Why is the Pope not married?

[Benadam]

You may be thinking of Fr. Ray Ryland - the first former Episcopal minister in the U.S. to be ordained to the Catholic priesthood under the Pastoral provision. More than 100 such men are now serving the U.S. Catholic Church. There are around 600 former Anglican ministers in England, some married, some not, who have been ordained as Catholic priests.

To my mind, as a former Protestant, the quibble against a celibate priesthood is a debate that simply cannot be won. There are pluses and minuses on both sides of the question but in the end, following in the footsteps of Our Lord simply trumps all else.

Here in Arizona at St Anne’s we have Fr Lorig. He is the seventh married Priest. He was an Episcopalean Priest.

 

[distracted]

So Christ was wrong!

huh, what?? Wrong about what??

 

[distracted]

Jesus never chose married priests.

yes he did. Peter was married…

 

[Hisalone]

yes he did. Peter was married…

Peter wasnt a priest, he was just a pope

 

[distracted]

. Personally I would loveto see the Latin Rite allow married men to the priesthood without a dispensation from the discipline.

this is interesting… because i now feel the same way… more or less. It would be great if most priests were celibate, but on the ohter hand, i am thinking that the Church should allow some to marry… Maybe there should be this rule that priests stay celibate for x numb of yrs… and then they can be married. .I don’t know… but some priests just stay in the priesthood & have a mistress… the bible itself says that “Many waters cannot quench love”… So why should two people who are in love just… kill their love, as it were…??

But celibacy is a very beautiful sacrifice men make for the Church. Married men are not as available tothe parish as celibate/unmarried men.

yes, but many people in the parish, well, they have families oftheir own… In other words, they have someone else they can turn to (for things other than sacraments…)… I don’t know… i just htink that priests should not necessarily be “forced” to remain celibate forever… maybe for a period of time, but not forever… they miss out on one of the the greatest joys of life… and some of them act like they are taking it out on the rest of us that they ARE missing out (Long stoyr… )…

if they were married they would be very divided and prone, like the rest of us men, to appease his wife.

not necessarily… and another thing that is not often brought up in this subject is that being married would make the priest a more well-rounded person, with his emotional needs more or less met by his wife… God is (sort of ) both male and female… One without the other is, to some extent or another, not “whole”… It is interesting to me that many outside the priesthood who are married, well, they want their priests and others to be celibate and alone… and yet they do not live that way and therefore, do not understand the things celibate people have to deal with… Maybe people should hold onto their virginity longer… and virgins should be celibate… but once someone has lost his/her virginity, well, let’s be real… things change…

 

[adstrinity]

yes he did. Peter was married…

Yes, and Peter was a fisherman, was he not? He was not a priest before he was chosen.

 

[melissa09]

I disagree with you distracted,

if priests have mistresses they should leave the priesthood and you can’t use what some, or very little priests did to argue that a celibate life isn’t good for the priesthood.

priests can have other great support systems - some even better than marrried men’s support systems (wife and kids). they have other priests and other religious people and their bishop. And they have their family too - like parents and siblings!

And yes marriage is one great joy of life - but a call to the priesthood is also a great joy to life and if a man is called to the priesthood he should answer that call and live his life for God instead of having to also worry about his wife and possible children.

There are also other ways to become a “well-rounded” person - even the challenges and struggles a person goes through can make them more well rounded, it doesn’t have to be a wife.

And FYI: I’m not a married person demanding my priest be unmarried. I am a single person who has even considered being a virgin for the rest of my life

 

[vocatio]

vocatio - you make some very good points that i agree with you on - except for allowing married priests. I just think its better that priests and other religious people dont marry so that they devout their entire lives to God and to serving Him.

