Why is their lagging Interest in the OF?

[Robert_Burns]

When I was in Rome last year I noticed so many Churches that were nearly empty for Mass. What has happened to Mass attendance? I see numerous posts on here asking if there is enough “demand” for the EF - but in my opinion - there seems to be a diminishing demand for the OF. Especially in Europe. Perhaps the need for more EF Masses is becoming more and more evident. Maybe the need is greater in Europe. But there is a need. Why wait until all is lost?

Pax

 

[OraLabora]

Europe has a declining Christian population (not enough babies!) and is secularizing at an alarming rate. I doubt you can put much blame on EF vs OF. I mean after all what is wrong with an OF Mass at St. Peters, in Latin, accompanied by Gregorian chant???

 

[Robert_Burns]

Europe has a declining Christian population (not enough babies!) and is secularizing at an alarming rate. I doubt you can put much blame on EF vs OF. I mean after all what is wrong with an OF Mass at St. Peters, in Latin, accompanied by Gregorian chant???

Well I think that if the OF Continues to Decline perhaps a return to the EF predominately is worth trying .

 

[Phemie]

Well I think that if the OF Continues to Decline perhaps a return to the EF predominately is worth trying .

I doubt very much that offering the EF is going to bring back people who don’t think going to Mass is important. Most younger people I talk to, and even many people my age (50+) see no reason to go to Mass, period. It’s just not important to them. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the language or the form the Mass takes.

 

[Magnus467]

There is a lagging interest in faith and Mass not just the OF. The OF is not causing the world to end.

 

[MarkThompson]

Rome also has a disproportionately humongous number of churches in the first place, which means that attendance at any given Mass will look scarcer than if there were, say, a quarter as many churches in the city.

 

[Lycorth]

Indeed, it’s a lagging interest in religion in general in a world rife with secularism that is to blame.

That said, the introduction of the Ordinary Form of the Mass obviously failed to revitalize the Church.

Rome also has a disproportionately humongous number of churches in the first place, which means that attendance at any given Mass will look scarcer than if there were, say, a quarter as many churches in the city.

Which wouldn’t appear to be much of a problem if Christians weren’t a diminishing community. I’m sure those churches had plenty of worshipers in elder times.

 

[Robert_Burns]

I doubt very much that offering the EF is going to bring back people who don’t think going to Mass is important. Most younger people I talk to, and even many people my age (50+) see no reason to go to Mass, period. It’s just not important to them. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the language or the form the Mass takes.

Robert: Then why is the EF more widely supported where offered. I know a lot of people my age (50 +) also who stopped going to the Church when they did away with the EF intitially. And where it is offered today - it has been a success. in fact - the fact that we have a forum on Catholic answers and peoiple here are in here every day discussing it proves that to be true. Would we be having this conversation 10 years ago here? Obviously not. The youth today are the future of the Church. Do we want more of the same or do we want a rebirth. I think the answer to that question is obvious.

 

[Lycorth]

Robert: Then why is the EF more widely supported where offered. I know a lot of people my age (50 +) also who stopped going to the Church when they did away with the EF intitially. And where it is offered today - it has been a success. in fact - the fact that we have a forum on Catholic answers and peoiple here are in here every day discussing it proves that to be true. Would we be having this conversation 10 years ago here? Obviously not. The youth today are the future of the Church. Do we want more of the same or do we want a rebirth. I think the answer to that question is obvious.

Amen.

 

[Redratfish]

Robert: Then why is the EF more widely supported where offered. I know a lot of people my age (50 +) also who stopped going to the Church when they did away with the EF intitially. And where it is offered today - it has been a success. in fact - the fact that we have a forum on Catholic answers and peoiple here are in here every day discussing it proves that to be true. Would we be having this conversation 10 years ago here? Obviously not. The youth today are the future of the Church. Do we want more of the same or do we want a rebirth. I think the answer to that question is obvious.

