Why Is the Vatican Necessary For Our Faith?

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This morning I saw the latest news article about Vatican corruption (in this case a hospital scandal). I realize any Church needs some authority & structure - but why is the Vatican city state, bank, curia, etc required? I believe an entirely new structure is needed. The various national bishops conferences should control almost all finances and administration, and meet periodically (Councils) to set overall Church positions on theology and other issues. The Pope would be the international spokesman of the Church, the “first among equals” of the bishops - still a very important figure as the face of the Church, as a moral authority, etc. He would not preside over some vast, uncontrollable “government” as he does now - his concerns in that regard would only have to be for his Diocese as Bishop Of Rome. Such changes would not diminish the truthfullness of the Catholic faith, and would eliminate a lot of corruption that has been going on for centuries.
 
When the bishops disagree under first among equals, who has the authority of Peter to settle the dispute?

The church was set up this way by Jesus for a reason
 
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mattp0625 said:
When the bishops disagree under first among equals, who has the authority of Peter to settle the dispute?
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I don’t think that the OP is talking about the pope as a person, so much as he is thinking about the whole bureaucracy of the curia in general. (@GUYMAN, let me know if I’m misstating your position!)

However, even if there are some inefficiencies in the Vatican (and let’s be frank – every bureaucracy breeds its own inefficiencies, and the longer it’s in existence, the more byzantine its structure becomes!), there are still necessary functions on behalf of the universal Church.

If we were to scuttle the Vatican, then we’d simply be creating multiple mini-Vaticans around the world: this function over here in this country, and that function over there in that country. What we’d end up with is particular countries controlling particular ecclesiastical functions… and I don’t think that’s a side effect that would be beneficial. (How’s that old joke go? “Heaven is where the police are British, the lovers French, the mechanics German, the chefs Italian, and it is all organized by the Swiss. Hell is where the police are German, the lovers Swiss, the mechanics French, the chefs British, and it is all organized by the Italians.”)

I don’t think it would be good to pigeonhole functions by region / bishops’ conference. 🤷‍♂️
 
Local bishops DO control the vast majority of finances. At least in terms of offerings given by the faithful in the pews…
The Vatican City State, the Roman Curia, etc. is not intrinsic to our faith. We can criticize how they function. They do serve a purpose but yes there have been and are issues. When Pope Francis was first elected there was a lot of talk about his plan to clean up the Curia. I simply can’t speak to how successful he was or wasn’t…
That the Pope exercises primacy among the bishops IS intrinsic to our faith. That can’t change. How that primacy is exercised has evolved over time and can evolve again in the future.
 
No human organization is perfect.

I read so many accusations of ‘wrong’ being done in the Curia, yet on closer examination, the reports offer very little objective evidence, just a lot of speculation. And I read very little about the GOOD the Curia does.

Yes, ‘wrong’ happens in any human organization. But I continue to believe that much, much more good is done than wrong in the Vatican City State.
 
GUYMAN said:
This morning I saw the latest news article about Vatican corruption (in this case a hospital scandal). I realize any Church needs some authority & structure - but why is the Vatican city state, bank, curia, etc required? I believe an entirely new structure is needed. The various national bishops conferences should control almost all finances and administration, and meet periodically (Councils) to set overall Church positions on theology and other issues. The Pope would be the international spokesman of the Church, the “first among equals” of the bishops - still a very important figure as the face of the Church, as a moral authority, etc. He would not preside over some vast, uncontrollable “government” as he does now - his concerns in that regard would only have to be for his Diocese as Bishop Of Rome. Such changes would not diminish the truthfullness of the Catholic faith, and would eliminate a lot of corruption that has been going on for centuries.
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So, in other words, you want the Church to be structured a bit like a democratic state or international organisation? Because you think that will exterminate corruption?

Do you think corruption is unheard of in democratic states and international organisations? 🙂
 
What you are objecting to is human nature. Consider that such embarrassment may very well be intended to test our faith and loyalty. It is clearly testing yours. The Church has survived far, far worse times in her history. Far worse scandals. As to being a city-state, as many disadvantages as it brings, it gives the Church a voice in world affairs, such as at the UN, for example. We would have no voice at all other wise. The hierarchy, well, that was established by our Lord. I dare not call His judgment into question - rather my own views must be challenged.

I find that faith is most deeply challenged when we look outside of ourselves when the opposite should be true. As we look left and right, we see sinners whose actions cause us disappointment. But, consider also what those around us see: our sinful selves! it is a grace that we cannot read minds.