I understand you and I agree to some degree. However, there has been quite a mess in the Church lately and allow some, and I mean only some married priests discern the priesthood, would be a way filling in the need. A need to give these poor priests a little break. I mean for example, my friend from the seminary has been a priest for 20 years now. He is supposed to get a sabatical every 7 years, to go for a long study and retreat. This would help rejuvinate the clergy, giving them new life. The problem with the clergy is the Catholic laity. The laity are having fewer children, abortions are up, even among catholics, and what’s left is not encouraged to discern the priesthood. IT’S OUR OWN FAULT!!! for the priest shortage. The monestaries and convents are nearly empty compared to what it used to be.

I live 2 blocks form a married Catholic priest. Sure, he was an anglican priest that converted with the pastoral [drawing blank - age and kids]. His entire parish converted. He is a good priest. Sure I would much prefer a celibate priesthood. But keep in mind that no bishop in the Orthodox Church or the Catholic Church today are married. Both understand that once you are ordained you can not get married again. That’s why those discerning the diaconate or required to go through formation for years and warned about this vow of celibacy.

My ponit is that the Church needs to go through a healing process. It’s my own fallible opinion. But it couldn’t be too off because there was a time when married men were allow to be ordainted to the clergy. Study the history of it. It’s really interesting. But also study the theology of it, keeping in context. Celibacy is a discipline that could be waive at the stroke of a pen. Just like Pope John Paul II, the Great, wanted to see the Orthodox and Catholic reunited, this may be something that could help. But the Orthodox also have the same beliefs about celibacy in the priesthood. If a single man is ordained to the priesthood, he alos takes vows to celibacy. He is not allowed to marry now.

 

[melissa09]

well im not saying that converts - like the man you talked about with a wife and kids have to give up their immediate family in order to join - thats a totally different scenario. what im saying is that those who are becoming priests (in the process) or those that are already unmarried ordained priests should remain unmarried (i think u agreed on that point?) i dont necessarily have a problem with converts who are married that join the priesthood. And yes Catholic familes aren’t having as many kids and there are abortions (which i hope Catholics aren’t doing anyway) but i think we first must do a better part of encouraging young men to join the priesthood – instead of letting priests get married. In my parish – i just finished religious education classes – we weren’t even encouraged about priesthood or religious life until this last year - and not much during that time. And unfortunately the kids in my class never considered that option because they thought they were too “cool” to do that and even worse too “cool” to go to mass or to form a close relationship with God. Which i know might be a fault on our CCD classes and the parents – but sadly I don’t think it is completely -

youth around the world are losing their faith - if we want more priests we’re going to have to solve this problem first!!

 

[vocatio]

well im not saying that converts - like the man you talked about with a wife and kids have to give up their immediate family in order to join - thats a totally different scenario. what im saying is that those who are becoming priests (in the process) or those that are already unmarried ordained priests should remain unmarried (i think u agreed on that point?) i dont necessarily have a problem with converts who are married that join the priesthood. And yes Catholic familes aren’t having as many kids and there are abortions (which i hope Catholics aren’t doing anyway) but i think we first must do a better part of encouraging young men to join the priesthood – instead of letting priests get married. In my parish – i just finished religious education classes – we weren’t even encouraged about priesthood or religious life until this last year - and not much during that time. And unfortunately the kids in my class never considered that option because they thought they were too “cool” to do that and even worse too “cool” to go to mass or to form a close relationship with God. Which i know might be a fault on our CCD classes and the parents – but sadly I don’t think it is completely -

youth around the world are losing their faith - if we want more priests we’re going to have to solve this problem first!!

Wow! You are very young if I’m reading correctly. I never said that ordained priests should be allowed to marry. That would and can not happen. The Catholic Church and Orthodox Church already know that. I’m talking about married men discerning a vocation to the priesthood. I don’t even thing that should be taken lightly either. I’m really clarifying for others that celibacy after ordination to the prieshood is a requirement and goes back to the early church as well. There’s lots of information that can be read. Another topic for another day.

