No, that’s not me. While French is my mother tongue, I live in an all English environment and rarely get to a French Mass other than when I’m on holidays. Not to mention that I’m in Canada so I don’t have any idea how they worship in France.If I remember right, don’t you regularly go to French OFs? I hear half of those in France who attend Mass go to the EF. Is this true?
I disagree.I have no problems with it staying. I do have a problem with a lot of the unrealistic expectations people attach to it, portraying it as some sort of savior of the Church. It isn’t, at least not on its own.
The problems of Church membership in the West are much deeper than the Mass rite.
Not just in the West but worldwide. The influence of US media is far and wide, and a lot of thinking has adjusted to what popular media tells us. Sadly, the youth would respond more to TV and movie personalities than any given priest. And your everyday Holywood types all preach the same message. Just look at Miley Cyrus. Wasn’t it just a year or two ago she is a teenage sensation? Now she has sexy and revealing clothing and even the theme of her songs suddenly jumped to more mature. Sadly many young girls have followed her when she was Hannah Montana and now is being the wrong kind of role model. But the sad fact of life today is this messaged is better received by the youth that what a priest is saying.The problems of Church membership in the West are much deeper than the Mass rite.
The Canon hasI’m sorry, but the TLM has not been around the same way for 2000 years. You are mistaken on that part.
Whose fault is that? The parents?Not just in the West but worldwide. The influence of US media is far and wide, and a lot of thinking has adjusted to what popular media tells us. Sadly, the youth would respond more to TV and movie personalities than any given priest. And your everyday Holywood types all preach the same message. Just look at Miley Cyrus. Wasn’t it just a year or two ago she is a teenage sensation? Now she has sexy and revealing clothing and even the theme of her songs suddenly jumped to more mature. Sadly many young girls have followed her when she was Hannah Montana and now is being the wrong kind of role model. But the sad fact of life today is this messaged is better received by the youth that what a priest is saying.
Actually I disagree. Many teens I work with today (I am 25 so not much older than you) find mass extremly boring, and this also includes masses that are very liberal. Teens are smart (I know crazy uh?) if we teach them about reverence and the theology behind the mass in ways that they understand, they will get it. We don’t need more of these “teen masses” many people find them, sad to say, pathetic attemtp by grownups to try to reach teens. Teens want to be a part of what adluts do, so let them be part of truly reverent masses. At the EF I go, atleast 60% of those who attend are from the ages of 8-25, the rest are adults in their 30’s and very few people in their 70s or 80s.My problem with this is that you aren’t thinking of the average teen (which is the future of any Church). Many teens these days think that mass should be “fun” (i use to be one of these). They will go to Catholic Church with their parents, but then go to their Protestant friends for a “more fun” church. Switching to the EF will cause teens to lose interest in Church completely. For many (or even sadly, most) teens even OF is boring. Its a fact, ask the average Catholic off the street, and they will tell you so.
If we toss in Latin again, make the priest face away from the congregation, and other things that accompany the EF mass, most Catholics will find that even more boring, the hard core Catholics will find it more reverent, but if you aren’t into the whole “latin is more holier than English”, feeling, it will seem more boring. Its common sense.
Don’t bother saying that since the EF is more reverent (which itself is up for debate), more people will join, and those who aren’t going now, will start. They won’t. As a teen myself, I know how todays teens think and want. They want to be entertained, not reverent.
While I agree that switching back to the EF MIGHT help, we WILL experience a lost generation. Teens (except for hard core Catholics as myself) WILL lose interest. If enough lose interest, and we don’t have enough second generation Catholics, then we will be lost.
Source-
Myself and countless discussions with my Catholic and “Catholic” friends.
I can’t say. From my personal experience my parents are very conservative and very strict, but it didn’t stop me from my younger years to experiment. But I guess it did help in getting me back on the right track. Of course nothing can replace excellent parenting, but its extremely difficult nowadays when the same immoral message is everywhere you look. Its sad that even on daytime radio you get commercials about condoms that emphasize on the pleasure of sex. There was a time you won’t hear commercials like that at all, and just recently you won’t hear that during daytime or primetime hours. Now its as ordinary as commericals for fast food chains.Whose fault is that? The parents?
But the Mass (in the Latin Rite) and most if not all Church documents ARE in Latin. That’s not changing. If anything throw out the ever changing vernacular. People like things simple and stable.I agree that throwing the Latin into the mass is probably not the best idea…
It has nothing whatsoever to do with the language or the form the Mass takes.
Exactly. I’m 56, my brothers 55 & 51. Our parents were devout Catholics, rosary in the home, evening prayer, Mass on Sundays and often during the week. Older brother an altar server. Priests as family friends.I can’t say. From my personal experience my parents are very conservative and very strict, but it didn’t stop me from my younger years to experiment. But I guess it did help in getting me back on the right track. Of course nothing can replace excellent parenting, but its extremely difficult nowadays when the same immoral message is everywhere you look. Its sad that even on daytime radio you get commercials about condoms that emphasize on the pleasure of sex. There was a time you won’t hear commercials like that at all, and just recently you won’t hear that during daytime or primetime hours. Now its as ordinary as commericals for fast food chains.
Exodus to where? If they have great faith in the Church and the Eucharist, they wouldn’t up an leave and go to a Protestant faith. People claim that many left because of happy-clappy OF Masses. So why do people end up in Happy-Clappy Evangelical or Pentecostal churches? I thought they had a problem with the Happy-Clappy?That is where you are wrong…it may seem that way now, because it has spiraled out of control…but it is the root of the problem. The innovations that are prevalent in the Novus Ordo and the cookie-cutter, crayon theology that is promulgated from the ambo in most Churches has destroyed and confused a great many Catholics…that is the major cause of the exodus. That and very poor Catechesis which goes hand and hand with the protestantation of The Mass
Exodus to where? If they have great faith in the Church and the Eucharist, they wouldn’t up an leave and go to a Protestant faith. People claim that many left because of happy-clappy OF Masses. So why do people end up in Happy-Clappy Evangelical or Pentecostal churches? I thought they had a problem with the Happy-Clappy?