We should look up - to the perfection of God, rather than left and right, only to be discouraged and disappointed.
 
GUYMAN said:
I realize any Church needs some authority & structure - but why is the Vatican city state, bank, curia, etc required?
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Because throughout history, secular States have always tried to control the Church, as we see even today in places like China where the Church has had to go underground, and the State has set up its own State-controlled rival Church. The only way for the Church to be truly free is for the Pope, at least, to reside in his own State, where he cannot be controlled by any secular power.
 
I think you need to research the history of the papacy. What you suggest is the way it was. It took almost a millennia for the authority of the papacy to centralize. And even the it was pressured by political leaders. Prior to centralizing and from the time of the Nicene Synod their where frequent multiple interpretations of even basic beliefs and theologies by various bishops and rulers who did not agree with the Bishop of Rome(later the Pope). Some resulted in splits within the Church, excommunication and political intrigues. At times there were several people claiming to be Pope at the same time. These were usually because of support of different political leaders and factions. It wasn’t till the end of the first millennia that stopped the practice of lay people, international politicians and of course clergy voted on who would be Pope. And the person selected did not have to be clergy. The centralized system was in itself a reformation to correct abuses. Your question is not only a great one but stirs the imagination and requires an in depth discussion:crazy_face:😀:crazy_face:. Just bouncig a “Reply” is not enough!
 
Actually, the Holy See has sovereignty regardless of whether the physical Vatican City State exists. The Holy See as a sovereign entity long predates the modern City State. Of course without the City State, it would be reduced to a sovereign entity without the safety blanket of territory… much like the Order of Malta since they lost the island of Malta a few centuries ago…
 
The Vatican is not strictly necessary for our faith - it is the headquarters of the faith. Either it is headquartered somewhere, and has a “CEO” or it is chaos. Christ knew our human nature rather well.

Think of it as the anchor of the barque of Peter.
 
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There is an inherent flaw in the RCC hierarchy. And that is the Church, regardless of what diocese you are talking about (anything from Boise to Brisbane and everywhere in between) does not make or sell anything. It does nothing to generate revenue but simply ask for it from the laity. This leads to people with little or no experience in the generation of revenue, poor financial skills who feel that “oh we can do this and if we need more money, we’ll just take up another collection.” When people are of that mindset, there are invariably going to be financial mismanagement, corruption, and scandal.

As other posters have said, that has nothing to do with the structure of the deposit of faith and its expression.
 
Actually the Vatican generates a lot of its income from real estate and other commercial incomes.
 
Yes and no. The Bishop of Rome could exercise primacy without the specific modern structures of the Vatican City State or Roman Curia.
 
You could re arrange the Vatican to operate any which way you choose, to think that a rearrangement would thusly eliminate a lot of corruption that has been going on for centuries isn’t possible, where there is money and power, not matter how big or small, there is the chance for greed and corruption. Temptation at the highest level.

If you are more concerned with ending corruption or limiting it, then you have to have an independent commity , council, police force, something; where influencing them through bribes is going to be very hard to do, and they have the ability to investigate and make a final verdict that can then be handed over to the Pope directly for him to decide what to do with the findings.
 
twf said:
Actually the Vatican generates a lot of its income from real estate and other commercial incomes.
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True, but it is what is done with revenue that is my point. People who do not invest themselves financially, usually don’t have the requisite business skills to manage funds well. Some do, but when the general thought concerning the generation of needed revenue is, “we’ll just ask for more; take up another collection from the laity” it leads to incompetence in many, many cases.
 
You could re arrange the Vatican to operate any which way you choose, to
think that a rearrangement would thusly eliminate a lot of corruption
that has been going on for centuries isn’t possible, where there is
money and power, not matter how big or small, there is the chance for
greed and corruption. Temptation at the highest level.
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Judas held the purse. John 12:6
 
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The sky is where Heaven is right? Then separating us (who cannot fly) from that place is “something” requiring a key. That key was provided to St. Peter and there you have it. There has to be a strong spiritual connection to heaven where St. Peter finished preaching which was in Rome.
 
k i dunno if you are agreeing with me or what, but yes Judas held the purse John 12:6, golf claps.
 
Love of money and power, and the betrayal of Christ began in the early Church. We suffer only from hearing about the latest chapter in this on-going saga.
 
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