What you don’t understand is that Parent’s, not the Church, are responsible for fostering vocations. The Church suppliments the chldren’s education, not the other way around. That IS Church teaching. I’m sorry you haven’t learned that correctly. As a former seminarian I know what it’s like to be mocked and scourned for wanting to become a holy person. I also know as a Protestant Christian what its like to be mocked “Period” for showing love for God, and others for that matter, i.e. putting God, family, others before career. My reversion opened my eyes to the poor catechesis I received in my youth. Back then the adults were dissenting on a wide scale. I didn’t realize it because I was young. However, I experienced many illicit and immoral things while Catholic and saw things I can’t speak about without scandal to someone. But I assure you, coming from a very active Protestant family through not only my mother but also my wife’s family, the scandals are ever as big if not worst. But that’s not an excuse, but more of a warning to those pointing the fingers at the Catholic Church. The clergy I know that acted immorally or illicitly have either changed or left the clergy/Catholic Church.

But parents have to foster vocations or we will continue to experience priest and religous shortages. Have you ever wondered why Catholic school tuition is so high now? That’s because there was an “Exodus” of priests and religious that abandoned the faith, left their vowed vocaions, etc. It’s a war almost fighting these folks that really don’t know Catholic teaching either. But now that God has led me back home to the Catholic Church with my family of 3 children and a wife we are trying to do our part. Our oldest son is considering the priesthood. My friend from the seminary just invited me to a missionary trip that I want to take our oldest son to. I’ve always wanted to do missionary work. This is the first time in my life I’ve had the opportunity that my wife felt open to allow me to participate since we’ve been married. He daddy was a bishop in the Church of Christ and her 2 oldest brothers are preachers. My wife was so upset with the leadership in her faith that she shied away from ministry for many years and would not support my desires to preach the gospel. However, since her conversion and her passion for the Catholic faith she is all for allowing me the opportunity to discern the diacoante. I just hope it’s not too late because of my age and the age of our chldren being so young [3 to 13].

see next post…

 

[vocatio]

Cont’d

Unfortunately, most Catholics use ABC and many have rejected their faith and sinned against God by abortion. Statistically I do not know for sure. But I am involved in the Pro-Life ministry in our Parish and Diocese. I am a 3rd Degree Knight and very active in our community. Don’t missunderstand my words when I say I think or feel that maybe ordaining married me to the priesthood is what I think the norm should be. On the contrary, married priests are predisposed to pleasing their wive’s just like the rest of us married men. It is our first priority. A priest’s vocaiton becomes secondary to his first vocation as a husband and a father. If he fails to ballance his responsibilities he is not serving anyone well or the the best of his abilities and may be virtually useless. That’s why I basically said that they could be used to releave some of the burden and be “tent makers” - meaning they have a normal job like me and instead of being a EMHC or sacristan or acolite, or music minister or what ever they can say masses, hear confessions, annoint the sick…administer the sacraments in shortage areas. Deacons can only do so much. But as the Church gets hold of Catechesis and the laity begin to follow the Church more devoutly we will see more vocations to the priesthood and religious life.

I could carry on more but need to go. I would love to share more, but I am at work trying to get a project out. I’ve already spent to much time on the matter. I just mean that this could relieve some of the burden off of our priests that need to take out time for their own spiritual growth. How would you feel to never be able to get away? We all need to be rejuvinated at times. My family’s near exhausted from no vacation in years. Maybe I can share more later.

“Preach the gospel always and when necessary use words”
St. Francis of Assisi
“To be ignorant of scripture is to be ignorant of Christ”
St. Jerome

PAX Christi tecum

 

[vocatio]

Let me reiterate something.

The Pope could never be married. Bishops must be celibate without wives. It’s impossible. Or if allowed they would be required to live celibate in their relationship. That just never really happens. There have been exceptions, but only for extenuating circumstances from why I understand. The Church has been haunted by some very sinful characters in the past and they have either repented or are paying the price as we speak.

