Why is thinking about sex so terrible?

[John-the-Seeker]

Oren:

Yeah, I am a girl. Unmarried, never been married. I have gone for long periods of time without ‘fantasizing’. But as you may know, a lot of girls go through periods of feeling really sexually charged, and then periods where they’re not. At least a lot more than guys. So I have gone through periods of not doing anything like that. I didn’t feel any better. I just felt like I didn’t feel like doing it, so I didn’t. On the other hand, when I did feel like doing it again, and then I had to feel guilty about it, THEN I felt terrible. It didn’t make me feel any better.

To the person who asked where I found that ‘thinking about sex’ is taught against by the Church, what I meant was the teaching against the sin of ‘lust’ all of that. If you want to argue that, or expand on your comment, fine.

I’m not even just talking about sex, it’s more just the feeling of oppression. I mean, I don’t mean to sound like some liberal progressive feminist or anything like that. I’m just speaking in terms of feeling like you can’t think what you want to. Honestly, I think it is damaging, psychologically. I know I’m going to get blasted for saying that. But I’m someone who grew up ‘secularly’ with no religion. Now, I don’t think that being completely free with sexuality is good. I don’t think we should go and have sex out of marriage. I don’t think anything like that. But when I became Catholic, it was too hard for me to feel guilty about something I never felt guilty about before, I’m speaking of fantasizing, and I’ve never gotten a good explanation of why I’m supposed to feel guilty about it. I haven’t had sex, I don’t go out cruising bars, fantasizing has never made me want to do anything of the kind. So why is it wrong? I’ve seen people say that it leads to action like that, but it doesn’t and has never in my case. So what’s the argument then?

About all of the people speaking about, how it’s the best to save it for marriage etc. Well, aren’t you saving it for marriage if you never have sex? I’ve heard the whole objectification thing hundreds of times. And while I understand the argument, I just don’t see it happening. At least not in my mind or my situation. I don’t think less of anyone because I fantasize about them. Besides which I never do about anyone I know. Why is it objectification?

I think that the key to this discussion is not about ‘Thinking about sex’ so much as it is the freedom to be free to think.
Sin, the letters that compose the word, means to me a Separation In Nature. When we sin we turn from a selfless desire to love our neighbour, (the imitation of God), to a selfish desire to satisfy self, (an imitation of Satan’s ‘I will not serve’).
If we want true freedom from guilt, disease and depression and all of the other dreaded aspects of abuse of self through sin. (I am not talking about any particular type of sin, but rather all sin.) Then the Ten commandments which are summarized by "Love one another as I have loved you.’, is a good place to start because Jesus said so and He ought to know.
Secular thought today is truly enslaving as we strive to ‘be #1’ or ‘grab as much of the pie as we can’. We struggle to find ourselves in ‘freedom to be ourselves’ and thus become enslaved to values that cause stress and tension in our lives.
So all I can suggest is to let prayer and meditation become your method of discovering truth. Be open and honestly ask God to guide you in decisions of conscience. We are instructed to test the spirits so your question, ‘Why must I feel guilty?’ is valid. Ask God to answer you. He will. He promised to come in sit down and sup with anyone who invites Him in. So invite the answer and expect it to come.

 

[captaincatholic]

Oren:

Yeah, I am a girl. Unmarried, never been married. I have gone for long periods of time without ‘fantasizing’. But as you may know, a lot of girls go through periods of feeling really sexually charged, and then periods where they’re not. At least a lot more than guys. So I have gone through periods of not doing anything like that. I didn’t feel any better. I just felt like I didn’t feel like doing it, so I didn’t. On the other hand, when I did feel like doing it again, and then I had to feel guilty about it, THEN I felt terrible. It didn’t make me feel any better.

To the person who asked where I found that ‘thinking about sex’ is taught against by the Church, what I meant was the teaching against the sin of ‘lust’ all of that. If you want to argue that, or expand on your comment, fine.

