Why is there a Purgatory

[NonDenom]

Shiann:

NonDenom:

Purgatory (Lat., “purgare”, to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God’s grace

, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.

Hi
This is where you are missguided, We can PAY nothing for remission of sins. Christ paid the price for our sins.

It is certainly true that we have no more sin, once we approach God with a contrite heart for our transgressions. But our human nature retains the appetite for sin even beyond the forgiveness of God. We are to partake in all of God’s Sacraments to help supress this appetite, but we are still imperfect.

We are not guilty for an appetite for sin anymore than we are guilty for being tempted. It is when we let the appetite for sin get the best of us and we give in to that temptation that we are guilty of sin.

God told us that nothing unclean can enter Heaven, and it is one final act of Saving Grace that God provides us with a method to scour this appetite from our nature, and release us from it.

When God forgives us of sin, we are then clean, washed by the blood of Christ.

True repentance will recieve True forgiveness.

 

[MariaG]

NonDenom:

Hi MariaG

The one problem with Purgatory is that Catholis act as if there is a sin residue left on us even after repentence and the asking for forgivness. Our sins been hidden. They have placed 'as far as the East is from the West. They have been placed in the sea of God’s forgetfulness. Scripture says that God will not only forgive our sins but will also forget them,
Heb 8:12
For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Heb 10:17
And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Scripture says we are healed, not sick anymore,

Isa 53:4-5
Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows; yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Jesus paid the the price for our sins. He didnt die for only 90% of our sins with the other 10% needing to be purged out. Scripture says our sins are forgotten.

Thanks

Purgatory is not about “10% being purged out”. 100% will be purged. We are 100% forgiven, and 100% cleansed.

You gave some really good verses on the way God forgives the sin. He does forget it. The sin is completely gone. But the teaching of purgatory is not about forgiveness. It is about making whole that which was broken. When we sin, we damage our soul. Unforgiven sin will send us to hell, forgiven sin restores our relationship with Christ. But the sin is like a nail in our soul. With forgiveness, God removes the nail, but a hole is left in our soul. Purgatory fills the holes.

Scripture cannot contradict itself. The only way we can reconcile the Scripture you posted and the Scripture that talks of cleansing after death is purgatory.

:bible1: 1Cor 3:10 -15
10According to the grace of God given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and antoher is buiding upon it. But each one must be careful how he builds upon it, 11for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ.12If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood hay or straw, 13the work fo each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire [itself] will test the quality of each one’s work. 14If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will reeive a wage. **15But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire. **

This is a good explanation of these verses from Scripture Catholic

Hence, this verse proves that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, but the person is still saved. This cannot mean heaven (there is no punishment in heaven) and this cannot mean hell (the possibility of expiation no longer exists and the person is not saved).

As I said earlier, Scripture does not contradict itself. So while our sin is forgiven as if we had never done anything, we also are cleansed of it after death.

Or do you have a different interpretation of 1Cor3:10 - 15?

I would welcome discussion and a differing opinion on the Catholic interpretation of scripture.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Aaron_I]

NonDenom:

We are not guilty for an appetite for sin anymore than we are guilty for being tempted. It is when we let the appetite for sin get the best of us and we give in to that temptation that we are guilty of sin.

We are not talking about guilt, though. We are talking about concupiscence and the reality that nothing unclean shall enter the kingdom of heaven. If we still have the tendency to sin, we are hardly clean. In purgatory, all attachment to sin is purged away.

The existence of purgatory necessarily follows once you reject “faith alone” salvation, something that should take all of two minutes: grab a Bible and read James 2.

 

[MariaG]

Warrior4Truth:

I know that I have not a post here for a long while now, but I would like to say thank you for all the great post that have been made so far. It is helping me to better understand purgatory from all sides.
Your loving brother in Christ
Warrior4Truth

Glad you are still hanging around!

After explaining exactly what purgatory is and what it isn’t one of the reasons I like to focus on scripture is even if my separated brethren don’t agree with the interpretation, I think it is important to show all the Scripture that really is involved in the teaching of Purgatory and not just some “man-made” pulled from the sky doctirne.

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

 

[Shiann]

NonDenom:

Hi
This is where you are missguided, We can PAY nothing for remission of sins. Christ paid the price for our sins.

You neglected to respond to the scriptural evidence that there is an ‘temporal effect’ to our sins, to which we are obligated- even beyond our full forgiveness.

You are right, Christ made our entry to Heaven possible. A man (Adam) severed our relationship with God, and only God in the form of man (Jesus) was able to bridge the gap again.

But as MariaG so correctly pointed out, Purgatory isn’t about forgiveness. It’s about making the already forgiven ready for their entrance into heaven.

We are not guilty for an appetite for sin anymore than we are guilty for being tempted. It is when we let the appetite for sin get the best of us and we give in to that temptation that we are guilty of sin.