 

[melissa09]

Vocatio, are you saying you want to be a priest or a deacon? Either way I now understand where you are coming from. And congrats on being a good parent that teaches their kids that a religious life IS AN OPTION (not that people are bad parents if they don’t - although it would be nice if they did). And I hope your son does become a priest - or at least chooses a job where he can use his faith in the work place – thats what I’m trying to do, if not pursue a religious vocation - then at least find a career that centers around my faith or one I can use my faith in it. I dislike your point about parents being the ones to encourage their kids to pursue a religious vocation - not because I disagree with you - but because i agree with you and that makes me sad!! Of all the Catholic families I know and of all the Catholic familes that are out there - only some of them are practicing Catholics and therefore the ones that aren’t wouldn’t encourage their kids to try a religious vocation or even get them to think about it - that’s sad. and that’s probably a big reason why there is a decline in the priesthood and in religious vocations !!! oh and yes, i am young - im seventeen

 

[mercygate]

Vocatio, are you saying you want to be a priest or a deacon? Either way I now understand where you are coming from. And congrats on being a good parent that teaches their kids that a religious life IS AN OPTION (not that people are bad parents if they don’t - although it would be nice if they did). And I hope your son does become a priest - or at least chooses a job where he can use his faith in the work place – thats what I’m trying to do, if not pursue a religious vocation - then at least find a career that centers around my faith or one I can use my faith in it. I dislike your point about parents being the ones to encourage their kids to pursue a religious vocation - not because I disagree with you - but because i agree with you and that makes me sad!! Of all the Catholic families I know and of all the Catholic familes that are out there - only some of them are practicing Catholics and therefore the ones that aren’t wouldn’t encourage their kids to try a religious vocation or even get them to think about it - that’s sad. and that’s probably a big reason why there is a decline in the priesthood and in religious vocations !!! oh and yes, i am young - im seventeen

Last year, before starting the CCD season, I prayed that the Lord would make at least 2 priests from my classes that year. As the year wore on, I spotted no fewer than FOUR boys, who showed exceptional gifts – sensitivities, decency of heart, minds alert to the content of our course. Privately, I took each of them aside and asked if he had ever considered becoming a Priest. All of 'em said they had not. I assured them that I do NOT say this to “all the boys” and asked them to think about it and pray about it. Who knows? Maybe a seed will take root?

 

[vocatio]

Vocatio, are you saying you want to be a priest or a deacon?

In 1989, I left the Church thinking I’d go to hell because of what I learned. Many priests were not helpful at all, especially in the military where their rank or whatever got in the way. I was planning on returning to the seminary at this time in my life. I still believe God meant for me to be a priest, however, with that stated, I must make myself clear. I do not want to be allowed to be a priest just for my feelings or whatever. I’m speaking purely on a personal pastoral preference. In 2004, before even considering coming home for sure, but it was there [long and complicated details required to understand and would probably bore you to death] for sure, I registered and posted a secret message reguarding the diaconate. I asked if I could become a deacon with a Protestant wife. The issue was not so much that she was Protestant but more so that she was anti-Catholic at the time. I think I already told you her daddy was a bishop. He was a very good man. He lived Franciscan and didn’t even realize it. He showed me things that confused me and when I sought pastoral help the priest just blew me off. The priest actually got mad at me…angry…because he knew I had a vocation to the priesthood. He knew because of my detailed story I had a calling…thus my username “vocatio”.

My father-in-law died at the age of 88, almost 89, in 2004. This started a whorlwind for us. Our elders appraoched us because of an email my wife sent that was a bit saucy…it was actually a nice email written respectfully to the new preacher that had given a “lesson” [bible class or sermon use] on evangelizing the poor lost people in the apartments. He called them apratment dwellers. Well, we’re in Texas and that translates to poor to middle class Hispanics…Catholics. That triggered me. But it particularly triggered my wife for some reason. Dad dies April 7, 2004, opening the doors for my wife. The death of our “partriarch” opened many doores. One of them was my son’s converstion. He feared for his life and wanted to be baptized for salvation. [Keep in mind that they don’t believe in 'faith only" or “grace only” or works save us but much like the Catholic Church] I baptized my oldest son in a Sunday in April 2004 at his request. It was a very happy day for all of us. However, once we “placed membership” with that congregation my wife and I were asked to speak to 2 of the elders. In the middle of the meeting, and against my wife’s wishes to even be there becuase she knew what was happening, we were drug over the coals. Why? Because women are never to usurp the authority of a man…ever! And I didn’t have my household together because I didn’t keep her in her place. Those words were not spoken, but they were there in treatment and we know what they believe.