I’m not even just talking about sex, it’s more just the feeling of oppression. I mean, I don’t mean to sound like some liberal progressive feminist or anything like that. I’m just speaking in terms of feeling like you can’t think what you want to. Honestly, I think it is damaging, psychologically. I know I’m going to get blasted for saying that. But I’m someone who grew up ‘secularly’ with no religion. Now, I don’t think that being completely free with sexuality is good. I don’t think we should go and have sex out of marriage. I don’t think anything like that. But when I became Catholic, it was too hard for me to feel guilty about something I never felt guilty about before, I’m speaking of fantasizing, and I’ve never gotten a good explanation of why I’m supposed to feel guilty about it. I haven’t had sex, I don’t go out cruising bars, fantasizing has never made me want to do anything of the kind. So why is it wrong? I’ve seen people say that it leads to action like that, but it doesn’t and has never in my case. So what’s the argument then?

About all of the people speaking about, how it’s the best to save it for marriage etc. Well, aren’t you saving it for marriage if you never have sex? I’ve heard the whole objectification thing hundreds of times. And while I understand the argument, I just don’t see it happening. At least not in my mind or my situation. I don’t think less of anyone because I fantasize about them. Besides which I never do about anyone I know. Why is it objectification?

During the time before I married my wonderful husband, I thought about sex alot. That’s because it is everywhere. I chose to read good things about it, though. For instance, I read up on NFP to recommend it to clients at a crisis pregnancy center where I was a counselor. I also tried to keep up on Church teachings so that I could witness to other college students looking for the truth about sex. I didn’t know about Christopher West then, but I did read up on JP II’s “Love and Responsibility”. Later, if I would be tempted to think about sex, I would pull out a good book like “Love and Responsibility” and read about the spiritual significance, beauty, and holiness of sex. This helped me alot! It really enabled me to help others, at least by giving a good example, and being able to answer some of their questions about Church teachings.

 

[Topher]

Oren:

Whenever I start having problems with Catholicism, it always seems to revolve around the same issue. I can accept a lot of stuff, and I have. But what I keep having a problem with over and over, is the issue of what you think. I can understand not doing bad things, but I can’t understand how it could be a mortal sin if you even think of something. It seems so much like mind control.

I could even get on board with not thinking bad stuff about people. BUT what I can’t understand is WHY you can’t think about sex. Why can’t you just fantasize, or read about it, or write about it? Like Saint Paul said, it’s better to marry than burn (or something like that)…well why isn’t it the same with just thinking about it…it’s better to think about it than do it. You know what I mean?

It’s not like I watch porn or go out and have sex with a bunch of people all the time. But I can’t even think about it?? Or write about it in a story for fun? I just don’t get it. Could someone explain why this is so terrible?

I’ve heard all the arguments about, it’s a gift and God doesn’t want you to abuse it. But I just don’t get why.

Oren, I am still farily young, in my mid twenties, and I can totally understand your feelings on this matter. However, I have also come to undstand the Church’s wisdom on the matter. When one engages in the marital act, it is an act of the sharing of persons. When one creates sexual fantasies in the mind it becomes an act of self indulgence. Such an act transforms persons in your mind form persons created in the image and likeness of God desrving of love and respect, into objects to be used for your own sexual gratification. When people are used for our own purposes, this is demeaning to the value of those persons. The problem can grow too. The more one uses other persons for gratification in their own sexual fantasies, the more likely one becomes to using to people for other purposes in their life. Friends are no longer people to be loved and respected but objects of entertainment. Family members becomes objects of use to alleviate the feeling of lonliness. Co-workers become objects of use for social or career oriented promotion. You see, people cease to become ends in themselves but simply means to ends and that is dehumanizing. Also, the more we pamper ourselves with sexual fantasies, the more we are unable to control our appetites, such as our appetites for sin. Thus we become more likely to fall to other sins. Finally, sex can be like a drug. The more we misuse it the more we want and need it. Sex is not bad, but an over agressive appetite for sex leads to pronography addictions, masturbations addictions, fornication, etc. So the more one feeds an over aggressive appetite for sex, the more likely one is to fall into sexual sin.

 

[Topher]

Orens, also, it is not the thinking and talking about sex that is bad, but the creating of sexual fantasies that is bad and lusting after other persons. The use of the sexual faculties, including the part of the mind that causes arousal, out side of marriage that is sinful. Read the late Holy Father’s work, theology of the body. This may be a good outlet for you. Furthermore, you should understand that fantasizing about sex is not psychologically healthy because of the reasons I mentioned in my previous post.