My problem with this is that you aren’t thinking of the average teen (which is the future of any Church). Many teens these days think that mass should be “fun” (i use to be one of these). They will go to Catholic Church with their parents, but then go to their Protestant friends for a “more fun” church. Switching to the EF will cause teens to lose interest in Church completely. For many (or even sadly, most) teens even OF is boring. Its a fact, ask the average Catholic off the street, and they will tell you so.

If we toss in Latin again, make the priest face away from the congregation, and other things that accompany the EF mass, most Catholics will find that even more boring, the hard core Catholics will find it more reverent, but if you aren’t into the whole “latin is more holier than English”, feeling, it will seem more boring. Its common sense.

Don’t bother saying that since the EF is more reverent (which itself is up for debate), more people will join, and those who aren’t going now, will start. They won’t. As a teen myself, I know how todays teens think and want. They want to be entertained, not reverent.

While I agree that switching back to the EF MIGHT help, we WILL experience a lost generation. Teens (except for hard core Catholics as myself) WILL lose interest. If enough lose interest, and we don’t have enough second generation Catholics, then we will be lost.

Source-
Myself and countless discussions with my Catholic and “Catholic” friends.

 

[mick321]

My problem with this is that you aren’t thinking of the average teen (which is the future of any Church). Many teens these days think that mass should be “fun” (i use to be one of these). They will go to Catholic Church with their parents, but then go to their Protestant friends for a “more fun” church. Switching to the EF will cause teens to lose interest in Church completely. For many (or even sadly, most) teens even OF is boring. Its a fact, ask the average Catholic off the street, and they will tell you so.

If we toss in Latin again, make the priest face away from the congregation, and other things that accompany the EF mass, most Catholics will find that even more boring, the hard core Catholics will find it more reverent, but if you aren’t into the whole “latin is more holier than English”, feeling, it will seem more boring. Its common sense.

Don’t bother saying that since the EF is more reverent (which itself is up for debate), more people will join, and those who aren’t going now, will start. They won’t. As a teen myself, I know how todays teens think and want. They want to be entertained, not reverent.

While I agree that switching back to the EF MIGHT help, we WILL experience a lost generation. Teens (except for hard core Catholics as myself) WILL lose interest. If enough lose interest, and we don’t have enough second generation Catholics, then we will be lost.

Source-
Myself and countless discussions with my Catholic and “Catholic” friends.

Sad.
Very sad.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Robert: Then why is the EF more widely supported where offered. I know a lot of people my age (50 +) also who stopped going to the Church when they did away with the EF intitially. And where it is offered today - it has been a success. in fact - the fact that we have a forum on Catholic answers and peoiple here are in here every day discussing it proves that to be true. Would we be having this conversation 10 years ago here? Obviously not. The youth today are the future of the Church. Do we want more of the same or do we want a rebirth. I think the answer to that question is obvious.

Don’t forget the ration of OF vs EF Masses in a given location. If there are 10,000 Catholics in a diocese and lets give a generous 10% of them adhere to the EF. Thats 1000 Catholics who would go to one EF Mass anywhere in the Diocese. Then say there’s 18 OF parishes around the diocese which would only have an average of 500 people per Sunday. I’m sure if you offer the EF in all 18 parishes, you’d see very few people attending the EF and surmise that people are not attending the EF. But since the EF is only celebrated in 1 or 2 parishes per diocese, there is a wider “audience” for one parish.

 

[OraLabora]

Robert: Then why is the EF more widely supported where offered. I know a lot of people my age (50 +) also who stopped going to the Church when they did away with the EF intitially. And where it is offered today - it has been a success. in fact - the fact that we have a forum on Catholic answers and peoiple here are in here every day discussing it proves that to be true. Would we be having this conversation 10 years ago here? Obviously not. The youth today are the future of the Church. Do we want more of the same or do we want a rebirth. I think the answer to that question is obvious.