Okay, we changed churches or congregations, but same faith. It was beginning to become very clear to me that we despirately need to convert to something other that what we were in. However, Baptist, Methodist, etc. were just not following the bible in our view…and we were correct I still believe. Anyway, the first “lesson” we heard was the preacher, who is not an elder or a deacon unless appointed by the bishops. Usually they were just hired ministers that have to walk a very careful line or else. He apparently had the approval for this lesson. He taught on the early Christian Creeds…guess what. He discussed in detail the “Apostles Creed” and then the “Nicen Creed”. This preacher did not study bible at one of the typical Bible schools, he studied at TCU. He even had us stand and recite it. I looked at my wife and said jokeningly “herresy”. I had a smerk on my face because I still remembered it after all those years, which blew my wife’s mind…she thought “how does he know this?” As we left she asked and I said that’s because Catholic say this all the time.

Fast forward…next post.

oh and yes, i am young - im seventeen

Your young enough to be our child. We about to celebrate our 19 anniversary.

 

[melissa09]

why would a priest get mad at you for having a call to the priesthood? your Catholic again now…am i right?

 

[melissa09]

Last year, before starting the CCD season, I prayed that the Lord would make at least 2 priests from my classes that year. As the year wore on, I spotted no fewer than FOUR boys, who showed exceptional gifts – sensitivities, decency of heart, minds alert to the content of our course. Privately, I took each of them aside and asked if he had ever considered becoming a Priest. All of 'em said they had not. I assured them that I do NOT say this to “all the boys” and asked them to think about it and pray about it. Who knows? Maybe a seed will take root?

A religious vocation was mentioned to me by a few adults in my parish. And im glad they mentioned it because that got me thinking…but at that time I was already growing in my faith and realizing my desire for a stronger relationship with God…so this mention made me truly consider that option, and still consider it – as im hoping it did with the boys you talked to – but if it was encouraged by parents or CCD teachers at a younger age and as the great option it is – and kids know of it and about it at an earlier age - wouldn’t that help more? because if people started to mention it to some of the other kids my age now – the kids would truly think they were crazy! sad again…

 

[vocatio]

why would a priest get mad at you for having a call to the priesthood? your Catholic again now…am i right?

he was mad at me when I asked what I wouldneed to marry a non- catholic. that was 19 years ago. I was in the military. And to clarify things. I am called to the diaconate. The priesthood is closed for me since the Church currently doesn’t allow it. But the Church can change the discipline if it chooses to. You are really young and have lots to learn about life in general. Things are not what the appear to be now.