 

[YinYangMom]

Oren:

To the person who asked where I found that ‘thinking about sex’ is taught against by the Church, what I meant was the teaching against the sin of ‘lust’ all of that. If you want to argue that, or expand on your comment, fine.

I’m not even just talking about sex, it’s more just the feeling of oppression. I mean, I don’t mean to sound like some liberal progressive feminist or anything like that. I’m just speaking in terms of feeling like you can’t think what you want to. Honestly, I think it is damaging, psychologically. I know I’m going to get blasted for saying that. But I’m someone who grew up ‘secularly’ with no religion. Now, I don’t think that being completely free with sexuality is good. I don’t think we should go and have sex out of marriage. I don’t think anything like that. But when I became Catholic, it was too hard for me to feel guilty about something I never felt guilty about before, I’m speaking of fantasizing, and I’ve never gotten a good explanation of why I’m supposed to feel guilty about it. I haven’t had sex, I don’t go out cruising bars, fantasizing has never made me want to do anything of the kind. So why is it wrong? I’ve seen people say that it leads to action like that, but it doesn’t and has never in my case. So what’s the argument then?

About all of the people speaking about, how it’s the best to save it for marriage etc. Well, aren’t you saving it for marriage if you never have sex? I’ve heard the whole objectification thing hundreds of times. And while I understand the argument, I just don’t see it happening. At least not in my mind or my situation. I don’t think less of anyone because I fantasize about them. Besides which I never do about anyone I know. Why is it objectification?

The teaching about ‘lust’ came directly from Jesus. If you have an issue with it, talk to Him.

Matthew 5:27-28
27"You have heard that it was said, ‘YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY’;

28but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

The Church is here to preserve, protect and disseminate Christ’s teachings until He comes again, with the Apostle Paul putting the teaching to writing:

Romans 6:10-14 (emphasis mine)
10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Here’s the thing…
if you really want to understand what the church’s teaching is about sex/lust read Christopher West’s books…if you don’t want to read them, you can listen to his seminars on CD. For $4 you can have the 10 CD set of “Naked Without Shame: A Crash Course in the Theology of the Body” mailed to your home. You will find that the Church teachings are not oppressive at all, but rather liberating - especially for women.

Better yet, check his website to see if he’s speaking in an area near you and go listen to him, ask questions.

Right now your questions seem more like objections and it appears you half wanna know the truth, but not really. When you really want the Truth, Christopher West is a great start. So is Jason Evert at the Pure Love Club (though he speaks more about chastity before marriage and not so much about the lust part). You can hear Jason’s talk on “Romance Without Regret” online by following the link I gave to the Pure Love Club website.

 

[YinYangMom]

Oren:

I’ve heard the whole objectification thing hundreds of times. And while I understand the argument, I just don’t see it happening. At least not in my mind or my situation. I don’t think less of anyone because I fantasize about them. Besides which I never do about anyone I know. Why is it objectification?

It’s a matter of dignity for the total person: mind, body, soul.

The person you are fantasizing about does not belong to you.
If the person is married, he belongs to another woman.
If the person is single, he may be committed to another woman, and you are violating that relationship.
If the person is single and available you are disrespecting his person, his body by imagining lewd acts with it.

Worse yet, is you are developing and nurturing a view toward people as objects. Once the habit is developed then when you are in a real relationship it’s difficult to turn off and you find yourselve fantasizing about your husband in lustful ways which demean him.

I honestly don’t know who struggles more as singles - men who think about objective sex 24/7 or women whose hormones bring on objective sex thoughts one week per month. But in either case, the hormones creating the desire are given to us by God to create life, not destroy it. When we succumb to those desires we destroy our own minds, hearts and souls - and those of the people we pull into our fantasies and actions.

The call is for us to keep focus on the purpose of all of God’s gifts, including that for sex. When viewed in the proper order the desire to use others or oneself doesn’t even come up anymore. We become free from the law because we understand, appreciate and accept the spirit of the law. That’s how the Church teachings move from being viewed as '“oppressive” to “liberating” - through wisdom, understanding and grace.

