R
Robert_in_SD
Guest
Hello Sulyman;
Sulymun:
Robert in SD:
Yes, you can prove purgatory from the bible. See my earlier response at post #47, which I’ve cut-n-pasted below:
Robert in SD:
NonDenom:
Is this the best you’ve got!
To understand the doctrine of Purgatory, you must understand two fundamental distinctions: (1) between guilt and punishment; and (2) between moral and venial sins.
**A. Does God forgive guilt of sin and still require punishment? **
Yes - Just consider 2 Sam 12:13-14: God forgives King David’s sin, but still requires that he make reparation in the form of suffering. (Just like a man may forgive a teenager who breaks his window, but still require that he repair the damage.
B. Where does Scripture distinguish between mortal and venial sin?
1 Jn 5:16-17 proves degrees of sin, distinguishing between deadly sin, and sin that is not deadly
Quote:
:[16] If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that.
[17] All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.
Jam 1:14-15 distinguishes desire from sin, and beginning sin from mature sin which brings death. Sin which brings death to the soul is mortal. Sin which only wounds and disfigures is venial. Both are bad and evil.
Quote:
[14] but each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.
[15] Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin; and sin when it is full-grown brings forth death.
If you die in a state of grace, but with unforgiven venial sins, or with forgiven mortal sins for which some reparation is still due, then you do not merit Hell, but you must “pay the last penny.” For nothing unclean shall enter Heaven. (Rev. 21:27.)
C. Is Purgatory Scriptural? Yes.
Mt. 12:32 - [32] And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." - implies that some sins can be forgiven in the next world. Sin cannot be forgiven in Hell. There is no sin to be forgiven in Heaven. Therefore, any remission of sin in the next world must take place in some intermediate place. Catholics call this purgatory.
1 Cor. 3:15 - “[15] If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” - This cannot refer to eternal loss in Hell, because no one there can be saved. Nor can it refer to Heaven, for there no one suffers. It refers to a middle state where the soul temporarily suffers loss so that it may gain Heaven. This is essentially the definition of Purgatory.
1 Pet 3:18-20 - Christ speaks and preaches to the spirits in prison, who formerly did not obey. And in 1 Pet 4:6 - scripture speaks of the gospel being preached even to the dead. These passages speak of a prison for disobedient spirits from which they were saved. This is not Hell, because one cannot be saved from Hell, nor is it the “bosom of Abraham” because the spirits referenced in these passages are disobedient spirits. St. Peter is describing a temporary state for disobedient spirits who are eventually saved.
2 Macc 12:44-45 is a proof text in which the text explicitly shows that expiation is made for the sins of the dead. Even if you (as a “non-denom”) reject the canonicity of this book, you must acknowledge that it historically depicts the practices of the jews of 100 years before Christ - who then (as now) pray for their dead.
2 Tim 1:16-18 is another example of a former jew-turned-christian (St. Paul) who prays for his dead friend Onesiphorus.
There is plenty of scripture supporting the doctrine. It is you who choose to reject the logical and scriptural arguments for the doctrine because you perceive the doctrine to detract from the finished work of Christ. It does not. It shows how that finished work is applied. (Again, note the distinction between guilt and punishment.)
And as far as the “moneymaking” scheme goes, a stipend to a priest for saying a mass for a deceased person is $5.00, and the limit is one stipend per mass, and a priest is limited to the number of masses he can perform. So, from what you’re suggesting, this “money-making” scheme rakes in less than minimum wage, for about an hour a day at best. (So, in the immortal words of “Al Borland” - “I don’t think so, Tim.”)
Melissa