Is it really causing a rebirth in the Faith, or is causing the small core of truly faithful (including young folks) to coalesce around the one place in their area offering the EF? If there are 10 local parishes of 500 people, and of those 500, maybe 100 are “hard core” who show up at one of say, the two Masses offered each Sunday, and of the rest, most don’t bother or are so lukewarm that maybe only an additional 20 or so show up, that means at any given Mass there’d only be about 60 people; something I’ve seen in many parishes when our choir sings. If we assume that in the lukewarm group, and from the “no longer goes to Mass group”, perhaps 20 are traditionalists who would show up at EF Mass regularly, and we assume that of those 10 parishes, one offers an EF Mass, and it’s close enough that the traditionalist of the other neighbouring parishes can go, then you have 200 people showing up at the EF Mass as opposed to 60 at the OF.

So it looks like the EF Mass is the answer to the future. But what is the reality? You’ve only concentrated them in one place so it looks like the EF is thriving at the expense of the OF. The reality is that they are still only 4% of the Church.

The reality is that in the above situation, while you’ve lured the traditionalist back to full-time attendance, the rate of regular attendance has only gone from 600 to 800, out of a potential 5000, and moreover these people were believers already, they just weren’t seeing their needs met; it doesn’t increase the number of faithful significantly. And while a significant improvement in attendance, it isn’t enough to “save the Church”. While those numbers are made up, I’d bet a beer that they’re pretty close and within an order of magnitude, and I base that on what I see by attending an OF Mass that is in Gregorian chant and is very reverent and is the closest thing we see to an EF Mass in my region: in the parishes where we sing, we’ve seen Masses of 40-60 people with very few very full churches, and the Benedictine monastery with the Mass in reverent chant, has maybe 150-200 every Sunday in a fairly compact building.

Now one thing I have noticed in our choir, which rotates around parishes once a month: some, a very few, parishes, all with OF Masses, are overflowing, and some are dying.

There are many factors at play of course, including shifting demographics. However the parishes I saw that are overflowing, have several things in common: lots of involvement of parishioners in parish life; lots of young families, and lastly, dynamic and orthodox priests, who aren’t afraid to preach Truth with a capital “T”, and are in touch with their parishioners. I also noted in those well-attended OF parishes that while the priests are not always musical and the music isn’t always so great, they also don’t abuse the liturgy.

The answer to the dwindling participation in Church life is re-evangelizing, and orthodoxy, as people are looking for Truth in a scary world, not wishy-washy feel good stuff. Why do the newer Protestant sects do so well? The music sucks, and there’s NO liturgy, nothing even remotely close to the beauty and reverence of a well-executed OF Mass such as the one I attend, let alone an EF Mass! It’s because they give people black-and-white answers, and thus, hope. Fiddling with the rites, IMHO, is just re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic if not accompanied by an attack on the core issue: secularization of our society.

Yes, a reverent Mass that draws on our traditions and Tradition is part of any solution, but it doesn’t have to be EF. A non-abused OF Mass in Gregorian chant will do just fine.

 

[Robert_Burns]

My problem with this is that you aren’t thinking of the average teen (which is the future of any Church). Many teens these days think that mass should be “fun” (i use to be one of these). They will go to Catholic Church with their parents, but then go to their Protestant friends for a “more fun” church. Switching to the EF will cause teens to lose interest in Church completely. For many (or even sadly, most) teens even OF is boring. Its a fact, ask the average Catholic off the street, and they will tell you so.

If we toss in Latin again, make the priest face away from the congregation, and other things that accompany the EF mass, most Catholics will find that even more boring, the hard core Catholics will find it more reverent, but if you aren’t into the whole “latin is more holier than English”, feeling, it will seem more boring. Its common sense.

Don’t bother saying that since the EF is more reverent (which itself is up for debate), more people will join, and those who aren’t going now, will start. They won’t. As a teen myself, I know how todays teens think and want. They want to be entertained, not reverent.