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

Two things:

1. Purposefully seeking sexual pleasures (caused by thoughts, actions, etc) without being in a marital act is misusing the gift of sexuality and could be anywhere from a venial to a mortal sin. Even if you are thinking about someone you love, if you are doing it for your own pleasure, you are not doing it out of love for them. (Big clue: The other person has no clue and isn’t even there!).
2. The Church gives us rules lovingly, not to limit us but to guide us. Paradoxically, these rules give us more freedom.
   We have the gift of intelligence, but even so, our intelligence is limited. These rules help us know what is harmful to us and God. Lemme see, here’s an analogy. If you had a red pill and a blue pill and you knew one would harm you and the other would help you get better, wouldn’t you like to know which was which so you could make a better decision?
   Although the principles of moral law are written in the conscience of every man (Catechism), these guidelines help clarify any doubts etc.

 

[cynic]

lifeisbeautiful:

Two things:

1. Purposefully seeking sexual pleasures (caused by thoughts, actions, etc) without being in a marital act is misusing the gift of sexuality and could be anywhere from a venial to a mortal sin. Even if you are thinking about someone you love, if you are doing it for your own pleasure, you are not doing it out of love for them. (Big clue: The other person has no clue and isn’t even there!).

.

why? if the desire in the fantasies involve pleasing your husband or wife then what is wrong them. So what if it’s seeking pleasure from these thoughts outside the act? Why is that wrong. What about thougths during the act, you have to think about it before you do it, is that ‘objectifying’ aswell.

 

[cynic]

YinYangMom:

Worse yet, is you are developing and nurturing a view toward people as objects. Once the habit is developed then when you are in a real relationship it’s difficult to turn off and you find yourselve fantasizing about your husband in lustful ways which demean him.

I

.

and there is no such thing as fantasising without lusting?

 

[YinYangMom]

cynic:

why? if the desire in the fantasies involve pleasing your husband or wife then what is wrong them. So what if it’s seeking pleasure from these thoughts outside the act? Why is that wrong. What about thougths during the act, you have to think about it before you do it, is that ‘objectifying’ aswell.

It’s a matter of the heart. If the desires are rightly ordered, in that when married couples (especially when separated due to job which require one or the other to spend nights away from home) do reflect upon their desires to be one, physically, it is in the glory of God and within the marital covenant they are in. That, would be desire in God’s plan for them and offered as prayer for their marriage. It would not be lust. They aren’t brought about in order to seek pleasure outside the act, they are more reflections, memories, longings for the safe return of the other so they can reaffirm their love.

Lust would be when one fantasizes intimate relations with the other in situations that are not part of their love and marriage (if one is projecting what they saw in an erotic movie superimposing the spouse where the actor/actress was, kind of thing). That would be lust and totally disrespectful of the spouse. Another example would be if one fanticizes the spouse doing acts within the marital embrace they know the spouse would never be comfortable doing and/or are not in line with Church teaching.

If either the desireous or lustful fantasies are conjured up specifically to induce arousal and sexual pleasure for the one doing the conjuring then that is definitely under the realm of adultery because it is self directed, self serving and cuts God out of the whole situation.

 

[cynic]

so sexual pleasure is ok as long as it isn’t sought after or thought about. Incidental. Uh hu. Thing is everything is self focused, if I get satisfaction/pleasure from thoughts of making my wife happy, then those thoughts still make me feel good, hence you could argue that ulitimately they are selfish. Assuming so, why is that even a bad thing.

 

[YinYangMom]

cynic:

so sexual pleasure is ok as long as it isn’t sought after or thought about. Incidental. Uh hu. Thing is everything is self focused, if I get satisfaction/pleasure from thoughts of making my wife happy, then those thoughts still make me feel good, hence you could argue that ulitimately they are selfish. Assuming so, why is that even a bad thing.

