Why is the US Catholic church so obsessed with the gay issue?

[catholic1seeks]

The Catholic Church claims to be an instrument of God that can** infallibly discern objective truth;** truth that is independent of the church’s opinion or wishes. If the church says something is true, and then changes its mind and says it was wrong, then the church logically cannot be infallible.

Christians who are in my position see there being a big difference between the Church’s ability to proclaim central truths of the faith infallibly – like the nature of God, Christ, and the Eucharist – and the assumption that every single thing that comes out of Rome is without error and is on equal footing. (Of course this is simplistic; every learned Catholic would agree that teachings are categorized differently and not all are infallible). But the existence and nature of the Holy Trinity is simply not on the same level as the morality of expressed love between two homosexual persons. It is not EITHER the Church is infallible or it is not; rather, the issue is which teachings are actually able to develop, and to what extent, based on our greater understanding?

 

[Murmurs]

The Catholic Church claims to be an instrument of God that can** infallibly discern objective truth;** truth that is independent of the church’s opinion or wishes. If the church says something is true, and then changes its mind and says it was wrong, then the church logically cannot be infallible.

I agree and that wasn’t quitewhat I meant! What I ought to have said is that while trusting to the Church’s capacities in this field, it doesn’t mean we have to think it makes consistent sense.

(I’m being the devil’s advocate again, of course. But the most concrete prohibition on homosexual activity is in the middle of a wider section, or even book, about the ideal cultural mores of the Judean people in the 7th to 5th centuries BC. By no means do I think this makes what we gain from it suspect, just more something interesting to think about, really)

 

[estesbob]

Christians who are in my position see there being a big difference between the Church’s ability to proclaim central truths of the faith infallibly – like the nature of God, Christ, and the Eucharist – and the assumption that every single thing that comes out of Rome is without error and is on equal footing. (Of course this is simplistic; every learned Catholic would agree that teachings are categorized differently and not all are infallible). But the existence and nature of the Holy Trinity is simply not on the same level as the morality of expressed love between two homosexual persons. It is not EITHER the Church is infallible or it is not; rather, the issue is which teachings are actually able to develop, and to what extent, based on our greater understanding?

The Church’s teachings on homosexuality is doctrine-just the same as their teaching on the Trinity, the resurrection , the Eucharist et al. All of us are called to express our love for each other-we can not, however, express that love in a sinful way. In fact love NEVER expresses itself through sin.

 

[Thorolfr]

In fact love NEVER expresses itself through sin.

I agree with this statement which is why I’m convinced that when two people of the same sex do express their love for each other sexually, it’s not a sin.

 

[Rau]

I agree with this statement which is why I’m convinced that when two people of the same sex do express their love for each other sexually, it’s not a sin.

So, in a context of love, no wrong can be done?

 

[estesbob]

I agree with this statement which is why I’m convinced that when two people of the same sex do express their love for each other sexually, it’s not a sin.

Actually its not love

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

Christians who are in my position see there being a big difference between the Church’s ability to proclaim central truths of the faith infallibly – like the nature of God, Christ, and the Eucharist – and the assumption that every single thing that comes out of Rome is without error and is on equal footing. (Of course this is simplistic; every learned Catholic would agree that teachings are categorized differently and not all are infallible). But the existence and nature of the Holy Trinity is simply not on the same level as the morality of expressed love between two homosexual persons. It is not EITHER the Church is infallible or it is not; rather, the issue is which teachings are actually able to develop, and to what extent, based on our greater understanding?

Many non-Catholics reject infallibility. That’s their choice. They essentially have the luxury of choosing what they want to accept and rejecting anything that does not fit into their ideal. Catholics, on the other hand, are bound to not only accept that which is infallibly …but also to BELIEVE it

Only two doctrines have been declared infallible–(ex cathedra), but there are many others that the church professes must be believed. Some of these are laid out in the 1998 “Commentary on the Concluding Formula of the Professio fidei” issued by then-Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

According to this document, many teachings are “irreformable” and “definitive” and as such can be seen as possessing the binding quality of an infallible doctrine, although not necessarily proclaimed ex cathedra. That is, they aren’t promulgated by the pope himself but by the larger magisterium of the church. The lineup of “irreformable” teachings—ones divinely revealed—include those regarding Jesus, Mary, sin and grace, the sacraments, the primacy of the pope, and the doctrinal formulations of the ancient creeds.

The lineup of “definitive” teachings on faith and morals—ones the church holds to be logically derived from divine revelation—include teachings such as the doctrine of papal infallibility, the immorality of abortion and euthanasia, the communion of saints, and others. Assent of “intellect and will” to both categories of teachings are required for full communion with the Catholic Church.