While I agree that switching back to the EF MIGHT help, we WILL experience a lost generation. Teens (except for hard core Catholics as myself) WILL lose interest. If enough lose interest, and we don’t have enough second generation Catholics, then we will be lost.

Source-
Myself and countless discussions with my Catholic and “Catholic” friends.

The problem with Our Generation and it would appear your generation remains the same then. IE - Whats in it FOR ME. When we go to Holy Mass - we dont go for ME we go for GOD. When the Priest is offereing the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass facing the Altar where the Relics of the Saints lie - he is offering the Sacrifice of the Body and Blood of Christ in Propitiation for SIN - your Sin and my Sin.

It isnt meant to be party. It isnt meant to be a dance. It isnt meant to be fun and good times. If you want fun and good times - Comedians and Dancing girls then go Protestant. Honestly.

The Catholic Faith in the EF is solemn not festive. And you dont speak for all teens. There are hundreds at the Church I go to including two of my Children. And this summer they had to build two more classrooms because the school keeps growing exponentially.

Teens dont need to be entertained - they need to be educated. The problem with most people today , is they want to put kids on a pedestal instead of teaching them disicpline. Everything has to be fun and games. Well guess what - there is nothing fun about being sent to Hell - or having a Child out of wedlock or seeing a baby aborted. And the sooner our children realize that life isnt fun and games that life is serious business the sooner teens especially will realize that there is a price to be paid for irreverence - for sin and for debauchery.

You want to grow up and be a man - or do you want to exist in a false utopia that doesnt exist?

Really , its your choice isnt it.

pax

 

[Robert_Burns]

Don’t forget the ration of OF vs EF Masses in a given location. If there are 10,000 Catholics in a diocese and lets give a generous 10% of them adhere to the EF. Thats 1000 Catholics who would go to one EF Mass anywhere in the Diocese. Then say there’s 18 OF parishes around the diocese which would only have an average of 500 people per Sunday. I’m sure if you offer the EF in all 18 parishes, you’d see very few people attending the EF and surmise that people are not attending the EF. But since the EF is only celebrated in 1 or 2 parishes per diocese, there is a wider “audience” for one parish.

Assuming it doesnt grow - but as history has shown for 2000 years - such isnt the case obviously. GOD being worshipped the same way starting from 12 Apostles grew worldwide. Are we to assume it cannot happen again? But the simple fact remains that for nearly 30 years the Tirdentine Latin Mass was completely suppressed and yet today here it is. If that couldnt kill it - what can. like it or not - the TLM is here to stay and now that it is authorized it will continue to grow. A lot of you may not like that reality - but that is what it is, reality.

 

[Phemie]

The problem with Our Generation and it would appear your generation remains the same then. IE - Whats in it FOR ME. When we go to Holy Mass - we dont go for ME we go for GOD. When the Priest is offereing the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass facing the Altar where the Relics of the Saints lie - he is offering the Sacrifice of the Body and Blood of Christ in Propitiation for SIN - your Sin and my Sin.

The thing I hear most often is “you don’t have to go to Mass to believe in God” or “I don’t get anything out of it”. Well, no, but you do have to go to Mass on Sunday if you’re a Catholic who wants to avoid mortal sin and it’s not about what you get out of it but what you put into it.

Unfortunately, even someone like the former (only because she moved) diocesan catechetical coordinator didn’t think twice about going off to a cabin in the woods, about 30 min. outside of town, and not bothering to return for Mass on Sunday “because I’m communing with God in my own way in the woods setting.” ummm, OK, but hope you’re not offended if I don’t go with you.

When you have about 200 out of a parish of 1500 who attend ‘fairly regularly’, many of those the ones who’d give their right arm for an EF Mass, don’t think that an EF Mass will draw many of the other 1300. They simply don’t care about Church for anything but Baptisms, First Communions, weddings and funerals and for the most part those aren’t done out of faith but because they are milestone moments.