Exactly, but again as someone pointed out so well, it isn’t about guilt and forgiveness- it is about purity/cleanliness and perfection.

Say I have a tendency to be too pridefull. I haven’t sinned by just having a tendency- but that tendency still weighs on my soul and leaves me imperfect for heaven.

When God forgives us of sin, we are then clean, washed by the blood of Christ.

Again, this is exactly right, but as purgatory has nothing to do with forgiveness of mortal sin, this is a moot point.

True repentance will recieve True forgiveness.

Well said!

 

[NonDenom]

You gave some really good verses on the way God forgives the sin. He does forget it. The sin is completely gone. But the teaching of purgatory is not about forgiveness

. It is about making whole that which was broken. When we sin, we damage our soul. Unforgiven sin will send us to hell, forgiven sin restores our relationship with Christ. But the sin is like a nail in our soul. With forgiveness, God removes the nail, but a hole is left in our soul. Purgatory fills the holes.

Hi MariaG
No,No,No, you still don’t understand. When God removes the nail (forgives us our sin) there is no hole left, unless he only forgives part of the sin. I see your analagy, but it’s wrong in this case. When God forgives us, he forgives us completly, just like he ask’s us to do with each other. I will let you know more on 1 Cor 3:10-15 after I have studied and prayed about it.
Thanks

 

[MariaG]

NonDenom:

Hi MariaG
No,No,No, you still don’t understand. When God removes the nail (forgives us our sin) there is no hole left, unless he only forgives part of the sin. I see your analagy, but it’s wrong in this case. When God forgives us, he forgives us completly, just like he ask’s us to do with each other. I will let you know more on 1 Cor 3:10-15 after I have studied and prayed about it.
Thanks

I am glad you will think about and pray about that scripture. But you still do not understand what purgatory is.

Catholics would agree with you 100% that when God forgives, he forgives it completely.

I’ll look forward to discussion on 1Cor3:10 - 15

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Warrior4Truth]

Let me make sure I am following all this correctly.
Purgatory is not punishment, because when God forgives us of all the sins we have done, he also drops the punishment for those sins…In this life and the next…am I right so far???
Purgatory is there not as a punishment but as a cleansing of all the “residue that sin left behind”, and our time in purgatory depends on how much of the “residue is on us when we die”
Sort of like when you take a bath…If you are really dirty you may have to be in there for awhile, and if you are only a little dirty you are only in there for a sec…Am I on the right track???

 

[Truthseeker4]

Warrior4Truth:

Let me make sure I am following all this correctly.
Purgatory is not punishment, because when God forgives us of all the sins we have done, he also drops the punishment for those sins…In this life and the next…am I right so far???
Purgatory is there not as a punishment but as a cleansing of all the “residue that sin left behind”, and our time in purgatory depends on how much of the “residue is on us when we die”
Sort of like when you take a bath…If you are really dirty you may have to be in there for awhile, and if you are only a little dirty you are only in there for a sec…Am I on the right track???

Hi there Warrior4Truth,

I believe that is the general gist. Here is another tidbit to look into. I cannot speak for how accurate Wikepedia is. My college papers are never disputed when I use it for a source.
Purgatory

Another thing that I did not realize is that within Protestantism glorification would be a concept like purgatory. Learned that tonight through Wikepedia. Although most of the Protestant world does reject Purgatory there are some schools of thought about the concept. I am thinking this may be a matter of rejecting the word Purgatory for the sole purpose of it sounding too Catholic. We both know too that Purgatory and the concept of purgatory is rejected as well.

I do not know what you have been taught or through study of your own on these concepts.

We are Redeemed, Justified, Sanctified and Glorified. I have no idea about the Catholic theology on the above. Of course those are probably better suited for another thread.

At this point in time I am leaning towards Purgatory being the correct terminology for our purification. Before hand the concept was there through Bible study and research. Delving into the Early Church Fathers from the perspective of Catholicism and Orthodox has shed light on issues that have been puzzling.

Melissa

 

[Truthseeker4]

Since Glorification was mentioned as a Protestant perspective on the concept of Purgatory I am interested to see how Catholics view glorification. Is there any relation of it to Purgatory?

Melissa

 

[rileyOfiley]

I don’t understand how going through torture and pain will cleans you of your sins? and what about when the Bible says that “the dead know nothing”? it was said that those in purgatory are aware of where they are. how can this be?

 

[Superstar905]

You know, the more I talk to people about Purgatory, the more I don’t understand what is the big deal. I have never really had to stop and think about it at all, and it makes perfect sense to me. Purgatory is Christs perfect sacrifice applied to us, to cleanse us. Thus, does not in the least diminish his sacrifice on the Cross.

At the end of the day, the bottom line, is to make sure you live everyday like its your last, and die in a state of Grace. At that point, let God take care of the rest, and quite worrying about Purgatory. The Catechism has a mere 3 paragraphs on it, and they basically tell it all.