In other words, if you don’t BELIEVE these teachings you are a Catholic-in-name-only (CINO)

 

[Thorolfr]

Actually its not love

So what exactly is “love”? What makes sexual expression between a married opposite sex couple “love” but not between a same-sex couple?

 

[Mark121359]

I believe the title of this thread is misleading. When I think of the Church, the Bishop of Rome , the Roman Curia, the College of Cardinals etc. comes to mind. Not Catholic Answers Live, EWTN, Catholic bloggers, etc. With the exception of maybe a few bishops and cardinals in Germany, I’m not seeing this “obsession.” When you really give this some thought, who’s really obsessed with homosexuality? is it the church?..or is it this hyper-sexed secularist society we now live in? My money is on the latter, not the former.

Peace, Mark

 

[catholic1seeks]

Many non-Catholics reject infallibility. That’s their choice. They essentially have the luxury of choosing what they want to accept and rejecting anything that does not fit into their ideal. Catholics, on the other hand, are bound to not only accept that which is infallibly …but also to BELIEVE it

Only two doctrines have been declared infallible–(ex cathedra), but there are many others that the church professes must be believed. Some of these are laid out in the 1998 “Commentary on the Concluding Formula of the Professio fidei” issued by then-Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

According to this document, many teachings are “irreformable” and “definitive” and as such can be seen as possessing the binding quality of an infallible doctrine, although not necessarily proclaimed ex cathedra. That is, they aren’t promulgated by the pope himself but by the larger magisterium of the church. The lineup of “irreformable” teachings—ones divinely revealed—include those regarding Jesus, Mary, sin and grace, the sacraments, the primacy of the pope, and the doctrinal formulations of the ancient creeds.

The lineup of “definitive” teachings on faith and morals—ones the church holds to be logically derived from divine revelation—include teachings such as the doctrine of papal infallibility, the immorality of abortion and euthanasia, the communion of saints, and others. Assent of “intellect and will” to both categories of teachings are required for full communion with the Catholic Church.

In other words, if you don’t BELIEVE these teachings you are a Catholic-in-name-only (CINO)

But, yes, the Trinity is not on equal footing with the moral doctrine on homosexuality?

Some non-Roman Catholics in the world may be more Catholic than those who attend Mass, if they so love God and are in a state of grace. If you are telling me that I must accept the teaching on homosexuality to be in full communion with the Church, then I guess that means I am not in full communion. None of us is perfect; none of us loves perfectly or understands everything perfectly or adheres to every teaching with the same confidence. I do not think this makes me any less of a follower of Christ.

 

[catholic1seeks]

I believe the title of this thread is misleading. When I think of the Church, the Bishop of Rome , the Roman Curia, the College of Cardinals etc. comes to mind. Not Catholic Answers Live, EWTN, Catholic bloggers, etc. With the exception of maybe a few bishops and cardinals in Germany, I’m not seeing this “obsession.” When you really give this some thought, who’s really obsessed with homosexuality? is it the church?..or is it this hyper-sexed secularist society we now live in? My money is on the latter, not the former.

Peace, Mark

Then that is an issue because the Church is primarily the entire people of God – not just the magisterium. The American church expresses itself in these outlets that I mentioned in my first post.

 

[Rau]

Christians who are in my position see there being a big difference between the Church’s ability to proclaim central truths of the faith infallibly – like the nature of God, Christ, and the Eucharist – and the assumption that every single thing that comes out of Rome is without error and is on equal footing. (Of course this is simplistic; every learned Catholic would agree that teachings are categorized differently and not all are infallible). But the existence and nature of the Holy Trinity is simply not on the same level as the morality of expressed love between two homosexual persons. It is not EITHER the Church is infallible or it is not; rather, the issue is which teachings are actually able to develop, and to what extent, based on our greater understanding?

You are not seeking “development” but wholesale reversal on matters taught consistently from the beginning of the Church, and despite explanation that the Church states that teaching taught in such manner are infallible. You continue to repeat a personal view about the nature of Church teaching that is without foundation.

We are not talking about “expressed love” in its generality, but about sexual acts between persons.

 

[estesbob]

So what exactly is “love”? What makes sexual expression between a married opposite sex couple “love” but not between a same-sex couple?

One is the fulfillment of Gods purpose for men and women. The other mocks Gods purpose for men and women. You might as well ask if masturbation is licit as long as one is expressing their love for themselves.

 

[estesbob]

But, yes, the Trinity is not on equal footing with the moral doctrine on homosexuality?

.

Of course it is. One simply can not pick and choose which teachings they want to believe(at least if one is a Catholic).

