their prayers.

Upon this change of the Qablih, some recanted their Faith and turned away, apostacising their Faith in the very middle of the prayer. Thus, God tested them and found them wanting, separating those who followed the Apostle from those who turned away: “Affrighted Asses fleeing from a lion…”

.

 

[Oska2]

When living in Marrakech Morocco in 1974 a sat down beside a snake charmer of a Cobra, whose reflexes were so well honed that he could hypnotize the snake with his foot and little flute. He was quicker that Muhammad Ali and pulling his foot just out of harm’s way only an instant before the snake struck at his foot. The fear of God is great in that region. Our caravan across the Sahara desert was interrupted 5 times a day to receive the call to prayer who faithfully turned in the direction of Mecca and recited their prayers with humility before resuming their duties.

When Muhammad noticed the hostility of the Jews surrounding His direction of prayer to Jerusalem, traditionally unchanged for thousands of years, he was disturbed at their imprecations and insults. Suddenly the voice of the Angle Gabriel (the same Gabriel who appeared to Daniel the Prophet) told Him to change the Qablih to a direction favorable to thee. Hence, Mecca was chosen, for it is here that Abraham, and possibly Adam and Noah faced, in Their prayers.

Upon this change of the Qablih, some recanted their Faith and turned away, apostacising their Faith in the very middle of the prayer. Thus, God tested them and found them wanting, separating those who followed the Apostle from those who turned away: “Affrighted Asses fleeing from a lion…”

.

daler,
For reference of where Adam, or Abraham or Noah lived, we can use the Bible as the Qur’an will not reveal much. Abraham was called by God from the land of Ur, in the present day Iraq. Adam & Noah who were his forefathers must have lived nearby in the same land of Iraq, and, at no one time did they pray facing Mecca. They even did not know if there was such a place as Mecca. David in Plsams calls it the ‘valley of Bacca’ through which pilgrims passed on their way to Jerusalem.

In a former posting, you mentioned that at Mecca there were 360 idols which Prophet Mohammed destroyed.
Consider this; the father of Prophet Mohammed was called Abd’allah, ie a servant of Allah.
This implied that Allah was worshiped before the advent of Islam. If the Arabs and the Sabeans of the Middle East were polytheists, who was Allah at that time?
Did Prophet Mohammed come up with a new name of a God that was unknown to the people of Mecca & Medina or he used one of the popular names of the 360 gods?

 

[daler]

daler,
For reference of where Adam, or Abraham or Noah lived, we can use the Bible as the Qur’an will not reveal much. Abraham was called by God from the land of Ur, in the present day Iraq. Adam & Noah who were his forefathers must have lived nearby in the same land of Iraq, and, at no one time did they pray facing Mecca. They even did not know if there was such a place as Mecca. David in Plsams calls it the ‘valley of Bacca’ through which pilgrims passed on their way to Jerusalem.

In a former posting, you mentioned that at Mecca there were 360 idols which Prophet Mohammed destroyed.
Consider this; the father of Prophet Mohammed was called Abd’allah, ie a servant of Allah.
This implied that Allah was worshiped before the advent of Islam. If the Arabs and the Sabeans of the Middle East were polytheists, who was Allah at that time?
Did Prophet Mohammed come up with a new name of a God that was unknown to the people of Mecca & Medina or he used one of the popular names of the 360 gods?

Oska,
. Thanks for the friendly dialogue. I am not a scholar, but open to historical references which strongly assert that Abraham built the altar in what is called Mecca in more modern times. For example:

. “The genuine antiquity of Caaba ascends beyond the Christian era: in describing the coast of the Red sea the Greek historian Diodorus has remarked, between the Thamudites and the Sabeans, a famous temple, whose superior sanctity was revered by all the Arabians; the linen of silken veil, which is annually renewed by the Turkish emperor, was first offered by the Homerites, who reigned seven hundred years before the time of Mohammad.”

—Edward Gibbon, Decline And Fall Of The Roman Empire, Volume V, pp. 223–224

Also:

. “The Quran states that Ibrahim, together with his son Ishmael, raised the foundations of the holy house.[Quran 2:127] Allah had shown Ibrahim the exact site, very near to the Well of Zamzam, where Ibrahim and Ishmael began work on the Kaaba’s construction in circa 2130 BC.[30] After Ibrahim had built the Kaaba, an angel brought to him the Black Stone, a celestial stone that, according to tradition, had fallen from Heaven on the nearby hill Abu Qubays.[31] According to a saying attributed to Muhammad, the Black Stone had “descended from Paradise whiter than milk but the sins of the sons of Adam had made it black”.[32] The Black Stone is believed to be the only remnant of the original structure made by Ibrahim.” from a Wikipedia link: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaaba

. The most ancient Name(s) of God that I am aware of would be El, Elah, Elohim, etc… and of course in the Arabic language Allah.

. People have this habit of reinventing a plurality of gods in the form of idols. That Allah, or Elah gets lost in the shuffle is, I think, beside the point. It is precisely because people keep reverting to their idols that God sends Abraham, or Moses, or Muhammad to destroy worship of false gods and to return to worship of the one God that is Unseen. “He is the prayer hearing, prayer answering God.” None of the idols which men create with their hands answers prayers.

. There is a basic logic beneath all of this which resonates in the soul, like a tuning fork which vibrates to another tuning fork of the same pitch when it is placed near it. We all have a kind of tuning fork within us which will resonate to the Words of God, Allah, Elah, the Great Spirit, when we “turn” towards this spiritual tuning fork, which may be likened to the Prophets, who resonate the Spirit of God in accordance with His will.

. That is my understanding.

.

 

[daler]

… It is precisely because people keep reverting to their idols that God sends Abraham, or Moses, or Muhammad to destroy worship of false gods …

PS He also sent Jesus to upset the tables of the money changers in “His Father’s House”

 

[Tommy555]

I think this is the right forum. I read my Bible every morning and evening, one chapter from the OT in the morning and one from NT in the evening, and I have reached The Book of Revelations and I did start to ponder about one thing. Why is “the end” so complicated?

If you look at the beginning, it was written to the seven churches for repentance, and that they might endure and persevere with hope. The book probably was not as much of a mystery to them as it is to us. It was written for us for the same reason. We now know the end and that we win in Christ. Therefore, we repent, endure, and persevere in hope.