 

[George_Waters]

Superstar905:

You know, the more I talk to people about Purgatory, the more I don’t understand what is the big deal. I have never really had to stop and think about it at all, and it makes perfect sense to me. Purgatory is Christs perfect sacrifice applied to us, to cleanse us. Thus, does not in the least diminish his sacrifice on the Cross.

At the end of the day, the bottom line, is to make sure you live everyday like its your last, and die in a state of Grace. At that point, let God take care of the rest, and quite worrying about Purgatory. The Catechism has a mere 3 paragraphs on it, and they basically tell it all.

Superstar905,

You are absolutely correct! We will go there or we will not regardless if we believe in Purgatory or not. Everything is by the grace of God! I think it is just a convenient topic for many to feel better about themselves by attacking what they do not understand.

Peace,

George

 

[RCCDefender]

We go through purgation because God is merciful and He is also just, “For whom the Lord loves, he disciplines; he scourges every son he acknowledges.” Heb 12:6.

In Col. 1:24 Paul says: “Now I rejoice in my suffering for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church”.

Heb 12:23 “the spirits of the just made perfect” are residing in Heaven. The just are people in Heaven, but they don’t necessarily arrive there that way - they are made perfect.

 

[MariaG]

Truthseeker4:

Since Glorification was mentioned as a Protestant perspective on the concept of Purgatory I am interested to see how Catholics view glorification. Is there any relation of it to Purgatory?

Melissa

Sounds like purgatory to this Catholic girl.

You might wish to know, there has never been an official declaration of time in regards to purgatory. Pope John II said it should be viewed less as a place and more as a process. But we can believe either/both, but all Christians will be purified before seeing God.

But Wikipedia might not be the most reliable source for explanation of Protestant theology and that is where I read the explanation of glorification.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

Warrior4Truth:

Let me make sure I am following all this correctly.
Purgatory is not punishment, because when God forgives us of all the sins we have done, he also drops the punishment for those sins…In this life and the next…am I right so far???
Purgatory is there not as a punishment but as a cleansing of all the “residue that sin left behind”, and our time in purgatory depends on how much of the “residue is on us when we die”
Sort of like when you take a bath…If you are really dirty you may have to be in there for awhile, and if you are only a little dirty you are only in there for a sec…Am I on the right track???

Another way to think about this is this.

Adam and Eve, when created, were perfect. When they sinned, they did not add original sin to their soul, they lost a perfect one.

In purgatory, we are given back that perfection we were meant to have but lost through original sin.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Sulymun]

Warrior4Truth:

HI everyone…
I just wanted to know the facts about purgatory. What is it? Why is it there? What bible verses prove its existence? Why do you go there? I would very much appreciate to know the answers to these questions.

There is no purgatory. It is a myth, that is why you cannot prove it from the bible!

It was created to induce fear, out of ignorance.

 

[DessertDweller]

Sulymun:

There is no purgatory. It is a myth, that is why you cannot prove it from the bible!

It was created to induce fear, out of ignorance.

Hi Sulymun. Hell should create fear to all…agree. But I don’t see purgatory as being frightful unless I fail to fully grasp what purgatory is. If you read all the previous posts I’m sure you would get the gist. Anyhow, just to add, below is an excerpt from the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I fervently hope by God’s grace that you would come to understand it correctly:

“All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but, after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of Heaven. The Church gives the name purgatory to this final purification of the elect, **which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.” ** (Cf. no. 1030-32).

Yours in Christ.

 

[MariaG]

Sulymun:

There is no purgatory. It is a myth, that is why you cannot prove it from the bible!

It was created to induce fear, out of ignorance.

There are so many levels I could dispute your post on, however, I’ll keep it simple.

There was much Scripture posted on this thread. Care to refute Catholic interpretation instead of making wild statements with nothing to back it up on?

From Scipture Catholic
1Cor3:10 - 15 works are judged after death and tested by fire. Some works are lost, but the person is still saved. Paul is referring to the state of purgation called purgatory. The venial sins (bad works) that were committed are burned up after death, but the person is still brought to salvation. This state after death cannot be heaven (no one with venial sins is present) or hell (there is no forgiveness and salvation).

While there is a lot of other Scipture, keeping it simple, why is the Catholic interpretation of 1Cor3:10-15 wrong? What is your interpretation of that Scripture?

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Superstar905]

Sulymun:

There is no purgatory. It is a myth, that is why you cannot prove it from the bible!

It was created to induce fear, out of ignorance.

To induce fear? Rather than write down useless babble and accusations, prove your point…What is so scary about purgatory, if you go the the process called purgatory, you know you are already going to heaven, so what is so scary about that?

Also, why dwell on it? Whether you believe it or not, it exists, and you will have to go through the cleansing fires also if you are indeed going to heaven. So don’t waste time on Purgatory, especially when the church has a WHOLE 3 PARAGRAPHS to talk about it.