Look at the words you choose -

thoughts
satisfaction
pleasure

all directed toward your wife and resulting in your ‘feeling good’

…I take it, by you feeling good, you mean about your wife, your marriage, your decision to choose her, the blessing in her ‘yes’, your dreams of your future with her together…

those are all ‘in right order’ for the covenant of the marriage. These, I imagine, would come from fond remembrances of prior embraces, and anticipation of future embraces. Again, ‘in right order’ toward the covenant of marriage. You can feel ‘good’ without becoming sexually aroused to the point of having to do something about it…more along the level of a good passionate kiss with your wife, where it acts as anticipation toward your next union.

Where you would cross the line is if you purposely draw your mind to these memories primarily to ‘get you going’ and possibly ‘see yourself through’ a climax when your wife is not present with you. If the intent of conjuring up images of your beloved spouse is only to act as a stimulant toward self-gratifcation then that’s wrong, especially if you carry out the physical part of that gratification.

 

[cynic]

YinYangMom:

more along the level of a good passionate kiss with your wife, where it acts as anticipation toward your next union.

.

It’s surprises me that you even think this would be acceptable.

 

[Oren]

lol@cynic. I know what you mean. It’s so ridiculous, you can think about this but not about that and this situation is ok but not that one. jeez. I’m sorry, but it’s frustrating! Not to mention confusing. I’ve tried to police my thoughts, but it was too stressful. I’ll try to read theology of the body…maybe it’ll help. I want to be in line with Catholicism…I do think it is right…and I really do think I’d be happy if I could live the right way. I just don’t understand why it is bad. I mean I’ve tried to just do it, without understanding, but it never works. The closest I can come to explaining it to myself, is that it is destructive, not creative. In some way. I can feel that’s right at times.

But ok, here’s an example of some of what I’m getting at. I don’t see how looking at pictures of guys (not naked pictures) but just say some actor or singer you think is hot, is wrong? Just seeing how they’re beautiful…is that wrong?? Does it go under the category of ‘temptation’? Cuz I just think if I didn’t do that, my life would feel really berreft of beauty.

 

[YinYangMom]

cynic:

It’s surprises me that you even think this would be acceptable.

Hey, it’s not me…I’m not making this stuff up.
I’ve read Church teaching.
I’ve listened to Christopher West’s Naked Without Shame
I’ve listened to his Marriage and the Eucharist
I’ve listened to Fr. Corapi
They all are sharing the good news about love, sex, and marriage as it was intended to be in the beginning and how it can still be today.

It took me quite a while to come to understand and accept the teachings, but I’ll tell you…after 19 years of marriage to a wonderful man, once we started living our marriage this way, WOW…it has made a world of a difference for our relationship.

 

[Fidelis]

Grace, not guilt!-----------------
1 Corinthians 10:13
No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your strength, but with the temptation will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.--------------------
Many people struggling with temptation are faced with a double burden. They not only struggle against the temptation itself, they also struggle with guilt for feeling tempted at all. “If I really loved God,” they say, “I wouldn’t feel this way and I wouldn’t be tempted.” Such people need to remember the church’s Tradition regarding what it calls “concupiscence.” Concupiscence is the weakness and inclination toward sin that remains with us even after original sin has been wiped away in baptism. It is like the trick knee that plagues us long after the successful surgery has repaired the injury. Concupiscence is not the injury itself, just the weakness that remains behind. Thus, the church tells us that concupiscence is not, of itself, sinful. Rather, it is a sort of “tinder for sin” that need not be set on fire if we ask for and receive the grace to resist the temptation. Indeed, our struggle against concupiscence is not only not sinful, it is actually an occasion of glory for us as we join the ranks (and receive the rewards) of those who “conquer” (Revelation 2:7, 11, 17, 26, 3:5, 12, 21). So don’t be burdened by guilt as you struggle against temptation. God knows your weakness and desires to help you, not harp at you. Moreover, God delights even in your failed attempts to honor and obey him. To all who struggle against concupiscence, he says, “Well done, thou good and faithful servant.” So turn to him and ask his help. He desires to give you grace, not guilt, for the struggle.