I firmly believe that my mom’s enduring devotion and non-stop prayer is what kept me and my siblings from falling far away from the right path. Though we had our own troubles, in the end things worked out fine.Exactly. I’m 56, my brothers 55 & 51. Our parents were devout Catholics, rosary in the home, evening prayer, Mass on Sundays and often during the week. Older brother an altar server. Priests as family friends.
I’m the only one who still goes to Mass or has any involvement with the Church. My older brother kept the charade up for a while to keep our father off his back, he and his wife would dress up for Mass and then go out for coffee, but he stopped believing in God decades ago. The younger seems to believe in God but has no belief in anything Catholic. He rarely sets foot in church. They both think I’m nuts and miss no opportunity to tell me so.
My kids grew up in the Church, much to their uncles’ – their godfathers – consternation and dismay. DD was an altar server. None of the three now goes to church except at Christmas and then only DD goes unless they are home visiting. It seems to have absolutely no relevance to their lives.
I’ve just found out that DD is pregnant and am thrilled that I’m going to be a grandmother. But now I’m wondering if DD, who is in an invalid marriage, is going to expect to have this child baptized and if so, why.
My point exactly. So its not the OF thats to blame, its people who do not care to learn about the faith. Now they are being lured by services that are fun because you sing and dance and clap and have a good time. Most people forget that the Mass is about your soul feeling good, not your emotions.Because those Happy Clappy’s aren’t filled with devout, properly catechized Catholics who know and tell their fellow parishioners that it is sinful to abort, take birth control, cohabitate before marriage, etc…And even though there are some priest that allow some abuses to go on in their parish…they still preach against and condemn birth control, etc…Those people leave and seek refuge in a denomination that “doesn’t judge” them or is “understanding” and “accepting” of their selfish, hedonistic, heretical lifestyle.
Oh yeah…and the ones leaving today never learned that it is TRULY the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ…because it is now a “Spiritual Meal” celebrated by the “Faith Community” instead of a Sacrifice offered by the priest for The Church
But the Latin Mass for most was its association with the Church. It was easily recognizable as a Catholic Mass. It identified with the Church. People grew up with the Latin Mass and the Latin Mass only. It inspired beautiful, memorable, and sacred music. As well as beautiful art and architecture. It brought many different cultures and nationalities to the same event. It had a history going all the way back to the early centuries. Where there was a Church in the West, there was a Latin Mass. And for many the Latin Mass was their only contact with the Church. And even missed by non-Catholics (Agatha Christie et al) when it was seemingly “lost.”But people who exodus out of the Church are not because they lost faith suddenly because of the loss of the Latin Mass. Its because they did not have enough faith to begin with.
So why then leave the Church just because the Mass changed? I don’t get it. If they believed in the Real Presence in the Eucharist, where else could they go? Its not like there was a spike in Orthodox membership following the introduction of the Pauline Mass.But the Latin Mass for most was its association with the Church. It was easily recognizable as a Catholic Mass. It identified with the Church. People grew up with the Latin Mass and the Latin Mass only. It inspired beautiful, memorable, and sacred music. As well as beautiful art and architecture. It brought many different cultures and nationalities to the same event. It had a history going all the way back to the early centuries. Where there was a Church in the West, there was a Latin Mass. And for many the Latin Mass was their only contact with the Church. And even missed by non-Catholics (Agatha Christie et al) when it was seemingly “lost.”
I wouldn’t say these people never had faith to begin with.
That’s obvious.I disagree.
So why then leave the Church just because the Mass changed? I don’t get it. If they believed in the Real Presence in the Eucharist, where else could they go? Its not like there was a spike in Orthodox membership following the introduction of the Pauline Mass.
I don’t know about your parish but in my parish the missing are not those who grew up with the EF. Those older people are in Church. The missing ones are those 40 and under who never experienced it and for whom missing Mass is just a choice they make. When they have to decide between Mass and any other activity, Mass always loses out. Unfortunately, some of them are also catechists and they propagate the idea that if you choose something other than Mass it’s no big deal. “We all have to compromise sometime.”But the Latin Mass for most was its association with the Church. It was easily recognizable as a Catholic Mass. It identified with the Church. People grew up with the Latin Mass and the Latin Mass only. It inspired beautiful, memorable, and sacred music. As well as beautiful art and architecture. It brought many different cultures and nationalities to the same event. It had a history going all the way back to the early centuries. Where there was a Church in the West, there was a Latin Mass. And for many the Latin Mass was their only contact with the Church. And even missed by non-Catholics (Agatha Christie et al) when it was seemingly “lost.”
I wouldn’t say these people never had faith to begin with.
A survey I once looked at showed that belief in the Real Presence is not tied down to the OF nor CITH but more of one’s own devotion to the faith. Unless you can offer a different proof.Newsflash…after the introduction of the “current” OF, belief in the True Presence diminished…I am not sure, but I think that only something like, less than 30% of all Catholics today believe in the True Presence…that dynamic shift in numbers coincides with the mass Exodus from The Church…if they no longer believe in the True Presence, what is their motivation to hang around??? And the True Presence is no longer believed because most priest today only teach the mass as a community meal and NOT a Sacrifice which it is.