 

[catholic1seeks]

Of course it is. One simply can not pick and choose which teachings they want to believe(at least if one is a Catholic).

Have you ever heard of the hierarchy of truths in Catholic doctrine?

You can assert both are true. But they are not on equal footing.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

I agree and that wasn’t quitewhat I meant! What I ought to have said is that while trusting to the Church’s capacities in this field, it doesn’t mean we have to think it makes consistent sense.

It may not make sense but, **assent of “intellect and will” **to irreformable and definitive teachings of the Church are required for full communion with the Catholic Church.

(I’m being the devil’s advocate again, of course. But the most concrete prohibition on homosexual activity is in the middle of a wider section, or even book, about the ideal cultural mores of the Judean people in the 7th to 5th centuries BC. By no means do I think this makes what we gain from it suspect, just more something interesting to think about, really)

It is interesting, historically, to think about what went on in 7th to 5th centuries BC. But we must remember that we are Christians not Jews. Culture mores and Mosaic Law do not apply to us. We can eat all the shellfish we want…and Hebrew National hot dogs too.

 

[Rau]

But, yes, the Trinity is not on equal footing with the moral doctrine on homosexuality?

Some non-Roman Catholics in the world may be more Catholic than those who attend Mass, if they so love God and are in a state of grace. If you are telling me that I must accept the teaching on homosexuality to be in full communion with the Church, then I guess that means I am not in full communion. None of us is perfect; none of us loves perfectly or understands everything perfectly or adheres to every teaching with the same confidence. I do not think this makes me any less of a follower of Christ.

All can doubt - doubts are involuntary and not imputable. But to intentionally cultivate and promote doubt in oneself or others is wrong.

 

[edwest2]

Love wins. is a slogan I’ve seen. Love does not mean any kind of sex between two individuals is licit. God made a plan for us. For our benefit, and which is revealed by our bodies. Ignoring God’s plan creates disorder, and for Catholics, at least - that’s sin.

Some believe man’s mind will ‘evolve’ and even replace laws that are written in our hearts as they were long ago. God put them there.

Best,
Ed

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

But, yes, the Trinity is not on equal footing with the moral doctrine on homosexuality?

Who said that?

Church doctrines are not classified in order of importance or relevance. They are doctrines and we must assent to them with both intellect and will.

If you are telling me that I must accept the teaching on homosexuality to be in full communion with the Church, then I guess that means I am not in full communion.

That’s about the size of it. …and I am not being judgmental.

 

[catholic1seeks]

Who said that?

Church doctrines are not classified in order of importance or relevance. They are doctrines and we must assent to them with both intellect and will.

That’s about the size of it. …and I am not being judgmental.

Catechism:
90 The mutual connections between dogmas, and their coherence, can be found in the whole of the Revelation of the mystery of Christ.51 “In Catholic doctrine there exists an order or hierarchy of truths, since they vary in their relation to the foundation of the Christian faith.”

Pope Francis:
35. Pastoral ministry in a missionary style is not obsessed with the disjointed transmission of a multitude of doctrines to be insistently imposed. When we adopt a pastoral goal and a missionary style which would actually reach everyone without exception or exclusion, the message has to concentrate on the essentials, on what is most beautiful, most grand, most appealing and at the same time most necessary. The message is simplified, while losing none of its depth and truth, and thus becomes all the more forceful and convincing.

1. All revealed truths derive from the same divine source and are to be believed with the same faith, yet some of them are more important for giving direct expression to the heart of the Gospel. In this basic core, what shines forth is the beauty of the saving love of God made manifest in Jesus Christ who died and rose from the dead. In this sense, the Second Vatican Council explained, “in Catholic doctrine there exists an order or a ‘hierarchy’ of truths, since they vary in their relation to the foundation of the Christian faith”.[38] This holds true as much for the dogmas of faith as for the whole corpus of the Church’s teaching, including her moral teaching.
2. Saint Thomas Aquinas taught that the Church’s moral teaching has its own “hierarchy”, in the virtues and in the acts which proceed from them.[39] What counts above all else is “faith working through love” (Gal 5:6). Works of love directed to one’s neighbour are the most perfect external manifestation of the interior grace of the Spirit: “The foundation of the New Law is in the grace of the Holy Spirit, who is manifested in the faith which works through love”.[40] Thomas thus explains that, as far as external works are concerned, mercy is the greatest of all the virtues: “In itself mercy is the greatest of the virtues, since all the others revolve around it and, more than this, it makes up for their deficiencies. This is particular to the superior virtue, and as such it is proper to God to have mercy, through which his omnipotence is manifested to the greatest degree”.[41]