---

Just a Word of Encouragement
from Mark Shea & Jeff Cavins

catholicexchange.com/bday/index.html

 

[LovedOne]

I’ve also read Theology of the Body, Christopher West etc. and it really helped change my marriage.
But I am concerned about some getting to the point of being “scrupulous” when it comes to spouses desire and thoughts for each other.
We must keep in mind the true definition of “lust”. It is a disordered desire for another. Even your spouse.
What then would qualify as disordered?
That is the crux of the question.
To think about making love to your spouse during the day for instance (anticipating the marital embrace later that night) - even if it causes you to be aroused - does not necessarily constitute lust! Good grief - why would one look forward to something if it were merely just functional? God designed it to be pleasurable and as long as your thoughts are not soley on what is in it for YOU - but it is just as much the joy in being with and giving pleasure to your spouse - this is right and good.

There is a saying that “You know you are in trouble when you have to defend the obvious.”
I think the obvious here is that sex with our spouse was DESIGNED to bring about pleasure and good feelings - whether in the moment or in memory or in anticipation.
To deny this is - well denying the obvious.

 

[YinYangMom]

Oren:

But ok, here’s an example of some of what I’m getting at. I don’t see how looking at pictures of guys (not naked pictures) but just say some actor or singer you think is hot, is wrong? Just seeing how they’re beautiful…is that wrong?? Does it go under the category of ‘temptation’? Cuz I just think if I didn’t do that, my life would feel really berreft of beauty.

As someone earlier posted, looking at a picture of a guy and thinking 'Dang, he’s hot!" and moving on to another page or another task is not bad. It’s praising the good work of God.

It becomes temptation if you’re drawn to linger on that page and start up fantasies of you and that guy in intimate ways.

It’s a definite sin when two weeks later you intentionally seek out that same picture from that same magazine in order to conjure up the arousal/pleasure derived from fantasizing about that picture of the guy.

Try looking at the situation from the other person’s point of view - even though they aren’t aware of your fantasizing about them…if you were the object of someone else’s sexual fantasies wouldn’t you be creeped out a bit? Why? Because this person is a total stranger to you, yet he’s taking pictures of you, finding pictures of you, hanging outside your apartment, whatever - not because he ever intends to meet you face to face, but because there’s something about your ‘look’ which turns him on. It’s degrading to you to be viewed in that way, isn’t it? So if you don’t want anyone else objectifying you, why then would it be ok for you to objectify them?

Love your neighbor as yourself.

 

[YinYangMom]

LovedOne:

To think about making love to your spouse during the day for instance (anticipating the marital embrace later that night) - even if it causes you to be aroused - does not necessarily constitute lust! Good grief - why would one look forward to something if it were merely just functional? God designed it to be pleasurable and as long as your thoughts are not soley on what is in it for YOU - but it is just as much the joy in being with and giving pleasure to your spouse - this is right and good.

There is a saying that “You know you are in trouble when you have to defend the obvious.”
I think the obvious here is that sex with our spouse was DESIGNED to bring about pleasure and good feelings - whether in the moment or in memory or in anticipation.
To deny this is - well denying the obvious.

Isn’t that what I’ve been saying though? In right order is fine, when it is brought about for self-gratification only, it is no longer in right order.

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

LovedOne:

I’ve also read Theology of the Body, Christopher West etc. and it really helped change my marriage.
But I am concerned about some getting to the point of being “scrupulous” when it comes to spouses desire and thoughts for each other.
We must keep in mind the true definition of “lust”. It is a disordered desire for another. Even your spouse.
What then would qualify as disordered?
That is the crux of the question.
To think about making love to your spouse during the day for instance (anticipating the marital embrace later that night) - even if it causes you to be aroused - does not necessarily constitute lust! Good grief - why would one look forward to something if it were merely just functional? God designed it to be pleasurable and as long as your thoughts are not soley on what is in it for YOU - but it is just as much the joy in being with and giving pleasure to your spouse - this is right and good.

There is a saying that “You know you are in trouble when you have to defend the obvious.”
I think the obvious here is that sex with our spouse was DESIGNED to bring about pleasure and good feelings - whether in the moment or in memory or in anticipation.
To deny this is - well denying the obvious.

The catechism says:
“Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes.”

So I don’t think it is obvious. If you seek the memories etc because of how they make you feel (if they cause sexual pleasure) then it is morally disordered.