I was considering becoming Orthodox while I was practicing a non-Catholic faith tradition. Let me give you a link. BND is a young man that just converted to Catholicism from our former faith. [he could use a young persons touch] He has a blog too. The COC…Church of Christ. Most of my family are not Catholic. In fact the Catholic are running amuck in my family too unfortunately. Let me say this clear so you do not get confused. As much as I would love to be able to become a priest, I am not seeking it anymore. I have a wife and 3 children and I understand the seriousness of my vocation. I ask God to send my children in my place…to distribute the gifts He’s given me to my children. The priesthood is a wonderful vocation. Sure it’s hard. But so is marriage and parenting. Not all priests are pastor material either. So a married man…“tent maker” …like some priests in the Orthodox Church and the Eastern Catholic Church, could fill in the gaps of traveling to that far off place on a Saturday and/or Sunday. He could even bring his family. But I would much prefer priests that are available to us…to serve our needs. Another function a married priest could do is say mass for a priest that was kept up all night at the foot of someone’s death bed, pastoring to the family. You see what I mean. I’m NOT lobbying for married priests anymore, like I initially did in my youth after leaving the seminary. You’d have to know the situation i was in during that time. I was only 18, almost 19. My former spiritual director is no longer a preist or rather to say it correctly, he is a laicized priest. He’s married now though. But Latin Catholic need to get over this thing that only single men can become priests. They just don’t understand the discipline behind it. Eastern Catholics are typically married priests. In fact, I’ve heard the that it is 90% married clergy. That’s all. Protestants don’t know this. If Latin or Roman Catholics don’t understand this, then how do we expect Protestant and non-Catholic sin general to know or understand it?

Oops. forgot this
coctocatholic.com/forum/
grigaitis.net/
I’ll looke up Stephanie’s board and post it. She has really good links. Look upt Bruce Sullivan on this forum. I’ve spoken directly to him and Fr. Serpa in the past. Bruce and I have a lot in common. I even contacted Fr. Benjamin Luther, another convert and much older now. All of these men, with expection to Fr. Serpa come from the same background. I’ve been strongly encoureaged to look into the diaconate by my pastor and friends. So I am discerning a vocation to the diaconate with my wife’s support. I was planning on becomming a Church of Christ preacher in 2003. But that’s when lots of things started to happen and impacted our convesion. I had a scholarship with ACU in the works, but God stepped in and called us home.

 

[vocatio]

why would a priest get mad at you for having a call to the priesthood? your Catholic again now…am i right?

You got something mixed up in the translation. But that’s okay. I’m discerning a vocation to the permanent diaconate, not the priesthood. If the Church reliesed the discipline to only allowing non-married men to the priesthood, I would serioiusly consider it, but only if my wife supported it. I’m most speaking theory here.

But we, Latin or Roman Catholics, need to learn more about our Eastern brothers and sisters, both Orthodox and our Byzantine or Eastern Catholics in communion with Rome. The overwhelming majority of their priests are married at the time of ordination to the priesthood and the diaconate. I believe I read about 90%. It’s really high. 20% of all Catholic priests are married. That’s a statistical fact that I found I believe here on CAF or another orthodox website. I am more drawn to the Eastern Catholic side than the Latin Catholic liturgy. I love the Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Divine Liturgy. They look more like most of the Early Church liturgy that was celebrated in the beginning of the Church. Someone taught me even a little more recently on the subject that is Orthodox. I think it was Mickey. Anyway, my wife avoids the Eastern Catholic because the they are much like the Orthodox and the Orthodox we know carried their Protestant ways with them to the Orhtodox Church and act just as …let’s just not fill that in. Anyway, she doesn’t like their behavior or attitudes from our experience. She read the emails sent to me by some of the priests. They sounded very rude…almost mean.

 

[melissa09]

okay, that makes much more since - though I am very sad there is such a difference between Latin and Eastern Catholics. I am not to familiar with the differences - but im hoping we are still very similiar??? besides the whole married thing. Aparently you edited your last post - i was trying to reply to it and then it disappeared – but i did notice the part about me being really young and having a lot to learn about life in general (something like that) which i find kind of funny – maybe i shouldnt have told you my age so you wouldn’t use that against me?? im not oblivious to society and whats going on around me - im not that kind of a teenager. and ive had struggles of my own that have taught me a lot about life - so please don’t say that (thats probably why you edited it, but i am not very knowledgable about the differences between Eastern and Latin Catholics as mentioned above (maybe because im young? im just kidding) so I dont know why their is such a difference in this discipline, but i do prefer unmarried priests - though like mentioned before understand married converts - such as protestant pastors - are an exception. sorry i didnt understand your last post about the diaconate.