 

[ProVobis]

I doubt very much that offering the EF is going to bring back people who don’t think going to Mass is important. Most younger people I talk to, and even many people my age (50+) see no reason to go to Mass, period. It’s just not important to them. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the language or the form the Mass takes.

If I remember right, don’t you regularly go to French OFs? I hear half of those in France who attend Mass go to the EF. Is this true?

 

[OraLabora]

Assuming it doesnt grow - but as history has shown for 2000 years - such isnt the case obviously. GOD being worshipped the same way starting from 12 Apostles grew worldwide. Are we to assume it cannot happen again? But the simple fact remains that for nearly 30 years the Tirdentine Latin Mass was completely suppressed and yet today here it is. If that couldnt kill it - what can. like it or not - the TLM is here to stay and now that it is authorized it will continue to grow. A lot of you may not like that reality - but that is what it is, reality.

I have no problems with it staying. I do have a problem with a lot of the unrealistic expectations people attach to it, portraying it as some sort of savior of the Church. It isn’t, at least not on its own.

The problems of Church membership in the West are much deeper than the Mass rite.

 

[Robert_Burns]

The thing I hear most often is “you don’t have to go to Mass to believe in God” or “I don’t get anything out of it”. Well, no, but you do have to go to Mass on Sunday if you’re a Catholic who wants to avoid mortal sin and it’s not about what you get out of it but what you put into it. >>>

Robert: Well said. And as for getting anything out of it - not only do you perform your obligation - you perform the Minimum Obligation. Catholics can go to Holy Mass every day of the week if they choose to. how many do today? thats why it is really sad to see people who cannot even do the very minimum - knowing that GOD asks very little of all of us - and so many cannot even do the minimum. Also - in the EF- when the Priest gives us the Absolution which he does twice at low mass - all of our Venial sins are forgiven , so technically we do get something out of every Mass. And if you go to Holy Communion - you get the Body and Blood of Christ.

<<<< Unfortunately, even someone like the former (only because she moved) diocesan catechetical coordinator didn’t think twice about going off to a cabin in the woods, about 30 min. outside of town, and not bothering to return for Mass on Sunday “because I’m communing with God in my own way in the woods setting.” ummm, OK, but hope you’re not offended if I don’t go with you. >>>>>

Robert : And thus scandalized you. Sad indeed.

<<<< When you have about 200 out of a parish of 1500 who attend ‘fairly regularly’, many of those the ones who’d give their right arm for an EF Mass, don’t think that an EF Mass will draw many of the other 1300. They simply don’t care about Church for anything but Baptisms, First Communions, weddings and funerals and for the most part those aren’t done out of faith but because they are milestone moments.

Robert: From what I have seen - GOD’s grace can work miracles. I have read many books on the lives of the Saints. Take for example the Cure of Ars St John Vianney. Certainly when he was a new Priest and unknown not that many people came to his Church. But as the News of his Holiness spread - People would come from miles away to confess their sins to him. He would give confessions all day most Saturdays to accomodate the Crowds. We have the same religion today. We simply need to practise it. There are Saints amongst us. It only takes one for GOD to raise as an example and an entire Parish can grow dynamically. And we all should be praying for vocations. One of those disinterested youths may be the next Cure and may need the watershed moment when GOD touches their heart.

Pax

 

[ConstantineTG]

Assuming it doesnt grow - but as history has shown for 2000 years - such isnt the case obviously. GOD being worshipped the same way starting from 12 Apostles grew worldwide. Are we to assume it cannot happen again? But the simple fact remains that for nearly 30 years the Tirdentine Latin Mass was completely suppressed and yet today here it is. If that couldnt kill it - what can. like it or not - the TLM is here to stay and now that it is authorized it will continue to grow. A lot of you may not like that reality - but that is what it is, reality.

I’m sorry, but the TLM has not been around the same way for 2000 years. You are mistaken on that part.